|
I've always liked the idea of the God-Machine as the anthropomorphic representation of the systems of the world, one that's so far removed from the individual perspective that it's impossible for us to know if it has anything that we could even identify as needs or will or desires. But the GMC book never really sold me on the idea that the God-Machine was anything more than a high concept, or even a thoroughly sketched-out one. The God-Machine as written isn't the personification of the systems of the world, it's an entity sitting behind those systems, pulling levers that pull other levers, so far removed from anything you directly interact with that it might as well not exist. (Which would be an interesting tack for a God-Machine chronicle to take, although "the God-Machine literally exists" is one of the few concrete setting details that the GMC assumes to be true.) The premise begs the question "okay, and then what?" but never really answers it; the G-M and its minions never get deeper than "yet another seemingly-ubiquitous World of Darkness conspiracy, but with gears on it." The total aesthetic focus on steampunk bullshit in general and steampunk angels in particular always left me cold; as far as I'm concerned, it would have been better to either go whole hog and make it straight-up sci-fi, or else go much more metaphorical with the idea that the G-M is the machinery connecting and controlling the world, with literal machines full of literal gears being just one way to represent that. I sometimes wonder if the shadow of oWoD might have affected the development of the GMC's theming, to make sure that it was in its own niche rather than being perceived as the CofD reiteration of the Technocracy and/or the Weaver.
|
#
?
Jul 20, 2021 14:26
|
|
|
|
| # ? Jun 4, 2024 17:20 |
|
|
As someone whose only exposure to WoD/CoD stuff so far has been the Chronicles of Darkness 2e core book (and Geist 2e which I don't think mentions the God-Machine), I enjoyed the idea as presented. I like the idea that the scale at which it operates and advances its unknown goal is incomprehensibly vast and complex--such that any given occult matrix it tries to assemble is just one tiny intermediate step in some unfathomably long chain of events that carries off far into the future, serving as some unknown subroutine in some lesser supply chain for some unknowable abstraction. Either there is a master plan and nobody is privy to it, or there's no master plan and the individual bits of infrastructure are just spreading and changing and evolving, meaninglessly, forever--and I think it's a feature, not a bug, that there's no meaningful way to tell. That, combined with the idea that most of the interactions it has that might show up in a chronicle are either collateral damage, using humans and human suffering as just another mundane component of some minor ritual, or just some rounding error from a previous action that it's just completely ignoring, is why I feel it's an effective setting piece for cosmic horror. It's not some big bad tentacle monster with a name and a cult that wants to destroy the world, it's not some deity in a pantheon that demands worship (despite the name), it may not even exist in the strictest sense: there's nothing there to assign human qualities to, no landmark or vantage point that helps you glean any kind of perspective on the strange phenomena it comprises. It keeps the mystery intact, and I think that helps inform the tone for Storytellers and players alike. It's also some gears somewhere, like underground maybe?? I think that last bit kind of undermines the whole shebang, personally, but maybe having some more concrete bits helps sell the concept. GetDunked fucked around with this message at 15:09 on Jul 20, 2021 |
|
#
?
Jul 20, 2021 14:58
|
|
|
Old Doggy Bastard posted:I actually just visited that area and Henry Frick's house in Pittsburgh a couple of weeks ago! I'm glad that other people appreciate and respect Promethean for the incredible idea behind it. My gaming group also jokes about the idea of running a Promethean game as a sort of quest for the Holy Grail. Osirus: "Go and tell your master that we have been charged by our demiurges with a Great Work. If he can provide us food and shelter for the night he can join us on the pilgrimage for the New Dawn." Pandoran: "Well, I'll ask him, but I don't think he'd be very keen. He's already got one you see?" Osirus: "... huh?" Ulgan: "They said they already got one."
|
|
#
?
Jul 20, 2021 15:23
|
|
|
The main problem I have with the God-Machine that it doesn't mesh well with most splats, especially with Mage. The world doesn't seem large enough for a yet another all-encompassing conspiracy on top of the business with the Exarchs. It seems weird that mages seem oblivious to the G-M, which seems like a huge deal; their nature as walking mystery detectors means they're going to bump into Infrastructure regularly. The Seers are chummy with the God-Machine, which seems a reason enough for the Pentacle to mess with it. I see no way for it to not dominate a standard Mage campaign once introduced. The same problem goes for other splats, although not to the same degree: the Machine is pretty much everywhere, to the point where it should be a huge concern for every supernatural splat (except maybe vampires).
|
|
#
?
Jul 20, 2021 15:33
|
|
|
Remember, the God-Machine isn't a conspiracy. It's a congeries of mindless, random, physical processes that frequently feed into each other. If you go back and read the nWoD 1e and Requiem 1e corebooks you'll see plenty of mention of strangeness in the margins that isn't recognizably related to any of the main splats. Most of that stuff is just chupacabras or greys or whatever, but of all the weird crap festering in the corners of the WoD, some percentage is related to the God-Machine. Mages in particular don't have a lot to worry about w/r/t the God-Machine because a lot of it's just based on Fallen World physics and chemistry that probably serves as an interesting side project to study but A) doesn't ping the peripheral mage sight and B) is trivially understood and overcome by supernal magic if it actually becomes a problem. There probably are a fair number of mages who follow the supernatural and far-spanning aspects of the God-Machine with interest, but it's for the same reason that your local Mysterium probably contains a bigfoot specialist. It's weird and kind of cool. I ran a Mage game a while ago in which the God-Machine(s)(!) were secretly part of the way the Seers ran the world, but unless you stick details like that in it's all just part of living in a modern horror setting. Ferrinus fucked around with this message at 16:49 on Jul 20, 2021 |
|
#
?
Jul 20, 2021 16:42
|
|
|
I Am Just a Box posted:Did you read the God-Machine Chronicle when it was its own stand-alone book, Yawgmoth, or after it was recompiled into the Chronicles of Darkness 2e Rulebook? The recompilation sadly omits huge swaths of the original book's Introduction, which oddly enough was one of the best parts of the book, and specifically the best material written to date on understanding the God-Machine and how to use it in simple and clear terms. I Am Just a Box posted:As far as the advice in Building the God-Machine Chronicle and tagged onto the end of each individual Tales of the God-Machine adventure writeup on setting stakes for individual projects and how to link them together to flow from one to the next, I'll agree with you, that advice is thin and unhelpful. A lot of the tales really don't fit with one another and it would have made more sense to dedicate word count not to talking about how to chain from one to the next but how to drag each tale concept out to a longer-term campaign by itself. gtrmp posted:The premise begs the question "okay, and then what?" but never really answers it; the G-M and its minions never get deeper than "yet another seemingly-ubiquitous World of Darkness conspiracy, but with gears on it." gtrmp posted:I sometimes wonder if the shadow of oWoD might have affected the development of the GMC's theming, to make sure that it was in its own niche rather than being perceived as the CofD reiteration of the Technocracy and/or the Weaver.
|
|
#
?
Jul 20, 2021 16:52
|
|
|
I mean, 
|
|
#
?
Jul 20, 2021 16:55
|
|
|
To understand the weaver, instead research corporations-as-AI and the role of hyperspecialisation in social collapse. The Weaver wants things more stable, but to get there is a fractal pattern of constantly unfolding complexity. Look into plant root networks and naturally occurring patterns of ratios etc as well, and emergent behaviours of marketplaces and industrial networks. That is all the Weaver, and that is why the Garou - including the Walkers - are all fuckwits.
|
|
#
?
Jul 20, 2021 17:06
|
|
|
Yawgmoth posted:This is what I'm talking about. IDGAF if the GM's final destination is turning the planet into a big borg cube or if it's just playing the Great Old One version of Lego; what I need to know is why people are getting kidnapped to work in this particular shadow-factory and most importantly what happens if no one interferes? You also have to answer "what happens if no one interferes" if the vampire Prince of your city is secretly a member of Belial's Brood or if the local Seer pylon screwing with local zoning laws to make sure the next three skyscrapers go up in an equilateral triangle exactly X feet on a side. That's just bread and butter WoD stuff.
|
|
#
?
Jul 20, 2021 17:11
|
|
|
Godmachine plans also include things like "the vampire prince will interfere, the ensuring violence will shutdown I95. Jason Carter will be 26 minutes late to his shift at Arby's, causing the shift supervisor to have an epiphany that leads to writing a novel which will be read in 6 years by Suzi Ng and influence her to not/have a Very Important abortion." The point is that we can't know where it's going because it's too far-reaching and esoteric for one mind to grasp. E: pretty much the only confirmation it exists (and isn't random fate) is that its schemes sometimes include oops here's a mass grave with literal clockwork in it. moths fucked around with this message at 17:32 on Jul 20, 2021 |
|
#
?
Jul 20, 2021 17:25
|
|
|
Loomer posted:To understand the weaver, instead research corporations-as-AI and the role of hyperspecialisation in social collapse. The Weaver wants things more stable, but to get there is a fractal pattern of constantly unfolding complexity. Look into plant root networks and naturally occurring patterns of ratios etc as well, and emergent behaviours of marketplaces and industrial networks. That is all the Weaver, and that is why the Garou - including the Walkers - are all fuckwits. Chagas Cruzi Was Right .jpg
|
|
#
?
Jul 20, 2021 17:43
|
|
|
Second best intro comic, that one. The first? Sergeant Howl and his Killing Commandos, of course.
|
|
#
?
Jul 20, 2021 17:49
|
|
|
I've always liked this bit from the video game Heat Signature in:re weaver/god machine.quote:OK, so who runs Sovereign? Officially, the board of directors. But they have to do what the stakeholders want, or they'll be voted off and replaced. That's not a theory, that happens all the time. So they have literally no autonomy. They just execute the will of the stakeholders, no matter what. So the stakeholders run Sovereign, right?
|
|
#
?
Jul 20, 2021 18:16
|
|
|
moths posted:I mean,
|
|
#
?
Jul 20, 2021 19:35
|
|
|
Cool! (I was worried I might come across more smartass than intended.) I think the Glasswalkers book has some more insight on the Weaver, but it's been decades so. The 20th anniversary editions do a good job of providing a summary overview, so Wf20 might be another good place to start.
|
|
#
?
Jul 20, 2021 20:07
|
|
|
I’ve always considered it easiest to just think about what the actual harm and attention-grabbing thing the Machine is doing at a given moment and left the reason why for later. The reason ultimately doesn’t matter. What matters is the Machine is selecting for rebellious, runaway teens and funneling them into a cult-run home that is secretly stealing their blood, which is being shipped across the county to a storage facility guarded by mutant bears. The PCs get wind of this because one of the teen is a friend, maybe? But why the God-Machien wants that blood, what it’s going to do with it - all that isn’t important until later, when I can backfill an answer, if I ever need to. What’s important right now is stopping the blood harvest program and dismantling the cult and their Angel backer.
|
|
#
?
Jul 20, 2021 20:18
|
|
|
The thing about Book of the Weaver is that it's a shockingly goofy book, from earlier in the line than I orginally thought. One of the main Weaver-based villains is the corporation DNA, which is trying to find a cure for lycanthropy, which they have decided is a disease, and have pooh-poohed the idea that something supernatural is going on. They decided that the way werewolves double their loving mass is "probably a function of increased adrenaline." My comment at the time was that instead they should be trying to duplicate the wolfman gene and sell it to the NFL to make werewolf linebackers, because that would actually be less silly. It also has a lot of computer magic written by someone who doesn't understand how computers work.
|
|
#
?
Jul 20, 2021 20:38
|
|
|
I agree with Yawgmoth generally but find the God-Machine, specifically, inoffensive. I think the distinction is that "the God-Machine has a splintered and incoherent purpose" can be read a definitive answer in itself rather than the narrative equivalent of "eh, GM'll fix it." Kind of like how Forsaken have all these contradictory folk stories, but then Dark Eras provides a pretty conclusive answer to most of them. The point isn't that any of these answers could be right, it's that werewolves are a bunch of boomers on Woofbook swapping conspiracy theories, and have a culture that is incredibly at ease with uncertainty because Luna is a manipulative and withholding mother. 
|
|
#
?
Jul 20, 2021 20:45
|
|
|
Doctor Zaius posted:I've always liked this bit from the video game Heat Signature in:re weaver/god machine. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IRFkVWCoQzk
|
|
#
?
Jul 20, 2021 20:59
|
|
|
Most people didn't really understand how DNA worked back then, either! God Machine kind of fills the conspiracy void that got left in the oWoD. The previous iteration was (arguably) more about conspiracy and shadow wars than monsters, and now things were much more individual oriented stories. That is, if half the redheads in an LA suburb vanished overnight, there were a dozen likely culprits with motives and methods that all fit perfectly into the oWoD. - in the nWoD it's just the god machine at it again. (Or maybe some loving mages.) GM reintroduces that paranoid conspiracy element back, but with a rider that the players won't understand the answers. It's fun but maybe not as satisfying because it's incomprehensible by design.
|
|
#
?
Jul 20, 2021 21:00
|
|
|
Tuxedo Catfish posted:I agree with Yawgmoth generally Yes, let's all become compleat.
|
|
#
?
Jul 20, 2021 21:00
|
|
|
I think Ferrinus touched on this already, but another thing is that people seem to have a craving to frame the God-Machine as a person, as something that has motivation or at least telos in the first place; even my last comment kind of falls into that trap a little. This is a misunderstanding of the God-Machine. It is, in the most literal sense, a machine. It may possibly have been built with a purpose but one of the most commonly repeated (if not outright confirmed) speculations about its nature is that it is broken and whatever it was supposed to do has long been overgrown by its own cancerous tendency to self-perpetuate. What you have is not an evil mastermind but the product of evolutionary pressure. The God-Machine is something that upholds the Lie / the status quo / etc. because that was the least costly and most profitable niche for it to occupy, something that spits out Demons as an incidental by-product of creating Angels, and something that creates Angels because Angels create Infrastructure and Infrastructure because Infrastructure creates Angels. It hunts and tries to re-integrate Demons because it's cheaper to re-purpose malfunctioning hardware than to make something from scratch. It doesn't care about you, or hold grudges, it doesn't even "want" to do any of these things, it just does them because doing them is part of a feedback loop that successfully perpetuates itself. The God-Machine doesn't plan; it iterates, and it reacts. Tuxedo Catfish fucked around with this message at 21:23 on Jul 20, 2021 |
|
#
?
Jul 20, 2021 21:15
|
|
|
 The Dog-Machine Chronicle: things just kind of happen, for no discernable reason
|
|
#
?
Jul 20, 2021 21:21
|
|
|
Rand Brittain posted:They decided that the way werewolves double their loving mass is "probably a function of increased adrenaline."  I love this goofy poo poo. Adrenaline can break fundamental laws of physics and biology now!  Rand Brittain posted:It also has a lot of computer magic written by someone who doesn't understand how computers work. MonsieurChoc posted:Yes, let's all become compleat. 
|
|
#
?
Jul 20, 2021 21:41
|
|
|
I found a useful guide to envisioning the God-Machine in the Expanse books, specifically Abbadon's Gate and Cibola Burn. In those the alien virus-weapon-tool-thing called the protomolecule is trying to do the job the extinct alien species made it for: being shot at relativistic speeds to Goldilocks Zone planets, hijacking any organic structures that emerge there, and then using them to build space gates to connect the system to the gate-builder empire. But the problem is, that empire is dead and it has no one to report to and it doesn't know why. So it makes a ghost. One of the first books protagonists was a detective named Miller who died inside a protomolecule infected space station while crashing it into Venus. Long story. But the protomolecule kind of... reassembles him and uses him as a tool to find things, specifically to get the gate network running again and figure out why there's no one to report to. And Miller is kind of conscious and has some agency, but is ultimately not really his/its own entity. A handful of chapters from 'his' perspective in Cibola Burn make it very clear that the protomolecule isn't aware, but parts of it are. It doesn't want anything, but parts of it do. It has a job it was built for and an ability to make its own tools, but it's not intelligent. Elements of matrix it's constructed to do its job are or were human, but it isn't and never was. Eventually it's possible to figure out what it wants, and even why, but its interests are orthogonal to ours. And perhaps most importantly, it is a broken thing trying to do a job that can't be completed. The resolution in Cibola Burn is that they hit it with the same tool that killed its masters so it will stop setting off the dead aliens' defense systems at random. It's probably the best non-CofD source for understanding the, for lack of a better word, character of the God-Machine. Also they're just good books/a good show.
|
|
#
?
Jul 21, 2021 01:04
|
|
|
Blindsight might be a useful read along similar veins.
|
|
#
?
Jul 21, 2021 01:15
|
|
|
Rand Brittain posted:The thing about Book of the Weaver is that it's a shockingly goofy book, from earlier in the line than I orginally thought. I mean, early WWtA was “Saturday morning cartoon view of environmentalism plus slasher movie gore.”
|
|
#
?
Jul 21, 2021 01:16
|
|
|
Also, a surprising amount of fascism.
|
|
#
?
Jul 21, 2021 01:19
|
|
|
Loomer posted:Also, a surprising amount of fascism. Again, Saturday morning cartoon influence.
|
|
#
?
Jul 21, 2021 01:36
|
|
|
Loomer posted:Also, a surprising amount of fascism. 90s.txt
|
|
#
?
Jul 21, 2021 01:39
|
|
|
MonsieurChoc posted:Yes, let's all become compleat. To become compleat is to become some sort of steampunk Borg and... we like steampunk now?
|
|
#
?
Jul 21, 2021 01:56
|
|
|
TheCenturion posted:Again, Saturday morning cartoon influence.
|
|
#
?
Jul 21, 2021 01:59
|
|
|
Loomer posted:Also, a surprising amount of fascism. Which Ericsson wanted to bring back! That heroic fascism.
|
|
#
?
Jul 21, 2021 02:12
|
|
|
Broke: Fascist strongmen werewolves locked in the death battle Woke: Democratic socialist werewolf sept run by Black Furies Bespoke: Ratkin-Bone Gnawer Anarcho-Syndicalist Alliance
|
|
#
?
Jul 21, 2021 02:33
|
|
|
In retrospect, the Seventh Generation wasn't as crazy as we thought. We live in a Post-Epstein world after all.
|
|
#
?
Jul 21, 2021 03:23
|
|
|
I grew up on oWoD and actually enjoyed some parts of the grand metaplot and the distinct feeling of self-awareness and fatalism built into the publishing line. I liked the mechanics rework for nWoD mage but disliked most of nVamp and nWoof for flavor reasons. And that's where I stopped. I've heard good things about the 20th anniversary stuff, and the 2nd edition of nWod. I have heard some ....troublesome things about the (5th???) edition but I saw a new Vampire line on my local hobby site. Should I try this new book
|
|
#
?
Jul 21, 2021 05:22
|
|
|
Well, the people responsible for the international incident trivializing an anti-gay pogrom are no longer attached, so it's now ethically OK I guess. So if you want to see what the Worst Larper's incomprehensible home campaign looks like made official with FASHION MODELS, go for it! E: I'm told it got better since I checked out, but I cannot possibly imagine how.
|
|
#
?
Jul 21, 2021 05:28
|
|
|
moths posted:E: I'm told it got better since I checked out, but I cannot possibly imagine how. I mean, it probably couldn't have gotten worse
|
|
#
?
Jul 21, 2021 05:46
|
|
|
moths posted:Well, the people responsible for the international incident trivializing an anti-gay pogrom are no longer attached, so it's now ethically OK I guess. It managed to do something cool and good with the Ravnos, a thing i did not think was possible. But that was after Swedracula was shown the door.
|
|
#
?
Jul 21, 2021 05:56
|
|
|
|
| # ? Jun 4, 2024 17:20 |
|
|
Tuxedo Catfish posted:I think Ferrinus touched on this already, but another thing is that people seem to have a craving to frame the God-Machine as a person, as something that has motivation or at least telos in the first place; even my last comment kind of falls into that trap a little. I do like the idea of the God-Machine being aligned with various other conspiracies mostly because maintaining the status quo is in their common interest. From the other end of things, Seers and some vampires might be aware of the God-Machine to a degree and see it as a potentially useful tool.
|
|
#
?
Jul 21, 2021 06:54
|
|
