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betaraywil posted:This is a highly specific and lovely trope, yet two different shows used it identically and failed in the exact same, highly avoidable way. Ah, but portents that make the sanest women go mad are the very essence of the mystery box philosophy, the heart of the Star Trek franchise. Yes, it's actually a really lovely hack trope, but it's also incredibly easy to write and it fits the tone of the series in general, so why not?
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Jul 26, 2021 03:25
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FlamingLiberal posted:If you're talking about like Captain Braxton, he's from the 29th century Yeah, Disco Season 3, for all its many faults, very neatly places itself at the "end" of the known Star Trek timeline. All the stuff we've seen in prior shows is still valid, it's just that immediately after that ~All The Dilithium Goes Away~. infernal machines posted:Ah, but portents that make the sanest women go mad are the very essence of the mystery box philosophy, the heart of the Star Trek franchise. I've seen precisely one good Mystery Box season and that's Killjoys season 2; It doesn't pull the box away and act smug for another week, instead each episode builds on the mystery so you can legitimately figure out what's going on before the climax. Neddy Seagoon fucked around with this message at 05:17 on Jul 26, 2021 |
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Jul 26, 2021 05:14
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S06 of DS9 is my favorite so far i think. i love this vic fontaine episode so much. i feel like TNG tried similar stuff with the holodeck but it didn't land as well for me. i audibly gasped when Odo and Kira kissed which is not something i do often for a TV show
punishedkissinger fucked around with this message at 05:21 on Jul 26, 2021 |
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Jul 26, 2021 05:17
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Neddy Seagoon posted:I've seen precisely one good Mystery Box season and that's Killjoys season 2; It doesn't pull the box away and act smug for another week, instead each episode builds on the mystery so you can legitimately figure out what's going on before the climax. That is not a mystery box. If you're provided clues and a narrative that add up to the actual conclusion, that's just a plot. A mystery box is a carnival trick, there's no substance and no actual payoff because the entire purpose is to build suspense. Plot doesn't matter, characters don't matter, it's about the experience. Whatever you can do to engage the audience. Then, if you're slick enough, it ends and maybe people don't notice that nothing actually happened. infernal machines fucked around with this message at 05:23 on Jul 26, 2021 |
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Jul 26, 2021 05:20
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West World season 1 was a very good mystery box. I didn't watch any of the other seasons because, obviously, if the first mystery box contains a prize then statistically the rest of them won't.
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Jul 26, 2021 05:39
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Ghostlight posted:West World season 1 was a very good mystery box. I didn't watch any of the other seasons because, obviously, if the first mystery box contains a prize then statistically the rest of them won't. Season 2 kinda sucks because it's just spinning its wheels dealing with the fallout of season 1 and doesn't really have any identity of its own. Season 3 is actually pretty decent though and has its own thing going for it.
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Jul 26, 2021 05:46
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betaraywil posted:Maybe. Would *no human ever* be able to endure that? Come on. Yeah, it's probably best to take the audiovisual-only medium as the literal truth of the narrative rather than thinking for even a moment. It's absolutely insane to think that a show's imagery could represent anything other than that imagery being presented as a movie into a character's head. You came up with a take so goofy that I defended Picard. That's messed up.
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Jul 26, 2021 05:57
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punishedkissinger posted:S06 of DS9 is my favorite so far i think. i love this vic fontaine episode so much. i feel like TNG tried similar stuff with the holodeck but it didn't land as well for me. i audibly gasped when Odo and Kira kissed which is not something i do often for a TV show I liked the vic episodes and I'll fight anyone who disagrees
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Jul 26, 2021 07:23
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Mrs. Dash posted:I liked the vic episodes and I'll fight anyone who disagrees Vic would not approve of such wanton violence on his behalf. 
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Jul 26, 2021 08:30
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dr_rat posted:Vic would not approve of such wanton violence on his behalf. Mirror-Vic on the other hand, loved a good fight. And died doing what he loved, having existed onscreen for all of thirty seconds 
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Jul 26, 2021 09:43
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Earth accidentally created the founders, they were a normal race of solids when a marketing probe launched during the eugenics wars with samples of Capri Sun landed on their planet and upon drinking it they turned liquid
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Jul 26, 2021 11:53
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wait do people not like His Way???
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Jul 26, 2021 12:32
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Oops. Ive been a little behind on keeping up with yall, but i have been watching star trek. I got up to the vengenence factor before i had a mood swing so i will spare the details and post my thoughts. I like that Geordi is getting more plots. He is the optimist of the group and it shows in the stories. The episode with Dr. Braun was interesting. - 3 to 1. Thats the ratio for how many people riker boinks before troi can boink someone. The episode with the wormhole was just some great character work for her too. Overall, enjoying so far. Ill be more involved as i start to get a little better. If any other thoughts pop up, the thread will know.
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Jul 26, 2021 12:40
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Generations is fine.
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Jul 26, 2021 14:01
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You take that back.
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Jul 26, 2021 14:33
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Achmed Jones posted:It's absolutely insane to think that a show's imagery could represent anything other than that imagery being presented as a movie into a character's head. "This plot point is impossible to convey adequately in the medium for which it was written" is not the defense you seem to think it is. But I'm not even saying it's impossible to do this right. I'm saying that they hosed it up both times. Picard shows a series of stock video clips that gesture toward an AI uprising without saying anything in particular about it. The major problem with these scenes is that "X drives people instantaneously and violently mad" is a very tired trope, and this presentation--one that gestures toward the trope without particularizing it or putting any particular spin on it--is the laziest way to do it. Some things that could have been done: - Depicting a particular atrocity with specificity and detail in the style of, oh I don't know, a sick inversion of The Inner Light - Following the sequence with a gradual descent into madness, with the Zhat Vash initially thinking that they've gotten through the trauma, but displaying a growing distrust of replicators and poo poo until most of them can't handle modern life, like how mental illness actually works. (Like the second dinner scene in Alien) - A montage of lightly sketched atrocities to give the feeling that they are experiencing every death in sequence - A vision of the synth utopia and the profound xenophobia upon which it rests, with some indication that the "madness" is an implanted hatred for organic life (but that would have given away what was in the mystery box) Likewise, when Pike grabs the time crystal (which is a stupid loving name for a time crystal in this franchise btw) and sees the aftermath of the profound trauma, it's just cold. It's not that audio and visuals can't convey emotion and trauma, it's that these don't. He doesn't know how to relate to the trauma because he doesn't know why it's happening and we don't know how to relate to it because we know why it happened in the 60s but don't know what twist the mystery box has in store. Again this is a very easy fix if you give a gently caress: - Have him him in his wheelchair at the end looking in a mirror, unable to react for period (and the soundtrack does the work) so that we see him experience rather than witness the suffering - Make the guy he's following into an unsupportive character, perhaps a representation of his own insecurities. Make Pike face the fact that whatever convictions he has about the dignity of human life and the enduring power of hope, he will be an invalid, he would rather not be an invalid, and he's bothered by this in a way that challenges his Starfleet ideals - I don't loving know man, make him do anything actively during the sequence. Again he just has to sit through a short film anout mortality and then pick up the crystal. There is the vague threat that taking the crystal means picking the path that leads to the radiation burns, but the sense in which it leads that way is that otherwise Control snuffs out all life in the galaxy, including the guy picking. What choice is this? Without some specific reason that *this* character would hate being in a Captain Pike chair, there is no reason anyone in his position would refuse the crystal, making a mockery of the whole setup. It's a bad, lazy, creatively empty sequence deployed *twice*, and the problem is not that I don't understand the idea of audiovisual abstraction.
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Jul 26, 2021 14:47
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Some people rag on Vic but gently caress you if you don't enjoy It's Only a Paper Moon.
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Jul 26, 2021 14:56
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he's obvioiusly corny as hell but drat that episode worked for me
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Jul 26, 2021 14:57
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punishedkissinger posted:wait do people not like His Way??? It’s a very 90’s way to get two characters to hook up. The rest of Vic is good though if only because James Darren can be just so charming.
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Jul 26, 2021 14:59
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it completely makes sense to me that Odo would need a video game NPC to teach him how to talk to women.
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Jul 26, 2021 15:02
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Arcsquad12 posted:Some people rag on Vic but gently caress you if you don't enjoy It's Only a Paper Moon.
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Jul 26, 2021 15:03
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It really IS a Barnum and Bailey world
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Jul 26, 2021 15:28
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punishedkissinger posted:it completely makes sense to me that Odo would need a video game NPC to teach him how to talk to women. It does but the setup of tricking both people into hooking up mostly by everyone lying to everyone else until the very end was and is dumb.
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Jul 26, 2021 15:59
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Kibayasu posted:It does but the setup of tricking both people into hooking up mostly by everyone lying to everyone else until the very end was and is dumb. i liked it. you just gotta trust in the Vic, pally. is it ever explained why Bashir created a sentient hologram though? seems kinda hosed up tbh.
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Jul 26, 2021 16:06
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punishedkissinger posted:wait do people not like His Way??? The whole "tricking Odo into having a date with Kira" part is honestly painful for me watch. I like Vic and the rest of the episode though. Especially Nana Visitor's musical number.
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Jul 26, 2021 16:06
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punishedkissinger posted:i liked it. you just gotta trust in the Vic, pally. He didn't. He got it from his off screen friend who sent him all his holodeck poo poo like the Alamo and in the finale Zack Snyder's 300. I can't remember whether he specifically requested it be aware of it was a hologram or if that's just how his friend made it
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Jul 26, 2021 16:11
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punishedkissinger posted:i liked it. you just gotta trust in the Vic, pally. Bashir picked it up off a friend who decided that the best use for self aware artificial intelligence was to make a vegas lounge singer. Considering the Enterprise holodeck made a self aware Moriarty by accident it's a surprise that sentient AI in the Federation aren't more common. Bashir has weird friends who all have strange holodeck tastes. I wonder if he and Barclay share notes.
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Jul 26, 2021 16:13
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the episode even acknowledges how messed up it is at the end when Vic is like "could you please leave me running for a little longer? I would like to exist on my own terms for a few minutes"
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Jul 26, 2021 16:13
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Arcsquad12 posted:Some people rag on Vic but gently caress you if you don't enjoy It's Only a Paper Moon. Paper moon is great. Honestly my own problem with Vic is the same as I have with Ezri Dax. They were both introduced right near the end of season 7 and we spent a bunch of time getting introduced to them when they didn't have that much to do with the central plot. Other then paper moon, which was interesting as it was obviously just all about showing how Nog was dealing/not dealing with war trauma and vics importance to the episode was just through that, I mostly felt the two were just taking air from stuff in the show I was more interested in. Damar worked far better as a character suddenly given a lot of prominence very late in the series, one just because I think he was a far more interesting written character, but also because his character was so naturally involved with the central plot as well as DS9's broader themes. Just a great way to introduce a character really late into a show.
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Jul 26, 2021 16:17
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see, when you say "impossible to convey" meaning "impossible to literally depict" it proves my point. i stopped reading there cause you seem to just kinda not understand metaphor and stuff. i don't like that technique either but the proper criticism is that it's a dumb technique and lazy/bad directing, writing, etc - not that showing characters a brainmovie is driving people crazy and that just doesn't make sense as a plot point
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Jul 26, 2021 16:19
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i roll my eyes at vic cause i'm generally unenthused about 20th century stuff, but that's a minor thing and is basically a star trek tic at this point that i should prob stop complaining about. he's fine i guess. last night we watched the first part of the archer vs the nazis two parter. i am not very enthused about seasons 3 and 4 so far
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Jul 26, 2021 16:22
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Achmed Jones posted:i roll my eyes at vic cause i'm generally unenthused about 20th century stuff, but that's a minor thing and is basically a star trek tic at this point that i should prob stop complaining about. he's fine i guess. Archer vs The Nazis was a steaming pile of poo poo cliffhanger B&B dropped on the new producer's head as they handed over the reigns, they just went "oh and at the end of season 3 Archer wakes up with alien Nazis and the shuttle is in the 40s" and left him to figure out his way out of it.
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Jul 26, 2021 16:29
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Arcsquad12 posted:Bashir picked it up off a friend who decided that the best use for self aware artificial intelligence was to make a vegas lounge singer. Considering the Enterprise holodeck made a self aware Moriarty by accident it's a surprise that sentient AI in the Federation aren't more common.
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Jul 26, 2021 16:30
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Achmed Jones posted:last night we watched the first part of the archer vs the nazis two parter. i am not very enthused about seasons 3 and 4 so far What's not to love about Trek vs. Nazis? I'm in the minority here but I think ENT S3 is a very good season, due in no small part to Archer's post-9/11 redemption arc, where he eventually finds his higher angels ENT S4 is legit a top 10 season of Trek if you trim off the disappointment of the last two episodes
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Jul 26, 2021 16:33
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MikeJF posted:Archer vs The Nazis was a steaming pile of poo poo cliffhanger B&B dropped on the new producer's head as they handed over the reigns, they just went "oh and at the end of season 3 Archer wakes up with alien Nazis and the shuttle is in the 40s" and left him to figure out his way out of it. oh word, thanks for the info! new producer? that sounds promising - does it pull up from here?
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Jul 26, 2021 16:33
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i basically won't forgive the writers on s3 for "killing babies: the right choice" and/or "just gonna do my duty and step into the suicide booth so trip can live, thanks for bringing me into a hellish existence!" glad to hear that s4 is good though!
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Jul 26, 2021 16:36
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There's a new producer for season 4 who spends more time actually trying to be a prequel. Be careful, though, the old guy was still in charge above him and came back for the last episode, which was loving terrible. The new producer has said he wrote the one before that to be his real finale.
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Jul 26, 2021 16:41
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I think the best part about Vic Fontaine is the dude who designed a sentient hologram didn't think that was good enough and decided to throw in a randomly triggered hostile mob takeover.
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Jul 26, 2021 16:47
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Achmed Jones posted:oh word, thanks for the info! new producer? that sounds promising - does it pull up from here? Yeah season 4 starts to become a good show that makes full use of its premise but due to the low ratings of the last three seasons it got canceled. Also the new producer directed Dr Giggles so he’s really the best pick https://youtu.be/0QzF8zqe1sM
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Jul 26, 2021 16:52
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Cthulu Carl posted:I think the best part about Vic Fontaine is the dude who designed a sentient hologram didn't think that was good enough and decided to throw in a randomly triggered hostile mob takeover. I mean pretty much any holo program could be improved by randomly triggered hostile mob take overs.
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Jul 26, 2021 17:02
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