(Thread IKs:
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eugenics might have attracted vulgar materialists when it was a new concept. it dovetails pretty well with a historical determinist idea of 'progress'.
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Jul 24, 2021 00:58
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indigi posted:I think they read “everyone should be allowed to fulfill if they want” as “the state should provide a breeding partner to those who desire one” i just meant that the state shouldn't sterilize you and should provide for people who want to have kids lol. like if you have kids the housing authority shouldn't be like 'get hosed, you need to pay for a 2/3 bedroom apartment out of pocket'. but i dont really know what the problem would be with a centralized sperm donor/surrogate system, other than it kind of skeezes out my fairly traditionalist sensibilities. single parenting doesn't bother me, but it does when i run into those (thankfully very rare) people who specifically wanted to be a single parent, rather than it just happening because their partner didn't want it or was a scum bag or whatever reason it didn't work out that way. i might have some issues from being a product of one of those 'stuck together because they got pregnant' toxic tweaker couples lol Larry Parrish has issued a correction as of 02:06 on Jul 24, 2021 |
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Jul 24, 2021 02:03
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the whole changing the nature of "family" aspect of marxism is a real fuckin hard sell to most people i think
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Jul 24, 2021 02:07
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it's interesting because once you strip the capitalist undertones from the idea of family, you're left with wildly different things for different people. my family never really adopted the 'move out at 18' thing because we're poor as hell, most of the households in the family are 3 generations. and we're fairly spread out but keep in touch and are also huge so its essentially a clan. so my idea of an ideal Marxist family structure is wildly different from other peoples; i basically just don't want people to get adopted out or stuck in toxic family structures due to economic necessity
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Jul 24, 2021 02:16
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Yeah that makes sense.
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Jul 24, 2021 02:51
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I’m kind of weirded out by surrogacy cause it seems even with everyone’s best intentions and a well regulated medical/ethical system in place there’s a pretty significant chance for the woman to suffer serious emotional trauma, not to mention the inherent dangers of pregnancy and birth. also how do you determine fair compensation for that in a communist system? a woman giving up nearly a year of her life to surrogacy - and it really is a 24 hour job at points - is such a huge burdensome commitment. I’d suggest the woman should accrue at least 3 years of labor-time as far as like remuneration and retirement calculations should go
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Jul 24, 2021 03:26
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the bourgeoisie already p much get the full family abolition experience, even if excessively indulgent and enjoyed on the back of massive exploitation. if they choose, they are already free from all the burdens of domestic life; raising children, housekeeping, cooking, etc. communism, and the eventual abolition of the family, would simply allow everyone this freedom. its really not all that abstract a concept, just really foreign for almost all of us.
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Jul 24, 2021 03:38
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I wonder what sort of impact on a generation of children it would have to be community-raised without each kid having at least one devoted/permanent parent. would probably change society in ways we can’t even guess
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Jul 24, 2021 03:41
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personally, i dont really think people should be free of that stuff, necessarily. but people should be able to be free of it if they choose, even if i rather they didn't. imo if you have kids your job should be taking care of them. just my thought. maybe some kind of communal creche thing would work but i'd prefer that parents not have to work, i guess.
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Jul 24, 2021 03:41
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indigi posted:I wonder what sort of impact on a generation of children it would have to be community-raised without each kid having at least one devoted/permanent parent. would probably change society in ways we can’t even guess you are thinking too much about it. we are already largely a community-raised society in a lot of ways. we already send our kids off to school, trusting they are getting educated. we trust that the pediatrician has their best interests in mind. we have supermarkets, laundromats, restaurants/cafeterias, all these things have already freed up many of the domestic duties. now imagine that this freedom is not exploited to maximize profits.
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Jul 24, 2021 03:53
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indigi posted:I’m kind of weirded out by surrogacy cause it seems even with everyone’s best intentions and a well regulated medical/ethical system in place there’s a pretty significant chance for the woman to suffer serious emotional trauma, not to mention the inherent dangers of pregnancy and birth. I mean even modern-day Russia had paid maternity leave. In that case, it seems it would just apply to both. Also, community-raised children were/are a thing, it is called a Kibbutz. It had/has its issues. Also, I don’t know why the concept of family needs to go, it would just change. Ardennes has issued a correction as of 04:17 on Jul 24, 2021 |
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Jul 24, 2021 04:10
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indigi posted:I’m kind of weirded out by surrogacy cause it seems even with everyone’s best intentions and a well regulated medical/ethical system in place there’s a pretty significant chance for the woman to suffer serious emotional trauma, not to mention the inherent dangers of pregnancy and birth. surrogacy is illegal in most of the world iirc. america has some of the most lax laws on it of anywhere and rich people from other places go to the US to do it
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Jul 24, 2021 04:14
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I'd venture to guess any communist society worthy of the label would involve parents keeping the joys and rewards of parenthood, the experience of shepherding another person into adulthood, spending quality time with the people you love, etc, while communizing or eliminating entirely the lovely hard parts basically this, only more and for everyone: F Stop Fitzgerald posted:you are thinking too much about it. we are already largely a community-raised society in a lot of ways. we already send our kids off to school, trusting they are getting educated. we trust that the pediatrician has their best interests in mind. we have supermarkets, laundromats, restaurants/cafeterias, all these things have already freed up many of the domestic duties. now imagine that this freedom is not exploited to maximize profits.
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Jul 24, 2021 04:34
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Ardennes posted:I mean even modern-day Russia had paid maternity leave. In that case, it seems it would just apply to both. thats not what a kibbutz is. thats the israeli word for 'settler commune'. meaning the farming towns they built in palestine and then kicked the natives out of.
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Jul 24, 2021 04:38
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Yeah, if anything it seems like a society moving toward socialism would probably allow more free time with family members/children than less. If anything the entire work from home movement shows that most people if they are free able to choose would prefer to spend more time at home and I don't know if they is a strong reason to deny them this beyond efficiency. Also, I think claims that particularly the Soviet Union "wanted to destroy the family" rarely stand scrutiny. Soviet apartments were usually small (but not actually that small compared to some more modern construction...) just because of cost/material limits of Soviet post-war construction. The Pinoneers weren't really that different than the Boy/Girl Scouts (and yes all of them are ideologically tinged) except they were co-ed. From secondary-experience, the family unit was alive and well in the Soviet Union and if anything may have been closer to more traditional societies than the standard American nuclear family. Honestly, I think I diverge from the thread in a few ways, and one of them is about speed. I immensely prefer the "go slow" approach about first putting the emphasis on improving material concerns and then much later thinking about more broad social changes much later (and if anything allowing the to happen organically.) Larry Parrish posted:thats not what a kibbutz is. thats the israeli word for 'settler commune'. meaning the farming towns they built in palestine and then kicked the natives out of. They were both, that is the issue. Children were usually raised communally in Kibbutzs and at the same time they were settler colonies. Socialist/Leftist zionism was still very much at heart colonial in nature. Personally, I don't think the experiment really panned out even beyond the obvious apartheid angle. Ardennes has issued a correction as of 04:49 on Jul 24, 2021 |
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Jul 24, 2021 04:45
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there's kind of a funny duality with the USSR and USA because efforts to destroy patriarchy didn't really take off in either, resulting in roughly the same situation but for completely different reasons. the USSR just couldn't change the culture fast enough to meet the legal reality through all these small nudging methods and the USA's changed fairly rapidly almost entirely at the behest of private capital and then spent a long time seemingly trying to stop that to keep production of labor going. pretty weird dynamic
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Jul 24, 2021 05:35
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F Stop Fitzgerald posted:you are thinking too much about it. we are already largely a community-raised society in a lot of ways. we already send our kids off to school, trusting they are getting educated. we trust that the pediatrician has their best interests in mind. we have supermarkets, laundromats, restaurants/cafeterias, all these things have already freed up many of the domestic duties. now imagine that this freedom is not exploited to maximize profits. yeah but the example you gave mentioned the parents wouldn’t have to stick around. cutting out that stable, parental-loving relationship (whether adopted or biological) among a majority of children is fundamentally different than what we’re used to. I was imagining an entire generation of children raised in an orphanage-type setting, almost an Ender’s Game situation. that would be nuts. obviously communism doesn’t necessitate this sort of child rearing and it would almost certainly not happen like that but it’s fun to think of wild hypotheticals fart simpson posted:surrogacy is illegal in most of the world iirc. america has some of the most lax laws on it of anywhere and rich people from other places go to the US to do it yeah it seems predisposed to bad outcomes. I’ve been thinking about it lately cause Israel just started allowing gay couples to use surrogates Ardennes posted:Honestly, I think I diverge from the thread in a few ways, and one of them is about speed. I immensely prefer the "go slow" approach about first putting the emphasis on improving material concerns and then much later thinking about more broad social changes much later (and if anything allowing the to happen organically.) I totally agree with this, getting everyone fed and housed and healthy is the main thing I care about tbh. it’s just interesting to imagine what’s beyond the edges of the map e: goddamn surrogate pay in PA starts at $26,000. that is so absurdly low, I can’t believe women would go through a pregnancy and birth for less than four-five times that indigi has issued a correction as of 06:44 on Jul 24, 2021 |
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Jul 24, 2021 06:41
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uh, yeah, lol. i basically put it up there with sex work. not wrong in theory but wow does the way America do it make you want to ban it entirely. the idea is good and the execution is the female only version of selling your blood and marrow except even creepier and worse somehow. unfortunately scifi artificial wombs aren't going to be a thing any time soon
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Jul 24, 2021 07:09
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Judge Dredd Scott posted:the whole changing the nature of "family" aspect of marxism is a real fuckin hard sell to most people i think sort of, but ultimately breaking the economic relationships which make the family oppressive is something liberalism claims to have achieved.* in practice, a lot (but far from all) of the bitterness and dysfunction of families fortunate enough to escape poverty-related stresses to some degree comes from the model of private possession of capital, ie land, businesses, houses, perhaps in the form of inheritance etc. grand plans to remake the experience of being a person beginning at childhood, beyond thought experiments about how the core goals you want to achieve or principles you believe should be followed can be really pretentious if you aren't aware that you're playing more of a liberal, and worse, utilitarian, sort of pastime of picturing the perfect way to raise a growing young smooth, spherical mass- except under socialism. *access to
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Jul 24, 2021 08:54
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Just finished Blackshirts and Reds after thread recommendation. The parallels between capitalism and fascism are interesting, but I don't know that making GBS threads on workers necessarily means the two are the same. Anyway, good book would recommend.
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Jul 24, 2021 09:50
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Cpt_Obvious posted:Just finished Blackshirts and Reds after thread recommendation. i also read it just last week. and recommended it to a friend who is deprogramming himself from being a lib and confused about everything
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Jul 24, 2021 10:14
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https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/818795001717850122/868292424601075722/video.mp4
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Jul 24, 2021 12:37
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Cpt_Obvious posted:Just finished Blackshirts and Reds after thread recommendation. I laughed heartily to the East German defectors who were shocked that in the West you have to actually work for a living.
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Jul 24, 2021 14:04
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indigi posted:what’s the Marxist stance on/analysis of eugenics, and has it changed over time? I’ve read about (English-speaking) marxists at the dawn of the 20th century who thought it was a good idea although some of them eventually soured on it, like HG Wells. maybe they had a different cultural understanding of the idea at first, kinda hard to tell my two cents here is that Lysenkoism was, in a way, a reaction to, and a rejection of, eugenics in the early 20th century, genetics was associated with eugenics and fascism, and some Marxists viewed it as a basically a way for the bourgeoisie to justify racism with a scientific veneer Lysenko deliberately branched away from that, and formed his work around a separate branch of Lamarckian theory that asserted that things one did during the course of their life was what got passed-down to later generations mind you, Lysenko's work prior to that which history remembers him for, was the concept of vernalization, or the chilling of seeds so that they would yield crops even when planted during spring, rather than having them ruined by winter as I understand it, Lysenko hypothesized that if you could vernalize seeds, that the offspring of a vernalized seed would itself already be "pre-vernalized" (my terminology), after having inherited that trait from the parent Lysenko managed to sell this to Stalin by wrapping it up in Marxist ideology, and by juxtaposing it against eugenics, because the thing that the offspring inherited, was something that the parent did (or in this case, was subjected to) during its life, rather than something that was built into its DNA, so to speak. This fit into broader ideological ideas regarding the "New Soviet Man" and how humanity itself would be changed as a result of living within a communist state of course, it didn't work out that way, but he often never gets much more of a discussion than "crackpot dude has crackpot theories, causes havoc with Soviet agriculture"
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Jul 24, 2021 14:20
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iirc to his dying day lysenko was like, the revisionist "biologists" of the latter-day soviet union just didn't want to listen to a son of peasant farmers like i was and that's the only reason they eventually rejected my extremely sound theories
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Jul 24, 2021 15:43
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Fish of hemp posted:I laughed heartily to the East German defectors who were shocked that in the West you have to actually work for a living. You can vote your way into capitalism but you gotta shoot your way out!
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Jul 24, 2021 15:47
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Fish of hemp posted:I laughed heartily to the East German defectors who were shocked that in the West you have to actually work for a living. same
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Jul 24, 2021 15:48
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fart simpson posted:same
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Jul 24, 2021 16:16
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Fish of hemp posted:I laughed heartily to the East German defectors who were shocked that in the West you have to actually work for a living. lmao, get wrecked
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Jul 24, 2021 16:31
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all the "we just took it for granted that basic needs would be provided by the government under capitalism as they were under communism" bits were kinda funny at first but then 
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Jul 24, 2021 17:35
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my bony fealty posted:all the "we just took it for granted that basic needs would be provided by the government under capitalism as they were under communism" bits were kinda funny at first but then 
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Jul 24, 2021 17:41
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Fish of hemp posted:I laughed heartily to the East German defectors who were shocked that in the West you have to actually work for a living. Same with the Russian folks pre- and post-collapse. It makes a lot of sense that they thought that way. After all, they still vote for their government, right? So of course their government would still be responsive to their needs, and want to avoid allowing any of its citizens (particularly in large numbers) to fall through the cracks. The whole train of thought has a bunch of unexamined and false assumptions, but given those assumptions the logic is sound.
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Jul 24, 2021 20:58
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Larry Parrish posted:if they were down with eugenics they were not Marxists because it's an inherently anti-egalitarian practice that basically postulates that most people are worthless. kind of the extreme opposite of marxism bold of you to say that of Alexandria Ocasio-Kollontai, someone who has a section for them on Marxists dot org https://www.marxists.org/archive/kollonta/1921/prostitution.htm posted:At a joint meeting of the department of maternity protection and the women’s department, Professor Kol’tsov spoke about eugenics, the science of maintaining and improving the health of humanity. Prostitution is closely connected with this problem, since it is one of the main ways in which infections are spread. The theses of the interdepartmental commission on the struggle against prostitution point out that the development of special measures to fight venereal diseases is an urgent task. Steps must of course be taken to deal with all sources of the diseases, and not solely with prostitution in the way that hypocritical bourgeois society does. But although the diseases are spread to some extent by everyday circumstances, it is nevertheless essential to give everyone a clear idea of the role prostitution plays. https://www.marxists.org/archive/kollonta/1921/theses-morality.htm posted:In the transitional period, relations between men and women must. in order to meet the interests of the workers’ collective, he based on the following considerations. quote:Science has discovered that when a woman has relationships with many men at one time, her ability to have children is impaired; and relationships with a number of women drain the main and affect the health of his children negatively. Since the workers’ collective needs strong and healthy men and women. such arrangements of sexual life are not in its interests.
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Jul 24, 2021 21:26
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 I hope they get to fixing this poo poo soon mawarannahr posted:bold of you to say that of Alexandria Ocasio-Kollontai, someone who has a section for them on Marxists dot org quote:communist morality that’s a phrase I wasn’t expecting to see indigi has issued a correction as of 21:53 on Jul 24, 2021 |
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Jul 24, 2021 21:50
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https://twitter.com/asatarbair/status/1418956331030138880?s=21
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Jul 25, 2021 00:54
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mawarannahr posted:bold of you to say that of Alexandria Ocasio-Kollontai, someone who has a section for them on Marxists dot org For you, marxist state-enforced cuckolding will mean much less sex with your wives. But for me, it will mean much more sex with your wives.
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Jul 25, 2021 04:31
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yr new gurlfrand! posted:all the years posting entire paragraphs on social media will finally pay off if you can’t say it in a meme then you don’t understand it
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Jul 25, 2021 05:49
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mawarannahr posted:bold of you to say that of Alexandria Ocasio-Kollontai, someone who has a section for them on Marxists dot org marxism dot org also hosts letters by the “ Ad Hoc Committee for a Marxist-Leninist Party” which was just FBI agents shitposting https://www.marxists.org/history/erol/1960-1970/ad-hoc5.htm https://historynewsnetwork.org/article/167878
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Jul 25, 2021 06:15
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Trabisnikof posted:marxism dot org also hosts letters by the “ Ad Hoc Committee for a Marxist-Leninist Party” which was just FBI agents shitposting If properly annotated that would still be a valuable thing for historical record
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Jul 25, 2021 06:25
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Mr. Lobe posted:If properly annotated that would still be a valuable thing for historical record quote:We would at this time like to set forth our views, briefly and concisely, on the issues of the Black nation and the multi-national party which were taken up in two recent forums for they are inextricably tied together. First, we believe that Blacks do constitute a nation within the U.S. As we have argued in the past, it would be dogmatic to apply blindly the Stalinist formulation for nationhood in the U.S. where the territories of the oppressed and oppressor nations are coterminous and where systematic racism imposed by capitalism has altered conditions from those existing in Stalin’s time. The uniqueness of the Black experience and the buying off of large sectors of the white working class with super-profits expropriated by imperialism overseas has resulted in Blacks being in the revolutionary vanguard. Black nationalism, if guided by proletarian ideology, will contribute greatly to the struggles of all peoples. That is quite a bit to unpack.
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Jul 25, 2021 08:36
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