|
Magnetic North posted:I know that no one gets meaningful raises anymore, that everyone just gets higher pay at the next job. I'm not prepared to leave this job just yet. However, based on a few statements from higher ups regarding pay-raises (when asked about the lack of them since the pandemic), I have been thinking I may be in a position to be successful in getting one if I somehow take the initiative. Of course, I am both an idiot and a coward, so I'm taking these thoughts here. What is meaningful? I got 7% in 2017, 3% in 18, 15% in 19, and 5 in 2020 before getting a new manager and getting demoted in 21
|
#
?
Jul 30, 2021 01:28
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 15, 2024 21:35 |
|
|
Magnetic North posted:I know that no one gets meaningful raises anymore, that everyone just gets higher pay at the next job. I'm not prepared to leave this job just yet. However, based on a few statements from higher ups regarding pay-raises (when asked about the lack of them since the pandemic), I have been thinking I may be in a position to be successful in getting one if I somehow take the initiative. Of course, I am both an idiot and a coward, so I'm taking these thoughts here. I once scheduled a meeting with my bosses boss and explained to him I was doing 60% of the workload for a team of three, as the junior, with two seniors on it. I was extremely well liked and basically shamed him/have him a panic attack. This was in uh, 2012 or 2013 which was a while back, and it was a pretty straight laced sober public company The next day he told me he was working on a raise and a couple weeks later they announced my promotion and I ended up with a (doing the math now) 45% pay raise. I had the statistics to prove it, the other department heads were coming directly to me to fix their problems, and I had been pushing though a lot of tech reforms and replacing outdated systems. So, YMMV TL;DR don't say you're gonna quit, don't make threats, but be prepared to back up your demands with numbers your bosses boss will understand because that's ultimately who's gonna approve your raise Also worth looking at a straight up title bump, that's pretty much the only way for your boss to sell a raise to his boss
|
|
#
?
Jul 30, 2021 02:08
|
|
|
Hmm, okay, so go in with numbers, that's good. Any thoughts on how I say it, like, "I want a raise" or "I need a raise" or "I deserve a raise"? Or do I dress it up with lots of flummery and say "I haven't had a COLA in X time and it's important that my salary to remain competitive, etc etc." Also, any thoughts on how to potentially undermine my working relationship with my boss in this process? I'm of the opinion that every employee's job (outside of looking out for their own well-being) is to make their boss' job easier, but this is one way in which I will be making it harder. We have a darn good relationship right now, which is a part of why I don't want to leave. And does this still stand under the "never say a number" trope? Don't say I want X, just let them offer what they offer and then decide if I want to counteroffer?
|
|
#
?
Jul 30, 2021 13:19
|
|
|
as soon as you talk about things you "want" you are hosed imo. i want a Lamborghini Miura P400 SV but that doesn't mean I am going to get one or even that it is reasonable for me to get one you have to talk about the value you are delivering above your compensation. what are you doing that is delivering value that means you should get more money? "existing" is not sufficient, nor is "im doing my job and haven't gotten a raise in X years" (even if the latter is not fair). When you are asking for a raise you should put out a number, in my opinion. The conversation is "I'm delivering Y value and so deserve X" - that's a much better conversation than "I'm delivering Y value pls give more money depending on how you feel." This isn't a job negotiation, so the tactics are a bit different. you have some other weird stuff going on in your post that makes me think you are approaching this from an ungrounded perspective. Your job is not to make your boss' life easier. Your job is to do the job you are supposed to do. Asking for a raise is not making your boss' job harder. That is part of your boss' job and is the job they are supposed to do - handle development, comp etc.
|
|
#
?
Jul 30, 2021 13:43
|
|
|
It isn't, in fact, a negotiation at all--it's trying to persuade someone to give you something that they don't have to. So it's a lot less about negotiating tactics and a lot more about personal charisma and knowing exactly how to tailor your argument to its intended audience. All variations of supplicatively asking "May I please have a raise?" should be shitcanned. It won't work. Most likely you won't get a significant raise no matter what you do--and announcing to your employer that you know you're underpaid and unhappy about it may well provoke them to put you on the Flight Risk list and begin quietly preparing to replace you--but if you're going to try to get one, you need a very persuasive argument that states explicitly that I deliver $X value and therefore am worth $Y, with the implicitly unsaid thing being that if they don't pay the $Y they're probably going to lose you. And that means you'd better know your value. How easy would it be to get $Y elsewhere? If they answer is "easy" you can confidently ask for it. If the answer is "hard" then you should probably say nothing. If the answer is "I dunno" then you haven't thought this through enough or done enough homework to be ready for this conversation. Lastly, Motronic (I think) posted something a couple years ago that I never forgot, and that is very important in this context: "Your employer doesn't give a poo poo about you as a person. You need to internalize that."
|
|
#
?
Jul 30, 2021 14:17
|
|
|
It’s official: I did not get the job I was offered due to the bankruptcy on my credit check
|
|
#
?
Jul 30, 2021 18:40
|
|
|
Pillowpants posted:It’s official: I did not get the job I was offered due to the bankruptcy on my credit check ah, that sucks
|
|
#
?
Jul 30, 2021 18:57
|
|
|
Pillowpants posted:It’s official: I did not get the job I was offered due to the bankruptcy on my credit check IANAL - Would like more details here because this is surprising. Sorry if I missed, is the industry or role very finance focused? Quick googled article for context: https://www.monster.com/career-advice/article/Past-Bankruptcy-Can-Haunt-Your-Job-Search "If you do suspect a company is using your bankruptcy as the reason not to hire you, call and ask if your credit was a problem and which area of your credit was the issue, so you’ll know what to disclose next time. If the answer is bankruptcy, you can file a complaint with the EEOC and call the US Federal Trade Commission’s Consumer Response Center at 1-877-382-4357. You can also contact the local consumer protection agency or your state attorney general." I do not think they are obligated to tell you the reason why they declined to hire you, but if they are smart about understanding HR law and avoiding a lawsuit it seems it would behoove them to mention your credit. Did you get something in writing that literally says your bankruptcy is the rationale behind their decision...? Inner Light fucked around with this message at 19:14 on Jul 30, 2021 |
|
#
?
Jul 30, 2021 19:11
|
|
|
Thanks for all the advice. I come here to get reality checks, since I am not well versed in all this crap. Maybe I could have learned this in high school instead of about the revolutionary war for the umpteenth time, huh? At least now I'm armed with way more information, and just have to decide if it's right choice to try. Final question (for now, at least): How do you determine your worth? Just google the position name and experience level? That is what I was doing, but I don't know if there's something better.
|
|
#
?
Jul 30, 2021 19:29
|
|
|
You're in tech, right? Look up your company or peer companies on levels.fyi
|
|
#
?
Jul 30, 2021 19:37
|
|
|
Magnetic North posted:Thanks for all the advice. I come here to get reality checks, since I am not well versed in all this crap. Maybe I could have learned this in high school instead of about the revolutionary war for the umpteenth time, huh? At least now I'm armed with way more information, and just have to decide if it's right choice to try. don't worry you wouldn't have paid any more attention to it then than you did to the revolutionary war stuff
|
|
#
?
Jul 30, 2021 19:44
|
|
|
You should be bringing this up to your boss well before review time as well so that if they want to try and get you a raise they have time to do so.
|
|
#
?
Jul 30, 2021 21:24
|
|
|
Inner Light posted:IANAL - Would like more details here because this is surprising. Sorry if I missed, is the industry or role very finance focused? It’s a payroll manager role, which is what I’ve been doing at my current job but it’s in finance at the new place (not anymore new  and HR at the old place.I’m very close to the people at my company now who do checks and they’ve never seen anyone have this happen before - and we are growing a ton Anyways: Transunion sent me a letter last Friday that they received a credit check and reported the bankruptcy, and then on Monday the company called and asked for a write up of the circumstances around the issue on the credit report
|
|
#
?
Jul 30, 2021 21:39
|
|
|
.
Woof Blitzer fucked around with this message at 17:43 on Aug 7, 2021 |
|
#
?
Aug 1, 2021 17:01
|
|
|
Alright, I may be in pretty deep poo poo here and not even know it but I'm coming to you guys to see if I can't get some experience and guidance. I'm just going to absolutely infodump since I'm too frazzled to make a coherent narrative. Currently working at a job that doesn't pay great, but is ridiculously stable and consistent. Been going through a recruiter here for a position that's been up for a little over a month or so with a start-up, they've gone through multiple candidates but none of them were a fit for the corporate culture. They've gone further with me than with any other candidate despite having comparatively less experience, about 2.5 years vs their expected 3-5. Salary range on presentation from recruiter at the start was 90k-110k and the work itself would be difficult, a lot of setting up foundation. I've not shared my salary expectation, but the recruiter has told me that their initial offer was 80k salary with a 15k one year retention bonus and four year vesting equity they estimate between 80k-100k (which call me conservative but I'm just not interested in). Is this bullshit? I was honestly so taken aback by how low the proposed salary was that I was almost offended that I'd wasted so much time. Do I come back and request to personally handle the counter-offer? Would pivoting from 80k with 15k bonus to 100k in salary be absolutely unreasonable at this point, or is the initial anchoring number here that salary range on the recruiters document, and thus sufficient enough to not come off as insulting? I'm just a bit lost and totally aware I may have already made a fool of myself, but any wisdom that could be offered on this whole situation would be tremendously appreciated.
|
|
#
?
Aug 3, 2021 00:08
|
|
|
I'd probably start by asking my recruiter why they sent me an offer 10k below the minimum range they previously stated.
|
|
#
?
Aug 3, 2021 00:24
|
|
|
Parallelwoody posted:I'd probably start by asking my recruiter why they sent me an offer 10k below the minimum range they previously stated. They claimed it was because they want a degree of commitment and performance guarantee on my part due to a comparative lack of experience, and they see the bonus as a part of the salary component. Which as I’m writing this just seems more ridiculous.
|
|
#
?
Aug 3, 2021 00:32
|
|
|
Don't discuss salary until after you've gotten at least a verbal offer, did they give you an offer yet Expect to get 105k compensation + whatever the max equity they offered you, but be willing to flex a little, or trade for a 5 year vest schedule. I can't imagine a startup paying less than 100k in this market for someone with 2+ years experience, unless you live in rural Mississippi or something and kantt speel gud
|
|
#
?
Aug 3, 2021 01:02
|
|
|
Kilbas posted:They claimed it was because they want a degree of commitment and performance guarantee on my part due to a comparative lack of experience, and they see the bonus as a part of the salary component. Which as I’m writing this just seems more ridiculous. My gut reaction: I think you've just discovered why the posting has been up for (a) month(s?) and nobody is a culture fit!
|
|
#
?
Aug 3, 2021 01:02
|
|
|
Honestly I'd just tell the recruiter to gently caress off and go look for a company not looking to buy slave labor at the lowest possible price
|
|
#
?
Aug 3, 2021 01:06
|
|
|
TheParadigm posted:My gut reaction: I think you've just discovered why the posting has been up for (a) month(s?) and nobody is a culture fit! Apparently no one else has gotten far enough into interviews to discuss compensation at this point, but that was my gut reaction too. Hadlock posted:Don't discuss salary until after you've gotten at least a verbal offer, did they give you an offer yet The 80k with 15k bonus is a part of the initial verbal offer proposed to the recruiter before I’ve had an opportunity to discuss it. I’m in Atlanta so it’s not insanely HCOL but it’s not cheap and it’s getting pricier so I would anticipate something more competitive. I don’t know, I’ve thought it over and figure tomorrow I’ll take the initiative to speak with the person hiring himself, propose that this time-gating retention bonus is needless given the vesting schedule is already an incentive to stick around, and that even with the compensation combined into a 95k salary it’s going to be inadequate given I’ve turned down jobs with around 90k first year comp that were far less involved. If it ends up being a total bust then I’ve got no problem telling them to go to hell, not like public accounting is going anywhere anytime soon or that the market isn’t hot as hell. Kilbas fucked around with this message at 01:24 on Aug 3, 2021 |
|
#
?
Aug 3, 2021 01:19
|
|
|
Hadlock posted:Honestly I'd just tell the recruiter to gently caress off and go look for a company not looking to buy slave labor at the lowest possible price It's 100% this.
|
|
#
?
Aug 3, 2021 01:27
|
|
|
The flags are pretty red on this one.
|
|
#
?
Aug 3, 2021 01:50
|
|
|
Parallelwoody posted:The flags are pretty red on this one. You're not wrong. I think some of the situation is a bit more nuanced than I can pass on in a few posts, but it's definitely reason for alarm. Christ.
|
|
#
?
Aug 3, 2021 01:57
|
|
|
I had a two phone screens today - I was upfront about the bankruptcy on both and neither seemed to care, so I guess that was a one off.
|
|
#
?
Aug 3, 2021 02:12
|
|
|
Pillowpants posted:I had a two phone screens today - I was upfront about the bankruptcy on both and neither seemed to care, so I guess that was a one off. really depends on the org/role I guess. Some companies are just really uptight about things.
|
|
#
?
Aug 3, 2021 13:02
|
|
|
So I'm in a unique employment situation. While collecting unemployment checks, I've been working part-time as a personal assistant to an Italian college professor for about 8 months--mostly looking after her NYC property while she's abroad, getting her mail, and dealing with a few sensitive situations. She's also a close personal friend of my partner (which is how I got the job), and they have an almost familial relationship. A few months ago, her son offered me some consulting work, which I haven't done before (I have a small background in media, but I only graduated college a few years ago). In the past couple months, I've done a lot of powerpoint work on freelance consulting projects he's taken on, and after proving my worth, he offered me a role as an "operations manager" for his consulting start-up. So far, I've set up a project tracking system, a payroll and invoicing system, and I'll be streamlingling workflow, outsourcing grunt work, and generally handing day-to-day matters. I'm the only other full-time employee, and he's said that a lot of the company's success relies on the work I'd do. Additionally, he also offered an expanded property manager role at the house i've been looking after (the place needs a number of renovations, so I'll be coordinating with contractors, doing diy projects, airbnbing it, and getting it ready to sell in a couple years). My boss also expressed wanting me to live there, or at least be there frequently, to handle these various tasks. In addition to those two positions, he will also tap me for various projects on another start-up he has in the reinsurance field and for other freelance consulting projects he takes on. So this is like 3.5 jobs, and I've been working a lot of 8-10 hour days. Perhaps the best way to describe the whole package of work is being his "right hand man." The initial offer he verbally showed me was a w2 salary of 52k a year for the property management role and 3k a month for the ops manager role. That seemed great to me, but I later realized I had miscalculated, because he wants to charge me rent to fill out the rent roll--which would be at a market rate of 3800 a month (even though the apartment is not market-ready). I thought he would pay me an additional 3800 a month, on top of the annual 52k & monthly 3k, to pay back in rent, but he later clarified that the salary is there to cover the rent. This would essentially wipe out the 52k salary, if not more (after tax, the salary is only 38k and the annual rent would be 45.6k), leaving me with a measly 3k a month before tax, which is about what I make on unemployment. I also already have an apartment in NYC and only pay 850 a month, so it's not like I'm hard up for housing or relocating from a different city; moving in would just make it a lot easier to put in sweat equity, be legally compliant with airbnb regulations, and catch contractors if they show up early or late. So now I need to negotiate my way out of this poo poo offering and into the money. He knows my unemployment runs out next month and that I don't really have something else lined up. However, I don't think he has anyone else lined up for these jobs, and it would be a pain in the rear end to fill both. And because of my connection to his family, I don't think he wants to gently caress me, but he's a business man, so he obviously doesn't want to pay more than he has to. How can I best describe my value-add to get my price up? How can I best express that paying me well (something in the 60-80k range, although obviously I wont mention a "range") ensures my proactivity and dedication to these projects? Besides what's in the OP, any other tips on negotiating this? Head Bee Guy fucked around with this message at 18:01 on Aug 3, 2021 |
|
#
?
Aug 3, 2021 17:52
|
|
|
Head Bee Guy posted:So I'm in a unique employment situation. While collecting unemployment checks, I've been working part-time as a personal assistant to an Italian college professor for about 8 months--mostly looking after her NYC property while she's abroad, getting her mail, and dealing with a few sensitive situations. She's also a close personal friend of my partner (which is how I got the job), and they have an almost familial relationship. A few months ago, her son offered me some consulting work, which I haven't done before (I have a small background in media, but I only graduated college a few years ago). In the past couple months, I've done a lot of powerpoint work on freelance consulting projects he's taken on, and after proving my worth, he offered me a role as an "operations manager" for his consulting start-up. So far, I've set up a project tracking system, a payroll and invoicing system, and I'll be streamlingling workflow, outsourcing grunt work, and generally handing day-to-day matters. I'm the only other full-time employee, and he's said that a lot of the company's success relies on the work I'd do. I think 60-80k is a minimum number I would shoot for. This could be a very interesting opportunity if you are down for it! But don't short change yourself. The 60-80k would absolutely positively be after accounting for any 'rent payment' you need to make. In other words, your housing should be free, and the 60-80k should be on top of that, even if the accounting and raw numbers don't work out like that. I'm not qualified to figure out the best way to negotiate this situation but that is what I have in my head. e: actually 60-80k seems normal, or a little low to me for those responsibilties in the Midwest. In NYC, you probably should bump it to 100k+. I mean reasonably involved NYC property managers alone probably clear 100k+ and it sounds like the scope of your role would be beyond simply property management. Also make sure you are not signing yourself into indentured servitude. You can do some sweat equity here and there but it should be factored into your work week, it is work after all. It should not be sweat equity, it should be equity equity, what you are paid to do. Inner Light fucked around with this message at 18:20 on Aug 3, 2021 |
|
#
?
Aug 3, 2021 18:16
|
|
|
I think you should take more seriously the possibility that he just wants to gently caress you over for his personal benefit. That doesn't mean you should assume it. You should assume good faith until you see conclusive evidence otherwise--but definitely at least be aware that the possibility exists. That said, that offer seems to me like an extreme lowball. Like right on the borderline between "ask for a ton more because it's at least like 25-30% below the minimum you should accept" and "don't even bother negotiating because it's super obvious he's looking for slave labor". I don't know nearly enough about the situation to give any useful advice beyond definitely don't accept anything near what he just offered you. If you accept this your 8-10 hour days are going to become 10-12 hour days and that is LOL compensation for that kind of workload in NYC. He already knows drat well what your value-add is. I can't get any feel for your real relationship with this guy from your post.
|
|
#
?
Aug 3, 2021 18:22
|
|
|
Kilbas posted:Alright, I may be in pretty deep poo poo here and not even know it but I'm coming to you guys to see if I can't get some experience and guidance. I'm just going to absolutely infodump since I'm too frazzled to make a coherent narrative. Currently working at a job that doesn't pay great, but is ridiculously stable and consistent. Been going through a recruiter here for a position that's been up for a little over a month or so with a start-up, they've gone through multiple candidates but none of them were a fit for the corporate culture. They've gone further with me than with any other candidate despite having comparatively less experience, about 2.5 years vs their expected 3-5. Salary range on presentation from recruiter at the start was 90k-110k and the work itself would be difficult, a lot of setting up foundation. I've not shared my salary expectation, but the recruiter has told me that their initial offer was 80k salary with a 15k one year retention bonus and four year vesting equity they estimate between 80k-100k (which call me conservative but I'm just not interested in). I've been in a similar situation early in my career where I was drastically lowballed on the initial offer, and was similarly insulted. I negotiated up to a satisfactory package but looking back, I wish I'd recognised that this was a massive red flag and found something else. They were just awful to work for and offering lovely wages was something I should have heeded.
|
|
#
?
Aug 3, 2021 18:46
|
|
|
You don't want to be a property manager. You don't want to be a general contractor. You don't want to live in a place that is being renovated. You don't want to work for your partner's friend. You don't want to work for a boss who thinks paying you less than he plans to charge you in rent is a good idea. Seek literally any other opportunity.
|
|
#
?
Aug 3, 2021 21:08
|
|
|
As soon as he said "the $52k is to cover the rent" my first thought would be "so why don't you just give me the rent for free and pay me based on the work I'm doing?" This sounds sketchy as hell. Find another position and extricate from this situation.
|
|
#
?
Aug 3, 2021 21:25
|
|
|
I would also note that your employer having even the tiniest bit of anything to do with your housing is a doubleplusungood situation to be in.
|
|
#
?
Aug 3, 2021 21:28
|
|
|
“I’ll pay you $3k a month to be the property manager while you live there” “Isn’t rent $3.8k/month?” “Yes.” 
|
|
#
?
Aug 3, 2021 22:41
|
|
|
This whole rental thing seems like a (probably technically legal) pass through business tax write off/business loss tax churn scheme designed to greatly reduce their taxable income and effectively giving you a tiny cut of the proceeds
|
|
#
?
Aug 3, 2021 22:53
|
|
|
Hadlock posted:This whole rental thing seems like a (probably technically legal) pass through business tax write off/business loss tax churn scheme designed to greatly reduce their taxable income and effectively giving you a tiny cut of the proceeds Just participating in the great Gig Economy quasi-scam that is AirBnB should be a big red flag, I admit.
|
|
#
?
Aug 3, 2021 23:07
|
|
|
Regarding the company I wasn’t hired at due to bankruptcy, my would be boss at that company called me today (probably unprofessional) to ask why and then spent all day trying to get his boss and legal to change their minds. It didn’t work, but I really didn’t want to go there with eyes on me like that
|
|
#
?
Aug 4, 2021 03:44
|
|
|
Feeling a little bait-and-switched right now. Got a verbal offer for a remote job for 63k with a 5k sign on bonus from the recruiter, however on the initial phone screen she had given me a range of 68-70k. When I asked her about that discrepancy, she said that range was for someone based in New Jersey (where their office is) and I am in Iowa. She knew I was in Iowa from the start so I don't know why I was given that higher range initially. I plan on asking for 70k when I receive the emailed offer. I make 57.5k now so I would be hesitant to make the jump for anything less than upper 60s.
|
|
#
?
Aug 5, 2021 15:00
|
|
|
Yeah changing the salary based on your location for full time remote is bullshit. Not saying it definitely applies to this situation but keep in mind that everyone is desperate to hire right now. Don't be afraid to write them off and look for a better company.
|
|
#
?
Aug 5, 2021 15:16
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 15, 2024 21:35 |
|
|
You should ask for 75K and be fully okay with walking away if they try to give you a dime less than 70K, IMO.
|
|
#
?
Aug 5, 2021 15:31
|
|