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Mercury_Storm posted:Could 'propaganda as entertainment' as we have in right wing mass media now be considered a unique invention of the 20th/21st century? Wanderer posted:You could argue that it was invented with the late 18th-century "scandal sheets" in the UK, some of which were made to elicit outrage in the same way as any modern broadcast. 1800s American journalism was much more emotional as well, even well before yellow journalism and the instigating of the Spanish-American War. Lynching stories are all kinds of hosed up, with outright advocation of murder and really graphic descriptions of the lynchings themselves. Special mention goes to Thomas Watson's Jeffersonian, which was especially vile in the 1910s. It's not far removed from modern Fox News in views, marketing and national reach. Local weekly newspapers during the Civil Rights era spun down home wisdom and humor with editorials about outsiders agitating their happy Blacks and propaganda for integration academies. Some papers weren't bad, but some were pretty terrible.
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Aug 1, 2021 03:33
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Wanderer posted:You could argue that it was invented with the late 18th-century "scandal sheets" in the UK, some of which were made to elicit outrage in the same way as any modern broadcast. and if not then, definitely with William Randolph Hearst, who often used his press capabilities to smear the hell out of people he just didn't like.
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Aug 1, 2021 04:10
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BiggerBoat posted:I guess this happens on the left too but we're simply not as rabid most of the time so as they come and go it doesn't resonate nearly as much. Michael Moore, Obermann, Maddow, Franken, Maher...you don't hear much from them anymore either so I dunno. Maybe it's the systematic nature of media as entertainment that's constantly in need of new faces and, in the right's case, constantly raising the bar of saying outrageous poo poo to garner attention. Also for why those voices have seemingly disappeared is because a lot of them destroyed themselves and were left in the dustbin of history and the others kind of evolved out of that role. Olbermann, for example, was and still is a combative self-destructive rear end in a top hat and ruined every chance he was given by being a prick to everyone he worked with, so he was shuffled into further and further obscure media corners because virtually no one wanted to work with him anymore. Michael Moore simmilarly ranted and headbutted himself into oblivion. No one likes Bill Maher anymore because better and more intelligent voices have since emerged to replace him and he not only failed to evolve with the times, but he actively, belligerently resisted it and now he only has diehard drain-circlers left willing to lend him the time of day. Franken mellowed significantly since becoming a senator and depending on who you ask either took himself out of public consciousness with his actions, or was pushed out by worse actors looking to score a scalp of their own after certain folks on their team faced consequences for lifetimes of being even worse monsters. And Maddow has also significantly mellowed and matured over the last decade and public perception of her has shifted as well now with her rise in prominence in cable news in general. She's the most-watched non-Fox personality in cable news now, so people have come to view her now as more of a straight news personality with a slight leftward bent and less like the hair on fire arch liberal of her Air America days. nine-gear crow fucked around with this message at 05:39 on Aug 1, 2021 |
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Aug 1, 2021 05:36
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Aristophanes’ The Clouds was both a comedy and a slanderous polemic against Socrates and the Ancient Greek equivalent of progressivism. Also medieval morality plays and hagiographies. And the fact most stories in history intentionally or unintentionally reinforce and promote the status quo and demonize transgressions against. Most entertainment is propaganda whether it means to be or not.
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Aug 1, 2021 06:43
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Wasn't Dante's Inferno just "Here's a bunch of guys I hate, they're all in Hell, take that!"
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Aug 1, 2021 06:48
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Among other things, yes. The Divine Comedy begins with Dante being taken on a tour through Hell and later Purgatory by his favorite poet, Virgil. Their first stop is Limbo, the first layer of Hell, where all the master pre-Christian poets and writers tell Dante that he is their equal if not their greater. Once history's greatest poets are finished fellating Dante, he gets taken on a tour through the rest of Hell where he learns that every one of his political and personal enemies are being tortured forever in Hell. Once the tour of Hell and Purgatory are complete, he is taken on a guided tour of Heaven by the woman he was stalking, who's actually totally into him. Also note that a tour of Heaven is a privilege no actual Biblical characters, not even the Patriarchs, were afforded. The Divine Comedy is the ur-self insert mary sue fanfiction.
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Aug 1, 2021 06:53
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Twelve by Pies posted:Wasn't Dante's Inferno just "Here's a bunch of guys I hate, they're all in Hell, take that!" And also some of his mates he wanted to wag a finger at iirc
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Aug 1, 2021 10:37
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nine-gear crow posted:
I didn't realize that. I never hear her name come up anywhere anymore.
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Aug 1, 2021 11:44
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BiggerBoat posted:I didn't realize that. I never hear her name come up anywhere anymore. She has reached a kind of boring ubiquity, like how no one really talks about Anderson Cooper, or Lester Holt or David Muir—a person who I totally didn’t have to look up at all to find out “hey google, who’s the host of ABC News now?” or anything.
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Aug 1, 2021 12:15
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Twelve by Pies posted:Wasn't Dante's Inferno just "Here's a bunch of guys I hate, they're all in Hell, take that!" The overwhelmingly dominant emotion towards those trapped in Hell is pity, not anger or satisfaction. At one point (Canto X), Dante encounters the father of one of his friends. The father was a Guelph--a member of Dante's political side (who might've been an atheist or something). At another point (Canto XIV), he encounters his own mentor, teacher, and father-figure walking with "sodomites." Dante obviously thought these moments were important, and he uses them to encourage the reader to see the humanity in Hell's sinners, not just their sin. The father might've been heretical, but he was still a father who loved his kid; Dante's teacher may've done some gay stuff, but his spirits are still lifted by the chance to talk to his former student/ward. The latter scene, not Limbo, is where Dante gets extended praise from another writer and thinker, and I can forgive the guy for wanting to believe that his former teacher is proud of him. In those places where he encounters his political adversaries, Dante occasionally has an impulse to enjoy his enemies' suffering, but these reactions are almost always shown to be wrong, and Dante comes to regret them pretty quickly. Example (Canto VIII): quote:And I: "Master, it would suit my whim Dante's malice is not rewarded here. He indulges in it, and gets far more than he asked for (although I will grant that the "to this day I praise and thank God for it" is a dissonant line). It's also worth pointing out that the sins in the lower circles of Hell (six through nine) are considered worse precisely because they are motivated by malice. It's not even sub-text; Virgil explains it directly to Dante in Canto XI, and it would be a very odd thing to include in the kind of wish-fulfillment fantasy that's proposed. There are exceptions, of course. Usually they come from political antiquity, like the aforementioned Brutus/Cassius/Caesar placements (Dante no-poo poo believed Caesar was meant to unite the world and pave the way for Jesus), and...yeah, that actually tracks. Just read the replies above mine to see how easy it is to lose track of nuance and humanity when the subject is hundreds or thousands of years removed from your own circumstances. There is one other exception that's not from antiquity, though. Way down in the ninth circle, Dante kicks a dude's head on accident, and then starts openly loving with him when he recognizes him. Presumably, Dante blamed this guy for betraying the Guelphs in a battle that happened about five years before Dante was born; if true, about 10,000 Guelphs would've died as a result of the betrayal in what Wikipedia tells me was the bloodiest battle in medieval Italy. I'm not saying that justified Dante's treatment or makes it less petty; I'm only pointing out that that's what it took for Dante to get unequivocally vindictive in his representation. Most of the time though, he's much more likely to show compassion, if only because that's more rhetorically useful to (try to) come to a better understanding of the sin.
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Aug 1, 2021 12:54
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I was being facetious on this comedy forum, yeah. But I definitely think you undersell the political aspect. Also 'look at me, I'm so virtuous I pity even my enemies, who are all most assuredly being tortured forever as they deserve.' is absolutely a humblebrag flex that we've seen fundie Christians do IRL all the drat time. EDIT: And I mean, yeah, the Divine Comedy is one of my favorite works and it's a masterful achievement. But I definitely think Dante was indulging himself and working through his anger and issues around the political turmoil in Florence.
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Aug 1, 2021 13:55
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RoboChrist 9000 posted:I was being facetious on this comedy forum, yeah. But I definitely think you undersell the political aspect.
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Aug 1, 2021 14:33
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I was mostly being facetious too but I was more or less going with the "propaganda as entertainment" idea and saying that I feel Dante's Inferno kind of fits that. Even if it's not really wish fulfillment and he's showing pity to them more than smug satisfaction, it still feels like propaganda to write a story saying that this guy who knew your brother was an evil thief and now is in Hell, whether it's in a "Serves you right!" or a "Wow it's so sad he should change his life" way.
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Aug 1, 2021 17:21
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nine-gear crow posted:She has reached a kind of boring ubiquity, like how no one really talks about Anderson Cooper, or Lester Holt or David Muir—a person who I totally didn’t have to look up at all to find out “hey google, who’s the host of ABC News now?” or anything. That makes sense. I cut cable long ago and, believe it or not, I get my news from links that are fairly vetted and posted by people and sites that I trust, including this one. I'll check out the AP or CNN in the morning to get a general sense of what's what as I drink coffee but I don't live and die by who is reporting or talking about what. And I think that's an important distinction between the way my cohorts on the Other Side of the Aisle consume information, the way I do and how we both manage to chew people up and spit them out. I think the idea of "inherently trusted" journalists and journalism in general has gone by the wayside and isn't coming back. There's no more Ed Bradleys or Dan Rathers. I ate up a lot of Michael Moore films and enjoyed some of his books but I didn't act like he was the only person directly informing my opinion and never looked to him to frame what I should think about stuff. The Right really...REALLY...seems to like being told what to think; to the extent that I don't even view what they do as confirmation bias anymore. Over the last 2 decades (let's call it "since 9/11"), the time gap between what the loudest mouths I knew would say and WHEN they would say it was always about 24 hours as they waited for their opinions to be GIVEN to them. I recall ACORN!!! and the stuff that begat "Freedom Fries". poo poo like that. For as free they wast to feel and be, they're remarkably susceptible to listening to and believing poo poo from what one would think are the exact sources they should mistrust. They cite the first amendment but HATE everything about it and the free press with comes with it. They're not free but are always mad at and trust the wrong people. I may not he describing this too well but...I dunno. You get roughly 1/3 of the population totally convinced that the MSM is in the tank for Democrats and is ALWAYS lying, so then those idiots look to YouTube, FB, FOX, Newsmax and talk radio for the truth. As if everything that CNN reports on is automatically a lie (it's not). CNN is rather poo poo but they're mostly not just making poo poo up. Once you can convince someone that a news source is always untruthful, it's not that hard to lead them to propaganda that lies to them even more. It's a lot like how mega churches and MLM's work, which I've touched on before.
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Aug 1, 2021 17:31
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Idk I feel like if I were writing lurid fantasies of my political enemies being tortured in Hell, and I go "gosh isn't it such a pity that they were such huge pieces of poo poo that God has to give them what they deserve, praise and thanks to Him" that kinda seems like reveling in it.
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Aug 1, 2021 20:06
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Also there's still a huge following for Rachel Maddow who goes on massive Russia gate screeds with no proof. She's been beating that drum for five years now
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Aug 1, 2021 20:29
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BiggerBoat posted:Oh, I am too. Just seems like the sort of thing RWM consumers like to get upset about. Dodging the draft is noble for workers, not for the Masters of the Universe who engineered the war in the first place but are too scared to go themselves.
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Aug 1, 2021 20:47
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SSJ_naruto_2003 posted:Also there's still a huge following for Rachel Maddow who goes on massive Russia gate screeds with no proof. She's been beating that drum for five years now Can you elaborate? Maybe the screeds dive into insanity, but I was under the impression "Russiagate" was a way to trivialize the interference/influence in 2016 that the Intel community corroborated and we all just collectively were like "welp, hope that doesn't happen again". My semi-chud dad didn't even know about the explicit callout T made for foreign interference in the election during that early conference about emails. "The dems were just arbitrarily targeting him for impeachment even before he was elected."
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Aug 1, 2021 21:11
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Glory to Italia!
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ILL Machina posted:My semi-chud dad Well I need something else to get this through to My semi-chud kinda dad Baby, baby Well I need something something else He's not listening when I say Trump lied
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Aug 2, 2021 03:05
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dad chud, so what?
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Aug 2, 2021 03:24
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Brawnfire posted:Well I need something else to get this through to 
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Aug 2, 2021 08:56
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Now I'm trying to come up with a version that ends "they all cheer when I say / rush DIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIEEEEEEEEEEED"
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Aug 2, 2021 09:56
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While I was out running errands, Clay and Buck had a whole "But what about the poor landlords?  " segment on their show. And they made it clear that getting rid of landlords and just letting people live in houses sounds nice, sure, but there's reasons why we don't do that. So what are the reasons that we have to have landlords? Well they gave two:1) neighborhoods with rent free housing have the highest crime rates 2) not having landlords is communism That's it, those are the two reasons why landlords must exist, according to brain geniuses Clay Travis and Buck Sexton. Now, the first one confuses me a bit. I'm not sure if they're saying "we're protecting people by having landlords, because it's better to be homeless than to live in a high crime neighborhood" or if it's a racist dogwhistle "you know, those people live in rent free housing, and you know how they are." And the second one is just pure nonsense.
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Aug 2, 2021 19:13
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COVID Lies Rush Dies
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Aug 2, 2021 22:00
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Twelve by Pies posted:While I was out running errands, Clay and Buck had a whole "But what about the poor landlords? Well I can call bullshit on that. Inner cities tend to be where the high crime is at, that's also where the landlords have their "land". Meanwhile out here in the backwoods most people own their own homes and there's no crime at all. I'd say it's a dogwhistle. lovely opinions like that are normally dogwhistles "because the libs took away our rights so we can't say the n-word in the open anymore"
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Aug 3, 2021 01:41
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Twelve by Pies posted:That's it, those are the two reasons why landlords must exist, according to brain geniuses Clay Travis and Buck Sexton. Now, the first one confuses me a bit. I'm not sure if they're saying "we're protecting people by having landlords, because it's better to be homeless than to live in a high crime neighborhood" or if it's a racist dogwhistle "you know, those people live in rent free housing, and you know how they are." And the second one is just pure nonsense. Well I'll give you a hint, they're not acting out of genuine compassionate beliefs that it helps the poor to make them homeless rather than letting them live in subsidized housing which is built in high crime areas. I mean for starters, if being homeless is better than living in a home in a high crime area, people can move out and make themselves homeless whenever they want
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Aug 3, 2021 02:06
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Yeah I know a lot of places that are full of rental properties run by out-of-town landlords. They're messed up, collapsing, paint peeling, brickwork crumbling, burst water pipes and stagnant waste pipes, no heat or AC, rats and roaches. If that's the landlording system functioning then it's literally impossible to do any worse
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Aug 3, 2021 02:07
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Twelve by Pies posted:While I was out running errands, Clay and Buck had a whole "But what about the poor landlords? Definitely a dog whistle, but also weird backwards logic. "Neighborhoods with rent free housing have the highest crime rates" when they say it means "free housing raises crime rates" and not "crime rates are high because those tend to be low income areas which tend to have high crime rates for a large variety of reasons that mostly boil down to people in power hating minorities / the poor" E: a key with a lot of their thinking is taking racist / classist assumptions as facts. "Poor people / minorities get arrested and convicted of crimes more often then well-off whites" causes them to just believe "those people commit more crimes" - it's not a matter of a flawed system or racist policies or anything, that's just how they think nature works. Arguing against it to them would be like arguing that a gorilla isn't strong, or that an elephant isn't big; it's just trying to argue against "facts" to them. This is also why so many right wingers can think they're not racist while openly supporting racist policies, because "its facts, facts aren't racist!" CodfishCartographer fucked around with this message at 02:12 on Aug 3, 2021 |
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Aug 3, 2021 02:08
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CodfishCartographer posted:Definitely a dog whistle, but also weird backwards logic. "Neighborhoods with rent free housing have the highest crime rates" when they say it means "free housing raises crime rates" and not "crime rates are high because those tend to be low income areas which tend to have high crime rates for a large variety of reasons that mostly boil down to people in power hating minorities / the poor" They know crime and poverty are correlated. What they're saying is they want to eliminate poor people. And not by helping them out of poverty, they mean they want all the poor people to die and then there won't be high crime neighborhoods.
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Aug 3, 2021 02:12
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So Tucker is spending this week palling it up with Hungarian fascist leader Viktor Orban https://twitter.com/TuckerCarlson/status/1422344832647712769?s=20
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Aug 3, 2021 02:18
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FlamingLiberal posted:So Tucker is spending this week palling it up with Hungarian fascist leader Viktor Orban Guess he needed to find a place where someone wouldn't call him the worst person ever 
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Aug 3, 2021 02:31
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Is Gorka on the outs with the FNC crowd currently? Wondering if he'd make an appearance
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Aug 3, 2021 03:32
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FlamingLiberal posted:So Tucker is spending this week palling it up with Hungarian fascist leader Viktor Orban He's thirsty for a fascist. Hungary for one too.
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Aug 3, 2021 03:49
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GD_American posted:Is Gorka on the outs with the FNC crowd currently? Wondering if he'd make an appearance Dragon of Budapest is his own master.
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Aug 3, 2021 03:51
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PhazonLink posted:Dragon of Budapest is his own master. THE DRAGON OF BUDAPEST IS THE MASTER OF ALL MASTERS, MR. CHAPO! HOW DARE YOU DEIGN TO DIMINISH HIS DIVINE DE-GREATNESS! I AM CURRENTLY ON ROUTE TO THE DANUBE AS WE SPEAK, MR. CHAPO, TO SMACK THE IGNORANT TELEVISION DINNER TASTE FROM THE MOUTH OF TUCKER SWANSON CARLSON JUNIOR THE THIRD! GORKA WILL NOT BE DENIED!!!!!
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Aug 3, 2021 04:06
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Didn't that dude drive a V6 mustang with an automatic transmission?
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Aug 3, 2021 04:15
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PT6A posted:Didn't that dude drive a V6 mustang with an automatic transmission? With a personalized license plat that said ARTWAR.
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Aug 3, 2021 05:06
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nine-gear crow posted:With a personalized license plat that said ARTWAR. Ahhh poo poo, am I late for the artwar?
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Aug 3, 2021 08:35
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Josef bugman posted:Ahhh poo poo, am I late for the artwar? Artwar never changes. https://twitter.com/Chinchillazllla/status/1150282508854018048
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Aug 3, 2021 08:48
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PT6A posted:Didn't that dude drive a V6 mustang with an automatic transmission? So wait, dude bought a castrated Mustang and is proud of it? I mean I'm all for launching Mustang owners into the sun, but the whole point of a Mustang is to get that holy gently caress V8 manual to substitute your small penis to yank around
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Aug 3, 2021 10:07
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