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They’d also get sailors drunk n whored up, then they wake up on board having “chosen” to sign on. Like even now it loving sucks to be on a ship. One goes a bit crazy (to full on bat poo poo crazy.) Merchant sailors thought the Royal Navy was even worse than just normal sailing (and it was).
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Jul 18, 2021 02:19
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The press routinely took foreign seamen illegally. The theoretical right to petition an admiralty court did little good to a monoglot Danish seaman picked up off the Azores by a British man o war headed to Singapore.
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Jul 18, 2021 02:23
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Arglebargle III posted:The press routinely took foreign seamen illegally. The theoretical right to petition an admiralty court did little good to a monoglot Danish seaman picked up off the Azores by a British man o war headed to Singapore. Hence the origin of the term "shanghaied." A dude would get drugged in a bar in a port, and would wake up in Shanghai (a metaphor for "far from home with no hope of return").
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Jul 18, 2021 02:27
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One point that is relevant to the discussion of Roman recruitment of sailors is the fact that rowing an ancient war galley was actually very complicated. Movies like Ben-Hur portray manning a war galley as a matter of mindlessly pulling an oar, but this is not at all the case. Ramming another ship was actually a fairly delicate maneuver, since if you hit the other ship with too much force, or in the wrong way, you could damage your own ship and get it stuck. A great deal of skill from the oarsmen was required to effectively pull off ramming maneuvers, which incentivized navies to use professional sailors who were well practiced at their craft. The difference between a skilled and experienced oarsman and someone with little experience rowing was huge, and experienced oarsmen were highly prized by ancient Mediterranean navies.
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Jul 18, 2021 03:05
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So if you're dragooned into land armies but shanghaied into a navy, what's the term for being forced into flying a plane? Or being made a space marine while drunk?
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Jul 18, 2021 07:26
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Mister Olympus posted:So if you're dragooned into land armies but shanghaied into a navy, what's the term for being forced into flying a plane? Or being made a space marine while drunk? Something something about the latter one being 'joining the Space Wolves'. I'm not sure press-ganging for pilots was ever a thing... outside maybe those suicide planes the Nazis intended to be flown by Hitler Youth.
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Jul 18, 2021 07:33
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It was take a truly insane twist for planes to ever be cheap enough that pilots are the bottleneck, and yet easy enough that unwilling people pressed into service could manage it
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Jul 18, 2021 07:37
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Mister Olympus posted:So if you're dragooned into land armies but shanghaied into a navy, what's the term for being forced into flying a plane? kamikaze
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Jul 18, 2021 08:09
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Mister Olympus posted:So if you're dragooned into land armies but shanghaied into a navy, what's the term for being forced into flying a plane? Or being made a space marine while drunk? Just SKY CRIIIIIME https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hCOc2eGGJvY
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Jul 18, 2021 08:38
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Mister Olympus posted:So if you're dragooned into land armies but shanghaied into a navy, what's the term for being forced into flying a plane? Shanghighed
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Jul 18, 2021 08:47
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Ghost Leviathan posted:Something something about the latter one being 'joining the Space Wolves'. Trouble is, put someone in a plane and they can...fly somewhere else. Though I guess airliner hijackings might count? Trad version not 9/11 where the terrorists had learned to fly themselves.
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Jul 18, 2021 09:46
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Nessus posted:Yeah, more to the point, what Englishmen do to other Englishmen is less of a concern to another country, than what Englishmen do to the citizens of that country. The whole point here is that by both British and what there was of international law at the time, British people who moved to America were still British. There was no method of renouncing British nationality at the time. Its still a massive pain to renounce either British or American nationality today btw and very few people do. This still applies today to dual citizens. US citizenship doesn't stop you being liable for conscription in the other country for example.
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Jul 18, 2021 09:54
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The simple solution to getting Shanghaied is to mutiny kill all your officers and get into piracy. FreudianSlippers fucked around with this message at 10:21 on Jul 18, 2021 |
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Jul 18, 2021 10:19
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feedmegin posted:Trouble is, put someone in a plane and they can...fly somewhere else. *theme from the Great Escape plays as I pilot my Yokosuka MXY-7 Ohka to Switzerland.
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Jul 18, 2021 11:26
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FreudianSlippers posted:The simple solution to getting Shanghaied is to mutiny kill all your officers and get into piracy. There were marine soldiers on every ship to prevent exactly that.
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Jul 18, 2021 12:32
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Mister Olympus posted:So if you're dragooned into land armies but shanghaied into a navy, what's the term for being forced into flying a plane? Or being made a space marine while drunk? Bandoged
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Jul 18, 2021 12:34
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Zopotantor posted:There were marine soldiers on every ship to prevent exactly that. What happens if the marines decide piracy sounds great? The term dragoon made me wonder if there are any big examples of dragoon-style troops in ancient warfare? Cavalry dismounting happened obviously. But were there large formations that would ride up and dismount as a matter of course? I suppose the mechanics of firing a musket vs throwing a javelin make dragoons less necessary. Edgar Allen Ho fucked around with this message at 12:40 on Jul 18, 2021 |
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Jul 18, 2021 12:36
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The rough equivalent to the firearmed horse trooper in the Roman army would have been the horse archer, who is more useful mounted than dismounted. I’m positive there’s some historical record of an occasion when some Roman commander had some of his infantry grab onto the side of his cavalrymen’s horses (though no idea how, without stirrups) and “ride” to the site of the action that way so they wouldn’t be worn out when they got to fight. But I don’t have a reference for it.
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Jul 18, 2021 12:59
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feedmegin posted:The whole point here is that by both British and what there was of international law at the time, British people who moved to America were still British. There was no method of renouncing British nationality at the time. Its still a massive pain to renounce either British or American nationality today btw and very few people do. In the early 1800s, a lot of the american sailors were born in the USA and were never “British” by any definition other than that used by the British who didn’t really consider the colonies an independent nation. The former British citizenry would have generally been too old to impress in the early 1800s. Your 18-25 year olds in 1800 were all born in free USA.
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Jul 18, 2021 13:18
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feedmegin posted:The whole point here is that by both British and what there was of international law at the time, British people who moved to America were still British. There was no method of renouncing British nationality at the time. Its still a massive pain to renounce either British or American nationality today btw and very few people do. See - Singapore, today. If you're a male who is a Singaporean citizen and hasn't done your two-year conscription term, you'll be arrested entering the country and made to take part even if you were born abroad.
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Jul 18, 2021 14:39
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Mr. Nice! posted:In the early 1800s, a lot of the american sailors were born in the USA and were never “British” by any definition other than that used by the British who didn’t really consider the colonies an independent nation. The former British citizenry would have generally been too old to impress in the early 1800s. Your 18-25 year olds in 1800 were all born in free USA. Emigration didn't stop though. Both legitimate emigration and Britons falsely claiming to have been American in an attempt to avoid impressment seem to have been real things.
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Jul 18, 2021 14:48
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Yes, it's like a lava lamp.
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Edgar Allen Ho posted:What happens if the marines decide piracy sounds great? I remember reading about how well-equipped Celt warriors (pre-Roman conquest) would ride chariots to the battlefield but dismount to fight. I don't know what proportion of their military would have been able to afford chariots versus just being footsoldiers though.
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Jul 18, 2021 14:51
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The Norse would frequently ride horses into battle but dismount before the actual combat started. I've also heard about hoplites riding to the battlefield before forming the phalanx. No idea if there is any truth to that. Which isn't quite the same as proper dragoons but in the same spirit. FreudianSlippers fucked around with this message at 15:02 on Jul 18, 2021 |
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Jul 18, 2021 15:00
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Edgar Allen Ho posted:The term dragoon made me wonder if there are any big examples of dragoon-style troops in ancient warfare? Cavalry dismounting happened obviously. But were there large formations that would ride up and dismount as a matter of course? Kylaer posted:I remember reading about how well-equipped Celt warriors (pre-Roman conquest) would ride chariots to the battlefield but dismount to fight. I don't know what proportion of their military would have been able to afford chariots versus just being footsoldiers though. FreudianSlippers posted:The Norse would frequently ride horses into battle but dismount before the actual combat started. Yeah, the early charioteer troops and celtic charioteers were basically dragoons, who mainly used the vehicles to transport armored nobles into combat, but they fought on foot. Carolingian and viking cavalry also usually fought on foot, because their horses were so tiny, so they were also very dragoon like. The horses and chariots made it possible for armored soldiers to move faster and arrive less tired into combat. e: skasion posted:I’m positive there’s some historical record of an occasion when some Roman commander had some of his infantry grab onto the side of his cavalrymen’s horses (though no idea how, without stirrups) and “ride” to the site of the action that way so they wouldn’t be worn out when they got to fight. But I don’t have a reference for it. I think that some of Napoleon's French troops did the same on some occasions. ChubbyChecker fucked around with this message at 15:19 on Jul 18, 2021 |
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Jul 18, 2021 15:07
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Epicurius posted:Impressment in the Royal Navy was complicated. It was technically illegal to impress non-British subjects, and if you were a citizen of another country, you could appeal the impressment (although while your case went through, you were still stuck on the ship), Part of what complicated things was that the British government didn't allow you to renounce your Britishness, even if you were a citizen of another country. So, British sailors would move to America, become American citizens, and then still later be impressed off American ships, because as far as the Navy was concerned, they were British. Arglebargle III posted:The press routinely took foreign seamen illegally. The theoretical right to petition an admiralty court did little good to a monoglot Danish seaman picked up off the Azores by a British man o war headed to Singapore. Random port city dwellers were rarely impressed into service historically, it's mainly a pop culture thing that everyone was in danger. Impressment was targeted mainly at commercial sailors.
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Jul 18, 2021 15:10
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ChubbyChecker posted:Impressment was targeted mainly at commercial sailors. Yeah they wanted sailors not random people. Randos would be worse than useless. But in the US that was a big deal too especially in the NE a lot of communities were built around shipbuilding and shipping. Edit: to clarify here sailors were paid differently, basically they got shares, even the lowest crew. So when a vessel finished a voyage they got a portion of the profits. Sailing was risky so a family losing that income and future voyage incomes was a bfd to Americans and it hit a whole community. Also it’s not like anybody impressed was coming back, the British navy was pretty drat lethal at the time because of the wars. Bar Ran Dun fucked around with this message at 16:12 on Jul 18, 2021 |
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Jul 18, 2021 16:07
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Bar Ran Dun posted:Also it’s not like anybody impressed was coming back, the British navy was pretty drat lethal at the time because of the wars. Not really? Not many major naval battles post Trafalgar. Disease, sure.
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Jul 18, 2021 18:44
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Mr. Nice! posted:In the early 1800s, a lot of the american sailors were born in the USA and were never “British” by any definition other than that used by the British who didn’t really consider the colonies an independent nation. The former British citizenry would have generally been too old to impress in the early 1800s. Your 18-25 year olds in 1800 were all born in free USA. As mentioned, um, no. The US is built on immigration remember? That includes Britain and Ireland which was entirely part of the UK at the time. The born in the USA types you mention are the ones who were NOT theoretically eligible. feedmegin fucked around with this message at 18:50 on Jul 18, 2021 |
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Jul 18, 2021 18:48
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feedmegin posted:Not really? Not many major naval battles post Trafalgar. Disease, sure. Just being at sea is dangerous enough. Especially in a wooden ship. Disease, the sea, etc. military ships also had more people crammed in than merchant ships making all those things worse. It just kills people. It’s one thing to do it for a reward for a share of the voyage profit. But that was risky too. Bar Ran Dun fucked around with this message at 20:33 on Jul 18, 2021 |
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Jul 18, 2021 19:54
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quote:Thinking the cellar was a part of the Snug Harbor Pub; the men had each consumed cups of embalming fluid, which they had mistaken for liquor. When Kelly found them, several had died and others were dying. Claiming the dead were merely unconscious from too much drink, Kelly sold all 22 to a captain whose ship sailed before the truth was discovered.
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Jul 18, 2021 21:02
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Gaius Marius posted:These have gotta be the dumbest people I've ever heard of Maybe they heard the story of Nelson's body being preserved in a barrel of brandy, and thought embalming was always done that way.
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Jul 18, 2021 21:11
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Gaius Marius posted:These have gotta be the dumbest people I've ever heard of The key words are quote:too much drink
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Jul 18, 2021 21:14
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Bar Ran Dun posted:Just being at sea is dangerous enough. Especially in a wooden ship. Disease, the sea, etc. military ships also had more people crammed in than merchant ships making all those things worse. It just kills people. It’s one thing to do it for a reward for a share of the voyage profit. But that was risky too. Absolutely but this isn't 'because of the wars'. Same deal in peacetime.
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Jul 18, 2021 22:46
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feedmegin posted:Absolutely but this isn't 'because of the wars'. Same deal in peacetime. Just because the French navy wasn’t doing much after Trafalger didn’t mean it wasn’t dangerous to be blockading and raiding shipping. And naval discipline is taken more seriously during a war even if the naval part of the war has been won. And that poo poo suuuckked in that time period. Edit: If the British navy at the time wasn’t lethal as poo poo, why did they need to impress Americans? Bar Ran Dun fucked around with this message at 03:25 on Jul 19, 2021 |
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Jul 19, 2021 03:20
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Edgar Allen Ho posted:What happens if the marines decide piracy sounds great? A ship is going to be a reflection of any society that produces it, and so it will consist of a large mass of laborers who do all the real work, and a tiny minority of elites that get to live in cabins with servants. And in the middle will be a group of violent enforcers armed with force multipliers like muskets and sabers. The marines have every incentive to enforce the social order. They have complete license to perform their own crimes for profit. See, for instance, the casual criminality of American police and JSOC operators: constant thievery and fraud and domestic violence and DUIs and the occasional drug trafficking/murder for hire. But they're never going to perform crimes that upset the social order. So no piracy.
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Jul 19, 2021 04:23
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The people tasked with maintaining the ship in the name of the owner back on land tended to be paid a lot more than they could expect under a relatively egalitarian pirate arrangement, I believe, for just that reason
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Jul 19, 2021 04:36
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cheetah7071 posted:The people tasked with maintaining the ship in the name of the owner back on land tended to be paid a lot more than they could expect under a relatively egalitarian pirate arrangement, I believe, for just that reason I’m going from memory here. Particularly for whalers in New England, some of the ships were joint stock ventures but the shareholders were often the community. They built the ship, crewed it, etc all for shares. I guess this is part what makes impressment of Americans more of an issue to Americans at the time. I think English ships tended to be financed in a way that was more similar to modern finance (and modern finance and insurance actually come from this). Bar Ran Dun fucked around with this message at 06:22 on Jul 19, 2021 |
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Jul 19, 2021 06:09
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Phobophilia posted:A ship is going to be a reflection of any society that produces it, and so it will consist of a large mass of laborers who do all the real work, and a tiny minority of elites that get to live in cabins with servants. And in the middle will be a group of violent enforcers armed with force multipliers like muskets and sabers. the marines didn't spend their watches pointing muskets at sailors. sailing ship marines weren't modern american cops
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Jul 19, 2021 13:40
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Bar Ran Dun posted:Just because the French navy wasn’t doing much after Trafalger didn’t mean it wasn’t dangerous to be blockading and raiding shipping. commerce and whaling didn't stop during wars, and when the smaller peace time navy was expanded, the sailors needed to come from somewhere. whalers and the east india company's sailors were protected, so the impressment was targeted at other commercial sailors and former commercial sailors. and as was said earlier itt, the british law viewed british immigrants as still being brits.
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Jul 19, 2021 13:44
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