[Asia/Oceania] Yellen says she hopes China wont mount retaliation against any steps Washington takes

The Something Awful Forums > Discussion > C-SPAM > [Asia/Oceania] Yellen says she hopes China wont mount retaliation against any steps Washington takes

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(Thread IKs: fart simpson)

gradenko_2000: Oct 5, 2010; HELL SERPENT; Lipstick Apathy

Reposting some of my Tom Clancy summaries.

The Bear and the Dragon, spoilered since someone's still reading it.

gradenko_2000 posted:

https://twitter.com/DailySignal/status/1299067410843041792

That's literally a plot point from a Tom Clancy novel.

A Chinese Baptist living in Beijing asks for help from his priest because his wife just went into labor and it's their second child so he fears that the hospital is going to kill the baby just after it crowns. A CNN camera crew covering trade negotiations between the US and China took a break from their regular beat to visit the parish priest, who's also being visited by the Papal Nuncio at the time. The man gets to the priest, appeals for intervention, and the priest, the Papal Nuncio, and the CNN crew all decide to go to the hospital together after hearing his story.

They get to the hospital just as the man's wife is giving birth, and they stop the doctor just as he's about to inject the baby's skull with formaldehyde. A Chinese police officer runs into the room to stop the group, a struggle breaks out, and the cop shoots and kills the man, the priest and the Nuncio, all in view of the CNN camera crew.

Later, the Baptist congregation holds a small demonstration in front of the priest's house, in protest of the government cremating the priest's body and dumping the ashes into a river without ever consulting with the priest's widow. The local police are sent over to break up the protest, and they brutalize the protesters - the CNN camera crew happens to capture this yet again, and the cameraman does some quick sleight-of-hand to prevent the tape from getting confiscated by the authorities. They broadcast the footage back to CNN HQ in Atlanta, and the very graphic imagery motivates the world to impose massive economic sanctions on China. Facing impending collapse, they decide to invade Siberia, and the US finds itself allied with a democratic Russia to resist Chinese aggression.

gradenko_2000 posted:

The Russian President visited his friend, a former Red Army soldier who fought as a sniper Stalingrad and now lives in the wilderness of Siberia, where he puts his marksmanship to use hunting wildlife.

As a token of their visit, the soldier presents him with a wolf pelt that's coated with gold. The President asks him how he made that, and he says that there's a particular stream where if he soaks the pelts in it, they get imbued with gold over time. The President's interest gets piqued, and he sends a surveying team to the area that the soldier described.

The engineers and technicians find that not only does that area have a huge gold deposit (which explains why the stream would deposit gold on anything it flowed through), but that there's also a veritable ocean of crude oil lying just underneath, with more barrels than even Saudi Arabia ever had.

The Russian President contacts President Jack Ryan to tell him the news, and they work out an agreement where American oil companies will help develop drilling and mining operations in the area so that Russia can profit from the discovery.

The word of this gets out, and that's what China is after when they invade.

Much, much later in the book, when the top commander of the PLA is driving around in his tank, the old sniper manages to shoot him right between the eyes because his head was sticking out of the turret. He then takes the opportunity to say that shooting one fascist now was not all that different from shooting the fascists so many years ago.

gradenko_2000 posted:

The [Bear and the Dragon] was written in 2000, and since Clancy tried to keep things at least mildly grounded in reality, he also had to write-in that the Soviet Union did collapse, and so Russia was now a democracy-loving capitalist bastion of liberalism.

This was also the culmination of something like a three book cycle:

in Debt of Honor, we see a cabal forming between the head of a Japanese zaibatsu, an Iranian mullah, and a senior CPC politburo member. Debt of Honor is when the Japanese step up to the plate and attack the US, but is parried by the President heeding Jack Ryan's advice as National Security Advisor. He gets elevated to Vice President to replace not-Ted-Kennedy getting implicated in not-Chappaquiddick, but a distraught Japanese pilot does a 9/11 on Congress during the State of the Union address so Ryan becomes President.

Executive Orders is when Ryan has to contend with rebuilding the US government after this decapitation, and then has to deal with the second part of the triumvirate when Iran assassinates not-Saddam-Hussein, assimilates Iraq, and forms the United Islamic Republic as a new regional superpower that attacks the US with an outbreak of Ebola virus. The Federal government implements lockdown procedures to secure the outbreak of Ebola, the US military does Gulf War 2.0, the not-Ayatollah-Khomeini gets assassinated with a smart bomb, and all is well.

The Bear and the Dragon was part three, where China takes its shot after the first two members of the pact have failed.

As lobster shirt says, a Japanese airline pilot decides to do a 9/11 on Congress during the SOTU because he sees one son get killed when the Ticonderoga-class cruiser he's serving on gets torpedoed by a USN sub*, and another son get killed when his JDF F-15 loses to USAF F-22s.

___

* this is one of Jack Ryan's super-smart plans, where he uses SSBNs/boomers as attack subs because they're ultra-quiet and were headed for decommissioning anyway because the US swore off ballistic nuclear missiles. This is portrayed as a bad thing.

gradenko_2000 has issued a correction as of 17:32 on Jul 26, 2021

# ? Jul 26, 2021 17:29

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# ? May 26, 2024 11:21

stephenthinkpad: Jan 2, 2020

Clancy was basically 90s Dan Brown.

# ? Jul 26, 2021 17:35

crepeface: Nov 5, 2004; r*p*f*c*

brugroffil posted:

America was scared of Japanese business/economic domination in the 80's and 90's.

yeah, i posted this last time the topic came up. western media running the same playbook now on china, except the anti-china pop culture is less overt because the chinese market is important to studios :capitalism:

crepeface posted:

i wasn't paying attention to politics in the 80's, but it's interesting to see how all the same 'china bad' rhetoric was used against japan from all the usual suspects (NYT, LAtimes, atlantic, etc)

japan bad

quote:
Start at the State Department with middle-level officers who deal daily with the Japanese - and one hears language almost unheard elsewhere in that labyrinth of quiet diplomats. ''Japan,'' said one, who asked not to be identified, ''is a protectionist nation: They have no sense of moderation; they are aggressive. They are an island nation looking out on the rest of the world as plunder from a protected bastion. Negotiations are tedious, painful -oh, so painful- and, when they yield, they yield with no grace.

ip theft

quote:
Now, belatedly awake to the recognition that Japan has been eating their breakfast, lunch, dinner, and bedtime snack, American companies are stirring. IBM vs. Fujitsu over computer software, Honeywell vs. Minolta over automatic focusing, Corning Glass vs. Sumitomo Electric over fiber optics -- these are only the latest, best-publicized complaints that Japan has stolen American technology. Even as those legal battles are fought out, the copycat cliche is becoming obsolete. A series of studies financed by the U.S. government since 1984 warn that Japan has caught up with the U.S. or passed it in the development of integrated circuits, fiber optics, computer hardware engineering, and advanced materials like polymers.

they even had their own huawei

quote:
The Senate, angered by disclosures that the Soviet Union had obtained technology to design and build a new group of quietly operating submarines, has included in its trade bill a provision forbidding the importation of Toshiba goods for as long as five years. House members share the Senate�s concerns, but their chamber has no pending legislation calling for Toshiba penalties.

military in their waters

quote:
the U.S. will no longer endure Japan's economic encroachments. Japan, meanwhile, in order to ensure the influx of raw materials and to secure an export market it can dominate politically, will solidify its trading bloc in Southwest Asia and the Indian Ocean, while challenging U.S. hegemony in the Pacific Basin.

EU sides with the US of course

quote:
British Prime Minister Margaret Thatcher bluntly told Japan Wednesday to open its markets or risk international retaliation. Mrs. Thatcher said Japan's position as an economic superpower had been made possible by open world markets. But Japanese restrictions, barriers, and subsidies ``make it hard, even impossible, for some imports to enter Japanese markets,'' she said.

debt traps! unfair trade practices!

quote:
That conflict arises from Japan's inability or unwillingness to restrain the one-sided and destructive expansion of its economic power. The expansion is one-sided because Japanese business does to other countries what Japan will not permit to be done to itself.

...

There is one further indication of economic imbalance: the continuing pattern of one-sidedness in many Japanese transactions. A few years ago the management expert Peter Drucker introduced the term "adversarial trade" to describe Japan's approach to commerce, which is characterized by resistance to high-value imports and by targeted attacks on established foreign industries.

...

the standard complaint about Japanese trading practice is that it's hypocritical. Japanese manufacturers sell freely in the United States, but foreigners must fight their way through public and private cartels to compete in Japan.

i'm not racist but they just think differently

quote:
The deeper concept here is the weakness of universal principles in Japan�of ideas that make the Japanese feel that their lives run according to axioms similar to those of any human beings' lives around the world. The differing ideas about the basis of moral behavior are probably the most fundamental contrast between Japan and the West.

the inscrutable machinations of the orientals

quote:
�Japan is another universe, which wants to conquer,� Prime Minister Edith Cresson said recently. �That�s the way they are.� The Japanese market is �hermetically sealed,� and the Japanese stay up nights trying to think of ways �to screw the West,� she said. According to reports in the Japanese media, she has described the Japanese as �yellow dwarfs.�

Before she became prime minster, in an interview with The Times in 1989, Cresson referred to the Japanese as being �just like ants, eating you up� and went on to say: �You just don�t notice it. You don�t feel it. You don�t see it.�

trade war! US getting the WTO involved!

quote:
President Clinton, following through on his threat to retaliate against Japan�s trade policies, has decided to redeploy an old weapon that would allow the Administration to raise tariffs on Japanese goods sold in the United States, Administration and congressional sources said Tuesday.

The Administration official, who spoke on condition of anonymity, said the �next logical� measure would be the publication of a list of Japanese exports on which tariffs could be raised or other sanctions could be applied. The taxes on imports would raise prices paid by U.S. consumers to discourage them from buying particular Japanese goods.

not sure if i posted the princes of yen documentary from the doomsday economics thread, but it really paints a picture of post-war japan as a top-down command economy masquerading as a free market that got absolutely owned once they actually opened up. the documentary blames younger japanese generation that absorbed the neoliberal ideology when they were sent abroad to be educated, which caused them to deliberately create economic havoc so they could restructure their economic system (make the central bank independent), but some of those articles (especially the "containing japan" article ), really gives me the impression that they were getting a lot of external pressure. the end of the documentary briefly mentions other countries getting destroyed by the IMF/EU equivalent in a similar way (thailand, korea, singapore and now greece, spain, etc).

haven't found anything that's analgous to uyghur stuff tho.... unless..........

# ? Jul 26, 2021 17:41

brugroffil: Nov 30, 2015

You also had things like the big corporation who's targeted by the terrorists in Die Hard being a big Japanese company. They weren't evil or the 'bad guys' in the movie or anything, but "big Japanese corp" was in the background of a lot of things.

# ? Jul 26, 2021 17:49

Raskolnikov38: Mar 3, 2007; We were somewhere around Manila when the drugs began to take hold

brugroffil posted:

You also had things like the big corporation who's targeted by the terrorists in Die Hard being a big Japanese company. They weren't evil or the 'bad guys' in the movie or anything, but "big Japanese corp" was in the background of a lot of things.

don�t forgot the couple of Asian people who were killed by chuds in the late 70s/early 80s because �they�d took der jobs!�

# ? Jul 26, 2021 17:51

stephenthinkpad: Jan 2, 2020

Also Black Rain. Teaming up with token good Japanese to fight against the machine.

# ? Jul 26, 2021 17:53

gradenko_2000: Oct 5, 2010; HELL SERPENT; Lipstick Apathy

brugroffil posted:

You also had things like the big corporation who's targeted by the terrorists in Die Hard being a big Japanese company. They weren't evil or the 'bad guys' in the movie or anything, but "big Japanese corp" was in the background of a lot of things.

"Rising Sun" by Michael Crichton was just full on 80s yellow-peril about Japan

Robocop 3 was about OCP and Detroit getting bought-out by a Japanese corporation and Robocop getting replaced by robot samurai

Tom Clancy also made a big deal about the "Toshiba-Kongsberg Scandal", when advanced milling machinery was procured by the Soviet Union through Japan in violation of US-decreed trade controls which allegedly allowed them to make a generational leap in submarine technology by letting them manufacture significantly quieter propellers

# ? Jul 26, 2021 17:56

stephenthinkpad: Jan 2, 2020

gradenko_2000 posted:

"Rising Sun" by Michael Crichton was just full on 80s yellow-peril about Japan

Robocop 3 was about OCP and Detroit getting bought-out by a Japanese corporation and Robocop getting replaced by robot samurai

Tom Clancy also made a big deal about the "Toshiba-Kongsberg Scandal", when advanced milling machinery was procured by the Soviet Union through Japan in violation of US-decreed trade controls which allegedly allowed theThm to make a generational leap in submarine technology by letting them manufacture significantly quieter propellers

It was around the same time US taking legal actions against Japanese semiconductor dominance namely Toshiba, which is essentially what US is trying to do to Huawei now except Huawei has the resource and the state backing to resist the full frontal assault. The Japan semiconductor business basically folded up like a tin can and give up the business to TSMC and Samsung, now Japan only has monopoly in highend camera sensors in semicinductor.

The Japanese government sent some Toshiba executives to jail to appease the Americans. It's funny how the US congressmen used to beat up Japanese electronics appliances in front of press but they don't do that to Walmart Chinese TV and Lenovo laptops now.

stephenthinkpad has issued a correction as of 18:32 on Jul 26, 2021

# ? Jul 26, 2021 18:28

gradenko_2000: Oct 5, 2010; HELL SERPENT; Lipstick Apathy

my Lenovo laptop is a loving champ, pushing nine years and still going strong

# ? Jul 26, 2021 18:55

TeenageArchipelago: Jul 23, 2013

lobster shirt posted:

did someone post this yet

lmao, so China not only takes Japan and Korea, but also big chunks of Mongolia, Laos, and Vietnam? What's the source for this?

TeenageArchipelago has issued a correction as of 19:05 on Jul 26, 2021

# ? Jul 26, 2021 19:02

Pener Kropoopkin: Jan 30, 2013

It was a more plausible plot line to make Decker the president than Jack Ryan.

# ? Jul 26, 2021 20:19

Grapplejack: Nov 27, 2007

TeenageArchipelago posted:

lmao, so China not only takes Japan and Korea, but also big chunks of Mongolia, Laos, and Vietnam? What's the source for this?

All of these locations were under Qing control (except for Japan); Laos / Vietnam weren't but were tributary states for hundreds of years. Hell Mongolia was Chinese controlled for like 300 years until 1911 where they declared independence and got backing by the soviets

# ? Jul 26, 2021 20:52

Mantis42: Jul 26, 2010

TeenageArchipelago posted:

lmao, so China not only takes Japan and Korea, but also big chunks of Mongolia, Laos, and Vietnam? What's the source for this?

it's basically an amalgamation of all the places/people boomers think are china/chinese

# ? Jul 26, 2021 21:17

Lostconfused: Oct 1, 2008

mila kunis posted:

https://adamtooze.substack.com/p/adam-toozes-chartbook-28-china-in

Quetzadilla posted:

Even if Stalin did "kill" 20 million people and Mao did "kill" 65 million people, those are rounding errors compared to the number of lives that they saved. The advances in public health that took place under communist governments have no historical parallel. In Russia between the 1920s and 1950s, and in China between the 1940s and the 1970s, life expectancy doubled or nearly doubled. No other country has ever done that. While Mao was in power in China, life expectancy increased by more than one year per year. The first objection to these miraculous achievements is that "life expectancy would have gone up anyway," which may be true, but it is very unlikely that it would have risen nearly as far or as quickly. In the Chinese case, we actually have a ready-made historical experiment, because India won independence at nearly the same moment China was liberated, and had similar vital statistics, but did not benefit from communist central planning. As a consequence:

Go ahead; take the integral of those curves and run the numbers on how many additional billions of life-years Chinese have enjoyed as compared to their Indian counterparts. Even by the insane and misleading history of wild-eyed anti-communism, if you consider communist policy in totality, Joseph Stalin was still the second-greatest humanitarian to have ever lived, right after Comrade Chairman Mao Zedong.

# ? Jul 26, 2021 21:24

Throatwarbler: Nov 17, 2008; by vyelkin

TeenageArchipelago posted:

lmao, so China not only takes Japan and Korea, but also big chunks of Mongolia, Laos, and Vietnam? What's the source for this?

It seems to be based on the borders of the Qing post 1858, as it includes Mongolia but Manchuria ends at the Ussuri river instead of the Amur, except the entirety of Sakhalin and all of the Kuril island chain are now Russian - at least the Kuril chain would have been Japanese at the time.

# ? Jul 26, 2021 22:30

Raskolnikov38: Mar 3, 2007; We were somewhere around Manila when the drugs began to take hold

Grapplejack posted:

All of these locations were under Qing control (except for Japan); Laos / Vietnam weren't but were tributary states for hundreds of years. Hell Mongolia was Chinese controlled for like 300 years until 1911 where they declared independence and got backing by the soviets

i thought japan paid tribute at some point (probably not to the qing)

# ? Jul 26, 2021 22:50

Grapplejack: Nov 27, 2007

Raskolnikov38 posted:

i thought japan paid tribute at some point (probably not to the qing)

They did, yeah, but it was extremely brief. Japan and China mostly spent the entirety of the medieval era sniping at each other or having conquest wars; a majority of their fighting was in Korea

# ? Jul 26, 2021 23:02

Maximo Roboto: Feb 4, 2012

TeenageArchipelago posted:

lmao, so China not only takes Japan and Korea, but also big chunks of Mongolia, Laos, and Vietnam? What's the source for this?

https://civilization.fandom.com/wiki/Pan-Asian_Cooperative_(CivBE)

# ? Jul 26, 2021 23:06

stephenthinkpad: Jan 2, 2020

Raskolnikov38 posted:

i thought japan paid tribute at some point (probably not to the qing)

I have heard somebody explained the tribute system as a "FTA" system. Basically you have to send an envoy to Beijing and give a bag of gifts to the emporer (and almost always get a better bag of gifts in return) in order to formalize the trade relationship with the empire. I think every new king has to do it once.

In other words, while the Chinese emporer always considered the tribute system a "leader-follower" relationship, it wasn't that big of a deal to the kingdoms in the outer rim of the empire.

There is an online lecture of the Sino-Japanese relationship over the ages (on edX?). I downloaded it and haven't watched it, so I can't say how serious ancient Japan considered the tribute relationship.

# ? Jul 27, 2021 00:08

Mantis42: Jul 26, 2010

Grapplejack posted:

They did, yeah, but it was extremely brief. Japan and China mostly spent the entirety of the medieval era sniping at each other or having conquest wars; a majority of their fighting was in Korea

By the entirety of the medieval era do you mean like 1590s? Japan was a backwater that didn't project force outside it's home islands before the Imjin War, and then after being defeated there they were isolationist until the 19th century.

# ? Jul 27, 2021 00:17

Atrocious Joe: Sep 2, 2011

Put the UK on the map since they paid tribute to the Qing at some points

# ? Jul 27, 2021 03:25

Grapplejack: Nov 27, 2007

Mantis42 posted:

By the entirety of the medieval era do you mean like 1590s? Japan was a backwater that didn't project force outside it's home islands before the Imjin War, and then after being defeated there they were isolationist until the 19th century.

Well there were the mongol invasions too but those were in the 1200s so I guess that's a little early for medieval. It's been a while since my asian history courses so forgive me if I've forgotten things

Atrocious Joe posted:

Put the UK on the map since they paid tribute to the Qing at some points

china said no

# ? Jul 27, 2021 05:12

Grapplejack: Nov 27, 2007

it's haaretz

# ? Jul 27, 2021 14:17

Lostconfused: Oct 1, 2008

I guess they ran out of politicians to call antisemites.

# ? Jul 27, 2021 14:19

gradenko_2000: Oct 5, 2010; HELL SERPENT; Lipstick Apathy

oh my god it's Alexander Reid Ross again

gently caress that guy

# ? Jul 27, 2021 14:23

Pener Kropoopkin: Jan 30, 2013

Nazi-Maoist

# ? Jul 27, 2021 14:33

Zmej: Nov 6, 2005

how does this guy still get paid to write as a "journalist" lol

# ? Jul 27, 2021 14:40

fart simpson: Jul 2, 2005; DEATH TO AMERICA

Pener Kropoopkin posted:

Nazi-Maoist

lol

# ? Jul 27, 2021 14:45

AnimeIsTrash: Jun 30, 2018

Zmej posted:

how does this guy still get paid to write as a "journalist" lol

The red brown alliance stuff is just CRT but for libs. So it picks up traction really fast.

# ? Jul 27, 2021 15:48

Junkozeyne: Feb 13, 2012

antisemitic italian nazi-maoist is some prime username combo

# ? Jul 27, 2021 15:48

genericnick: Dec 26, 2012

lol

"It Failed Miserably: After Wargaming Loss, Joint Chiefs Are Overhauling How the US Military Will Fight - Defense One posted:

The Pentagon would not provide the name of the wargame, which was classified, but a defense official said one of the scenarios revolved around a battle for Taiwan. One key lesson: gathering ships, aircraft, and other forces to concentrate and reinforce each other�s combat power also made them sitting ducks.

Also why can't I get rid of those dumb quote marks in the url.
Edit: Best part of the new plan:

"�It Failed Miserably�: After Wargaming Loss, Joint Chiefs Are Overhauling How the US Military Will Fight - Defense One posted:

Contested logistics. Creating new ways to deliver fuel and supplies to front lines. U.S. Transportation Command and the Air Force are working on using rockets and a space trajectory to get large cargo spaceships into and out of battlefields.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CIGHCoVzqtk

genericnick has issued a correction as of 15:54 on Jul 27, 2021

# ? Jul 27, 2021 15:48

lobster shirt: Jun 14, 2021

italian nazi-maoists... linked to IRAN!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! gently caress! islamofascism is real!

# ? Jul 27, 2021 15:51

sexpig by night: Sep 8, 2011; by Azathoth

god drat nazi maoist iranians, always supporting the ccp!!!

# ? Jul 27, 2021 15:53

Atrocious Joe: Sep 2, 2011

Actually, China only won that wargame because General Ripper was bitter about career stuff and decided to mess it up before retiring

# ? Jul 27, 2021 16:09

genericnick: Dec 26, 2012

Atrocious Joe posted:

Actually, China only won that wargame because General Ripper was bitter about career stuff and decided to mess it up before retiring

I suppose that's a new one. You can afford one(1) embarrassing exercise to sell Congress on Large Cargo Spaceships.

# ? Jul 27, 2021 16:19

Comrade Koba: Jul 2, 2007

lobster shirt posted:

italian nazi-maoists... linked to IRAN!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! gently caress! islamofascism is real!

imagining the :discourse:

emoji holding a rally in nuremberg trying to convince the masses that xi is the twelfth imam

# ? Jul 27, 2021 16:38

mortons stork: Oct 13, 2012

Can someone link me the article about the italian iranian nazi maoists? I need to see it in its full terribleness

# ? Jul 27, 2021 16:41

Cao Ni Ma: May 25, 2010

lobster shirt posted:

italian nazi-maoists... linked to IRAN!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! gently caress! islamofascism is real!

Islamaonazism

# ? Jul 27, 2021 16:46

sexpig by night: Sep 8, 2011; by Azathoth

mama mia, I makea the great leap forward, hiel!

# ? Jul 27, 2021 16:48

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# ? May 26, 2024 11:21

Zmej: Nov 6, 2005

sexpig by night posted:

mama mia, I makea the great leap forward, hiel!

lol

# ? Jul 27, 2021 16:49

The Something Awful Forums > Discussion > C-SPAM > [Asia/Oceania] Yellen says she hopes China wont mount retaliation against any steps Washington takes

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