(Thread IKs:
dead gay comedy forums)
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can we please not turn this into another post about euphronius thread. we have multiples of those. one in this very subforum
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Jul 14, 2021 01:16
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| # ? May 26, 2024 05:46 |
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we're already on the euphronius page
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Jul 14, 2021 01:17
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indigi posted:can we please not turn this into another post about euphronius thread. we have multiples of those. one in this very subforum we do?
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Jul 14, 2021 01:17
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MSDOS KAPITAL posted:What is the utility in once again pressuring the bourgeois to buy off the working class? i mean, there's a reason they don't want to do it and have to be forced to. exerting pressure AS the working class is a lost art in the west, and it's worth it to throw a punch even if you expect your opponent to give ground rather than take it on the chin and collapse immediately
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Jul 14, 2021 01:23
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Office Pig posted:sure, man Spill ur take if you have something to say, don’t act like a bitch about it
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Jul 14, 2021 04:27
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Pener Kropoopkin posted:we're already on the euphronius page loving lmao
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Jul 14, 2021 18:14
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Office Pig posted:we do? The basketball thread is hilarious.
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Jul 14, 2021 18:16
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feel like I'm seeing more posts online from people saying they're socialist who imply it's good that Western governments didn't implement any sort of quarantine to control COVID. it's cool how the 600k+ dead in the US just don't matter now
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Jul 14, 2021 19:42
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Atrocious Joe posted:feel like I'm seeing more posts online from people saying they're socialist who imply it's good that Western governments didn't implement any sort of quarantine to control COVID. dead americans has never mattered but why do they think its good
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Jul 14, 2021 20:32
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Pener Kropoopkin posted:we're already on the euphronius page Ferrinus posted:i mean, there's a reason they don't want to do it and have to be forced to. exerting pressure AS the working class is a lost art in the west, and it's worth it to throw a punch even if you expect your opponent to give ground rather than take it on the chin and collapse immediately
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Jul 14, 2021 20:54
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MSDOS KAPITAL posted:god drat i mean every response capital makes to labor pressure is meant to dissolve the capability for mass action, that's the whole point. and, perniciously, those responses end up evolving capital even further than if it didn't have to make them, like the way the factory acts - which capitalists at the time moaned and cried about and were SURE would doom entire industries - ended up spurring technical innovations which pushed productivity even higher however, this process is part of capital generating its own gravediggers. there's no way to skip straight to the revolution part, and in fact being AGAINST medicare for all or whatever on the basis that it will merely pacify the workers is just going to lose you the workers. lenin said that revolutions happen when the people can't live in the old way and the rulers can't rule in the old way, and that'll be true whether or not it costs you money to see the dentist
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Jul 14, 2021 21:11
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Ferrinus posted:i mean every response capital makes to labor pressure is meant to dissolve the capability for mass action, that's the whole point. and, perniciously, those responses end up evolving capital even further than if it didn't have to make them, like the way the factory acts - which capitalists at the time moaned and cried about and were SURE would doom entire industries - ended up spurring technical innovations which pushed productivity even higher there is a push by a part of the ruling class to create a medicare for all program to lower costs for businesses. Last week I heard such a person on NPR advocate such a reason. there is nothing essentially against capital in having a medicare for all program but it goes against the rent seeking fire sector so it depends on who will prevail
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Jul 14, 2021 21:35
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Top City Homo posted:there is a push by a part of the ruling class to create a medicare for all program to lower costs for businesses. Last week I heard such a person on NPR advocate such a reason. yeah, if universal healthcare could end capitalism then canada wouldn't exist. but the same is true of basically every existing element of the welfare state. are these things good because they reflect coordinated working class power or bad because they're refinements that allow capitalism to continue? the answer is, it's not really helpful to think in those terms. they're just part of the feedback cycle via which capitalism develops. if marx is right, that cycle will eventually produce a subject with both the power and the will to destroy capitalism, but standing athwart that cycle isn't an option for anybody
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Jul 14, 2021 22:13
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Ferrinus posted:yeah, if universal healthcare could end capitalism then canada wouldn't exist. but the same is true of basically every existing element of the welfare state. are these things good because they reflect coordinated working class power or bad because they're refinements that allow capitalism to continue? the answer is, it's not really helpful to think in those terms. they're just part of the feedback cycle via which capitalism develops. if marx is right, that cycle will eventually produce a subject with both the power and the will to destroy capitalism, but standing athwart that cycle isn't an option for anybody welfare statism is a dialectic of organized labor fighting against a nascent capital and the state bureaucracy incorporating labor to guarantee stability. Its partially a state security issue where the state expands its citizenship to another segment of the population through a new institution. At that point its very difficult to roll back because citizenship is a fundamental legitimizing force for bougie republics. Without class power, the welfare state is sustained and expanded through elite noblesse oblige and the original class power push to create re distributive justice turns into a normative state operation rolled back or expanded as the state requires. I see "cancel culture" (this cringe term) as a way to legitimize the limit against expanding citizenship institutions to middle america by demonizing the rural areas as undemocratic, foreign barbarians unworthy of citizenship. we are already living in a very developed state monopoly capitalism (basically bougie socialism) as marx described it, but this is abstracted and obscured from the public sphere. On top of this incredible productive force sits a giant vampire squid ( the fire sector) and its siphoning everything to itself. I work as a supply chain and Enterprise Resource Management professional and the systems for communism already exist the planned economy is already here the relations of production have not caught up yet Top City Homo has issued a correction as of 22:31 on Jul 14, 2021 |
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Jul 14, 2021 22:28
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Top City Homo posted:I see "cancel culture" (this cringe term) as a way to legitimize the limit against expanding citizenship institutions to middle america by demonizing the rural areas as undemocratic, foreign barbarians unworthy of citizenship. and classically of course it's race that has done this work in america
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Jul 14, 2021 22:40
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I still think developments like the welfare state are more often than not geopolitically aligned than due to simply internal pressures inside a bourgeois-liberal state. During the 1970s, Latin America and Western Europe were both in the US' sphere but they had very different ways of managing themselves threats inside their own borders. Western Europe went in the direction of the welfare state simply rather than military autocracy to many of the mechanics of the Cold War and if anything existed both as a show piece illustration that "capitalism can work" to populations east of the iron curtain and to keep the issues within their own borders relatively under control. In Latin America, neither the US or local elites cared and they created near-fascist states that used open brutality (with a thin veneer of liberal institutions) to accomplish what they wanted.
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Jul 14, 2021 22:42
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croup coughfield posted:dead americans has never mattered but why do they think its good the lockdowns were just a way to stop protests as the capitalists consolidated their power I guess. https://twitter.com/ParentiSoundSys/status/1415341545612464131?s=20 https://twitter.com/the_hague_ICC/status/1415349972132839425?s=20 i thought the pandemic and first lockdowns led to an economic crisis, and like all capitalist economic crises it meant further consolidation of capital.
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Jul 14, 2021 22:56
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Ardennes posted:I still think developments like the welfare state are more often than not geopolitically aligned than due to simply internal pressures inside a bourgeois-liberal state. During the 1970s, Latin America and Western Europe were both in the US' sphere but they had very different ways of managing themselves threats inside their own borders. right but historically speaking, I am starting more from the point of Prussian social democracy and its fight for pensions, health care etc.
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Jul 14, 2021 23:18
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Ferrinus posted:and classically of course it's race that has done this work in america correct. Who deserves the protection of citizenship? African Americans under siege or rural american's in crumbling factory towns and rick snyder emergency manager autocracies? Pick one because you are either a racist or a class reductionist if you highlight one but not the other. that's what democratic party hacks would say
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Jul 14, 2021 23:22
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Ardennes posted:I still think developments like the welfare state are more often than not geopolitically aligned than due to simply internal pressures inside a bourgeois-liberal state. During the 1970s, Latin America and Western Europe were both in the US' sphere but they had very different ways of managing themselves threats inside their own borders. many of the great social-democratic parties of europe were well established by the end of the war. i think that the institutional development internally in these countries had as much or more to do with this stuff as cold war politics tbh
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Jul 14, 2021 23:26
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V. Illych L. posted:many of the great social-democratic parties of europe were well established by the end of the war. i think that the institutional development internally in these countries had as much or more to do with this stuff as cold war politics tbh They really didn't dig their teeth into serious reformism generally until after the war. There is a difference between a party existing and for institutional forces to allow it to actual start making changes to society. There was a Labour government during the 1920s...it accomplished almost nothing and moderated itself to the right almost instantly. It was only Atlee that started to get the ball rolling. France had only made the same shift in 1945 as well. quote:Following World War II, universal health care systems began to be set up around the world. On July 5, 1948, the United Kingdom launched its universal National Health Service. Universal health care was next introduced in the Nordic countries of Sweden (1955),[11] Iceland (1956),[12] Norway (1956),[13] Denmark (1961),[14] and Finland (1964).[15] Universal health insurance was introduced in Japan in 1961, and in Canada through stages, starting with the province of Saskatchewan in 1962, followed by the rest of Canada from 1968 to 1972.[9][16] I would say there is a pretty clear difference between the relative muted development of some reforms during the late 19th - early 20th century and the explosion of development that occurred during the post-war period. (Also, it is hard to separate Bismarck's reforms from the greater German nation-building project. The internal pressures in Germany weren't simply from worker agitation but from the very clear regional/religious divides that existed in Germany.) Ardennes has issued a correction as of 23:46 on Jul 14, 2021 |
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Jul 14, 2021 23:35
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V. Illych L. posted:many of the great social-democratic parties of europe were well established by the end of the war. i think that the institutional development internally in these countries had as much or more to do with this stuff as cold war politics tbh I forget the book I read about it in, it was assigned in college, but it talked about how in the immediate aftermath of the war in places like France, Italy, the Low Countries, etc. communists and anarchists were incredibly popular and beloved because they were the ones leading and manning resistance to fascist occupation (or collaborationist governments). a lot of US/UK resources were spent not only trying to undermine them, but prop up capital-friendly welfare reformers who were sort of popular-by-association cause they called themselves socialists and praised the partisans in vague terms, glossing over their ideological underpinnings
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Jul 15, 2021 00:08
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Atrocious Joe posted:posts online from people saying they're socialist identified the error
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Jul 15, 2021 05:50
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Pener Kropoopkin posted:we're already on the euphronius page lol
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Jul 15, 2021 13:17
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indigi posted:I forget the book I read about it in, it was assigned in college, but it talked about how in the immediate aftermath of the war in places like France, Italy, the Low Countries, etc. communists and anarchists were incredibly popular and beloved because they were the ones leading and manning resistance to fascist occupation (or collaborationist governments). a lot of US/UK resources were spent not only trying to undermine them, but prop up capital-friendly welfare reformers who were sort of popular-by-association cause they called themselves socialists and praised the partisans in vague terms, glossing over their ideological underpinnings for sure, the social democrats got much freer hands after the war for various reasons - in my country, the labour party pretty clearly made a deal with the americans that they'd be allowed to build a welfare state in return for NATO membership and crushing the communist party, for instance, but they were still a genuinely socialist party with a clear socialist agenda well into the seventies. the norwegian labour party was extremely popular in its own right for decades before the war as well, culminating in a pretty serious reformist government in the Nygaardsvold cabinet. the swedish welfare state also got seriously going as early as the thirties. in order for social-democratic compromise politics to be a preferred option, there needs to be a strong and credible soft left to begin with. if the labour party hadn't existed and hadn't had genuine mass support, there would've been no social-democratic shift. welfarism was not imposed from above; imagining that social democracy is an american invention to head off communist revolution is dramatically oversimplifying things. social democracy was a mass ideology with which the americans could negotiate and which they had to tolerate, because trying to crush it would have led to communist revolution as the labour movements radicalised. a lot of this also has to do with the sheer number of incredibly lucrative investments available after the war, and the relative disarray of national bourgeois forces compared to the level of worker organisation. in britain, it was increasingly obvious that the homecoming soldiers needed places to live, and the place had been under a command economy for years at that point. a period of keynesian surplus coinciding with a high point of mobilisation for one side and a low point for the other means that things change. remember, the socialist parties of the post-WW1 period were totally discredited by their enthusiasm for the war in its early stages. oversimplifying this sort of thing to geopolitical machinations is underestimating and misunderstanding ordinary people imo. the social democrats weren't popular because people confused them and the communists, the debates over the moscow theses had been ongoing for decades at this point. they were popular because they were a vehicle through which the proletariat could, locally, abolish itself.
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Jul 15, 2021 13:39
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Ardennes posted:They really didn't dig their teeth into serious reformism generally until after the war. There is a difference between a party existing and for institutional forces to allow it to actual start making changes to society. I don't disagree with you but a notable exception to this was the weimar republic. Sure it was created specifically to crush the communist insurgents but it also embodied the SPDs ideological project of 'perfecting' parliamentary democracy. Of course, we all know how that turned out
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Jul 15, 2021 17:38
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https://twitter.com/VIC_20/status/1415785637597237249?s=20
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Jul 15, 2021 23:55
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Dreddout posted:I don't disagree with you but a notable exception to this was the weimar republic. Yeah, but if anything it shows both the duress the German state was under and also that it was clear that keeping the old system around in its current form wouldn't work because it had lost so much legitimacy. The Republic was a "compromise" that satisfied liberals and social democrats but in reality only delayed the showdown until later. A big part of it was that Germany was plunging into a genuine revolutionary situation and the situation if anything was too unstable for a more centralized regime to develop because public support turned had so hard in the other direction in late 1918. Ardennes has issued a correction as of 00:16 on Jul 16, 2021 |
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Jul 16, 2021 00:11
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I can't wait for revolution to come so I can get my dream job of debating theory all day.
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Jul 16, 2021 00:58
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Jul 16, 2021 02:37
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Chuka Umana posted:I can't wait for revolution to come so I can get my dream job of debating theory all day. all the years posting entire paragraphs on social media will finally pay off
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Jul 16, 2021 06:56
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so what’s going on in Cuba
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Jul 16, 2021 08:23
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indigi posted:so what’s going on in Cuba the cuban people are crying out for liberal democracy and privatization!
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Jul 16, 2021 08:27
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Guantanamo Bay commanding officer my people yearn for freedom
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Jul 16, 2021 08:31
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the poor Cuban people are looking at all the freedoms poor people worldwide enjoy under capitalism and saying yes please sign me up
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Jul 16, 2021 11:13
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yr new gurlfrand! posted:the poor Cuban people are looking at all the freedoms poor people worldwide enjoy under capitalism and saying yes please sign me up free from employment, free from safe streets, free from health care, free from social security, and a free falling economy
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Jul 16, 2021 11:26
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freedom from social bonds, freedom to invest in bonds
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Jul 16, 2021 12:02
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indigi posted:a lot of US/UK resources were spent not only trying to undermine them, but prop up capital-friendly welfare reformers who were sort of popular-by-association cause they called themselves socialists and praised the partisans in vague terms, glossing over their ideological underpinnings boy am i glad things are different now !!
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Jul 16, 2021 13:15
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these days most of them don't even call themselves socialists but "leftists"
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Jul 16, 2021 14:01
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| # ? May 26, 2024 05:46 |
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indigi posted:so what’s going on in Cuba after scanning various news sources, my best read is that the main driver of the protests is probably shortages and power blackouts. there's also some grievances being aired against how the cuban government generally handles dissent. but these grievances and these protests are being cynically exploited and amplified by foreign state powers interested in regime change. seems pretty rough for the people. what's an unsatisfied cuban to do? if they suck it up, their grievances may not be taken seriously. they protest, then the US through its proxies and tendrils will be there to fan the flames with the intent of toppling their government and making serfs of them all. I don't envy their position
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Jul 16, 2021 14:24
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