punishedkissinger posted:

what does proof of work give us that couldnt be done without burning barrels of gasoline?

kw0134 posted:

Another Seraph special, where he throws a bunch of links which have little actual relationship to what he posted and pretends he's made a masterstroke of debating as opposed to proving beyond all doubt the gish galloping he's pulling on the forum.

LordSaturn posted:

this contrasts interestingly with your avatar tbh

magusperivallon posted:

...A key component of Bitcoin's network and an opportunity to disrupt the banking system long enough to make transformative change with respect to the climate. Reason being that finance now dominates our economic system and with things like Citizens United, the tight network of bankers between the central bank and the private banks and the finance sector's influence over Congress and the White House, we have little chance at transforming society through electoral politics. The first part of my essay goes over this, I think you'd get a lot of reading that.

Thank you for asking.

Twelve by Pies posted:

Instead of wasting power from fossil fuels for their completely useless bullshit one day buttcoin might waste power from solar or wind for their completely useless bullshit and this is somehow better than just not wasting power on completely useless bullshit in the first place.

If I drive around my block five hundred times a day and waste gas it would be beyond loving idiotic to claim that I was helping to push a societal change to renewable energy if I switched to an electric vehicle and drove around my block five hundred times a day.

The only way buttcoin is helping to "promote renewable energy" is by burning up the limited supply of fossil fuels we have even faster so that the planet won't have a choice but to use renewable energy because there won't be any other type of energy left.

magusperivallon posted:

LanceHunter posted:

Oh, so you mean the miner network is so powerful that it use that power for other important computational tasks?
-- No, the network can literally only compute hashes for blocks

Okay, so then that means that they can process a whole lot of blocks very quickly and lots of transactions very quickly?
-- No, there is a hard cap on the number of new blocks every 10 minutes, and thus a hard cap on the number of transactions.

A computer scientist posted:

In a theoretical sense, final settlement doesn't exist at all on any blockchain. What settlement assurance you do get from a blockchain is a function of the energy an attacker would have to expend in order to rewrite your transactions or spend their own coins twice. But with enough electricity, any blockchain can be rewritten by hostile miners who want to go back in time, change or delete transactions, then re-mine everything that happened up until the present.

What keeps hostile miners from doing so is the electricity they will need to overpower the friendly miners and satisfy the proof of work difficulty of the blocks they are trying to rewrite. So let's consider the imaginary example of Coin X. It features 5 second block times and claims to be "faster than Bitcoin." So you download the Coin X node software, or a Coin X wallet for your phone, and withdraw your Coin X coins from an exchange. 5 seconds later you get a "confirmed" notification because the Coin X miners have included your transaction into a block.

But despite what the software says, in reality you have no assurance that this transaction can't be rolled back until a significant amount of electricity has been spent by the entire Coin X network to make it prohibitively difficult for an attacker to erase your transaction. In Bitcoin it is common practice to wait 6 blocks for settlement assurance. With 10 minute blocks, 6 blocks is just Bitcoin-speak for "about an hour." It means that your transaction is buried under the electricity consumption of the entire network for about an hour.

So how much electricity is that? Well no one knows exactly how much energy Bitcoin miners consume, but the estimates are anywhere between 55 to 120 Terawatt hours per year. So let's take the average and use 87.5 TwH. 87.5 Terawatt hours = 87,500,000,000 Kwh hours

There are 8760 hours in a year

That equals 9,988,584.47 Kilowatts used in 1 hour.

This amount of expended energy is what secures your transaction. Not the block time. Not the "confirmed" icon. Not even cryptography.

So let's compare Bitcoin to Coin X. Let's say for the sake of argument that Coin X has 1 megawatt of constant power on it's network. This would be less than Bitcoin, but still it would be a lot of electricity. 1 Megawatt = 1,000 kilowatts. 1,000 kilowatts for 24 hours is 24,000 kilowatts.

So in order to get a Coin X security guarantee that is equivalent to Bitcoin, you'd have to wait for 7,191,781 Coin X blocks, which would take 416.19 days, or 1.14 years. Last year, Bitcoin moved anywhere between $5 billion to $48 billion in value every day. A network moving that much value requires the fastest and most trustworthy settlement assurances possible. Bitcoin provides this through the way miners consume energy on the network.

This is why any time you read about "faster block times" you know it's 100 percent pure bullshit.

tango alpha delta posted:

i only wish someone who is actually good with money would call you out on your bullshit, seraph.

drk posted:

Christ, what an rear end in a top hat

That same computer scientist posted:

To focus on whether Bitcoiners are nice or not displays a lack of self-awareness. You own Bitcoin so I don't include you in this critique but for anyone using it as a reason not to buy Bitcoin they are being childish and naive. If Person A is thirsty, and Person B owns water, Person A still needs the water even if Person B is mean. Thirsty people need water just like people who earn money through their labor need a savings technology.

Bitcoin is here to empower people with a savings technology that cannot be stolen by the state. The state will not be nice when this issue comes to a head, and I think it will. For any cryptocurrency to survive it must have a chance of thriving even with the most powerful adversaries on Earth trying to slit its throat.

In such an environment Ethereum has zero chance of successfully contravening the wishes of the state. Ethereum is a corporate playground. I have no problem with corporations. I own a very small corporation. There is a place in the world for corporations. But make no mistake Ethereum is just a corporation, welded to the mast of the US dollar. Proof of Stake derives all of its value from the existing monetary system, and is therefore no threat to it. Plus Ethereum is too large and unwieldy to resist the state. Ethereum will play ball with all regulators in all jurisdictions. It will continue to exist, I grant you that, but it will only exist with conditions favorable to the state. And when the state needs a bailout, Ethereum will be there to bail.

Waltzing Along posted:

Tether info:

People were freaking out when it hit $2000 about six months ago. But it has tripled since then? This is crazy.

Anyone know why it has been skyrocketing all year? It's starting to look like it might actually stick around. Which is going to make all the naysayers look pretty drat stupid. Especially the ones who could have bought in when it was "cheap." Especially in comparison to where it is now. gently caress, you could have tripled your $$$ in six months. That just doesn't happen very often.

I've heard that bitcoin is being used in many places in Japan now. Apparently businesses there look at it as a legitimate currency. Is this happening elsewhere? Is the US just slow to catch up with the rest of the world (again?)

Spatial posted:

You guys seem really down on Bitcoin, but it's really brought freedom and opportunity to many people. For example people who hack into hospitals and take their patient records hostage now have the freedom to be paid their ransom in a discreet and convenient way. That wasn't practical before Bitcoin!

quote:

In the United States, there are approximately 1000 deaths per year, as a result of electrical injuries. Of these, approximately 400 are due to high-voltage electrical injuries, and lightning causes 50 to 300. There are also at least 30,000 shock incidents per year which are non-fatal.

kw0134 posted:

They've discovered the essential definition of currency. Give them a round of applause.

Powder keg posted:

They'd need to register an account here first. Convincing them to do so would be no easy task for a community that continues to spew so much bile about the protocol which such a person would ipso facto be a passionate supporter of. The reality you somehow continue to actively avoid accepting is that the people who most deeply understand money are the ones capitulating to Bitcoin with the least hesitation and the greatest alacrity.

magusperivallon posted:

1. I am not Seraph.

magusperivallon posted:

Moreover, if you read my original post and understand my argument, you'll see that what I am arguing is that Bitcoin has value and therefore the use of energy is worthwhile. Data centers, by comparison, use 1-3% of our electricity consumption globally. Mining uses around 0.31%. Most people have no problem with energy consumption so long as it means their cat videos live on forever.

tango alpha delta posted:

lol, i'm already here. i survived the worst pandemic in a century, kept my home and my vehicles and remained debt free. i am very, very good at managing money and there is no loving way i will ever touch bitcoin.

tango alpha delta posted:

lol, you are also using ipso facto completely wrong in this context.

Powder keg posted:

I won't dispute your money management expertise. I also don't care, don't think it matters at all, and made no claims about money management in the first place.

I made a claim about a hypothetical person's understanding of money the technology. Which is all it is, a technology. It is perhaps the most politically-charged technology in history, but ultimately, it's just a tool like any other. It has no special inherent properties that imply it must be controlled by nation states. And soon it won't be, ever again.

I'm not. To be clear, I'm saying anyone with a deep historically contextualized understanding of money would ipso facto (by that very fact) be quick to understand Bitcoin's value proposition, philosophical importance, and historical significance.

tango alpha delta posted:

lol, you aren't interested in any kind of discussion; you are trying to hold court with an audience that very clearly resents your arrogance. c'mon, seraph, you are turning 37 pretty soon and you still haven't learned how to read the room, man.

you should probably leave now.

tango alpha delta posted:

china killed bitcoin.

tango alpha delta posted:

it's dying.

jokes posted:

E: gently caress you seraph

Powder keg posted:

That would be incredibly disrespectful and discompassionate of me. After all you've done for me - all the joy this place has brought me over the years.

jokes posted:

Bitcoin/Tether is so stupid

How stupid is it

It’s so stupid it’s just a currency-thing backed by a drawer full of random cords owned by an old engineer who never went to college. Only you can’t actually see the drawer and have to trust the engineer’s word that his drawer is full of cords. And every time you ask him if his drawer is still full of cords he burns down 10 square miles of Amazon rainforest.

This is good for Bitcoin because the banks use paper and paper comes from trees so Bitcoin is fighting back by burning the forests down

tango alpha delta posted:

seraph, trying to force us to accept you is a very, very strange way to show your gratitude. that ship has sailed. there is absolutely nothing you can do to make me accept you so please gently caress off.

tango alpha delta posted:

i'm just scrubbing through some MQ9 Reaper drone surveillance footage of seraph and it looks like these long rambling posts coincide with his roommate 'leaving town' for awhile.

Powder keg posted:

Readers, if you ever find yourself arriving at this level of deranged violent power fantasy, consider seeking professional help.

tango alpha delta posted:

lol, let the gaslighting begin!

tango alpha delta posted:

i'm just scrubbing through some MQ9 Reaper drone surveillance footage of seraph

quote:

It's not a video game.

This is important to understand because drones are often portrayed as turning killing "into a video game". But that's not an accurate analogy. At a purely ergonomic level, the controls of an MQ-9 Reaper drone are actually neither as sophisticated nor as sensitive as state-of-the-art gaming controllers. The MQ-1 Predator, on which the MQ-9 Reaper is based, was rushed into service after 9/11 and typical military aircraft testing and development was not carried out because of time constraints. As a result, the controls were not developed to be as user-friendly as they will be in the Reaper's successors.

More important is the human dimension. When Reaper crews have followed someone for days or weeks, their target is not just pixels on a screen but a living human being. Operators watch targets spend time with family and friends and even playing with their children. Crews, commanders and image analysts also continue to watch from above after a missile or bomb strike, conducting battle damage assessment. They see the bits of bodies being collected and taken for burial. They see grieving, devastated family members. And they know it is no game with a reset button.

Life and death decisions

As a result, operating a drone carries real risks. For one thing, terrorists have tried to target Reaper pilots and published a hit-list. But more prevalent is the psychological risk in repeatedly witnessing traumatising events and lethal strikes in close-up detail.

What is it like to be a military drone operator? When waging war becomes more like a game of Pacman, what does it do the minds of the people joggling the joysticks in front of computer screens? A senior Reaper commander has described the impact of this as "far greater than it ever was with a manned cockpit". These psychological effects are not yet fully understood but the risk is there. As one sensor operator I interviewed said: "If anybody on the Reaper fleet says it doesn't affect them, then they're lying. It does. It has to."

Remotely piloted aircraft like the Reaper will provide key air force capabilities for generations to come. For people to debate this technology in a useful way, they need to know what they can and cannot do. And understand that their governments are not using autonomous drones to kill random victims. Human operators are making life and death decisions with huge consequences for everyone involved.

Powder keg posted:

No, I'm afraid I owe you this. It's just basic human decency.

tango alpha delta posted:

lol, Reapers are flying over New York all the time. it's pretty loving easy to add one more task if you know who to talk to.

Somfin posted:

This is some gross, creepy poo poo.

Super Foul Egg posted:

Talking poo poo about any faith-based operation (such as religion, or Star Citizen) on a public forum means it's just a matter of time before the Preachers and Evangelists burst in to show you that their particular set of brainwires are arranged perfectly and if you just listen to them bombard you with conflicting information for several hours at a moment of personal weakness they too can show you the light*. I can fully believe Seraph's pulled at least one other cryptonerd from whatever goblin bunker they live in but unless they intro-post like human beings it might as well be two of him.

Seraph! I noticed in one of your recent addled fugues you posted a bunch of links to a pop psychology podcast in an attempt to blanket-own all the humans who aren't you. Since you're a fan, go back to that content and listen super carefully to the recent episode about insecure narcissism, specifically the part where they talk about how people with those traits pathologically return to a place they were owned in a hopeless double-down of attempting to save face that ends with them (and everyone else) feeling markedly worse than if they'd just taken the L and hosed off. Sound familiar??

Powder keg posted:

You are, and forever will be, owned.

Super Foul Egg posted:

Then why doesn't it feel that way, no matter how many times you say it? No matter how many accounts you make?

Powder keg posted:

And you didn't. And you still won't. You are stubborn, you are arrogant, and you are wrong. And you will continue to be financially punished for your arrogance every day until the day you capitulate to Bitcoin.
You are, and forever will be, owned.

Ad by Khad posted:

let me be clear

gently caress off, seraph

tango alpha delta posted:

i'm not being financially punished at all.

tango alpha delta posted:

And now the final form of Seraph, naked, unchecked arrogance.

Pussy Pounder 9000 posted:

The year is 2435. Seraph84 surveys the desperate, knowledge-starved band of nocoiner stragglers laid out before him in the Bitcoin thread. Once their numbers were great, and their arguments sound. Now, they speak only in barely-literate gibberish. Like the anti-vaxxers before them, they were long ago banned from all educational facilities. They howl their mantra once again: "Bitcoin is heading for a crash back down to 3 trillion dollars per btc any moment now! You'll see, we'll get the last laugh!"

They are so sure of themselves. In 4 nanoseconds Seraph registers 40,000 new accounts, and begins the next stage of the 10,000 year forum war.

Powder keg posted:

Spoken like someone who doesn't understand opportunity cost. Or the cold, terrible, unforgiving nature of unchangeable programmatic scarcity.

tango alpha delta posted:

And now the final form of Seraph, naked, unchecked arrogance. your mask falls off pretty fast when people don't coddle you, doesn't it? you are not to be trusted. at all.

i'm not being financially punished at all. in fact i made money last week with my passive non bitcoin investments and will continue to do so for a very long time.

bitcoin is dead.