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Jamesman posted:Can we at least agree that B&R's Bane is vastly superior to TDKR's Bane? Harley Quinn did it right, b&r bane with tdkr bane's dumb voice
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Jul 23, 2021 19:35
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Anyway, my rebuttal to the superheroes are fash trope - I think people are seriously mischaracterising what fascism is. Fascism is not violence to maintain the status quo or whatever that is. I mean, heck, classically fascism is associated specifically with *violence to overturn the status quo*, hence all the wars they tried to start and the coups they attempted, successfully or not. There isn't a coherent definition of fascism being used, it's more like the colloquial use which seems to be "any politicised violence or violation of rights I do not like". But like fascism, or at least my preferred definition of fascism has a more specific meaning. It is essentially might is right as applied to politics. The core of fascist philosophy is the idea of the struggle, and the idea that success in this darwinistic struggle is the key virtue. Through this struggle, which is frequently war, the strong might rise to the top, which is where they deserve to be, while the weak are forced into subservience or annihilation, as they deserve to be. The State in fascism is either the enemy which has raised itself into an artificial position by cheating (like all those drat ((globalist)) elites and bankers, :shakesfist:) or the correct True Strong Dudes right where they deserve to be. It is not that authoritarian measures are sometimes necessarily, it is that they are *always* desirable, because using such measures is how the guy at the top demonstrates his Strength, and thus his rightness to rule. The cruelty is the point. So how do I argue that superheroes are actually not fascist? Because superhero fiction *inverts* the might makes right ethos. Generally speaking, superhero fiction posits that *right makes might*. There isn't an inherent justice in being big and strong, rather the narrative rewards the heroes with power for living up to some higher virtue. Captain America gets the super-formula for being a good dude. Thor only gets his power if he is Worthy. Tony Stark becomes Iron Man, not 'random arms dealer dude' by having his one big wake-up call. Even when the hero is randomly handed superpowers, it is not, in fact, taken for granted that because they are strong, they are admirable. Superheroes like Spiderman and Superman have to lower themselves and show humility and responsibility. The heroes have to prove that they deserve their power. They do not in fact fight, generically, for the status quo. They fight for peace pretty often, sure. They fight murderers and robbers. Often though they also fight against genocide, they fight for their own neighbourhoods that have been abandoned by the state, they fight for justice, they fight to overthrow tyrants, they fight for essential rights, they fight for people being able to make their own decisions vs a Big Purple Giant deciding it for them. The one thing they are not allowed to fight for, in fact, is *personal power*, that's the thing that the narrative will basically always punish them for. That's why superheroes are in fact not only not fascist, they are anti-fascist. Thanks for coming to my TED talk. Fangz fucked around with this message at 19:50 on Jul 23, 2021 |
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Jul 23, 2021 19:42
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Americans and especially goons don’t know what fascism means. That’s a constant.
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Jul 23, 2021 20:13
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site posted:Harley Quinn did it right, b&r bane with tdkr bane's dumb voice 100%. SPLOSIONS
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Jul 23, 2021 20:15
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Aphrodite posted:Americans and especially goons don’t know what fascism means. That’s a constant. Fascism is bad things, and the worse the thing is, the more facist it is.
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Jul 23, 2021 20:35
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Thought Slime did a good "Is Batman A The Fascist?" video. https://youtu.be/73M2sq9zK-I Short answer: No not intrinsically but sometimes with bad writers.
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Jul 23, 2021 20:47
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Effortpost incoming: I did also follow up the "stronger" thesis for capes=fash with the statement that I find even that argument to be shaky and in poor faith, as well as reductive and ahistorical (Cap is a good example). But I will point to you saying something like "superheroes stop robbers," but that isn't usually examining questions of who and why the burglar is robbing. Superheroes need a chance to show of their ability to do exciting action and adventure to overcome conflicts, and "uh, criminals" is the easy problem to throw at them. Why should a superhero care that a bank lost money? The REAL crimes of this earth, the truly atrocious ones that should be stamped out, are often totally ignored by superheroes. They're not usually helping with corporate theft of wages, or calling rich people to account for Weinstein/Epstein sex abuse and child trafficking rings, or getting justice for indigenous people who were massacred and poisoned by oil companies, etc. And if they are looking at those crimes, the perpetrators do not seem to often be coded as the dignified 1%ers, but as street level evils, or Latin American cartels, or maaaybe a rich supervillain whose gimmick is that specific evil, ignoring that rich people don't need themed identities to do those things every day. Those fights would actually look at power, and what it is, how it's used, and it implies the need for a larger change that a moral entity with great power could actually jockey for. That will rarely happen, because, well, comics are kind of dumb and they also don't deal well with deviating from current society too well in the long term. Fascism is an appeal to rule of the strong, yes, but it is also the alignment of corporate and state power, because both are used to discipline mass movements, labor, the left, and the minorities who comprise the scapegoat class. Uncritical defense of the status quo power structure is defense of a current order in which softer sort of neoliberalized "market fascism" is already the order of the day. Nazi style branding doesn't work as well anymore; it's tainted and only for edgelords. The "strong" now is the unbreakable rule of the market and its priest class. That's where power sits. The scapegoat is anyone who can't contribute enough to capitalism, or who demands better treatment by it (or its replacement).
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Jul 23, 2021 21:08
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Arist posted:I haven't seen '66 to be fair, but the consensus on it seems to have pretty heavily shifted recently and people are really into it now Batman '66 has "some days you just can't get rid of a bomb" which is (A) great comedy and (B) inferiorly ripped off for the last act of TDKR.
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Jul 23, 2021 21:38
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Jamesman posted:I'm curious as to why '66 is top of the list, and Forever and B&R are all the way at the bottom. Presumably because 66 is awesome whereas the other two are much less so. Anyway, I still maintain Goons get hung up on imagined slights to the Occupy movement and miss the wood for the trees, ie that Rises works just well as a criticism of the Iraq occupation. Bane is a nuclear power backed by corporate interests in Dagget and Talia, and promises to liberate Gotham from its oppressors. Of course, it’s all a lie, they don’t give a gently caress about the people and instead deploy mercs in stare of the art military hardware on the streets, pursuing an agenda which will cost untold lives. Chaos ensues and a desperate native insurgency pushes back against them. With the help of a knackered auld fella dressed as Dracula. It’s totally a hot mess but I dig it for being such a strange mash up of ideas and classic Bat Greatest Hits mythos, plus Bruce finally learns to let go of all his bullshit.
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Jul 23, 2021 21:46
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I don't think that Iraq thing scans at all
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Jul 23, 2021 21:53
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Dawgstar posted:Thought Slime did a good "Is Batman A The Fascist?" video. https://youtu.be/73M2sq9zK-I They also did a good video about Immortal Hulk on their other channel. And just put one up about Superman & Lois
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Jul 23, 2021 22:13
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Superheroes don't work on the greater crimes of this Earth for the same reason Gandalf doesn't. Their stories don't take place on this Earth. Children understand this, it's time manchildren do too. These Youtube thought experiments are loving ridiculous. They're fantasy stories in fantasy worlds that sometimes use the names of real things. The occasional story that tries to tackle real world issues doesn't change this. Batman spends most of his time fighting a clown. If an author explicitly wants to talk about residential schools or sex trafficking and then ignores them to have Spider-Man stop a guy who's cheating in the New York Marathon? Sure, perfect grounds for this kind of criticism. Until then those things don't exist in universe 616. Aphrodite fucked around with this message at 22:38 on Jul 23, 2021 |
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Jul 23, 2021 22:24
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To add to that ^ super-heroes work through metaphor, often broad ones, which is why real-world application often can miss the forest for the trees and why they make for good children's entertainment (though yes, not exclusively). Joker seems to represent the horror of random cruelty, the fact that something terrible can happen to you for no reason, that people can do awful things for the sake of pure nihilism or just out of the joy of cruelty itself. As Batman lost his parents to a pointless act of cruelty you can see why that conflict becomes interesting, especially as Batman also works as a metaphor for turning life defining trauma into something constructive. There is no evil figure like the Joker in real life, or a heroic figure like Batman, but they kind of communicate concepts that we do recognize from our lives. Like, you can't be Spider-Man in real life, no one can, but you can stand up for people and poo poo.
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Jul 23, 2021 22:40
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Aphrodite posted:Superheroes don't work on the greater crimes of this Earth for the same reason Gandalf doesn't. Their stories don't take place on this Earth. I agree that superheroes work better the more divorced from the real world they are. But 9/11 happened in the Marvel universe and Dr. Doom cried about it. Racism exists in the Marvel universe. Vietnam happened int the Marvel universe.
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Jul 23, 2021 22:48
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I'm actually not all that opposed to the concept of superheroes having finite influence over the status quo of the world, because it makes for vivid acknowledgements of the real world issues that prevent real good people in the real world from affecting change. We could end war today. We could end environmental disaster, we could solve poverty...but there are structural issues that prevent this. To me, "Superman could stop all wars if world leaders actually let him" and "Reed Richards could cure world hunger if not for capitalism" are actually more compelling indictments against these real world obstructions instead of just imagining that the only reason things aren't better is because we don't have colorful punchpeople. Of course, all of this is desperately dependent on actual good writing. It's not as if I wouldn't love to read good stories about superheroes effectively installing a progressive earthly utopia. And conversely, so many stories about superheroes being unable to affect change end up displaying no more intelligence than the usual "WHY DOESN'T BATMAN KILL THE JOKER??" tripe.
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Jul 23, 2021 22:51
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X-O posted:My personal ranking of live action Batman films is I’d put Returns at the top, but otherwise, it’s a real good list.
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Jul 23, 2021 22:53
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SlimGoodbody posted:I agree that superheroes work better the more divorced from the real world they are. But 9/11 happened in the Marvel universe and Dr. Doom cried about it. Racism exists in the Marvel universe. Vietnam happened int the Marvel universe. Sure, and when authors want to explore those topics seriously they may have some responsibility. But it's also okay for them to write about Batman taking down a gang of ninjas without having to address why he's doing that instead of forcing Jeff Bezos to raise wages.
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Jul 23, 2021 22:56
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I argue G.I. Joe: Origins: Snake: Eyes counts as a comic book movie, but I saw it today and didn't care for it at all. And I'm a huge, unironic, lifelong G.I. Joe fan, so I desperately wanted to love it. It really felt like the rights-holders bought the most generic martial arts movie script they could find and used Find + Replace in MS Word to enter some familiar character names into it. The costumes were pretty cool, but if you give a poo poo about Snake Eyes and Storm Shadow, especially from the Marvel Comics by Larry Hama, prepare to have any pre-existing G.I. Joe continuity completely ignored in favor of the most boring choices possible, every time. Andrew Koji (Storm Shadow) was fine with the material he was given, but I just got through binge-watching his series Warrior on HBO Max, which is a billion times better in every way, especially drama, character development, and fight choreography. The guy is great, and he deserved better. I like Henry Golding quite a bit from Crazy Rich Asians and A Simple Favor. He's an effortlessly charming actor, like a Cary Grant type, and would be an inspired choice as the next James Bond, but I feel like he was really miscast here. And Samara Weaving is awesome in action roles (Ready or Not, Mayhem, Guns Akimbo), but she barely had anything to do in her small role as Scarlett. Iko Uwais from The Raid was also wasted in a small role. drat, this was the first movie I've seen in a theater since Rise of Skywalker in December 2019, and I can't decide which one was a bigger disappointment. Big Bad Voodoo Lou fucked around with this message at 23:57 on Jul 23, 2021 |
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Jul 23, 2021 23:49
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The trailer looked like Generic Martial Arts Movie #47 so none of that surprises me
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Jul 23, 2021 23:54
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Karloff posted:To add to that ^ super-heroes work through metaphor, often broad ones, which is why real-world application often can miss the forest for the trees and why they make for good children's entertainment (though yes, not exclusively). Joker seems to represent the horror of random cruelty, the fact that something terrible can happen to you for no reason, that people can do awful things for the sake of pure nihilism or just out of the joy of cruelty itself. As Batman lost his parents to a pointless act of cruelty you can see why that conflict becomes interesting, especially as Batman also works as a metaphor for turning life defining trauma into something constructive. There is no evil figure like the Joker in real life, or a heroic figure like Batman, but they kind of communicate concepts that we do recognize from our lives. Like, you can't be Spider-Man in real life, no one can, but you can stand up for people and poo poo. A lot of criticism on the internet comes off as weird bragging about complete inability to read a metaphor, like "Star Wars isn't about anything political because The Empire isn't a real country". That said Rises is really almost explicitly conservative. It has good moments though, like the difference between Bruce Wayne's/Batman's funerals.
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Jul 24, 2021 00:25
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“I hate most modern blockbusters. They start to annoy me from the very first seconds. But the studio bosses are now only interested in film adaptations of comics. Look, even producers like Joel Silver are finding it increasingly difficult to create action movies. Superhero movies have a lot of action but little soul. These films are shot by fascists who want to make every child on the planet believe that they will never be destined to become the one who deserves a film in their honor. It was different before. Through cinema, children learned how to behave. It really helped educate young people. And all these comic book adaptations are just business. What's more, superheroes have helped shape the true cult of American hypermasculinity. In my opinion, this is almost the worst thing that could happen to our world over the past half century. I don't understand who else has a desire to watch something like a movie, the main character of which is named Captain America . ” -John McTiernan
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Jul 24, 2021 00:46
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is he implying arnold's long action movie career was teaching kids how to behave and that becoming the immortal killing machine he was in all his movies was an achievable dream
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Jul 24, 2021 00:51
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The United States posted:“I hate most modern blockbusters. They start to annoy me from the very first seconds. But the studio bosses are now only interested in film adaptations of comics. Look, even producers like Joel Silver are finding it increasingly difficult to create action movies. lmao what a baby
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Jul 24, 2021 00:52
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The United States posted:Superhero movies have a lot of action but little soul. These films are shot by fascists who want to make every child on the planet believe that they will never be destined to become the one who deserves a film in their honor. I...what?
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Jul 24, 2021 00:52
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Imagine looking at all the issues with the modern cinema landscape, even just comic book movies in particular, and landing on that
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Jul 24, 2021 00:53
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Look I know I'm full of weird takes, but that quote is neurotic even by my standards
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Jul 24, 2021 00:57
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"In my opinion, this is almost the worst thing that could happen to our world over the past half century." In...in the world? In the whole world? Since...1971?  Are you sure about that man? Are you really sure?
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Jul 24, 2021 00:57
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I have a lot more fondness for McTernan's work than, say, Martin Scorsese's but Scorsese's critcism made sense and tracked even if you don't agree with it this is I can't even parse this. Sir you made Rollerball
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Jul 24, 2021 00:59
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Yeah, I could understand Scorsese's point well enough to disagree with it, this is just nonsense
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Jul 24, 2021 00:59
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"superheroes have helped shape the true cult of American hypermasculinity" man you directed Predator
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Jul 24, 2021 01:09
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Blockhouse posted:I have a lot more fondness for McTernan's work than, say, Martin Scorsese's but Scorsese's critcism made sense and tracked even if you don't agree with it this is
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Jul 24, 2021 01:10
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McTiernan's a great director to be fair, or at least was. Directing Die Hard AND Predator is insurmountable hall of fame stuff. But there does seem to be an increasing bandwagon of people decrying super-hero films as some insidious cultural evil which I find a little silly. McTiernan's criticism is odd, considering Die Hard With A Vengeance shows McClane gun down a lot of people without asking questions and with no hesitation (a curious contrast to the original where McClane is more measured, human and less bloodthirsty). For example there's this sort of ugly moment at the start of this clip "he said don't shoot". https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g_BtKbgNqsk. Still a good film though.
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Jul 24, 2021 01:22
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Apparently in 2014 John McTiernan went to a federal minimum security prison for hiring a private investigator to illegally wiretap people (including his wife who he was currently divorcing) and then committing perjury by saying he never did. One of the people he had wiretapped was his co-producer on Rollerball, Charles Roven, who went on to produce every single DC superhero movie from Batman Begins to the present. Now I'm not saying that's the root of his bizarre, rambling, incoherent statement. But it is funny. (I'm also realizing that I'm at a point where I don't even blink when it turns out the director of some of my all-time favorite movies is a dirtbag.) e: also lest you mistakenly think a rich person actually ate poo poo he was out in less than a year and got to spend the rest of his sentence in house arrest at his big nice ranch home. Blockhouse fucked around with this message at 01:38 on Jul 24, 2021 |
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Jul 24, 2021 01:33
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I like when people bring up Captain America when they try and diss comic book movies or characters, when the movies starring him have been among the best superhero films, and the character of Captain America is one that says "what matters most is being a good person"
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Jul 24, 2021 01:37
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Codependent Poster posted:I like when people bring up Captain America when they try and diss comic book movies or characters, when the movies starring him have been among the best superhero films, and the character of Captain America is one that says "what matters most is being a good person"
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Jul 24, 2021 01:40
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Ugh arent you guys so SICK and TIRED of these ESS JAY DOUBLEYOUS making captain america WOKE and POLITICAL
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Jul 24, 2021 03:32
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Womder Woman 84 sucked out loud, but it definitely had that "You can be whatever you want, little girl" message right up front. Except the subject of a movie. I think I remember Diana adding that as she ran off.
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Jul 24, 2021 03:34
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theironjef posted:Womder Woman 84 sucked out loud, but it definitely had that "You can be whatever you want, little girl" message right up front. Except the subject of a movie. I think I remember Diana adding that as she ran off. Well you definitely can't be good and beat up rapists
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Jul 25, 2021 00:25
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bushisms.txt posted:Well you definitely can't be good and beat up rapists But you can be clotheslined by a grown woman for daring to overcome a handicap in an athletic contest!  Honestly, the more I think about it, the more I dislike the Themyscira scenes in those movies. At least when you do flashbacks to Krypton in a Superman movie, there's some kind of conflict that implies a larger society, even if it's just basically current day climate denialism. The WW movies basically reduce the island to a footnote and a fairly shallow idea of just women being athletic warrior types. Which is cool, obviously, but Jenkins has name-checked the Perez Post-Crisis run as an influence and there's almost none of that visible about the Amazons. I get dropping the origin stuff about Hercules raping Hippolyta, and even the idea of the Amazons being the reincarnations of victims of misogyny, but I don't see why you drop the ideas of there being scholars and artists on the island. Hell, one of the things I think that makes Wonder Woman stand out in the DC Trinity is that she CAN 'go home again', in the way that Clark and Bruce can't. Clark can't ever get the life he would've had on Krypton with his birth parents. Bruce can't ever get his mother and father back. Diana can, and does, hang out with her mum and her mum's girlfriend/wife, and her sisters and has cool pets and can introduce her friends from the outside world to her folks. But, of course, she can't be Sad Lonely Woman Crying Over Chris Pine For 80 Years if she has a family to go back to.
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Jul 25, 2021 03:19
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Gaz-L posted:But you can be clotheslined by a grown woman for daring to overcome a handicap in an athletic contest! Don't a lot of stories (including the films) feature her getting banned from the island for choosing to leave in the first place?
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Jul 25, 2021 03:21
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