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alexandriao posted:I can't prove it, but I'll wager there's not exactly going to be any major difference in airplane technology in the next 900 years. This is a silly opinion because just in the hundred years that we've had powered flight there have been multiple revolutions in how exactly one can power that flight. The problem with Disco season 3 isn't that the premise is unbelievable through, it's all made up and it's fine to say "everything except dilithium regulated warp bubbles is either incredibly dangerous or too rare to be mass adopted", the problems are: 1. They weirdly double-tap the premise. All the dilithium is running out. Then before it runs out, the stuff in warp cores explodes and everyone gets scared of it. The first bit of the premise make Dilithium an analogy to fossil fuels, the second bit makes it an analogy to nuclear energy. 2. They betray the premise. Nobody is ever inconvenienced by the lack of dilithium. The relevance to the story seems to be to set up their post-apocalypse mad max scenario. 3. The season conclusion is 'actually if we just find more fossil fuels all our problems will go away'. Just on it's own terms if you ignore the terrible acting and writing and direction, the message of Disco Season 3 is 'guns and oil are great' which is the least star trek thing ever.
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Jul 26, 2021 13:35
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Taear posted:No you're totally misunderstanding what I mean there. Dilithium isn't the engine, it's the power. All the other ways they found to fly still need power. And yeah, it's 900 years later, but - you know what you said about steam power? Coal, fusion, etc - they all use steam generators. Antimatter is basically a maximum efficiency method to store power. Sometimes things stick around. They're probably reacting anti-iron instead of antideuterium or something, but still antimatter and dilithium is the convenient moderator. (It would've flowed better if they hadn't put in that they were looking for alternatives beforehand, though. If they'd stuck with 'dilithium was still being used because it was good at what it does and nobody had any reason not to use it' it would've made more sense, but them throwing in that it was already getting scarce before the burn and they were researching alternatives does make it more of a stretch they hadn't gotten alternative generation methods) (It also doesn't flow that they repeatedly showed that the 24th was getting near transwarp conduit tech, and having conduits powered at the point of generation instead of on the ship would've bypassed 90% of the issues in reconstructing the federation post-burn) (Also it very much doesn't help that the 30th century was always depicted as 'basically magic beyond your understanding in many ways', so it's really hard to reconcile that bit) MikeJF fucked around with this message at 13:44 on Jul 26, 2021 |
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Jul 26, 2021 13:37
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Alchenar posted:This is a silly opinion because just in the hundred years that we've had powered flight there have been multiple revolutions in how exactly one can power that flight. All of the alternatives in Discovery are distinctly not warp travel, in that there is no bending of spacetime around the ship to let it skip distance. They're totally different paradigms which may or may not require enough power that using dilithium to regulate the matter-antimatter reaction is still a requirement. Except the Romulan singularity drive, which I guess everyone forgot exists in all the fun of reunification?
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Jul 26, 2021 14:14
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BonHair posted:If only starships just some way to deflect matter in front of them when going fast. Maybe some sort of orb or similarly circular object?
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Jul 26, 2021 14:27
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MikeJF posted:Dilithium isn't the engine, it's the power. All the other ways they found to fly still need power. Dilithium was definitely the engine (or a part of the engine) not the fuel up until Discovery S3. The writers had no understanding of how they had previously established it. It has always been the mechanism by which the matter/anti-matter reaction is channeled to create the warp field. It's a component in the engine much like a piston or a fuel injector, not a fuel itself. They even had recrystalization tech in TNG-VOY period that more or less obviated the need to mine more of the stuff since you were no longer wearing out a component from your ship by using the warp drive. This is, of course, forgotten about.
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Jul 26, 2021 14:36
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Nitrousoxide posted:Dilithium was definitely the engine (or a part of the engine) not the fuel up until Discovery S3. The writers had no understanding of how they had previously established it. It has always been the mechanism by which the matter/anti-matter reaction is channeled to create the warp field. In TOS it was very vague and contradictory but in TNG-DS9-VOY it was consistently the means by which they mediated the matter-antimatter reaction itself, like an antimatter control rod. That reaction then created plasma which then energised the warp coils to create the field.
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Jul 26, 2021 14:40
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CAPTAIN CAPSLOCK posted:The last season of Killjoys was loving dire, especially the finale. Killjoys suddenly expected me to care about uhhh evil-Dutch and space-Lannister lady's relationship, even though they'd each committed cold blooded murder of much cooler characters. Killjoys had some fun goofy moments, but utterly sucked when it attempted pathos.
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Jul 26, 2021 14:44
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MikeJF posted:In TOS it was very vague and contradictory but in TNG-DS9-VOY it was consistently the means by which they mediated the matter-antimatter reaction itself, like an antimatter control rod. That reaction then created plasma which then energised the warp coils to create the field. They even went as far as having a scene in the TNG ep where Scotty gets rescued from the transporter stasis he's been in, very explicitly spelling this out, heh. Scotty: SONNY DO YE KNOW YER DILITHIUM CHAMBER IS OUT OF ALIGNMENT? Laforge: OH GOD DON'T TOUCH THAT YOU FOSSIL WE DON'T REPLACE DILITHIUM ANYMORE WE JUST RE-CRYSTALIZE IT YOU'RE ABOUT TO BLOW IT UP
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Jul 26, 2021 14:52
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Nitrousoxide posted:They even had recrystalization tech in TNG-VOY period that more or less obviated the need to mine more of the stuff since you were no longer wearing out a component from your ship by using the warp drive. This is, of course, forgotten about. Recrystalization technology is so forgotten about that it's literally one of the first thing talked about in the show - Burnham crashing Book's ship destroyed it's recrystalizer, it's the entire reason behind what they do in the first episode Dilithium is also not changed to be a type of fuel, it's a limited resource people constantly need to be obtaining more of because they're sticking little shards of it in recrystalizers and squeezing every inch of life out of them rather than having a brick of it that could either easily be replaced in TOS or last indefinitely in TNG.
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Jul 26, 2021 14:54
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Strom Cuzewon posted:Killjoys suddenly expected me to care about uhhh evil-Dutch and space-Lannister lady's relationship, even though they'd each committed cold blooded murder of much cooler characters. Killjoys had some fun goofy moments, but utterly sucked when it attempted pathos. The showrunner admitted that she wanted everyone to have a happy ending but you absolutely do not have to hand it to the mentally unstable genocidal tyrant and her ruthless amoral aristocrat girlfriend. That they not only had a happy ending, but arguably the best ending where they got everything they wanted and more was just completely  .
CAPTAIN CAPSLOCK fucked around with this message at 15:13 on Jul 26, 2021 |
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Jul 26, 2021 15:10
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CAPTAIN CAPSLOCK posted:The showrunner admitted that she wanted everyone to have a happy ending but you absolutely do not have to hand it to the mentally unstable genocidal tyrant and her ruthless amoral aristocrat girlfriend. That they not only had a happy ending, but arguably the best ending where they got everything they wanted and more was just completely Especially frustrating as their earlier relationship with them being evil pieces of poo poo was really fun. I loved hating those two! Don't try and make me actually love them!
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Jul 26, 2021 15:17
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All it would take is one actual trek nerd from this thread in the writers room to fix 98% of the continuity errors and similar bullshit
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Jul 26, 2021 15:50
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The Bloop posted:All it would take is one actual trek nerd from this thread in the writers room to fix 98% of the continuity errors and similar bullshit And it would take two to gently caress it all up again
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Jul 26, 2021 15:58
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Lizard Combatant posted:Lol, bullshit. Why is this unbelievable to you? Their idea of a "season" is literally just one episode's worth of plot stretched out over X episodes. I'm confident they have thought of a max of 5 episode ideas they could painfully stretch out.
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Jul 26, 2021 16:03
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Khanstant posted:Why is this unbelievable to you? Their idea of a "season" is literally just one episode's worth of plot stretched out over X episodes. I'm confident they have thought of a max of 5 episode ideas they could painfully stretch out. That's unfair, they have 4 episodes of good material and than crayon scribbles for endings.
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Jul 26, 2021 16:10
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Khanstant posted:Why is this unbelievable to you? Their idea of a "season" is literally just one episode's worth of plot stretched out over X episodes. I'm confident they have thought of a max of 5 episode ideas they could painfully stretch out. That wasn't true of season 1.
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Jul 26, 2021 16:11
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MikeJF posted:In TOS it was very vague and contradictory but in TNG-DS9-VOY it was consistently the means by which they mediated the matter-antimatter reaction itself, like an antimatter control rod. That reaction then created plasma which then energised the warp coils to create the field. As I understood it, it was much like a focal lens. It's referred to multiple times as being "dilithium crystals", and Geordi has to "recalibrate" the crystal from time to time. I assume the reason it's used is because it gives specific harmonics and has properties that allow it to regulate the power flow. Obviously, use in this fashion tends to degrade it, hence why they need it to be replaced now and then. It also explains why Voyager had to mine the stuff, normal engine use is not designed to go at warp 9.999 constantly, so the crystals degrade much much faster than normal. The Voyager reuse technology was simply cutting or reforming it so it could be reused, but it was always assumed that there's still degradation of the total amount of matter when you do this, so you can't do it infinitely.
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Jul 26, 2021 16:29
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Discarding the rest because it's shown to be false.Alchenar posted:2. They betray the premise. Nobody is ever inconvenienced by the lack of dilithium. The relevance to the story seems to be to set up their post-apocalypse mad max scenario. 2. That's not exactly true, there's a whole arc where people realise Discovery has dilithium crystals and attacks them to try to steal it from them. And as mentioned not only are ships in short supply but the replacements for warp travel are perilous and most people are just not going to attempt that. And even then, the Federation has been politically destabilised 3. That's not the conclusion either. The conclusion was messy and I understand not getting it, but it was roughly: - A literal planet of Dilithium will allow the Federation to rebuild and give them a tactical advantage over ships using non-warp methods of travel, this is distinctly different to "woo fossil fuels!! yeehaw!" - It's lovely to leave a child alone in a holographic simulation, also you should face your fears or something - Something something working together
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Jul 26, 2021 16:35
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Not sure why you discarded 1), that was true.alexandriao posted:I assume the reason it's used is because it gives specific harmonics and has properties that allow it to regulate the power flow. Obviously, use in this fashion tends to degrade it, hence why they need it to be replaced now and then. The tech manual explanation is that when you run power through it it microscopically generates fields that repel antimatter, which has the effect of meaning it can come into contact without reacting, so it can be used to channel and control the reaction. So a bit of both. MikeJF fucked around with this message at 16:39 on Jul 26, 2021 |
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Jul 26, 2021 16:36
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Honestly the hardest pill to swallow is that replicator technology hadn't improved enough in 900 years to be able to just make dilithium It's all down to mediocre writers not really understanding what trek is good for
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Jul 26, 2021 16:36
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The Bloop posted:Honestly the hardest pill to swallow is that replicator technology hadn't improved enough in 900 years to be able to just make dilithium no but see, everyone has consoles where they can see people walking around the room and get distracted, and they built nanobot-matter!!! cool!!! exciting!!!! FUN!!!! YOU WILL ENJOY THIS!!!!!!!!
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Jul 26, 2021 16:41
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Meanwhile, a century earlier Daniels could wave his hand and make it so that you traveled hundreds of light years (and several centuries) by walking through a door.
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Jul 26, 2021 16:45
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You'd think they would have learned some speed technology from that civilization that turned Barclay into a super genius
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Jul 26, 2021 16:55
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They should be cruising around in Q drives firing Omega torpedos through fluidic space directly into the enemy's warp core
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Jul 26, 2021 17:19
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The holograms in the 32nd century actually seem worse than the 24th century ones The only noticeable tech upgrades are the programmable matter and the transporters.
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Jul 26, 2021 17:22
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And for half the stuff they use it for, like as an interface for the consoles, programmable matter is inferior to a good ol 24th century solid-holo projector.
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Jul 26, 2021 17:24
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Don't forget speed holes I mean, Detached nacelles for increased maneuverability
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Jul 26, 2021 17:25
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FlamingLiberal posted:The holograms in the 32nd century actually seem worse than the 24th century ones Remember when the Georgiou hacks a 32nd century hologram by blinking at it, despite having never seen an interactive hologram before, let alone done any programming for one.
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Jul 26, 2021 17:28
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Nitrousoxide posted:Remember when the Georgiou hacks a 32nd century hologram by blinking at it, despite having never seen an interactive hologram before, let alone done any programming for one. Lmao I do now You see, because Terrans from the mirror universe have bad light sensitivity, they developed advanced look I can't even finish this bullshit
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Jul 26, 2021 17:33
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I haven't seen season 3, but was that moment better or worse than the imagination wand from the Picard finale?
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Jul 26, 2021 17:38
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Lizard Combatant posted:I haven't seen season 3, but was that moment better or worse than the imagination wand from the Picard finale? Better because it was funny.
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Jul 26, 2021 17:44
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Nichael posted:Better because it was funny. That's valid. I'll take funny schlock over irritating any day. e: looked up the clip, no that's irritating af as well. Thought you meant it was unintentionally funny. Lizard Combatant fucked around with this message at 17:52 on Jul 26, 2021 |
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Jul 26, 2021 17:45
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Yeah the imagination wand, hell most of the final episode of Picard felt like there was some misunderstanding where they thought they had three episodes left to film instead of one. Which was weird since the first half of the season they kept having the Romulan spy siblings have like the exact same argument scene once or twice per episode. EDIT: I'm still pissed about Hugh lmao Neo Rasa fucked around with this message at 19:49 on Jul 26, 2021 |
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Jul 26, 2021 19:45
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Neo Rasa posted:Yeah the imagination wand, hell most of the final episode of Picard felt like there was some misunderstanding where they thought they had three episodes left to film instead of one. Which was weird since the first half of the season they kept having the Romulan spy siblings have like the exact same argument scene once or twice per episode. I liked the Romulan twins but man, talk about zero payoff.
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Jul 26, 2021 20:02
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alexandriao posted:
I'm not talking about the literal events, I'm talking about the how the show concludes the message of the story it is telling. And if your story is obviously at least in part a cautionary tale about relying on fossil fuels until its too late to transition away, it is not a good thing if the conclusion of that story is that the characters make everything better by 'just finding more fossil fuels'. Similarly the collapse and disarray of the Federation and it's replacement in the power vacuum by a criminal enterprise is not solved by bringing disparate groups together and getting them to trust and cooperate and pool limited resources to solve their problems, it's solved by shooting the leader of the criminals in the head. The only thing that's Star Trek about the story is the unintentional lesson that if you break the Prime Directive as Georgiou did by saving Saru then it might take 900 years but eventually the consequences of your actions will be disaster.
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Jul 26, 2021 20:12
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It still bugs the poo poo out of me that what gets Disco to the future at the end of S2 is literally a modified prototype dilithium recrystalizer, designed specifically so that nobody would ever have to mine dilithium again, and at no point did anybody on the ship go "oh wait don't we have a device on board that will allow us to make infinite reuse of our limited reserves" Like, I know the writing is bad, but did the S3 writers not even skim over the S2 scripts?
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Jul 26, 2021 20:16
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MikeJF posted:Meanwhile, a century earlier Daniels could wave his hand and make it so that you traveled hundreds of light years (and several centuries) by walking through a door. The Iconians too, but who's to say any of the TOS-era records mentioned any of this, and Picard very likely did not put it in his report because he mentions to Data to destroy all the evidence Snow Cone Capone posted:It still bugs the poo poo out of me that what gets Disco to the future at the end of S2 is literally a modified prototype dilithium recrystalizer, designed specifically so that nobody would ever have to mine dilithium again, and at no point did anybody on the ship go "oh wait don't we have a device on board that will allow us to make infinite reuse of our limited reserves" But they already have those, there is still not enough dilithium because it degrades with each recrystallization. alexandriao fucked around with this message at 20:37 on Jul 26, 2021 |
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Jul 26, 2021 20:19
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Alchenar posted:I'm not talking about the literal events, I'm talking about the how the show concludes the message of the story it is telling. Which is what I said lmao ("this is distinctly different to "woo fossil fuels!! yeehaw!"") Alchenar posted:And if your story is obviously at least in part a cautionary tale about relying on fossil fuels until its too late to transition away, it is not a good thing if the conclusion of that story is that the characters make everything better by 'just finding more fossil fuels'. I mean I agree here, but I don't think it was intended as a cautionary tale about fossil fuels. Alchenar posted:Similarly the collapse and disarray of the Federation and it's replacement in the power vacuum by a criminal enterprise is not solved by bringing disparate groups together and getting them to trust and cooperate and pool limited resources to solve their problems, it's solved by shooting the leader of the criminals in the head.  I could agree with you if this was any other franchise than Star Trek. You know, the one where the entire point is that they would rather their ships be destroyed rather than start a war? People who prefer the preservation of life and are willing to die if it enables a non-violent solution. All shooting her in the head would obtain is a power vacuum filled by even worse people.
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Jul 26, 2021 20:35
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alexandriao posted:All shooting her in the head would obtain is a power vacuum filled by even worse people. They literally solved their problems by killing the green lady, and it's poo poo.
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Jul 26, 2021 20:40
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This is the same starfleet that started to admit Orions to their ranks at some point, even though their ideal government is a collection of cartels, running on slave labor and nicking poo poo from surrounding civilizations. So that green lady, or most likely her predecessors, knew exactly where and how to strike against the dwindling remnants of the federation right after the Burn happened. Hell, they probably had enough intel to steal some/most of the unloaded federation reserve ships and fixable hulks right out of the nearby boneyards and reserve dry docks. Der Kyhe fucked around with this message at 21:07 on Jul 26, 2021 |
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Jul 26, 2021 21:05
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