(Thread IKs:
fart simpson)
|
poo poo you could probably stick an RC transmitter in a bunch of old IL-2's and P-51s then put modern rocket packs on them and they'd be a cheaper more efficient ground attack craft than the loving goatrope we have gone through to get the F-35 gurgling into action
|
|
#
?
Jul 16, 2021 17:32
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 26, 2024 15:51 |
|
|
the virgin fighter jet vs. the chad drone swarm
|
|
#
?
Jul 16, 2021 17:52
|
|
|
china should stage one of those massive drone light shows celebrating the 100th anniversary of the party near the f22 exercise
|
|
#
?
Jul 16, 2021 17:53
|
|
|
Lady Militant posted:poo poo you could probably stick an RC transmitter in a bunch of old IL-2's and P-51s then put modern rocket packs on them and they'd be a cheaper more efficient ground attack craft than the loving goatrope we have gone through to get the F-35 gurgling into action they could have bought 40,000 F-16s for their f-35s and had more planes than the worldwide stockpile of SAMs.
|
|
#
?
Jul 16, 2021 18:03
|
|
|
I think we are all forgetting that the F-35 program is designed to get money into the pockets of the ruling class rather than produce an airplane or something.
|
|
#
?
Jul 16, 2021 18:31
|
|
|
Hey since the US won't do it who do I have to talk to in china to get laser tanks made We can make them
|
|
#
?
Jul 16, 2021 18:34
|
|
|
Lady Militant posted:poo poo you could probably stick an RC transmitter in a bunch of old IL-2's and P-51s then put modern rocket packs on them and they'd be a cheaper more efficient ground attack craft than the loving goatrope we have gone through to get the F-35 gurgling into action A lot of countries still use prop planes for exactly this kind of role, especially for jungle fighting.
|
|
#
?
Jul 16, 2021 20:44
|
|
|
AnimeIsTrash posted:https://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-china-57780023 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6eh2B-g3owY brugroffil posted:We could have had this big, beautiful boy Lostconfused posted:I think we are all forgetting that the F-35 program is designed to get money into the pockets of the ruling class rather than produce an airplane or something. another thing, there are there versions. one for the air force, for the marines, and for the navy. the marines wanted it to take off and land vertically because they were traumatized by being cut off by the japanese fleet at guadalcanal back in the 40s. the navy wants it to take off from carriers. the air force wants one to take off from runways. and the pentagon wants it to be stealthy, which is not so bad, but that adds on a lot costs. but the idea behind making a single airframe in three "versions" with differences was sold as being cheaper, since they share many of the same parts. but this forces all kinds of compromises. the marine version needs a lift fan, so the plane has to be shaped a certain way. this is why it looks chubby, and doesn't maneuver as well as the F-16. that also means the navy and air force versions, which don't have a lift fan, might as well act like it does because of the basic airframe design. and why would the marines need a stealthy planes anyways? they would be using it for air support on islands. nothing about it makes sense but it burns tons of money and that's good for lockheed martin and their many contractors. war? what is it good for? "IBM, AT&T, newsweek, CNN..."
|
|
#
?
Jul 16, 2021 21:16
|
|
|
Lady Militant posted:poo poo you could probably stick an RC transmitter in a bunch of old IL-2's and P-51s then put modern rocket packs on them and they'd be a cheaper more efficient ground attack craft than the loving goatrope we have gone through to get the F-35 gurgling into action China converted some old jets (J5 J6 J7? I don't remember) into unmanned planes and stationed some in frontier airports during the Sino-India conflict last year.
|
|
#
?
Jul 16, 2021 21:56
|
|
|
Lostconfused posted:I think we are all forgetting that the F-35 program is designed to get money into the pockets of the ruling class rather than produce an airplane or something. The irony is they pushed it so far they legitimately are now hamstringing the capacities of the US military.
|
|
#
?
Jul 16, 2021 22:48
|
|
|
Ardennes posted:The irony is they pushed it so far they legitimately are now hamstringing the capacities of the US military. Strictly speaking we don't know if they did. After all, between drones and missiles even good planes might not be of much use.
|
|
#
?
Jul 16, 2021 22:58
|
|
|
genericnick posted:Strictly speaking we don't know if they did. After all, between drones and missiles even good planes might not be of much use. Stealth fighters (combat ready ones at least) are designed to get around missile systems, and today's drones are not anywhere near the capacities ready to take on actual fighters. I don't think the US is actual vulnerable, but it is also becoming apparent that many of the offensive capabilities of our military have been stunted. Also, while the US has been screwing around, China and Russia have clearly been coming more competent. (Btw, we could easily still bomb a country like Cuba to smithereens, I am talking about other powers.) It isn't just the Air force, but the Navy as well has been having its own issues. Also, the US army is also in a weird position since it has been pushed so down the road of counter-insurgency. I actually don't think it is a situation where more money can help because the issues from planning and corruption not a lack of resources. Ardennes has issued a correction as of 23:35 on Jul 16, 2021 |
|
#
?
Jul 16, 2021 23:32
|
|
|
yeah but can a fighter take on 12 drones at once
|
|
#
?
Jul 16, 2021 23:38
|
|
|
indigi posted:yeah but can a fighter take on 12 drones at once The drones wouldn't be able to reach or catch the fighter. The most advanced Chinese combat drone prototype goes about 628 mph while an f-16 can go around 1300 mph. Also, if you are at the point, you are designing a drone that has the capabilities of an actual fighter then it is probably going to not be that much cheaper. Ardennes has issued a correction as of 23:57 on Jul 16, 2021 |
|
#
?
Jul 16, 2021 23:54
|
|
|
Ardennes posted:The drones wouldn't be able to reach or catch the fighter. so no
|
|
#
?
Jul 16, 2021 23:57
|
|
|
indigi posted:so no No, in the sense, they would not be able to take on a modern fighter because it would simply zip over them.
|
|
#
?
Jul 16, 2021 23:59
|
|
|
Do china and russia have a "sexiness" component to their weapons procurement like the US?
|
|
#
?
Jul 17, 2021 00:18
|
|
|
Ardennes posted:The drones wouldn't be able to reach or catch the fighter. The most advanced Chinese combat drone prototype goes about 628 mph while an f-16 can go around 1300 mph. i mean, drones have missiles. there's no point in going faster, just use that
|
|
#
?
Jul 17, 2021 00:30
|
|
|
Truga posted:i mean, drones have missiles. there's no point in going faster, just use that They also have much higher service ceilings. Basically, if you want a drone to fight fighters...it is going to look like a fighter without a cockpit. You really can't cheat your way around needs of an aircraft at a certain point. We may see demonstrators in the not too future where they just retrofit an existing plane with cameras. The pilot flying a drone fighter would still have issues with combat awareness but would gain the ability to conduct high-g maneuvers that would knock out a human pilot. Ardennes has issued a correction as of 00:38 on Jul 17, 2021 |
|
#
?
Jul 17, 2021 00:33
|
|
|
just make one big drone that farts out a bunch of little baby drones with M80s that get sucked into the jet intake
|
|
#
?
Jul 17, 2021 00:39
|
|
|
Ardennes posted:The drones wouldn't be able to reach or catch the fighter. The most advanced Chinese combat drone prototype goes about 628 mph while an f-16 can go around 1300 mph. The Chinese high speed UAV premiered on 70th national day parade supposedly can go over Mach 3
|
|
#
?
Jul 17, 2021 00:50
|
|
|
gradenko_2000 posted:the fatal flaw with the F-22 is that all the tooling was crated-up and locked away so there's presumably very little in the way of spare parts and no new production anymore Hurricane-Battered F-22s Are Now Flying Out of Michael's Aftermath Those planes took only light damage and were back up and flying in a few days.
|
|
#
?
Jul 17, 2021 01:17
|
|
|
stephenthinkpad posted:The Chinese high speed UAV premiered on 70th national day parade supposedly can go over Mach 3 It still doesn’t mean it has the capabilities of a fighter. They look the way they do for a reason. OhFunny posted:Hurricane-Battered F-22s Are Now Flying Out of Michael's Aftermath There seems to be some tension in the story since supposedly those aircraft weren’t able to fly in the first. Maybe the healing winds of the storm fixed them... or they just cannibalized other f-22s to get the story out? Ardennes has issued a correction as of 01:43 on Jul 17, 2021 |
|
#
?
Jul 17, 2021 01:36
|
|
|
OhFunny posted:Hurricane-Battered F-22s Are Now Flying Out of Michael's Aftermath why are they keeping sensitive military hardware in a place a hurricane can get at it
|
|
#
?
Jul 17, 2021 02:06
|
|
|
LittleBlackCloud posted:Do china and russia have a "sexiness" component to their weapons procurement like the US? probably https://twitter.com/CovertShores/status/1415929850045648899
|
|
#
?
Jul 17, 2021 02:08
|
|
|
All this talk of fighters is kinda odd. Would most fighters (especially the f-22 given it's limited numbers) be relatively neutered by various types of AA/smacking their faces off other fighters within the first couple of days of a hot war? It's also dumb because there won't be any hot war, it's all dumb clancy bullshit.
|
|
#
?
Jul 17, 2021 02:12
|
|
|
This Russian single-engine look alot like the Chinese J31 prototype. I thought the 31 won't be brought by the PLAA but I heard rumor its getting a major revision. If this Russian plane is carrier ready, they can make a lot of money off the Indians.
|
|
#
?
Jul 17, 2021 02:26
|
|
|
stephenthinkpad posted:This Russian single-engine look alot like the Chinese J31 prototype. I thought the 31 won't be brought by the PLAA but I heard rumor its getting a major revision. It is a lot slimmer than the f-35, the lightning is a big old boy. fatelvis posted:All this talk of fighters is kinda odd. Would most fighters (especially the f-22 given it's limited numbers) be relatively neutered by various types of AA/smacking their faces off other fighters within the first couple of days of a hot war? It is about the limits of projection. Russian air power did in fact make a difference in Syria.
|
|
#
?
Jul 17, 2021 03:04
|
|
|
Truga posted:i mean, drones have missiles. there's no point in going faster, just use that Shooting a missile from a bad position (such as being at lower altitude then your target) means your missile has less energy for maneuver because it is losing speed (and thus energy) from having to climb up. This makes it more susceptible to the target's evasive maneuvers even before ECM and other countermeasures kick in. Also it should be noted that a drone that has the capability to fight fighter planes will inevitably end up being as, if not more, expensive because in order to match or exceed the performance of a fighter jet the drone will be utilizing the form, materials, technology, and labor used in making fighter jets. You get what you pay for all intents and purposes. Turkish TB-2s for example are "cheap" at about $5 million per unit, which is a nice price point in comparison to American MQ-9s and their $32 million price per unit. However the TB-2 is slower than the MQ-9, cruises slower, has less range, has flies lower, etc. Thus while you can have more TB-2s than MQ-9s given a set budget, the systems are less able to respond to sudden developments and are relatively more vulnerable to air defense than their MQ-9 counterparts. Ardennes posted:Stealth fighters (combat ready ones at least) are designed to get around missile systems, and today's drones are not anywhere near the capacities ready to take on actual fighters. I don't think the US is actual vulnerable, but it is also becoming apparent that many of the offensive capabilities of our military have been stunted. Also, while the US has been screwing around, China and Russia have clearly been coming more competent. (Btw, we could easily still bomb a country like Cuba to smithereens, I am talking about other powers.) The counter-insurgency focus of the US military is reflected more in operational and tactical habits than in gear procurement if anything. Running ships constantly without rest, clustering up bases instead of dispersing, and assuming that airpower is always on call for close air support, etc. It's definitely not something that can't be regenerated but that takes time and requires the political elite to assume that they will be fighting a conventional war with a peer power rather than being able to keep pressing the boot down on their neocolonies on a threadbare state budget.
|
|
#
?
Jul 17, 2021 04:36
|
|
|
I don't know how we got on this UAV topic, but I don't think making drone going one on one with F35 is where the industry is going. I think the current trend is making swrmp of cheap and small drones that can casually destroy ground targets. In other words, the technology is focusing on short distance land wars, not high level contact between superpowers. But I have no doubt drone will get there soon.
|
|
#
?
Jul 17, 2021 04:45
|
|
|
Even if an air superiority drone could cost as much as a manned fighter, it's still worth it because you're not putting the pilot at risk. There's a lot of cost sunk into training and paying the officers who fly those loving things, and there's no chance of them being taken prisoner from a drone control center. I reckon the really big hurdle is input lag.
|
|
#
?
Jul 17, 2021 04:53
|
|
|
Danann posted:The counter-insurgency focus of the US military is reflected more in operational and tactical habits than in gear procurement if anything. Running ships constantly without rest, clustering up bases instead of dispersing, and assuming that airpower is always on call for close air support, etc. It's definitely not something that can't be regenerated but that takes time and requires the political elite to assume that they will be fighting a conventional war with a peer power rather than being able to keep pressing the boot down on their neocolonies on a threadbare state budget. Yeah I don’t think they are on the same path as the Navy and Air Force where procurement is as much an issue but from what I heard is that maintaince is still an issue. Also, I think the army’s new LAV is very much a vehicle designed for the last war. It is big and bulky enough to automatically be considered a target but not armored enough to eat any serious AT ordnance. Pener Kropoopkin posted:Even if an air superiority drone could cost as much as a manned fighter, it's still worth it because you're not putting the pilot at risk. There's a lot of cost sunk into training and paying the officers who fly those loving things, and there's no chance of them being taken prisoner from a drone control center. There is still going to need to be a lot of training though and drone pilots still get PTSD. I would say the other issue is jamming and also losing the type of edge that comes with being in the situation itself (including literally the adrenaline rush). I think there will be at least an attempt at it but I could also see any drone craft also working with human pilots to try to take advantage of each platform. A drone could be a useful disrupter craft pulling high g maneuvers to stress out their opponents while the human pilots clean up.
|
|
#
?
Jul 17, 2021 05:57
|
|
|
stephenthinkpad posted:I don't know how we got on this UAV topic, but I don't think making drone going one on one with F35 is where the industry is going. I think the current trend is making swrmp of cheap and small drones that can casually destroy ground targets. The Bayraktar TB2 has a wingspan equivalent to a P-47 thunderbolt and the new Bayraktar Akinci are equivalent in length and with a larger wingspan. The munitions used by the TB2 and the Akinci are also pricy, with the lowest cost guided rockets starting at ~$20,000.WRT cost, with the TB2 starting at around $5 million it is very likely that the new Akinci will exceed that figure. If anything, the trend is that UCAVs are getting bigger and increasing in capability, and with it increased cost. Furthermore, issues that plague large drones also disproportionately affect smaller, cheap drones. While electronic warfare will hamper big drones, off-the-shelf GPS jammers can hamper small drone operation to the point they fall out of the sky. Even getting a single small drone, much less a swarm, to fly into the air can be a challenge due to low reliability. Pener Kropoopkin posted:Even if an air superiority drone could cost as much as a manned fighter, it's still worth it because you're not putting the pilot at risk. There's a lot of cost sunk into training and paying the officers who fly those loving things, and there's no chance of them being taken prisoner from a drone control center. Ardennes posted:There is still going to need to be a lot of training though and drone pilots still get PTSD. Electronic warfare is the first likely method that takes out drone forces by forcing them to RTB in the best case scenario. Typical stuff that attrits air forces also apply to drones, in other words bad weather can knock out or make drones inoperable just as it makes human-crewed planes inoperable. Then there's the various killy stuff such as artillery rounds with the drone controller's name on it all the way to your favorite air-defense/air-to-air method of applied drone destruction. Ardennes posted:Yeah I don’t think they are on the same path as the Navy and Air Force where procurement is as much an issue but from what I heard is that maintaince is still an issue. Eh that Pentagon Wars criticism is fundamentally flawed because it ignores how being able ignore small arms, shrapnel, and heavy machine gun fire is. This basically means that the vehicle would be able to calmly perform overwatch against the vast majority of enemy combatants it engages alongside its infantry and other friendly elements. The other aspect is that it ignores how passive protection (and active these days) is not the only way to protect such ground vehicles. Destruction and suppression of enemy anti tank teams and armor is just as valid in protecting ground vehicles especially since it's relatively easier to narrow down where those threats are in comparison to the more numerous small arms armed infantry and their weapons teams.
|
|
#
?
Jul 17, 2021 07:32
|
|
|
Ardennes posted:It still doesn’t mean it has the capabilities of a fighter. They look the way they do for a reason. They couldn't fly out because they were undergoing maintenance. Which a very long three-week process. This raises the question of it's ability to sustain long term combat operations, but that's a different discussion. You're conflating the inability to produce more with there being no spare parts and/or maintenance machines. Which is not true. These are held by 574th Aircraft Maintenance Squadron. indigi posted:why are they keeping sensitive military hardware in a place a hurricane can get at it No Cat5 hurricane has ever hit the Florida Panhandle before. Climate change is going to do serious damage to military installations that were in previously safe spots.
|
|
#
?
Jul 17, 2021 07:39
|
|
|
Danann posted:Eh that Pentagon Wars criticism is fundamentally flawed because it ignores how being able ignore small arms, shrapnel, and heavy machine gun fire is. This basically means that the vehicle would be able to calmly perform overwatch against the vast majority of enemy combatants it engages alongside its infantry and other friendly elements. The other aspect is that it ignores how passive protection (and active these days) is not the only way to protect such ground vehicles. Destruction and suppression of enemy anti tank teams and armor is just as valid in protecting ground vehicles especially since it's relatively easier to narrow down where those threats are in comparison to the more numerous small arms armed infantry and their weapons teams. I was talking about the JTLV in particular which is an awkward compromise between a utility vehicle and an actual LAV. I don’t see how it is going to be able to protect these vehicles on a hostile battlefield considering they are supposed to replace the Humvee. I don''t see these things lasting too long in Ukraine. Also I don’t think that is a fair criticism btw, the Bradley was suppose to be a better m113 and was armored enough for that duty. The problem was trying to make it into essentially a light tank and you ended up with a awkward compromise. There is a reason it was quietly pulled from frontline service in 2007. As for the Stryker it is fine for what it is I guess, but I am less sure how useful a Stryker BCT is going to be against an enemy that can fight back. It really depends if you want an army designed around light occupation duties or one that is supposed to fight competitive militaries. Obviously, the US army still has the M1 and heavy lift capabilities, but the question is if you are essentially going to need pretty radically different forces. OhFunny posted:They couldn't fly out because they were undergoing maintenance. Which a very long three-week process. This raises the question of it's ability to sustain long term combat operations, but that's a different discussion. Out of the 187 F-22 built, by 2018, only 123 were combat operational and 20 were being used for spare parts. If anything the situation right now is even worse since there is now a lack of staff qualified to work on it. The F-22 is slowly being pushed out the door. Ardennes has issued a correction as of 09:24 on Jul 17, 2021 |
|
#
?
Jul 17, 2021 08:07
|
|
|
First Lady, that is DOCTOR Cosby.
|
|
#
?
Jul 17, 2021 09:17
|
|
|
Isn't the main problem of F22 is that the design was so old they couldn't upgrade the electronic communication?
|
|
#
?
Jul 17, 2021 11:40
|
|
|
Ardennes posted:drone pilots still get PTSD. the brain is such a stupid computer
|
|
#
?
Jul 17, 2021 12:27
|
|
|
Paquiao bit more than he could chew and got kicked out of the party leader position. Do not speak ill of Philippines Trump or China, you will regret it!
|
|
#
?
Jul 17, 2021 12:44
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 26, 2024 15:51 |
|
|
Ardennes posted:There is still going to need to be a lot of training though and drone pilots still get PTSD. Drone pilots get PTSD because they track and monitor their targets for hours at a time, and then when the command comes down to blow them up they get to watch the human beings they've become familiarized with get torn apart by their own hand. Piloting a fighter plane doing dogfights is completely different.
|
|
#
?
Jul 17, 2021 14:01
|
|