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Captain von Trapp posted:The second is to admit that our own secular cultural mores are extremely unlikely to be the One True Final End of Moral Progress and we might be the ones in the wrong. Maybe if the bible isn't so keen on something that we consider acceptable or even obligatory, we should be open to the idea that it's us who're mistaken. But of course that assumes that you have correctly interpreted the bible in the first place - plenty of people have gone totally off the rails by reading isolated verses through their own lenses divorced from any holistic framework of theology. (This is why Catholics and Orthodox are so big on tradition and continuity.) This one and I do not and likely will never get along with some folks over. It is 100% true that our present mores are not perfect and will change over time, hopefully to the better. It does not follow that regressing by a couple thousand years is the correct answer, though it profits those who had much power in society at that time and wish it again and will argue for it vociferously.
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Jul 24, 2021 08:26
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Liquid Communism posted:This one and I do not and likely will never get along with some folks over. It is 100% true that our present mores are not perfect and will change over time, hopefully to the better. To use a relatively non-fraught example: Let us say that reasonably tasty lab-grown meat becomes economical in a few years. This presents a number of significant challenges for vegetarians, because people adopt vegetarian behavior for a wide range of reasons. It would present ethical issues to people who will only eat meat slaughtered according to particular rites. The perspective on the consumption of this food would have to change, and that change might well involve permitting carnivory or the eating of formerly unclean foods, because the context had changed. We could also be in the wrong because of emergent issues which are either barely present, or not present at all, but which will arise in the future. To use another exciting "let's avoid drawing a direct analogy to issues involving LGBT and women's rights" example, plenty of goons were randomly lovely to furries for no reason in 2006. It is now generally considered wrong, or at least passe, to be lovely to furries simply for being furries.
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Jul 24, 2021 08:52
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I'm less referring to a binary, and more to specific regressives who try to justify their position with cherrypicked biblical quotes, honestly.
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Jul 24, 2021 09:11
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I'm not the best at history but I don't think we've been doing animal sacrifices for a long, long time, in spite of the OT going on and on about how to di it properly. So it seems like the culture has changed a lot even between our modern secular laws and the Bible. In any event, as a pretty conservative person, I'm all for thumbing our nose at idea of progress, at living in the most enlightened and moral age ever. That's horseshit and the past has much to teach us about a better way of doing things. But I don't think that better way can include insulting homosexuals or patriarchy. But anyway...thanks for the replies everyone. Just wanted to hear perspectives of the actually faithful and how you deal with it. It's better than when I googled iabout the quote after hearing it and the first response said "Yeah sure, God can kill whoever He wants whenever He wants." That's...uh...hm. I have sympathies with the Voluntarist idea of God over the Rationalist one but I don't think even they would have said "God Kills people at whim, who cares."
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Jul 24, 2021 09:24
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NikkolasKing posted:I'm not the best at history but I don't think we've been doing animal sacrifices for a long, long time, in spite of the OT going on and on about how to di it properly. TITUS!!! 
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Jul 24, 2021 12:17
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Liquid Communism posted:progressives, regressives This is really the Whig theory of history, which more or less assumed that progress had reached its apex at the time and place those particular Whigs were writing it - Victorian England. Sure, the universal tendency of our modern Whigs is to say "Of course they thought they were the peak, but we know they were benighted savages and we are the peak." A hundred years from now the Whigs will be saying the same thing. Those of us of a more conservative bent tend to be open to the idea that not only are we not the apex, but there's no reason to suppose moral progress is a monotonic function at all. We may be (oh who are we kidding, we are) going backwards in some respects.
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Jul 24, 2021 17:05
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Captain von Trapp posted:Those of us of a more conservative bent tend to be open to the idea that not only are we not the apex You really could fool me. I mean, you're right there, right now, saying we're 'going backwards' in the same pair of sentences you're decrying trying to measure teleological progress (because we do agree, history is not teleological).
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Jul 24, 2021 17:14
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Night10194 posted:You really could fool me. I mean, you're right there, right now, saying we're 'going backwards' in the same pair of sentences you're decrying trying to measure teleological progress (because we do agree, history is not teleological). We would generally view that as a category error. Its not that history has no direction at any given moment; it's that we're measuring direction with respect to an external fixed point. The Whigs are measuring with respect to a standard subject to change, a compass always pointing in the direction of travel.
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Jul 24, 2021 17:41
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Ancient Greeks: oh today is so morally corrupt unlike the pure world of the heroes Ancient Romans: oh today is so morally corrupt unlike the pure world of the founders Medieval Europeans: oh today is so morally corrupt unlike the pure world of the Greeks and romans Colonial Americans: oh today is so morally corrupt unlike the pure world of the knights and chivalry Modern Americans: oh today is so morally corrupt unlike the pure world of the founding fathers. This is only the western world, not even getting into Hindus, East Asian societies etc all of which do the exact same thing.
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Jul 24, 2021 18:19
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BIG FLUFFY DOG posted:Ancient Greeks: oh today is so morally corrupt unlike the pure world of the heroes Yeah, that's the point I'm making. Declaring 'oh we're going backwards, the past was better' is about as foolish as blanket declarations it was inferior.
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Jul 24, 2021 18:42
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BIG FLUFFY DOG posted:Ancient Greeks: oh today is so morally corrupt unlike the pure world of the heroes I think this is precisely the problem, you were right until the last part. Modern Americans: oh today is so morally corrupt unlike the pure world of tomorrow and the day after that and the day after that. The history of the human race is looking backward and honoring those to whom we owe everything. The modern ideal is to spit on our ancestors for being narrow-minded bigots. Of course, our grandchildren will think the same of us because we're doubtlessly all doing something horrible right now and deserve scorn. Maybe the Greeks who memorized the words of the Poets and lived by them, or Confucius trying to reinstate the virtue of the sage-kings, is the proper way to live and we've gone astray with rampant egoism to justify a shallow, selfish existence. And yes this is a sensitive nerve for me. I've seen too many people who tell me they don't have to read and learn from [X] because "did you now they were a misogynist/racist/etc.?" I honestly hate it. NikkolasKing fucked around with this message at 18:53 on Jul 24, 2021 |
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Jul 24, 2021 18:47
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NikkolasKing posted:The history of the human race is looking backward and honoring those to whom we owe everything. The modern ideal is to spit on our ancestors for being narrow-minded bigots. Analyzing history does not constitute 'spitting on people for being narrow-minded bigots'. I can respect George Washington for being willing to step aside after 8 years to try to prevent himself being president for life and for refusing the possibility of becoming a king while saying slavery is a monstrous institution and its legacy has done great harm. The past is another place. Its people are just people. They're not epic heroes on a pedestal. They did more than one thing with their lives. E: This is a sensitive topic for ME, as well. Treating the past as epic heroes who can do no wrong does no more honor to their legacy. Acknowledging them as people, who were pushed and pulled in many directions, who sometimes did more than ever could be expected but who also fell prey to human fallibility, sin, participated in terrible things and practices (that we all might have, had we been in the circumstances that led them to them! We don't know!) does far more honor to the events of the past than whitewashing it. Night10194 fucked around with this message at 18:55 on Jul 24, 2021 |
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Jul 24, 2021 18:53
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There's a lot of people unable to separate the good from the bad. In their view George Washington would be totally irredeemably evil regardless of any good precedents he set. It's become very common nowadays.
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Jul 24, 2021 18:55
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NikkolasKing posted:The modern ideal is to spit on our ancestors for being narrow-minded bigots. The thing to me personally is, when I hear someone out in the world making noises like "gee, remember when things were just more, moral and virtuous?" it feels like if I scratch them with my fingernail, the backing behind that sentence is "Women had fewer options in life, and the queers knew their place or had not yet been invented." I would be genuinely, authentically, swear-to-every-Buddha-I-mean-it interested in hearing what aspects of moral behavior, leaving aside increasing rights and lack of restrictions for minority groups, have been in decline in your opinions in the last few decades. I can think of a couple of big ones - primarily rooted in the ascendance of various oligarchic economic ideas, and perhaps the behavior of people engaging with very new technologies such as social media - but they do not seem to be what I myself encounter, when people talk about moral decline, or the prospect that we have some things 'wrong' and need to, potentially, move back to previous conceptions.
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Jul 24, 2021 19:05
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Nessus posted:It would be very easy to turn this one into a laudatory thing about the modern day - only now have we gotten to the point where we are willing to actually criticize the visions of our ancestors rather than, at most, selectively choosing which strand of history was the True Golden Age. Oh this started way longer than decades ago. Modernity is its own very well-studied phenomenon in human history. The inverting of age-old virtues and vices is a good one. Keynes sums it up in a beautiful quote: “When the accumulation of wealth is no longer of high social importance, there will be great changes in the code of morals. We shall be able to rid ourselves of many of the pseudo-moral principles which have hag-ridden us for two hundred years, by which we have exalted some of the most distasteful of human qualities into the position of the highest virtues. We shall be able to afford to dare to assess the money-motive at its true value. The love of money as a possession — as distinguished from the love of money as a means to the enjoyments and realities of life — will be recognized for what it is, a somewhat disgusting morbidity, one of those semi-criminal, semi-pathological propensities which one hands over with a shudder to the specialists in mental disease.” A loss of faith in Authority and accepting no authority other than yourself is another big one. Turns out random people don't always know what's best for them, who knew. Except everybody before the advent of liberalism and the rejection of having a common good for all mankind. And I share wholeheartedly your technological criticisms. It has exacerbated the loss of community and tradition and authority to apocalyptic levels. I'm very much a Doomer as they call us so pejoratively for recognizing simple facts. If you think my problems with the world we live in is due to minority rights or whatever, that's definitely not it. More like...Anti-Maskers. Anti-Maskers are really "wonderful" in the sense they embody everything about why the world we live in is trash. They are the apotheosis of rejecting authority and thinking only of your own narrow want while proclaiming your actions to be righteous. That sums up the world quite well in my opinion. Plato wrote about how a society can be so corrupt and vile that to participate in it can corrupt your soul. So, far from the "everything is political so you have no choice but to engage" idea of Justice said by randos online, Plato would say that Justice demands that you disengage from this cesspit. NikkolasKing fucked around with this message at 19:32 on Jul 24, 2021 |
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Jul 24, 2021 19:26
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The problem with 'authority' is agreeing on what just authority is, how much power it should have, and also what you do for recourse if that authority proves to be untenable or deleterious. These are not, in fact, simple things where there has been a great degradation in the love of authority, either. Plenty of those anti-maskers love an Authority. It's not one you care for, but they love it and obey it and get their orders from it. What then?
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Jul 24, 2021 19:29
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NikkolasKing posted:If you think my problems with the world we live in is due to minority rights or whatever, that's definitely not it. More like...Anti-Maskers. Anti-Maskers are really "wonderful" in the sense they embody everything about why the world we live in is trash. They are the apotheosis of rejecting authority and thinking only of your own narrow want while proclaiming your actions to be righteous. That sums up the world quite well in my opinion. Night10194 posted:The problem with 'authority' is agreeing on what just authority is, how much power it should have, and also what you do for recourse if that authority proves to be untenable or deleterious. These are not, in fact, simple things where there has been a great degradation in the love of authority, either. Plenty of those anti-maskers love an Authority. It's not one you care for, but they love it and obey it and get their orders from it. What then? What does seem like it may be, if not unique to now, a difference from the common rack and run of the past, IS: People will submit to authority but will also have a framework in which this is not submission to authority (as opposed to 'I am submitting to a wise and loving authority, who I also love.')
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Jul 24, 2021 19:42
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Also the idea that there was some glorious age of authority in the past where everything was just is uh. Really funny if you actually read history. What about all the civil wars? All the plotting and jockeying? All the succession struggles? It's like reading someone who earnestly believes monarchism was stable as a system of government. Instability is not some invention of the present.
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Jul 24, 2021 20:32
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BIG FLUFFY DOG posted:Ancient Greeks: oh today is so morally corrupt unlike the pure world of the heroes Yeah, this is a human tendency too. Times and places aren't all morally equivalent. Some are better, some are worse. Realistically, all have fallen short of the glory of God. Even so, it's a fair bit of hubris to assume that specifically the norms of the college-educated white managerial class of North America and Western Europe in 2021 is the best. Nessus posted:I would be genuinely, authentically, swear-to-every-Buddha-I-mean-it interested in hearing what aspects of moral behavior, leaving aside increasing rights and lack of restrictions for minority groups, have been in decline in your opinions in the last few decades. Really if we're talking the last few decades specifically, there are things that have been improving. Divorce is down, for instance. But on a broader view I don't think there's many people of any belief who don't think something hasn't gone badly off the rails recently. The least controversial example I can think of is murder, pretty universally considered the big bad of sins, and it's sharply up. Night10194 posted:The problem with 'authority' is agreeing on what just authority is, how much power it should have, and also what you do for recourse if that authority proves to be untenable or deleterious. These are not, in fact, simple things where there has been a great degradation in the love of authority, either. Plenty of those anti-maskers love an Authority. It's not one you care for, but they love it and obey it and get their orders from it. What then? I have a hypothesis that the one fundamental difference between left and right is whether or not one believes authority is ontologically A Thing. The differences between groups on the left are in how they decide right and wrong in the absence of a single True Authority, and the differences between groups on the right are in how they decide what/who the True Authority is. I don't want to turn this into D&D, so I'm not putting this out there as a thesis I'm married to defending - it's just an idea.
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Jul 24, 2021 20:36
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I follow God because I believe in God and because I wish to be better to the extent that a human can be better, even knowing that I will always fail to live up to the example of Christ. Which is also why the sins of the past, the imperfection of all humans who have ever lived, and the moments when they managed to do just and compassionate and good things despite all of it and despite all of their failings matter so much to me.
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Jul 24, 2021 20:39
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Captain von Trapp posted:Really if we're talking the last few decades specifically, there are things that have been improving. Divorce is down, for instance. But on a broader view I don't think there's many people of any belief who don't think something hasn't gone badly off the rails recently. The least controversial example I can think of is murder, pretty universally considered the big bad of sins, and it's sharply up. Is this about actual events, or about the perceptions of those events? And, to also be fair, some of those events can change: if, for instance, there are fewer total murders, but the change comes from 'occasional crimes of passion or property theft' down to 'almost none of those, but periodic spree killings for no reason', there is a quantifiable difference even if there are fewer total people being murdered. Nessus fucked around with this message at 20:48 on Jul 24, 2021 |
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Jul 24, 2021 20:43
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Personally speaking, this is the best of all possible times and places for me to be alive, because it meets the very important criteria of "least likely to die of some random disease"*, "least likely to freeze/starve to death", and "least likely to be punished for being in a romantic relationship". There's a hell of a lot you can criticise about today's society and oh boy do I have some opinions on that**, but in terms of fulfilling the lower tiers of Maslow's Hierarchy of Needs it's way up there. *yes, I know covid, but overall! **this is not the thread to go into my personal thoughts on the word "anarcho-communism"
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Jul 24, 2021 20:52
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  I always love posting these. The Right and Left can come together to hate this moron. And I have a paper disputing his "facts and figures" that supposedly show how violence has decreased. Liberals have a (conveniently) narrow understanding of violence. I think we're getting way off-track, though. To try and bring this back to religion, in spite of my still searching for a faith, I feel like I have found at least some peace of mind in my studies, much more so than when I used to look to religion and politics for some feeling of..."Belonging." It's why, in spite of my opinion of the state of the world, I'm pretty at peace.
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Jul 24, 2021 20:56
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Captain von Trapp posted:For a Christian there's basically three approaches to moral difficulties in the bible. I found Alec Ryrie’s lecture on how Protestant Christianity did a complete reversal over its previous beliefs on slavery over the coarse of the 18th and 19th centuries to be well worth listening to or reading a transcript of. (I’ll quote his conclusion here) https://www.gresham.ac.uk/lectures-and-events/how-we-learned-that-slavery-is-wrong quote:For many Christians, to condemn a previously held orthodoxy would be deeply problematic. Any church which claims to be able to define doctrine authoritatively is going to have trouble admitting that it has made a mistake. But for Protestants is easier. Even instinctively conservative Protestants know that being sinful means being fallible. They will tear up and discard cherished interpretations of the Bible if they have to. And as the abolitionists’ confrontation with Scripture show, when what they think is the heart of the gospel is at stake, they will not let the Bible stand in their way.
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Jul 24, 2021 21:19
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personally i think the most egregious example of ethical failure from the past few decades has been the knowing destruction of the ecosystem and environment to the extent there's a real risk of human civilization collapsing in the coming century (not to mention all the mass extinctions and so on) without bothering to come up with a sane timely plan to avert disaster. imo this is a symptom of the dominant materialist ideology (obv older than a few decades) where living in comfort at the expense of future generations is a rational, if selfish (but selfishness can also easily be justified as rational) choice. if people realized they would be coming back to live with the consequences (as per buddhism) or, i assume (+ may well be wrong) in christianity outside the fringe nutters who want to bring about the apocalypse, had a moral responsibility to look after gods green earth or at least would be facing some justice in the afterlife for roasting it and its contents i genuinely think things would be different with respect to this. another symptom is consumerism which in buddhist terms, i think it's fair to say, encourage and bring out the mental afflictions most notably sensual craving (look at the advertising industry to start with) and as a buddhist i think any society that encourages people to sprint in the opposite direction to liberation is unethical by nature. i think this has got worse in the last few decades (but due to tech mostly)
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Jul 24, 2021 21:35
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Sorry to interrupt, I just wanted to update those that were following. My aunt is doing better and they think she can be discharged middle of the week with aftercare. Thank you for your prayers.
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Jul 24, 2021 22:03
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Thirteen Orphans posted:Sorry to interrupt, I just wanted to update those that were following. My aunt is doing better and they think she can be discharged middle of the week with aftercare. Thank you for your prayers. I am very happy to hear that. I hope things continue to go well. zhar posted:personally i think the most egregious example of ethical failure from the past few decades has been the knowing destruction of the ecosystem and environment to the extent there's a real risk of human civilization collapsing in the coming century (not to mention all the mass extinctions and so on) without bothering to come up with a sane timely plan to avert disaster. imo this is a symptom of the dominant materialist ideology (obv older than a few decades) where living in comfort at the expense of future generations is a rational, if selfish (but selfishness can also easily be justified as rational) choice. if people realized they would be coming back to live with the consequences (as per buddhism) or, i assume (+ may well be wrong) in christianity outside the fringe nutters who want to bring about the apocalypse, had a moral responsibility to look after gods green earth or at least would be facing some justice in the afterlife for roasting it and its contents i genuinely think things would be different with respect to this. I've recently been very taken by the thought of Blaise Pascal. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t7oXjv8zi-c He has a lot to say about what you just noted, and his opinions resonate strongly with my Buddhist sympathies.
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Jul 24, 2021 22:45
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This is the best time for you and me to be alive because these are the circumstances God has placed us in, which means we have the graces we need to save our souls in these circumstances. Pining for 2015 or 1962 or 1917 is a trap.
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Jul 24, 2021 23:55
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Nessus posted:Well, about that. Has murder been going sharply up in the long term? In the last year, in the US, it has been, but it went down in the 1990s and stayed fairly flat until the last two years. (I cannot speak of other countries meaningfully.) e: and regional trends as well; if you cannot experience or perceive something, in many ways it is not real to your experience. The murder rate in the US is easy to find and has objectively trended downward from a peak in the early 1990s. Violent crime of all sorts is down to just over half of what it was then. The increase in the last year is barely a blip comparatively. Much like advertising can create desire, misrepresentation and sensationalism in reporting creates an impression that does not line up with the facts to produce a desired response in the public. After all, more people watch the news and talk about it if you tell them the sky is falling. That's not to say that things are -good-. There is a ton wrong, and much of it can be laid directly at the feet of the disregard for consequences and desire for monetary profit and social control on the part of the wealthy and powerful. Liquid Communism fucked around with this message at 00:55 on Jul 25, 2021 |
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Jul 25, 2021 00:50
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Nessus posted:I would be genuinely, authentically, swear-to-every-Buddha-I-mean-it interested in hearing what aspects of moral behavior, leaving aside increasing rights and lack of restrictions for minority groups, have been in decline in your opinions in the last few decades. While by no means the OP on this one, I would suggest that (perspective American): 1. Decline in sense of community (caused by a number of factors including increased presence of minorities but also land use patterns such as suburbs); 2. Corresponding decline in sense of duties owed to the community; 3. Corresponding lack of noblesse oblige in our super wealthy (Carnegie gave away $350 million before 1919, in 1919 or earlier dollars); and 4. Corresponding tendency towards "gently caress you, got mine" approaches towards the poor (those with zero coats, if you will). And also something about a decline in acceptance of the facts that (a) other people - call them experts - might know more than you about an issue and be able to provide advice better than your gut instinct; and (b) the government might have some of these experts. These probably all boil down into an increase in selfish natures.
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Jul 25, 2021 03:28
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Nessus posted:private necrohomoerotic members-only pseudonymous comedy and discussion forum
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Jul 25, 2021 04:50
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ulmont posted:While by no means the OP on this one, I would suggest that (perspective American): The acceptance that last one is complicated in the US by one of our major political parties being openly opposed to the concept of government and engaging in deliberate sabotage of social institutions in the name of accelerationism, while the other talks a good game but is completetly ineffectual and indirectly in the pay of the same monied interests as the first. It's the same reason the Church faces a crisis of trust; when you openly protect bad actors and seek to avoid justice, you lose the public's trust.
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Jul 25, 2021 04:59
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I spoke this last Shabbat about loving one another with baseless love to rectify our sin of baseless hatred. I love this quote I had the opportunity to share: Rav Kook (Shemonah Kevatzim, vol. I, sec. 163) posted:Listen to me, my people! I speak to you from my soul, from within my innermost soul. I call out to you from the living connection by which I am bound to all of you, and by which all of you are bound to me. I feel this more deeply than any other feeling: that only you — all of you, all of your souls, throughout all of your generations — you alone are the meaning of my life. In you I live. In the aggregation of all of you, my life has that content that is called ‘life.’ Without you, I have nothing. All hopes, all aspirations, all purpose in life, all that I find inside myself – these are only when I am with you. I need to connect with all of your souls. I must love you with a boundless love....
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Jul 25, 2021 05:03
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WrenP-Complete posted:I spoke this last Shabbat about loving one another with baseless love to rectify our sin of baseless hatred. I love this quote I had the opportunity to share: That's gorgeous ! Thank you
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Jul 25, 2021 21:47
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BIG FLUFFY DOG posted:Ancient Greeks: oh today is so morally corrupt unlike the pure world of the heroes In Uruk he built walls, a great rampart, and the temple of blessed Eanna for the god of the firmament Anu, and for Ishtar the goddess of love. Look at it still today: the outer wall where the cornice runs, it shines with the brilliance of copper; and the inner wall, it has no equal. Touch the threshold, it is ancient. Approach Eanna the dwelling of Ishtar, our lady of love and war, the like of which no latter-day king, no man alive can equal. "Those ancient days" have always been greater. Basically a universal law of human thought.
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Jul 29, 2021 04:40
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Which is even reflected in certain religions. Hinduism has the Kali Yuga (a concept borrowed by some Buddhists) and Japanese Buddhism has Mappo. There are probably other examples, too.
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Jul 29, 2021 12:38
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Did anybody post this in here? I didn't see it. It's a breakdown of Census results or religion in America. https://www.prri.org/research/2020-census-of-american-religion/ quote:The Rise of the “Nones” Slows There's a ton more but this interests me most. I've often heard it touted by a certain type of person that it is conservative churches which maintain their congregation and even grow while, say, the Anglicans are collapsing because of their liberal ways like being okay with gays and porn Never really know what to say to all that. But it doesn't look like Evangelicals are doing great according to this.
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Jul 30, 2021 17:09
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Just to clarify, PRRI is posting their own survey results. It's not done by the Census Bureau, which never asks about religion so far as I can tell.
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Jul 30, 2021 17:37
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I would not be surprised if part of the figure for white evangelicals, Catholics, and UUs has a similar underlying reason of church-as-political-domain impacting the figures. I have some experience with the operations of UU churches, and they are indeed heavily skewed towards older white liberals/progressives/leftists. There is often not a lot of religious ministry going on.
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Jul 30, 2021 18:00
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I thought it was pretty well-known that evangelicals aren’t doing too great given that their congregations are old as poo poo. That’s a huge reason why White evangelicals especially have been going ballistic in terms of Christian nationalism lately. This is the first time in all of their lifetimes where they actually feel genuinely threatened and they have no idea how to deal with it.
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Jul 30, 2021 18:07
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