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ThomasPaine posted:Which part of my post broke any of the rules? I have not claimed that Chinese policy in Xinjiang does not meet the criteria for genocide according to the UN definition. What precisely have I said that you disagree with? The post you were saying was absolutely correct was outright saying that what China is doing doesn't count as 'real genocide', and you only went on to say that clearly nobody here was meaning real genocide except some jerks who was saying it to slander the Chinese anyways what about the real genocidists, AKA the West? Shockingly, the new, on-going genocide by a country clearly trying to hide it gets a lot of attention.
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Aug 2, 2021 14:46
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My point was only an observation that the industrial slaughter of the holocaust is what most people visualise when they see the word 'genocide' regardless of the UN definition, and that that visceral horror is being used to implicitly attribute a similar extent of human evil to China, which is very misleading, clearly politically motivated, and which gets in the way of any actually productive critique of CCP policy - that I do agree is lovely and might well amount to genocide according to the strict UN definition - by turning them into moustache twirling cartoon villains. Asking for some recognition that there's a difference between Auschwitz and cultural displacement/marginalisation/suppression is very reasonable, and introducing terms to do so is important for productive discussion. I want actual dialogue on the topic, but the issue is pretty much 95% polarised between 'China did nothing wrong' tankies and 'China is literally marching Uighurs into gas chambers' anti-CCP types, and uuuggh god these are both so clearly dumb but we're never going to get anywhere because any deviation from one side or the other gets you dogpiled. ThomasPaine fucked around with this message at 15:11 on Aug 2, 2021 |
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Aug 2, 2021 15:05
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UP AND ADAM posted:Um, yikes. Mods can we squash this chud? wow yikesaroo much? China, i think u mean CHUDNA!
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Aug 2, 2021 18:27
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ThomasPaine posted:My point was only an observation that the industrial slaughter of the holocaust is what most people visualise when they see the word 'genocide' regardless of the UN definition, and that that visceral horror is being used to implicitly attribute a similar extent of human evil to China, which is very misleading, clearly politically motivated, and which gets in the way of any actually productive critique of CCP policy - that I do agree is lovely and might well amount to genocide according to the strict UN definition - by turning them into moustache twirling cartoon villains. Asking for some recognition that there's a difference between Auschwitz and cultural displacement/marginalisation/suppression is very reasonable, and introducing terms to do so is important for productive discussion. On the other hand it might be good to examine why people can only imagine the Holocaust when they hear the word "genocide", and examine why a few powerful nation states managed to make us believe that "it's only genocide if you're killing". Instead of worrying so much about which nation state is going to have its reputation tarnished if we start to use a more expanded (but in line with the original idea) definition of genocide, let's think about how this expanded definition could be used to help marginalized people here in the West. Let's start calling what China is doing to the Uighurs a genocide, because then maybe we can then start calling the boarding schools in Canada a genocide too, and I think people have already been arguing for ages that what the US did to its Native Americans is a genocide. If the US government calls out the persecution of Uighurs as a genocide, people with brains are going to pick up that this use of the definition can be applied elsewhere to things Western countries have done, and let's support that with the aim of helping peoples gain recognition for their suffering while also calling out China too and not using the suffering of one to minimize the suffering of another. There is no dichotomy, there is no need to choose one over the other. gently caress the US, gently caress China, gently caress nation states and their schemes. Let's encourage genocides being called out for what they are. E: to say this all in a different way, you seem to be afraid that calling what China is doing a genocide is a dangerous road to fomenting confusion and hyperbole, but from my perspective it's an opportunity to launch into a larger discussion. America Inc. fucked around with this message at 18:56 on Aug 2, 2021 |
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Aug 2, 2021 18:29
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I have 100% no problem whatsoever with turning a critical eye on the United States' historic and modern genocides. What we did to Native Americans 100, 200 years ago was genocide. The ways we have been failing and actively harming tribal nations in the more modern era is ongoing genocide. This is, however, the China discussion thread, so we'll talk about their ongoing genocide.
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Aug 2, 2021 18:38
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Staluigi posted:any dumb motherfucker comes up to me and says "the indian schools in america weren't systematically intending to kill the indians, even if a bunch die in the process, so it's not genocide" they're being a shitwad about it. likewise with what china is doing. it's genocide. qualifiers loving nothing, it's genocide One of the particularly notable things about the chinese genocide in xinjiang is that the proportion of children going off to boarding schools in xinjiang is, iirc 70-80%, which is considerably higher number than the rest of china and even to other comparably remote regions. notably the rate is essentially uniform both in urban areas and rural areas (thus undermining the 'well we had to send them to residential schools because there were no other schools near by). One of the only other regions that has a comparably high rate of students being sent off to boarding schools is.... tibet. btw i'm citing the ccps own education reports which show this Herstory Begins Now fucked around with this message at 19:02 on Aug 2, 2021 |
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Aug 2, 2021 18:57
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And based upon the mass graves at similar schools in the Americas and worldwide, we can rest soundly that China is doing everything to provide the utmost care for those children.
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Aug 2, 2021 18:59
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How are u posted:I have 100% no problem whatsoever with turning a critical eye on the United States' historic and modern genocides. What we did to Native Americans 100, 200 years ago was genocide. The ways we have been failing and actively harming tribal nations in the more modern era is ongoing genocide. Proposed thread rule: Posters can mention other crimes against humanity done by countries other than China to deflect from China if: - they list 3 organizations of their choice dedicated to helping indigenous peoples or US (or X country) political prisoners which we can donate/volunteer for and, - they have demonstrated that they themselves have made a contribution to said orgs.
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Aug 2, 2021 19:22
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Most genocides where mass death is involved are also incremental. Death camps are a metastasis of re-education centres, or work camps, which in turn often follow from the oppressed class having their ability to travel or engage in public life restricted by law. Forced sterilisation is a relatively modern addition that can achieve many of the objectives of death camps without attracting the same opprobrium, and would certainly qualify as a genocidal act in itself.
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Aug 2, 2021 19:27
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no hay camino posted:Proposed thread rule: Posters can mention other crimes against humanity done by countries other than China to deflect from China if: Welcome everyone to our newly minted Tankies Doctoring Screenshots thread. Seriously, let's not turn genocide denial into a for profit industry. What amazes me is that these dipshits do PRC hasbara work FOR FREE. Like I get the PRC ambassador to Costa Rica posting like a maga chud because his bosses told him that wolf warrior diplomacy was now the states official policy, but why would anyone else who isn't a citizen or paid shill bother? It's just telling on your own limited intellect that you can't think two things are bad at the same time without turning it into a team sport. I know a white Canadian dude who stans Modi and is a Hindu nationalist, equally as baffling to me.
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Aug 2, 2021 20:37
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In other news apparently there's still technology that might be perhaps thankfully be permanently out of CCP's reach. The ability to create sufficiently powerful chips appears to be bottlenecked behind a machine thats only made in one country and there's exceptionally strong export controls to keep China from having it. quote:An EUV machine is made of more than 100,000 parts, costs approximately $120 million, and is shipped in 40 freight containers. There are only several dozen of them on Earth and approximately two years’ worth of back orders for more. It might seem unintuitive that the demand for a $120 million tool far outstrips supply, but only one company can make them. It’s a Dutch company called ASML, which nearly exclusively makes lithography machines for chip manufacturing. Despite this hyperspecialization, it has a market capitalization of more than $150 billion dollars—much higher than IBM’s and only slightly lower than Tesla’s. quote:Other companies make older generations of lithography machines that don’t use EUV and can only make older generations of less cost-effective chips. These companies include venerable firms such as Nikon and Canon. They have the experience, expertise, and market discipline that comes from decades of profitability in a competitive industry under extreme technological demands. If these companies could make EUV machines, they would—it would make them billions of dollars. This is also why, after more than 30 years of development and billions of dollars in R&D, ASML still faces such a backlog of orders: They are hard to make. EUV machines are at the frontier of human technological capabilities. quote:
Hopefully the West can maintain this technological lead.
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Aug 2, 2021 20:43
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Raenir Salazar posted:perhaps thankfully Why?
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Aug 2, 2021 23:26
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Dante80 posted:Why? Because a totalitarian dictatorship that is squeezing every drop of authoritarianism out of technology such as the social credit system and other advance forms of monitoring of its citizens is the last thing the world needs for it to have even more advanced chips to potentially make the next world revolutionary technological leapfrog advance with such as with AI that would make its ability to assert control at home and abroad that much easier. Additionally more advance technology means a more advanced military that might be able to wrest control of the region away from the pax Americana that is responsible for the world's longest uninterrupted period of global growth, peace and prosperity. The day China can pose a credible military threat to the United States is potentially the day the world enters a new dark age as technoauthoritarianism becomes the dominant global paradigm.
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Aug 2, 2021 23:51
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Raenir Salazar posted:Because a totalitarian dictatorship that is squeezing every drop of authoritarianism out of technology such as the social credit system and other advance forms of monitoring of its citizens is the last thing the world needs for it to have even more advanced chips to potentially make the next world revolutionary technological leapfrog advance with such as with AI that would make its ability to assert control at home and abroad that much easier. Additionally more advance technology means a more advanced military that might be able to wrest control of the region away from the pax Americana that is responsible for the world's longest uninterrupted period of global growth, peace and prosperity. The day China can pose a credible military threat to the United States is potentially the day the world enters a new dark age as technoauthoritarianism becomes the dominant global paradigm. Yeah ok but the whole thing you are talking about is irrelevant, for three reasons. 1. SMIC is already at 28nm and bringing 14 - 7nm next year. 2. "China" is simply buying the EUV made chips it needs in the open market, if said chips are not available domestically. That is how globalization works. 3. Chips used for military purposes by any country lag the commercial state of the art by a couple of decades. There are a number of reasons for this. In other words, by the time that 3nm lithography is used in military applications, China is going to have it anyway.
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Aug 3, 2021 00:23
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Dante80 posted:Yeah ok but the whole thing you are talking about is irrelevant, for three reasons. I think it's a little weird to say its irrelevant when I was asking your question, whether you agree with the claims made by the articles seems to be of separate concern? Anyways, the point is that China can't rely on globalization acting in its interests as export controls tighten on China, which I think is one of the main points of the article. Also just because China might be able to bring online 14 to 7nm lithography next year doesn't mean they are able to further close the gap without decades of work. Your first point might be collaborated from this article and it is interesting how I think their conclusions seem to be mutually exclusive, then again I'm no expert and maybe they can both be true at the same time, but I am inclined to think that 7nm production as the article claims if it only really enters mass production in 2023 3nm production could be decades off. Your 3rd point definitely doesn't hold; the internet was originally a military investment afterall. And China has been specifically sourcing "dual use" technologies for both its military modernization program and for domestic civilian use; that's the whole point of the issue at hand because entire Chinese industries exist as a front for the People's Liberation Army to acquire modern military technologies to improve their readiness. It's entirely possible in the modern era for a nation to have advanced hardware it can't produce by itself (many of China's engines for jet aircraft for example) or even maintain without assistance from the vendor (many Middle Eastern nations fielding Soviet equipment, see the paper "Armies of Sand and Snow"). Historically speaking many technologies came to existence through military funding and programs (radars -> microwave ovens, electronic cryptography -> modern computers, Arpanet -> the Internet, ICBMs -> civilian space industry & SpaceX, the list goes on) became widespread and cheap afterwards thanks to private industry. It is entirely possible that for decades if China doesn't succeed in sourcing EUV machines it isn't able to figure out how to build their own for decades without a crash program to do so and by then it will have fallen significantly behind in the tech race; especially as the supply of those chips becomes increasingly precarious; the arms embargo in response to Tiannamen Square held back their military modernization plans by at least a decade after all.
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Aug 3, 2021 01:07
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Thanks for the reply. My third point has to do with the fact that there are no military applications now or in the near future that can be throttled in any way, shape or form by the inability to procure EUV lithography machines.
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Aug 3, 2021 01:13
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I think what is more likely going to curtail Chinese military dominance is the fact that most of their leading carrier group operations knowledge likely comes from Top Gun and The Hunt for Red October because they have barely taken their Ukranian bathtub out of harbour 20 years after buying the loving thing, let alone launched a plane off it, let alone sent it out to the middle of nowhere for six months with twenty other ships in tow etc etc Like, how many more decades of "building" their navy are we going to spot them before we stop assuming it's grown at the same rate as their economy? The Soviet surface navy was always trash, maybe the PLAN will be the same?
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Aug 3, 2021 01:24
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Dante80 posted:Thanks for the reply. My third point has to do with the fact that there are no military applications now or in the near future that can be throttled in any way, shape or form by the inability to procure EUV lithography machines. You're welcome but you're missing the forest for the trees of focusing only on one very narrow aspect of my earlier explanation, which is that these more advanced chips can be used to more efficiently oppress their own people and to export similar "neolegalism" social credit systems that make use of AI and ML around the world as it asserts itself in the global south, like in the anime Psychopass. Second, you are absolutely in no position to know what top secret weapons programs the PLA might have in exploring the use for faster more efficient chips for military applications for smarter, more compact weapon systems; especially for its C6ISR systems to fight a "local conflict under modern high tech conditions" as has been the PLA's modus operandi for the past three decades. As an example the F-35 has been in development since the 1970's and no doubt any similarly major weapons system procurement China might be undergoing similarly will have a similar lead time; "now or in the near future" is an extraordinary claim and limiting access to such chips can delay such programs by years if not decades much like its difficulties to source high performance engines for its jet fighter modernization plan. Additionally no doubt more advanced computer chips can help it improve its simulations and other abilities and capabilities to design and procure advanced technologies such as stealth designs and turbines; everything is related and every bit of technological improvement can and will pay dividends down the line. Franks Happy Place posted:I think what is more likely going to curtail Chinese military dominance is the fact that most of their leading carrier group operations knowledge likely comes from Top Gun and The Hunt for Red October because they have barely taken their Ukranian bathtub out of harbour 20 years after buying the loving thing, let alone launched a plane off it, let alone sent it out to the middle of nowhere for six months with twenty other ships in tow etc etc Err no, we can actually safely conclude that China's PLAN is making steady strides in its carrier aviation capabilities. Building a proper cadre of trained and experienced pilots, officers, ops managers etc is a decades long experience yes, but Japan went from "I dunno I guess they have a navy that's useful to keep Germany bottled up in Asia?" in WW1 to the world's most lethal carrier strike force in what, 20ish years? China has had more than enough time to watch the US, UK, and France perform carrier operations will in the open for easily thrice as long to learn from the best. To add to that point, China isn't looking to the former USSR for its carrier knowledge beyond shipbuilding notes; and the beginning basis from which to build their knowledge and training off of. They absolutely know the USSR's surface navy was to fulfill a specific strategic role best suited for the geopolitical situation and circumstances of the USSR and the Warsaw Pact; which was to interdict NATO's Atlantic supply lines, interfere with Operation REFORGER and to protect its coast and ICBM submarines from attempts to neutralize their second strike capability. China has always been dead set eyes locked on target to establish a world wide blue ocean navy to project power across the globe to protect their trade, supply lines, and national interest and as deterrence in case of conflict over Taiwan or some random islands with Japan. Raenir Salazar fucked around with this message at 01:32 on Aug 3, 2021 |
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Aug 3, 2021 01:26
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I feel like you really missed the second wave of reporting on the "social credit" system. It's not real, and where it is real its basically the same poo poo as our very lovely credit system, or whatever awful services landlords have you register for you. Saying that its good that other countries can't get access to technologies because it would disrupt the Utopian Peace brought on by america, and referencing an anime to make your point is batshit, dude.
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Aug 3, 2021 01:59
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Varinn posted:I feel like you really missed the second wave of reporting on the "social credit" system. It's not real, and where it is real its basically the same poo poo as our very lovely credit system, or whatever awful services landlords have you register for you. Can you provide articles so we can discuss the the specifics of the social credit system on substance? Regardless, the systems in the West that you're alluding to weren't created by the government to control its citizens, but by the private sector as a means of gauging risk; while social credit as far as I am aware, was explicitly created by the government to promote moral values. As for an anime reference, well we live in a world where US Senators read passages from Dr Seuss a children's book out loud to make a point via analogy and the Supreme Court frequently references popular culture such as Die Hard, Spider-Man and so on; I could refer to Minority Report instead, but I would actually have to care about Minority Report as a form of creative expression, and I don't, but I do care about anime and anime has had many many many notable examples of anime that have heavy political themes and biting social commentary and my knowledge base is much wider and thus I can call upon a larger number of relevant works to make my point from the medium of anime. And yeah as I've said before, as a Canadian I directly benefit from the Pax Americana, which protects Canada as a member of NATO from aggression from either China or Russia. It would be foolish to want or support China to overturn the status quo for one dominated by China.
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Aug 3, 2021 02:24
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Can we please post the Guyovich image with the hitler youth child, i think we all need to re-read it.
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Aug 3, 2021 02:31
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To which Anime would you liken our current political relationship with China? (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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Aug 3, 2021 02:35
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Varinn posted:I feel like you really missed the second wave of reporting on the "social credit" system. It's not real, and where it is real its basically the same poo poo as our very lovely credit system, or whatever awful services landlords have you register for you. What? They literally yell about it every time you get on the train. You can just like... look up your social credit score. Edit: They were just going on about it the other day here when they were making everyone get a COVID test. Going down every hall saying you need to take it immediately or it will negatively impact your social credit score.
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Aug 3, 2021 02:35
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BrainDance posted:What? They literally yell about it every time you get on the train. Can you get a detailed report? Like, will it just tell you your number is 78 or will it have all the deductions and bonuses from it? How much of a ding will not taking a Covid test get you? Edit: what are the ranges for social credit? What's a good number? A bad number? I have so many questions. Cpt_Obvious fucked around with this message at 02:42 on Aug 3, 2021 |
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Aug 3, 2021 02:39
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BrainDance posted:What? They literally yell about it every time you get on the train. Does these articles pass a sniff test for you? https://thediplomat.com/2021/03/chinas-social-credit-system-speculation-vs-reality/ https://stratcomcoe.org/publication...de-of-china/209 They're the most recent stuff that comes up on a quick search and references primary sources from the Chinese gov't, and I'm trying to get a realistic view of how it's actually being implemented beyond the aforementioned waves of reporting on it which seemed to at first be somewhat panicky overreaching articles, then repudiations saying it doesn't exist at all.
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Aug 3, 2021 02:43
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Cpt_Obvious posted:Can you get a detailed report? Like, will it just tell you your number is 78 or will it have all the deductions and bonuses from it? How much of a ding will not taking a Covid test get you? It's apparently very different by region and fragmented. This article has some examples, ref the graphic above 4.2, though this examples they're comparing are a few years apart and one is a "trial" https://merics.org/en/report/chinas-social-credit-system-2021-fragmentation-towards-integration
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Aug 3, 2021 02:48
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Cpt_Obvious posted:To which Anime would you liken our current political relationship with China? Legend of the Galactic Heroes
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Aug 3, 2021 03:27
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Raenir Salazar posted:You're welcome but you're missing the forest for the trees of focusing only on one very narrow aspect of my earlier explanation, which is that these more advanced chips can be used to more efficiently oppress their own people and to export similar "neolegalism" social credit systems that make use of AI and ML around the world as it asserts itself in the global south, like in the anime Psychopass. Second, you are absolutely in no position to know what top secret weapons programs the PLA might have in exploring the use for faster more efficient chips for military applications for smarter, more compact weapon systems; especially for its C6ISR systems to fight a "local conflict under modern high tech conditions" as has been the PLA's modus operandi for the past three decades. As an example the F-35 has been in development since the 1970's and no doubt any similarly major weapons system procurement China might be undergoing similarly will have a similar lead time; "now or in the near future" is an extraordinary claim and limiting access to such chips can delay such programs by years if not decades much like its difficulties to source high performance engines for its jet fighter modernization plan. bro. BRO. TCC is over there. lobster shirt posted:
gently caress yes. (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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Aug 3, 2021 07:28
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ThomasPaine posted:Which part of my post broke any of the rules? I have not claimed that Chinese policy in Xinjiang does not meet the criteria for genocide according to the UN definition. What precisely have I said that you disagree with? Lmfao that this meek middle of the road discussion guy actually did end up getting banned. D&D, completely beyond parody. Remember how all you guys got owned when you toxxed for Hillary? Yeah I remember your asses. (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST) (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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Aug 3, 2021 13:37
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It's entirely legitimate to discuss various definitions of what constitutes genocide (and according to what groups institutions), or different types of genocide, and more granular language/specific definitions of genocide is not an endorsement of genocide. It's frankly pretty obvious when someone is just trying to stir poo poo and "just ask questions" and whatshisname clearly wasn't, or if nothing else hadn't made that clear.
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Aug 3, 2021 14:51
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I dont really post in here too much because it seems to attract a lot of annoying (and, dare I say, gullible) USNews types, but at the risk of being thrown into the ban blender: I think it more accurately fits the definition of ethnic cleansing (which can constitute attempts to fundamentally change an ethnic culture) rather than genocide; to my knowledge China is not trying to eradicate its Uyghur population, rather the culture that it views as dangerous (being a reaction to funded Uyghur insurgents, making it akin to WW2 japanese internment camps). A sin on par with when Bush ethnically cleansed Iraq (with the similar goal of reducing ethnic strife), or Israel's treatment of Jerusalem palestinian culture & landmarks (although, to my knowledge, Uyghurs who visit the US to do scathing interviews are still considered chinese citizens and allowed to return). Hopefully the more.....zealous posters can deduce that someone saying that China's camps are ethnic cleansing is not, in fact, suggesting that they are good, nor participating in an action worthy of immediately retreating to a sympathetic moderator. (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST) Neurolimal fucked around with this message at 15:58 on Aug 3, 2021 |
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Aug 3, 2021 15:56
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Neurolimal posted:I dont really post in here too much because it seems to attract a lot of annoying (and, dare I say, gullible) USNews types, but at the risk of being thrown into the ban blender: I think it more accurately fits the definition of ethnic cleansing (which can constitute attempts to fundamentally change an ethnic culture) rather than genocide; to my knowledge China is not trying to eradicate its Uyghur population, rather the culture that it views as dangerous (being a reaction to funded Uyghur insurgents, making it akin to WW2 japanese internment camps). A sin on par with when Bush ethnically cleansed Iraq (with the similar goal of reducing ethnic strife), or Israel's treatment of Jerusalem palestinian culture & landmarks (although, to my knowledge, Uyghurs who visit the US to do scathing interviews are still considered chinese citizens and allowed to return). Imagine going into like, the Canadian Politics thread and trying to argue that residential schools were just "Ethnic cleansing where they tried to eliminate parts of their culture they found to be dangerous, but that hey it's not any worse than what Bush or Israel did." I mean yeah the last guy who tried to do that did get banned IIRC and for good reason. Both are cases of genocide. Like what, is arguing that it's "only cultural genocide" supposed to make people be less concerned about it?
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Aug 3, 2021 16:43
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The hair-splitting between extermination genocide and cultural genocide is very relevant for defining state level policy or in academic research. On a forum of bored people following the world news it's okay to just be outraged at mass crimes against humanity without dictionary definitions and marvel at the occasional creep dropping in to yell about "no proofs only zenz"
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Aug 3, 2021 16:58
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Mr Luxury Yacht posted:Imagine going into like, the Canadian Politics thread and trying to argue that residential schools were just "Ethnic cleansing where they tried to eliminate parts of their culture they found to be dangerous, but that hey it's not any worse than what Bush or Israel did." This is *extremely* relevant because the monstrous entities like residential schools continued to exist until the ~70s or so almost certainly in part because people were at some level given to thinking that "genocide" or, however you want to define it specifically, the systemic elimination of an ethnicity (i.e. their culture and heritage, even if their race/haplogroup/whathaveyou continues to exist), would take the form of actual industrialized killing of certain groups of people. Thus they could see residential schools and say "huh? Nobody is getting massacred here, seems fine" and continue to ignore the elimination of a culture (along with with the hidden death toll, whether from higher rates of malnutrition or more secretive murder, etc.). Seeking to more closely define the exact form in which systemic elimination of an ethnicity is taking place is not an endorsement of it. It's a crucial step in understanding the details of how its taking place so that the public at large can be informed and understand what is going on, and better counter it. Wholesale shutting down *any* discussion of the potential taxonomy of genocide only serves the aims of people who are trying to enact genocide by railroading all discussion into extremes, and when the definition of one extreme - the industrialized killing of specific groups of people - doesn't have clear evidence, all it does is create room for people seeking to champion genocide to argue the other extreme - no systemic elimination of an ethnicity is taking place at all. Yes it's not an easy conversation, yes it can potentially be hijacked by people who are not arguing in good faith and seeking to muddy the water, but shutting it down entirely from the start *can only be a bad thing* especially in space like D&D which is (ostensibly) specifically existing to engender hopefully productive conversation about difficult subjects. Somaen posted:The hair-splitting between extermination genocide and cultural genocide is very relevant for defining state level policy or in academic research. On a forum of bored people following the world news it's okay to just be outraged at mass crimes against humanity without dictionary definitions and marvel at the occasional creep dropping in to yell about "no proofs only zenz" Take it to GBS then?
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Aug 3, 2021 17:39
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Somaen posted:The hair-splitting between extermination genocide and cultural genocide is very relevant for defining state level policy or in academic research. On a forum of bored people following the world news it's okay to just be outraged at mass crimes against humanity without dictionary definitions and marvel at the occasional creep dropping in to yell about "no proofs only zenz" yes, marching children into gas chambers and making lampshades out of their skins is, imo, worse than not doing that, but that's just my two cents UP AND ADAM posted:Lmfao that this meek middle of the road discussion guy actually did end up getting banned. D&D, completely beyond parody. Remember how all you guys got owned when you toxxed for Hillary? Yeah I remember your asses. Bit rude tbqh (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST) (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST) ThomasPaine fucked around with this message at 18:03 on Aug 3, 2021 |
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Aug 3, 2021 18:00
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LimburgLimbo posted:This is *extremely* relevant because the monstrous entities like residential schools continued to exist until the ~70s or so almost certainly in part because people were at some level given to thinking that "genocide" or, however you want to define it specifically, the systemic elimination of an ethnicity (i.e. their culture and heritage, even if their race/haplogroup/whathaveyou continues to exist), would take the form of actual industrialized killing of certain groups of people. Thus they could see residential schools and say "huh? Nobody is getting massacred here, seems fine" and continue to ignore the elimination of a culture (along with with the hidden death toll, whether from higher rates of malnutrition or more secretive murder, etc.). This doesn't really make any sense considering that the industrial genocide you're talking about was only 30 years in the past in the 70s, and those schools are a good deal older than that. People who like what is going on will always make excuses about it. Before the Holocaust it was actually considered to be uplifting them. You seem to be instead saying that we should give into the railing of the definition of genocide into only meaning the most extreme form of industrialized genocide, instead of simply saying the truth: Ethnic cleansing is also genocide. It's been the recognized meaning since the 40s when industrialized genocide was at its most visual peak to the entire world. All this "we must hash out exactly what it is that isn't genocide" serves is to allow the people who are fine with what is happening to deny that it is all that bad.
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Aug 3, 2021 18:08
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LimburgLimbo posted:Seeking to more closely define the exact form in which systemic elimination of an ethnicity is taking place is not an endorsement of it. It's a crucial step in understanding the details of how its taking place so that the public at large can be informed and understand what is going on, and better counter it. Who is doing this? People are trying to discuss what is actually happening based on reports from NGOs and refugees from the area. There are reports of forced labour, people being forced to give up their religion, rape, torture and sterilization. The only people bringing up extermination are the just-asking-questions guys dropping in to say that people might think of the holocaust if you say genocide and it's not as bad as the holocaust. No one is disputing this quote:Take it to GBS then? As soon as this turns into a subforum of dry academic discussion instead of pretentious politics-explainers, sure quote:yes, marching children into gas chambers and making lampshades out of their skins is, imo, worse than not doing that, but that's just my two cents Nice. My two cents is that what they're doing is bad and should be condemned independently on whether worse things have happened Somaen fucked around with this message at 18:16 on Aug 3, 2021 |
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Aug 3, 2021 18:09
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Just call it crimes against humanity, since that covers all the -cide bases pretty well.
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Aug 3, 2021 19:13
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Neurolimal posted:(although, to my knowledge, Uyghurs who visit the US to do scathing interviews are still considered chinese citizens and allowed to return). Oh I'm SURE they're allowed to return.
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Aug 3, 2021 22:09
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