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Blue Footed Booby posted:I don't think anything anyone has posted was meant to amount to "completely abandon class analysis, use __________ instead." We're not obligated to stick to one framework for explaining everything ever. Like the split in the republican party in the W days, there are cases where the behavior of people theoretically acting on behalf of capital diverge enough from factual reality it seems perverse to say "that's how they understand their class interests." And after all, it's not exactly a damning indictment of class analysis to say that sometimes people can be stupid in ways that are hard to cover in a singular model. It'd be something for someone to say "completely abandon class analysis, use __________ instead.", instead I'm getting either "class analysis can't explain this" or "class analysis isn't real", only with more words. It's germane to the topic because if you think class and class conflict actually exists and apply your analysis to the current situation it would suggest that the Democrats will not do anything to meaningfully resolve the crisis at our border, for the reasons I (and others) have laid out here. You might be able to get some reduction of raw cruelty, but probably not much more. If you apply class analysis to the economic and political environment surrounding the border crisis, you come to the conclusion that voting for Democrats and hoping they'll do the right thing is not and will never be enough, and the only thing that will ever move the needle is an organized working class resistance that is -- importantly -- antagonistic to both parties.
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Jul 26, 2021 20:47
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Pentecoastal Elites posted:It's germane to the topic because if you think class and class conflict actually exists and apply your analysis to the current situation it would suggest that the Democrats will not do anything to meaningfully resolve the crisis at our border, for the reasons I (and others) have laid out here. You might be able to get some reduction of raw cruelty, but probably not much more. The problem with this is that it gives you the ability to move goal posts when needed. No matter what Democrats do, using the above line of reasoning you can always claim that it merely amounts to "some reduction in raw cruelty," rather than anything substantial or praiseworthy, and respond with something along the lines of "...that's nice I guess." This isn't me conjuring things out of thin air either. It happened earlier in this very thread, where someone painstakingly cited, catalogued and summarized the Biden administration's immigration accomplishments in its first 100 days, and the post went mostly ignored, and the one or two posters who begrudgingly acknowledged it (after being repeatedly asked to do so) responded with the equivalent of "okay FINE, it's good that Biden did those (minor) things, but <insert something Biden has not done yet>" I think at this point y'all should just come out and admit that nothing that Democrats can do short of the complete and total abolishment of ICE and the freeing of every detainee in border camps into
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Jul 26, 2021 22:35
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Slow News Day posted:I think at this point y'all should just come out and admit that nothing that Democrats can do short of the complete and total abolishment of ICE and the freeing of every detainee in border camps into I mean, sure, I'll come out and say this: anything short of abolishing ICE and shutting down the concentration camps is not just unsatisfactory, it is a grotesque moral crime.
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Jul 26, 2021 22:41
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Slow News Day posted:I think at this point y'all should just come out and admit that nothing that Democrats can do short of the complete and total abolishment of ICE and the freeing of every detainee in border camps into Yes obviously I want the complete and total abolishment of ICE and every detainee in border camps to be given the care and dignity that they deserve as human beings. Yes this administration is only slightly less monstrous than the previous one, as evidenced by (amongst many other things) their not abolishing ICE and the all of the kids that are still in the cages. Yes. Obviously yes. One hundred billion times yes. This stuff is so blisteringly obvious it's insane to consider that I'd be arguing for anything less. You're not serving me up a clever GOTCHA!, this is the stuff I and anyone who is not totally subsumed by the idiotic spectacle of the Pragmatic Democrats Getting Things Done™ believe. What's the alternative? Dance in the streets because the Biden administration is making the minimum possible headway that itself won't even stand up past the 2022 elections the Democrats are bound to lose? No thanks lmao. Also as long as we're pointing out things so astoundingly obvious you'd wonder why anyone would even take the effort in the first place: no one is getting tricked by your SO YOU WANT TO RELEASE THEM INTO THE DESERT?!?!?!? stupid disingenuous bullshit. It didn't work months ago and it won't work now.
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Jul 26, 2021 23:56
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Ok fine I'll admit it. I think there should be zero children in cages, and that everyone should have healthcare and a home and food, and that fascist institutions shouldn't exist. You've backed me into a corner with your rhetorical wit and I have no choice but to expose my true intentions.
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Jul 27, 2021 00:09
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Pentecoastal Elites posted:Yes obviously I want the complete and total abolishment of ICE and every detainee in border camps to be given the care and dignity that they deserve as human beings. Yes this administration is only slightly less monstrous than the previous one, as evidenced by (amongst many other things) their not abolishing ICE and the all of the kids that are still in the cages. Yes. Obviously yes. One hundred billion times yes. This stuff is so blisteringly obvious it's insane to consider that I'd be arguing for anything less. You're not serving me up a clever GOTCHA!, this is the stuff I and anyone who is not totally subsumed by the idiotic spectacle of the Pragmatic Democrats Getting Things Done™ believe. What's the alternative? Dance in the streets because the Biden administration is making the minimum possible headway that itself won't even stand up past the 2022 elections the Democrats are bound to lose? No thanks lmao. It wasn't a gotcha attempt, and frankly, it is totally fine to want ICE abolished and the border camps closed. The problem I'm having with your stance, though, is that neither you nor anyone else has, afaict, described any realistic roadmap to getting those things to happen. Earlier in the thread some people posted historical precedents for agencies getting abolished and the different forms those have taken, and discussed the mechanisms for doing so again, but that conversation seems to have gone nowhere. Since this is D&D, perhaps you can post your thoughts on how exactly ICE can be abolished, what should take its place and what that thing should look like, etc.?
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Jul 27, 2021 00:38
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Slow News Day posted:The problem I'm having with your stance, though, is that neither you nor anyone else has, afaict, described any realistic roadmap to getting those things to happen. Why? "The people", as a collective entity, are not expected to devise policy solutions, nor be experts on tax policy or foreign policy. To say that "you have offered no solutions" seems like a plumber complaining that the homeowner is not telling them how to fix a leaking pipe. Josef bugman fucked around with this message at 12:45 on Jul 27, 2021 |
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Jul 27, 2021 09:30
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Josef bugman posted:Why? "The people", as a collective entity, are not expected to be to devise policy solutions, nor be experts on tax policy or foreign policy. To say that "you have offered no solutions" seems like a plumber complaining that the homeowner is not telling them how to fix a leaking pipe. No it's more like the mechanic complaining because you took your car in and said it's broken because it burns gasoline and fucks up the environment. The problem you've identified is real, but there's no realistic way to do what you want and they're getting pissed off because when they try to explain this you start yelling about how you're not a mechanic just make it work.
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Jul 27, 2021 12:29
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Jarmak posted:No it's more like the mechanic complaining because you took your car in and said it's broken because it burns gasoline and fucks up the environment. In what way is children in cages as essential to the functioning of US government as a combustion engine is to a car? are we living in Omelas and nobody told me?
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Jul 27, 2021 12:35
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Muscle Tracer posted:In what way is children in cages as essential to the functioning of US government as a combustion engine is to a car? are we living in Omelas and nobody told me? A combustion engine isn't essential to the functioning of a car at all, but designing an electric car is a long and deliberate process that isn't achieved by screaming at some mechanic about how you want your 79 Buick carbon-neutral right now.
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Jul 27, 2021 12:52
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Muscle Tracer posted:In what way is children in cages as essential to the functioning of US government as a combustion engine is to a car? are we living in Omelas and nobody told me? Is putting children in cages the only thing ICE does? One of the major talking points I see in immigration discussions is that ICE should be abolished and that ICE cannot be rehabilitated or fixed, so it seems necessary for those discussing the topic to both know what functions ICE serves and to have some ideas of what functions should be retained in whatever replaces ICE and how those goals can be attained in a humane way. It seems like people assume that the government has solutions to every problem just sitting around waiting to be implemented and it would be great if that was true but I don't think it is, sorry.
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Jul 27, 2021 12:56
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AVeryLargeRadish posted:Is putting children in cages the only thing ICE does? One of the major talking points I see in immigration discussions is that ICE should be abolished and that ICE cannot be rehabilitated or fixed, so it seems necessary for those discussing the topic to both know what functions ICE serves and to have some ideas of what functions should be retained in whatever replaces ICE and how those goals can be attained in a humane way. ICE is less than 20 years old. Why, if it was so integral to governmental function, has it only existed since the decline of The Simpsons?
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Jul 27, 2021 13:01
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AVeryLargeRadish posted:Is putting children in cages the only thing ICE does? One of the major talking points I see in immigration discussions is that ICE should be abolished and that ICE cannot be rehabilitated or fixed, so it seems necessary for those discussing the topic to both know what functions ICE serves and to have some ideas of what functions should be retained in whatever replaces ICE and how those goals can be attained in a humane way. Not the only thing, no - they also put adults in cages. They also didn’t exist until 2003 so somehow we functioned okay without them until then.
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Jul 27, 2021 13:01
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AVeryLargeRadish posted:Is putting children in cages the only thing ICE does? One of the major talking points I see in immigration discussions is that ICE should be abolished and that ICE cannot be rehabilitated or fixed, so it seems necessary for those discussing the topic to both know what functions ICE serves and to have some ideas of what functions should be retained in whatever replaces ICE and how those goals can be attained in a humane way. The enforcement and removal division accounts for roughly half of ICE, and doesn't include CBP. The other half of ICE is HSI which conducts investigations into transnational crimes that cross the border such as weapons smuggling, human trafficking, trade/commerical law enforcement, customs, etc. Jarmak fucked around with this message at 17:26 on Jul 27, 2021 |
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Jul 27, 2021 13:06
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The "policy is complicated, chill out" take is depressing even when it is accurately dealing with a huge problem with genuinely complex and uncertain solutions, as with climate change. It's embarrassing when it's used in favor of policy where the only thing complicated about it is that you have to take profit away from certain industries, like with health care reform. It's disgusting when it's used in support of an agency committing human rights abuses that could be eliminated without replacement. Why on earth is your default assumption that there's a good and noble reason this is happening?
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Jul 27, 2021 13:32
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BRAKE FOR MOOSE posted:The "policy is complicated, chill out" take is depressing even when it is accurately dealing with a huge problem with genuinely complex and uncertain solutions, as with climate change. It's embarrassing when it's used in favor of policy where the only thing complicated about it is that you have to take profit away from certain industries, like with health care reform. It's disgusting when it's used in support of an agency committing human rights abuses that could be eliminated without replacement. Why on earth is your default assumption that there's a good and noble reason this is happening? Disclaimer, ICE is a borderline rouge government agency with barely any oversight and at this point ought be dismantled. That said, I don't see why the politics of immigration are going to be any more or less complicated than climate change. No one is is claiming that this organization is good or that the US has good immigration policy - it doesn't but the idea the the Biden Administration or any other politician for that matter can simply snap their fingers and fix this is absolutely not at all realistic. It goes for double when the opposing political party controls the half of the government, is racist, is xenophobic, prevents and often sabotages any attempt to make things better things aren't going to change much at all. I'd be curious to see how other countries have ended up changing their own immigration policy but I'd wager it'd be something that spanned over years if not decades.
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Jul 27, 2021 14:54
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Uncle Boogeyman posted:Not the only thing, no - they also put adults in cages. In the same sense that the Air Force didn't exist before 1947, and yet that doesn't mean the US military functioned without air power before then. I'm all on board with ICE being a rotten agency that needs to be gutted, mind, but anyone who sincerely believes ICE was created in 2003 would probably be as easily fooled by the same functions, people, and organizational structure being moved under a different acronym again.
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Jul 27, 2021 15:17
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Crosby B. Alfred posted:Disclaimer, ICE is a borderline rouge government agency with barely any oversight and at this point ought be dismantled. The politics of immigration are complicated, yes. I'm drawing a distinction between things that require legitimately deep policy, and things that are just politically intractable. The politics are complicated because the politicians are beholden to the racists and xenophobes, but there's nothing complicated about the policy and the solutions; people are inventing complications in order to avoid admitting that the ongoing abuse is a deliberate political decision. With climate change, we have to coordinate world governments, install strict regulations, work against the profit motive of a great number of multinational corporations, invest a huge amount of public funding into infrastructure and technology, and mandate lifestyle changes. With single-payer healthcare, we have the infrastructure to immediately put it right into place, but we need to make a ton of changes at the provider level to allow the healthcare system to weather the shock. With border enforcement, we'd have effective change with few downsides just by firing some motherfuckers.
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Jul 27, 2021 15:41
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Slow News Day posted:It wasn't a gotcha attempt, and frankly, it is totally fine to want ICE abolished and the border camps closed. The problem I'm having with your stance, though, is that neither you nor anyone else has, afaict, described any realistic roadmap to getting those things to happen. Earlier in the thread some people posted historical precedents for agencies getting abolished and the different forms those have taken, and discussed the mechanisms for doing so again, but that conversation seems to have gone nowhere. Since this is D&D, perhaps you can post your thoughts on how exactly ICE can be abolished, what should take its place and what that thing should look like, etc.? The problem you have with my stance is because you don't understand it -- because you can't understand without understanding Marxist class analysis. I can't know "exactly how ICE can be abolished", or the totally bonkers "what thing should take its place and what the thing should look like" (?????) nor should I be expected to. But because I'm not totally captured by the idea that bureaucratic neoliberalism is the highest form of justice to possibly exist I can actually tell you how, in broad strokes, ICE should be dismantled. Shockingly it's the same way every major social or economic concession has been won: an organized movement of the working class that demands it. I don't know what that entails, specifically, in America in 2021. I don't know if that means electing radicals into enough positions that they will actually do something about it, or if it means grassroots organization that foments strikes and other unrest until the government capitulates, or something else I don't understand and can't anticipate. I don't know the precise steps involved here but what I do know is how it's not going to get fixed, which is by jerking each other off when the Biden administration tells us that everything is okay and they're workin' on fixin' it, honest, Jack! The idea that the system we live under can produce justice without an exogenous force demanding that it does is utterly deranged, psychotic optimism and is easily recognized as such by anyone who is not totally dependent on that psychotic optimism to let them think they're a good person who is on the good team and saved democracy by voting for an administration who will continue to do the absolute minimum possible to address honest-to-god no-poo poo humanitarian crisis. Thinking that it's not fair that I, some guy on the internet, demand the shuttering of the camps and the dissolution of ice without having a workable plan that is legally viable and politically actionable is, I'm sorry, totally loving insane and is clear evidence that you know that the concentration camps are morally inexcusable but can't acknowledge it because it makes you uncomfortable. Everyone is already doing the best they can possibly do, everything is already as good as it can possibly be. Everything is going to be totally fine, it'll just take a lot of time, you just have to trust in the system! Jarmak posted:The enforcement division and removal division accounts for roughly half of ICE, and doesn't include CBP. The other half of ICE is HSI which conducts investigations into transnational crimes that cross the border such as weapons smuggling, human trafficking, trade/commerical law enforcement, customs, etc. ICE is good, actually?  (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST) (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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Jul 27, 2021 15:50
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AVeryLargeRadish posted:Is putting children in cages the only thing ICE does? One of the major talking points I see in immigration discussions is that ICE should be abolished and that ICE cannot be rehabilitated or fixed, so it seems necessary for those discussing the topic to both know what functions ICE serves and to have some ideas of what functions should be retained in whatever replaces ICE and how those goals can be attained in a humane way. I love the genre of post where someone insinuates something ("what functions ICE serves") but doesn't actually state them at all. "You're wrong, and I'm right, but I won't tell you the correct thing." afaict, ICE serves to terrorize and destroy the families of my most vulnerable neighbors, and do as much as possible to make America a worse place for people that weren't born here. That doesn't seem like a useful function to me, and the "solution" to be "implemented" is to quite simply stop doing that. Trump managed to gut the State Department, which DOES actually have a useful function, without even trying—don't tell me that something much more definitive couldn't be done to ICE. Or, if not, specify exactly why, instead of "but it would be hard, and we aren't able to do hard things" Jarmak posted:A combustion engine isn't essential to the functioning of a car at all, but designing an electric car is a long and deliberate process that isn't achieved by screaming at some mechanic about how you want your 79 Buick carbon-neutral right now. There is actually a reality TV show where they do exactly that. Except the screaming, idk where that enters the metaphor.
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Jul 27, 2021 15:50
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Muscle Tracer posted:I love the genre of post where someone insinuates something ("what functions ICE serves") but doesn't actually state them at all. "You're wrong, and I'm right, but I won't tell you the correct thing." If you're going to read things into my post that don't exist I don't see how I can have a conversation with you, sorry. 
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Jul 27, 2021 17:07
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Pentecoastal Elites posted:The problem you have with my stance is because you don't understand it -- because you can't understand without understanding Marxist class analysis. I can't know "exactly how ICE can be abolished", or the totally bonkers "what thing should take its place and what the thing should look like" (?????) nor should I be expected to. But because I'm not totally captured by the idea that bureaucratic neoliberalism is the highest form of justice to possibly exist I can actually tell you how, in broad strokes, ICE should be dismantled. Shockingly it's the same way every major social or economic concession has been won: an organized movement of the working class that demands it. You may want to study the history of major social and economic movements, then, because the people fighting for those movements actually did a ton of excruciating work and were very thorough with the concessions they wanted. Things like 40 hour workweeks and overtime pay were specific things they demanded from government and capital. They didn't just loudly complain about the general problem of insane work hours and leave the solutions to other people. There are other lessons from those movements. One is that the concessions were won over gradually, usually over a period of many decades. The period from the National Labor Union asking Congress to pass an eight-hour workday law to such a law actually going into effect spanned 74 years (from 1866 until 1940), and progress was made with sweat and blood and tears and lives... and a ton of intellectual work. The other lesson is that there were many defeats along the way, and many approaches were tried. For example, the National Labor Union was a big fan of strikes, but the Knights of Labor discouraged those and instead advocated restructuring society along cooperative lines. Then the movement shifted back to strikes and culminated in the bloody Haymarket Affair, which diminished popular support for organized labor. Then it made a resurgence. And so on. In other words, if you want progress, be patient and do your drat homework. You're free to criticize and express disgust at how the government functions but if you want to be taken seriously then when someone asks you what should be done instead and how, you better have some sort of coherent, well-formulated answer beyond "close the camps, abolish ICE" because then people will correctly point out that it's not that simple and you'll get upset. Like, seriously, you've posted paragraphs and paragraphs of text in this thread arguing for Marxist class analysis or whatever. It's something you have obviously given a lot of thought to. Why don't you apply the same level of effort to better understanding why the problems we have with immigration are so complex and what solutions are actually feasible with the Congress we currently have? What exactly do you hope to accomplish with your constant "oh heh, looks like neither Biden nor his Dem buddies want to solve any of these problems  " style posting?Pentecoastal Elites posted:I don't know what that entails, specifically, in America in 2021. I don't know if that means electing radicals into enough positions that they will actually do something about it, or if it means grassroots organization that foments strikes and other unrest until the government capitulates, or something else I don't understand and can't anticipate. I don't know the precise steps involved here but what I do know is how it's not going to get fixed, which is by jerking each other off when the Biden administration tells us that everything is okay and they're workin' on fixin' it, honest, Jack! You accused me of being disingenuous earlier, yet you're doing the same thing here by claiming that we are "jerking each other off when the Biden administration tells us that everything is okay." Virtually every poster in this thread who can be described as "liberal" (by the leftist definition of the word, that is) has repeatedly expressed tremendous disgust and frustration at Biden administration's falling short of its campaign promises. The difference is that you and your friends claim that this lack of progress is on purpose because neither Democrats nor Joe Biden himself actually care about immigration, and every piece of bad news and Twitter hot take that gets slammed into this thread Pentecoastal Elites posted:The idea that the system we live under can produce justice without an exogenous force demanding that it does is utterly deranged, psychotic optimism and is easily recognized as such by anyone who is not totally dependent on that psychotic optimism to let them think they're a good person who is on the good team and saved democracy by voting for an administration who will continue to do the absolute minimum possible to address honest-to-god no-poo poo humanitarian crisis. Pointing out that the problems are immensely complex and intractable and trying to celebrate whatever wins can be achieved in the short term counts as "psychotic optimism"? What is more likely here is that you spend a lot of time elsewhere on the forums getting mad at Twitter accounts of various prominent liberal figures (who can actually credibly be accused of too much optimism) and then you come into threads like this and assume the same qualities about us. Pentecoastal Elites posted:Thinking that it's not fair that I, some guy on the internet, demand the shuttering of the camps and the dissolution of ice without having a workable plan that is legally viable and politically actionable is, I'm sorry, totally loving insane and is clear evidence that you know that the concentration camps are morally inexcusable but can't acknowledge it because it makes you uncomfortable. Everyone is already doing the best they can possibly do, everything is already as good as it can possibly be. Everything is going to be totally fine, it'll just take a lot of time, you just have to trust in the system! I'm sorry that you believe expecting critics to actually understand the thing they are criticizing and put at least a token amount of effort into figuring out what solutions are actually possible is "totally loving insane" to you. To me, what is totally loving insane is believing that all these... I don't know — tantrums? will accomplish anything other than rile up people you have identified as your ideological opponents because you believe they totally and unquestioningly support the system you're criticizing on the basis that the party they like is in charge. Then again, maybe riling up people here is your actual goal, and these forums are just a place for you to vent your frustrations? Pentecoastal Elites posted:ICE is good, actually? This reminds me of the recent QCS episode where someone claimed that explaining something counts as supporting it and everyone laughed at them. What you're doing here is the same thing: Jarmak pointed out that ICE does way more than immigration-related arrests, things that are actually good like going after human traffickers and weapons smugglers, and your response was a childish and flippant "wow, ICE is good actually???" Like, I genuinely don't understand why you continue to post things like that in this thread. What exactly is your aim?
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Jul 27, 2021 18:20
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Slow News Day posted:In other words, if you want progress, be patient and do your drat homework. You're free to criticize and express disgust at how the government functions but if you want to be taken seriously then when someone asks you what should be done instead and how, you better have some sort of coherent, well-formulated answer beyond "close the camps, abolish ICE" because then people will correctly point out that it's not that simple and you'll get upset. It is, in fact, that simple. Close the camps, Abolish ICE. Its functions do not need to be "replaced." Uncle Boogeyman fucked around with this message at 18:28 on Jul 27, 2021 |
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Jul 27, 2021 18:26
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Uncle Boogeyman posted:It is, in fact, that simple. Close the camps, Abolish ICE. Its functions do not need to be "replaced." Human trafficking shouldn't be investigated and prosecuted?
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Jul 27, 2021 18:45
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AVeryLargeRadish posted:Human trafficking shouldn't be investigated and prosecuted? Do you believe that this only began in 2003? The FBI has it's own share of issues, but it is a Federal Bureau of Investigation. Perhaps they, and not the people who are staffing camps, should be the ones investigating such crimes.
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Jul 27, 2021 18:50
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Josef bugman posted:Do you believe that this only began in 2003? The FBI has it's own share of issues, but it is a Federal Bureau of Investigation. Perhaps they, and not the people who are staffing camps, should be the ones investigating such crimes. Of course not. But the person I was responding to said that the functions ICE currently fulfills don't need to be done at all, that includes investigation of human trafficking.
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Jul 27, 2021 18:57
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Personally I'm not comfortable with giving even the scooped-out husk of an agency that has had over 1,224 complaints of sexual abuse of immigrants in their custody any work in combating human trafficking
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Jul 27, 2021 18:59
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AVeryLargeRadish posted:Of course not. But the person I was responding to said that the functions ICE currently fulfills don't need to be done at all, that includes investigation of human trafficking. The functions they currently fulfill are not being done solely by them. Indeed the first google search for "who investigates Human trafficking in the USA" brings up the FBI as the top result. To respond to the second point, the Stasi investigated potential terrorists, does that mean that their mass surveillance and torture should be considered a regrettable fall out of their actions?
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Jul 27, 2021 19:07
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CYBEReris posted:Personally I'm not comfortable with giving even the scooped-out husk of an agency that has had over 1,224 complaints of sexual abuse of immigrants in their custody any work in combating human trafficking Neither am I but I do think that if we're going to abolish said agency that we should have some idea of what that will do. For example, if ICE is abolished does that actually get the camps at the border shut down or do they still exist under the authority of a different agency?
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Jul 27, 2021 19:15
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evilweasel posted:i disagree with this one. The hearing for my cousin's deportation hearing taking several years allowed him to be a father to my niece for several more years before he got deported. Shageletic fucked around with this message at 19:18 on Jul 27, 2021 |
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Jul 27, 2021 19:15
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AVeryLargeRadish posted:Neither am I but I do think that if we're going to abolish said agency that we should have some idea of what that will do. For example, if ICE is abolished does that actually get the camps at the border shut down or do they still exist under the authority of a different agency? Immigration shouldnt be criminalized. Immigration camps are a recent development. Return the politics of immigration away from being entwined with the prison industrial complex. Have immigrants report voluntarily to hearings. Have recent arrivals not be held by any federal agency for more than 3 days as many court cases have ruled. Strengthen social workers and the ability for relatives and friends to claim and house their own. But instead we're gonna give the Border Patrol and "border infrastructure" 10 billion more dollars?
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Jul 27, 2021 19:21
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Josef bugman posted:the first google search I really want you to think about why you would believe this is a good evidentiary basis for your claims.
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Jul 27, 2021 19:30
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Discendo Vox posted:I really want you to think about why you would believe this is a good evidentiary basis for your claims. Because it shows that it is not just ICE who does the investigation of human trafficking? Because it links to the FBI actively talking about how they investigate human trafficking? I'm sorry, but have I said something factually incorrect?
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Jul 27, 2021 19:35
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AVeryLargeRadish posted:Human trafficking shouldn't be investigated and prosecuted? as has been pointed out, we have other organizations to investigate and prosecute those crimes, and while I may have issues with the FBI as well I think it is pretty obvious that the type of people who would sign up to work for ICE should absolutely not be the ones investigating human trafficking. AVeryLargeRadish posted:For example, if ICE is abolished does that actually get the camps at the border shut down or do they still exist under the authority of a different agency? this is why I said "abolish ICE and close the camps," not "abolish ICE but leave the camps open"
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Jul 27, 2021 19:43
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Josef bugman posted:Do you believe that this only began in 2003? The FBI has it's own share of issues, but it is a Federal Bureau of Investigation. Perhaps they, and not the people who are staffing camps, should be the ones investigating such crimes. They're not the same people. As I already posted, the enforcement and removal division is only about half of the organization. Also are you for real? What is it you think the 'I' in HSI stands for?
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Jul 27, 2021 19:56
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Also a lot of this poo poo is run by CBP, which is not part of ICE.
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Jul 27, 2021 19:59
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Jarmak posted:They're not the same people. As I already posted, the enforcement and removal division is only about half of the organization. If your just a clerk for the occupying force, are you not still part of a body that does a vast number of crimes? Or are you only half responsible?
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Jul 27, 2021 20:07
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Josef bugman posted:Because it shows that it is not just ICE who does the investigation of human trafficking? Because it links to the FBI actively talking about how they investigate human trafficking? I'm sorry, but have I said something factually incorrect? This does not justify using your first google result as your basis, based on the fact that it is your first google result, which is what you did. It also does not justify the underlying claim that the functions done by ICE can just be taken over by another entity.
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Jul 27, 2021 20:09
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Josef bugman posted:Do you believe that this only began in 2003? The FBI has it's own share of issues, but it is a Federal Bureau of Investigation. Perhaps they, and not the people who are staffing camps, should be the ones investigating such crimes. Uncle Boogeyman posted:as has been pointed out, we have other organizations to investigate and prosecute those crimes, and while I may have issues with the FBI as well I think it is pretty obvious that the type of people who would sign up to work for ICE should absolutely not be the ones investigating human trafficking. From your suggestions I get the vague impression that you may not be aware of how ICE came to be, and the state of affairs before it. Before the DHS was established, ICE's functions and jurisdictions were handled by different agencies. Immigration violations were handled by the Immigration and Naturalization Service (INS), which was part of the DOJ and worked closely with the DOL (so that it could investigate illegal labor practices with regards to immigrants, such as hiring undocumented workers). There was also a separate task force, called Border Patrol, which did border monitoring. In addition to INS, there were about two dozen different agencies of various sizes that reported to different cabinet secretaries. For example, there was the National Infrastructure Protection Center that was part of the FBI. The National Commucations System was under the Department of Defense. The Critical Infrastructure Assurance Offices were under the Department of Commerce. Etcetera. This separation of tasks and responsibilities created enormous coordination problems, in part because each agency had a different jurisdiction and a different set of responsibilities (sometimes overlapping, which became very messy), and sharing intelligence and handling joint activities were huge issues. This became apparent with the Sept 11 attacks, when it was found that some of the hijackers had already been on terrorist watch lists, but had managed to board planes en route to the USA anyway. With the formation of the DHS, several things happened: - The two dozen or so discrete agencies were rolled into one mega agency, the Department of Homeland Security - INS was changed to US Citizenship and Immigration Services (USCIS) - US Customs Service became the US Customs and Border Protection Agency - The law enforcement arms of INS and Customs Service were folded into the newly created ICE, which became the second largest law enforcement agency in the country (after the FBI) It is kind of interesting that on the one hand, you admit that the FBI "has its own share of issues" (understatement of the century, ladies and gentlemen), while on the other, you want to give it even more responsibilities, which you assume it can perform as well. You also seem to assume that if and when ICE is abolished and its responsibilities folded into the FBI, a lot of the same shitbags who infest ICE will not simply be recruited by the FBI due to their experience with immigration enforcement. Suffice it to say, I think you need to think about this a tad more carefully.
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Jul 27, 2021 20:12
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Discendo Vox posted:This does not justify using your first google result as your basis, based on the fact that it is your first google result, which is what you did. It also does not justify the underlying claim that the functions done by ICE can just be taken over by another entity. So is that a "no" on "did I say something factually incorrect" then?
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Jul 27, 2021 20:13
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