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BIG HEADLINE posted:Can't wait for the luke-warm response from Blizzard that boils down to "here's some free stuff to imply we're sorry, not much unlike an abusive significant other or spouse giving gifts to excuse bad behavior."
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Jul 23, 2021 01:58
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gandlethorpe posted:Being sued by a state seems like a pretty big deal. Has that ever happened to a gaming company before? Same organization sued Riot for basically the same thing https://www.latimes.com/business/technology/story/2019-12-02/riot-games-gender-discrimination-settlement Folks if you are going to play games published by publicly traded companies, it's going to happen. I'm not sayin IN THE SLIGHTEST that it's OK, or anything like that. I'm saying that these organizations are white male heavy (in the US of course) and too many white males feel that with the promotion comes the women. It doesn't mean that you still have to support them or play their games, they know what they've done and I don't blame anyone who won't touch anything these companies are responsible for. I'm still considering whether or not I'll continue with HS, noting that me saying I won't buy anything from them is meaningless as I only have used gold to buy for the last couple of years. I worked at the Jet Propulsion Laboratory (the people who go to mars with the rovers) (when I left 15 years ago it was 80% men and about the same white) and it was terrible. I'm not going into details what happened to me and other women there but basically the same story that played out with Act/Blizz and Riot and the rest of them. It's a white male problem in my opinion and research done. Too many white men feel entitled and that's the basis of these issues.
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Jul 23, 2021 02:23
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NorgLyle posted:I really wish that I hadn't bought the pre-order already. This will probably be my last one (and no Tavern Pass this time) unless something actually happens as a result of all this. You can get it cancelled, just contact their support. They can't hold you to something you haven't received yet.
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Jul 23, 2021 02:24
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New Druid card Elwynn boar support! Seriously though it’s really good with Celestial Alignment or corrupted Strongman
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Jul 23, 2021 02:29
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Mayveena posted:Same organization sued Riot for basically the same thing Thats a private class action, not a state agency.
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Jul 23, 2021 02:51
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The situation is definitely lovely, but in terms of American (and many other countries') culture, it's par for the course. I won't back out of my UiS preorder, yet, but won't pay any more unless at least a few of the instigators are sufficiently punished. Hell, at a previous workplace, a massive Title IX investigation was basically covered up. Since it was a contracting branch of the state university system, I obtained the report through the FoIA and released it to the media causing lots of stirring, but while a few token people resigned, the main instigator is still there because he makes contracting money. Many people in general are just bad, so I won't condemn Blizzard IF they remediate properly and timely.
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Jul 23, 2021 02:54
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Flayer posted:Can't wait for the reveal stream. Odds on live comments turned off? Lmao. When is it??
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Jul 23, 2021 03:01
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I'm just thankful I've only ever been in workspaces that were a majority women with women as leadership so never had to experience this bullshit.
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Jul 23, 2021 03:09
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Taitale posted:Thats a private class action, not a state agency. Yes, apologies, noting that the state is involving itself in the lawsuit https://www.businessinsider.com/california-officials-say-riot-games-could-owe-400-million-settlement-2020-1
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Jul 23, 2021 03:16
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Normally I wouldn't join in on... external?... discussions, but I think it's important to note that toxic workplaces can and do exist regardless of the dominant race, sex, religion or other identifier. People can always be lovely and it's extremely difficult to break into any group when there is some small subset that is "left out". Preventing this sort of thing requires both individual effort from all parties as well as the institution of a strong culture from the group's leadership. It's dangerous and in no small part hypocritical to paint with too large a brush as to the cause of this sort of thing. Being the only male in a majority-female work environment can end up being just as uncomfortable, demeaning, or occasionally dangerous if the wrong people are in charge.
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Jul 23, 2021 04:06
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Amoeba102 posted:Now for the rest of paladin to follow. sure, right after we delete priest. :edit: re: the other stuff that was revealed...not surprising at all. poo poo happens all the time in various industries, and i can't imagine that the video game industry is any different. in fact, when you hear about the crazy poo poo that streamers do / have to deal with, i can only imagine this poo poo gets compounded at the company level instead. maybe this will actually force them to change (who am i kidding, bobby kotick is going to run what's left of this company into the ground while he floats effortlessly to safety on his island, using his xxxl golden parachute). Last King fucked around with this message at 05:59 on Jul 23, 2021 |
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Jul 23, 2021 05:53
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orangelex44 posted:Normally I wouldn't join in on... external?... discussions, but I think it's important to note that toxic workplaces can and do exist regardless of the dominant race, sex, religion or other identifier. People can always be lovely and it's extremely difficult to break into any group when there is some small subset that is "left out". Preventing this sort of thing requires both individual effort from all parties as well as the institution of a strong culture from the group's leadership. It's dangerous and in no small part hypocritical to paint with too large a brush as to the cause of this sort of thing. Being the only male in a majority-female work environment can end up being just as uncomfortable, demeaning, or occasionally dangerous if the wrong people are in charge. True. In that frame, I am thankful to not be framed in a sexual manner from my female leaders. Or at least of I was, not have known I was under their employment in that way.
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Jul 23, 2021 07:04
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orangelex44 posted:Normally I wouldn't join in on... external?... discussions, but I think it's important to note that toxic workplaces can and do exist regardless of the dominant race, sex, religion or other identifier. People can always be lovely and it's extremely difficult to break into any group when there is some small subset that is "left out". Preventing this sort of thing requires both individual effort from all parties as well as the institution of a strong culture from the group's leadership. It's dangerous and in no small part hypocritical to paint with too large a brush as to the cause of this sort of thing. Being the only male in a majority-female work environment can end up being just as uncomfortable, demeaning, or occasionally dangerous if the wrong people are in charge. Not to put too fine a point on it, but if your only point is to minimise and to sow some whataboutism, it's probably best you stick to your policy of not joining in on 'external' discussions like this. orangelex44 posted:It's dangerous and in no small part hypocritical to paint with too large a brush as to the cause of this sort of thing. Being the only male in a majority-female work environment can end up being just as uncomfortable, demeaning, or occasionally dangerous if the wrong people are in charge. I hope for your sake this comes from a position of well-meaning ignorance, but it's not true. This isn't just an in-group/out-group dynamic. Men are the primary perpetrators of sexual harassment and violence in workplaces. Please do not equate the danger of being a man in a majority female company to the reverse.
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Jul 23, 2021 08:45
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Jeza posted:Not to put too fine a point on it, but if your only point is to minimise and to sow some whataboutism, it's probably best you stick to your policy of not joining in on 'external' discussions like this. There was a story about someone from the Blizzard e-sports team (before they all got gutted) that had to check himself into constant therapy because he was having suicidal thoughts after all the poo poo his female boss was putting him through. Although that was also kind of a racism thing, he was from Mexico and anytime he tried to say something she would put him for trying to be all "machismo" and "chauvinist" as all men from Mexico are aught to do, of course. And yeah he was also the only male part of that group so nobody would ever try to step up for him. Point is there's a lot of poo poo going on at Blizzard, probably why they try so god damned hard to appear progressive and woke and whatever. Orange Crush Rush fucked around with this message at 09:18 on Jul 23, 2021 |
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Jul 23, 2021 09:07
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In for a penny, in for a pound on this 'derail' I guess, but if your first reaction to something like this going public is to agonise over men being painted with too broad a brush, or to bring up 'counter' examples where men have been bullied as if it were some kind of mitigating defense, you ought to critically examine your perspective on issues like this. Ultimately, trying to drag systemic issues like this down to the level of individual scenarios is at best unhelpful, and at worst actively harmful towards making steps towards resolving them. Nobody is saying the Hearthstone thread is the arena where we're gonna thrash out a solution to stuff like this, but when something sickening like this comes out, I hope the bar is high enough that people can roundly condemn it and not fall into the classic goon hole of feeling compelled to say "well, actually...", "not all men..." and so forth. It's not a good look. I won't go on about this anymore anyway.
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Jul 23, 2021 09:46
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Jeza posted:In for a penny, in for a pound on this 'derail' I guess, but if your first reaction to something like this going public is to agonise over men being painted with too broad a brush, or to bring up 'counter' examples where men have been bullied as if it were some kind of mitigating defense, you ought to critically examine your perspective on issues like this. Who said that being a first reaction? Who said females experience less harassment then males or anything? Of course they do, it's not news, it's not conjecture it's a cold hard fact. Proven time and time again a hundred different ways. But to say it never happens to males, from a female boss? I dunno man; if your reaction to the story of another Blizz employee getting driven out by suicidal thoughts of working there is "whataboutism", and not "what the gently caress kind of hosed up power structures are going on at that place" because the employee was male, it's not a good look either. Especially because that story would have broken out about the time this investigation would have started. Funnily enough, no one really cared.
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Jul 23, 2021 11:41
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Jeza posted:Not to put too fine a point on it, but if your only point is to minimise and to sow some whataboutism, it's probably best you stick to your policy of not joining in on 'external' discussions like this. Your point is well-taken, but somebody a few posts up was saying "I'm glad all my bosses are women so this sort of thing doesn't happen" and that's what led to this line of discussion. Not just a knee-jerk reaction to the news itself.
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Jul 23, 2021 13:35
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 as much as I want to believe this will result in any lasting change I’m expecting all will be forgotten soon enough as attention moves to the next issue du jour
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Jul 23, 2021 13:43
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Thank you Jeza.
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Jul 23, 2021 13:53
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Cry Havoc posted:
new ceo dude will go on stage and pledge to "be better" and announce a WoW mount with proceeds going to women's shelters and that'll be it
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Jul 23, 2021 14:21
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peer posted:new ceo dude will go on stage and pledge to "be better" and announce a WoW mount with proceeds going to women's shelters and that'll be it I fear that even that will be too much effort. We might get a sorry that you are mad "apology" that is so vague so anyone that hasn't had the news will be uninformed.
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Jul 23, 2021 14:28
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They were making GBS threads wow subs before, and yesterday FF XIV made the top 10 most played games on Steam (previous to the latest WoW patch they weren't even in the top 100) . If the HS expansion is a bust and they are overwhelmed with requests to cancel the pre-orders, they are in some deep doo doo. Plus, they can't afford to have ANY additional incidents like this while the litigation is pending because that will greatly increase the likelihood of their appeal failing and increasing the amount of the fine. Frankly they are complete morons for contesting the litigation in the first place. It's a terrible look, and I wouldn't be surprised if a shareholder revolt happens. Say you're sorry, pay the money and keep it moving. Now they've got a huge player fallout to deal with which depending on how bad it is, could cost them both in the short term and the long term, as at least some of those WoW folks who went to FF XIV aren't coming back. For HS players, Wizard of the Coast has not been hit with a similar suit, and booted a sexual predator in June of last year, so perhaps MtG Arena could be a choice to play an online CCG.
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Jul 23, 2021 15:12
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considering the ActiBlizz response to the suit I'm extremely doubtful we'll see any sort of apology any time soon at a minimum not until the case reaches judgment, and maybe not even then
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Jul 23, 2021 15:55
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Julio Cruz posted:considering the ActiBlizz response to the suit I'm extremely doubtful we'll see any sort of apology any time soon They can't apologize as long as they contest the lawsuit. Which is part of the reason why they are bleeding subs/players. Again, a very stupid shortsighted decision to contest. All of the poo poo that happened is going to come out in gory detail during that trial. Whatever good will they might have built (back) up will go out the window. The decision sounds 1000% emotional.
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Jul 23, 2021 16:00
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I've put in a ticket asking for a refund on my preorder. Think I'm finally gonna cut this game, and Blizzard, out of my life for good. I've been willing to come back so long as they managed to avoid loving something up for a decent stretch of time but something worse always comes out eventually.
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Jul 23, 2021 16:09
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Mayveena posted:For HS players, Wizard of the Coast has not been hit with a similar suit, and booted a sexual predator in June of last year, so perhaps MtG Arena could be a choice to play an online CCG. I have bad news about the institutionalized racism and unwillingness to change their culture in a meaningful way in WotC. (But seriously, I don't have any sources handy, but both the MtG and D&D teams have a long history of burning out their diversity hires because their culture fundamentally doesn't care about that and generally feeling like they only include more diverse characters to hit their quote of X diversity units per fiscal year.)
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Jul 23, 2021 16:15
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Jeza posted:I hope for your sake this comes from a position of well-meaning ignorance, but it's not true. This isn't just an in-group/out-group dynamic. Men are the primary perpetrators of sexual harassment and violence in workplaces. Please do not equate the danger of being a man in a majority female company to the reverse. I wasn't trying to equate the two, although in retrospect I suppose I can see how someone might read it that way. I agree it is vastly less physically dangerous for men over women, although from admittedly anecdotal and/or secondhand experience I would say that mentally or emotionally it's more complicated. lovely people are lovely regardless of their background. Sir Lemming posted:Your point is well-taken, but somebody a few posts up was saying "I'm glad all my bosses are women so this sort of thing doesn't happen" and that's what led to this line of discussion. Not just a knee-jerk reaction to the news itself. This. I'm not trying to sow whataboutism, I'm just saying that as a previously-ignorant bystander it's a little jarring to jump into a thread, hear about some bad stuff, and within the span of a dozen posts it's gone from "this is very problematic and I empathize with the victims" to "it's a white male problem". That's a hell of a lot of people to be pointing fingers at ("white males" are over a third of the U.S. population!), and there'd be lots of raised eyebrows if someone came in and started posting about societal issues dominated by other demographic groups... even when the claims are factually correct. Which would be the right approach, since demographic discussion should always come with a large grain of salt. Demographics often correlate with general societal issues, but as always correlation is not causation. People do things because they're white or male, but they also do things because they're rich, or they have a management position, or because it's normalized to their employment, etc. Lambasting or even condemning a few specific assholes is fine, but getting angry and argumentative with a third of a country when most of them individually doesn't deserve it is a good way to get a lot of those people angry and argumentative right back... and, eventually, they'll stop listening entirely. Once they do, you've lost the chance to convince them of anything and we're on the path of electing an orange rear end in a top hat as president (I'm obviously missing a couple steps there, but hopefully the basic principle is coming across). It's right to be angry, but being justified in that anger doesn't mean that everyone will immediately understand or excuse it when that anger is directed at them as collateral damage. I'm in no way trying to equalize what happened to people at Blizzard with getting jilted on a forum, but even if the scale is very different that doesn't mean the smaller offense doesn't exist or doesn't have it's own consequences. Pointing fingers is a poor way to convince people to enact change when it should be everybody's problem to work on. The goal should be to drive engagement and understanding, not to paint labels and shout down dissent. Ultimately my points were/are that nobody likes being stereotyped, and to note that good people are also good regardless of their background. It's not that anyone posting here is in the wrong. It's just very difficult to enact a nuanced discussion over a dumb Internet gaming forum. The issue has come out and as far as I can tell it's being persecuted in the appropriate legal framework, and we'll just have to see if further actions are taken to prevent a recurrence. Aside from making personal spending choices there's not much else that anyone here can really do.
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Jul 23, 2021 16:22
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Blizz President response: https://twitter.com/jasonschreier/status/1418512291218264065 drat, this is a masterclass in how to word your message perfectly to sound and feel great but to actually say nothing, admit no accountability, and apologize for nothing. Obviously the lawsuit is active, but still, huge yikes at everything
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Jul 23, 2021 16:53
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Jolly Jumbuck posted:The situation is definitely lovely, but in terms of American (and many other countries') culture, it's par for the course. I won't back out of my UiS preorder, yet, but won't pay any more unless at least a few of the instigators are sufficiently punished. The lawsuit is a last step after years of warnings, the only step Blizzard has taken in that time was quietly firing Alex Afrasiabi last June. He was apparently the worst(even the other executives nicknamed his office the 'Cosby Suite') but the complaint alleges violations at every level of the company.
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Jul 23, 2021 17:21
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AnacondaHL posted:Blizz President response: holy loly 
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Jul 23, 2021 17:23
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World War Mammories posted:holy loly lol "let me take a break in this apology to pat myself on the back for how progressive i am"
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Jul 23, 2021 17:26
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Yeah, I hate to think it, but now I’m always going to be left wondering just how much Brode knew, considering he legitimately rose from the bottom.
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Jul 23, 2021 17:26
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If this kicks off a mass exodus from Blizzard IP, even BGs should be sweating. Storybook Brawl has been has been in EA about a month and slowly growing in viewership.
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Jul 23, 2021 17:36
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gandlethorpe posted:If this kicks off a mass exodus from Blizzard IP, even BGs should be sweating. Storybook Brawl has been has been in EA about a month and slowly growing in viewership. Kibler is streaming it today.
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Jul 23, 2021 17:43
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orangelex44 posted:I wasn't trying to equate the two, although in retrospect I suppose I can see how someone might read it that way. I agree it is vastly less physically dangerous for men over women, although from admittedly anecdotal and/or secondhand experience I would say that mentally or emotionally it's more complicated. lovely people are lovely regardless of their background. I explicitly said TOO MANY WHITE MALES. I never said nor meant to imply all/most/many I said TOO MANY. Read my words. Geezus. I was married to a white male for 15 years. My name is Jennifer Schlickbernd (had to keep the last name in the divorce because my son wanted me to). I never lambasted a third of the country.
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Jul 23, 2021 17:46
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Macdeo Lurjtux posted:(even the other executives nicknamed his office the 'Cosby Suite') JFC
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Jul 23, 2021 17:52
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 This simple card brings me so much joy. They have to move it to the core set next year.
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Jul 23, 2021 18:18
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Flayer posted:
Oh wow yeah I like that. Don’t think there’s been a card like this ever
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Jul 23, 2021 18:33
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Finally commanding shout becomes meta
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Jul 23, 2021 18:38
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No ethical consumption under capitalism lol
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Jul 23, 2021 19:05
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