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sethsez posted:This reads like PC is the platform for labors of love and Quest is the platform for soulless money vacuums, which is... certainly a take. Personal computers are the platform of cool weird indie poo poo and always have been.
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Aug 3, 2021 02:35
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KakerMix posted:You're supposed to read it more of a "capitalism is the death of us all maaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaan" take, not a platform defense thing. There are probably going to be a lot more compromises on someone's artistic vision on a closed platform vs. an open one, just because there are more rules that must be followed from hardware requirements to content in your actual game. I would by and large agree with this but I think you're overstating how closed Quest is, it's so way more open than any traditional console it's not even close. There are even large modding communities for games, which I don't think you get on any other platform than PC. I would agree that this is open to change (though I don't think it will), but currently it's pretty open.
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Aug 3, 2021 02:36
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Lemming posted:https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Google_Daydream#Lenovo_Mirage_Solo Yeah, but that's also from Google, a company which constantly looks into new things and then immediately gets bored and wanders off. lovely as it seems, I think you really do need someone like Zuck or Gabe (Obviously the latter more than the former, since Valve is literally just a private company where Gabe has pretty much total control, but Zuckerberg still exerts pretty significant influence over Facebook) to say 'I think this thing is where profit is going to be, so we're doing it now and it doesn't matter if we lose money on it for the near future' Where we are now, though, I think Facebook has a significant research gap over companies who haven't even gotten into the VR business yet.
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Aug 3, 2021 02:36
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Blade Runner posted:Yeah, but that's also from Google, a company which constantly looks into new things and then immediately gets bored and wanders off. lovely as it seems, I think you really do need someone like Zuck or Gabe (Obviously the latter more than the former, since Valve is literally just a private company where Gabe has pretty much total control, but Zuckerberg still exerts pretty significant influence over Facebook) to say 'I think this thing is where profit is going to be, so we're doing it now and it doesn't matter if we lose money on it for the near future' Totally, I just mean to say that I don't think this is a situation where Facebook being the frontrunner of VR was an inevitability, it was the result of other companies choosing not to compete with them, they definitely could have given different priorities Which means I'm more frustrated, since if Facebook just sat down and said "gently caress you all we win" and there wasn't really any other company with a chance then it would just be like, drat, that sucks
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Aug 3, 2021 02:42
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Lemming posted:I would by and large agree with this but I think you're overstating how closed Quest is, it's so way more open than any traditional console it's not even close. There are even large modding communities for games, which I don't think you get on any other platform than PC. I would agree that this is open to change (though I don't think it will), but currently it's pretty open. I'm speaking from ignorance, I've never used one. My wife has one and likes it quite a bit, but she does wrestle with facebook being facebook and it hampers her enjoyment. Still though, it might be more open than an Xbone but you're still locked behind facebook in weird ways. That it requires an account and you might get banned from your quest because of something that happens outside of it, or the constant trickle of people in this very thread trying to get their Quest to update so they get the newest features is a big one, it isn't a rule and it isn't exactly closed but you still are waiting on facebook to do a thing when it decides.
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Aug 3, 2021 02:46
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KakerMix posted:I'm speaking from ignorance, I've never used one. My wife has one and likes it quite a bit, but she does wrestle with facebook being facebook and it hampers her enjoyment. Still though, it might be more open than an Xbone but you're still locked behind facebook in weird ways. That it requires an account and you might get banned from your quest because of something that happens outside of it, or the constant trickle of people in this very thread trying to get their Quest to update so they get the newest features is a big one, it isn't a rule and it isn't exactly closed but you still are waiting on facebook to do a thing when it decides. Totally, and those are absolutely reasonable consumer side issues, I just mean that in terms of building stuff, it's really easy to make things and share them (not as easy as PC, but still in ways you absolutely cannot do on any console). As long as you've enabled developer mode, you can just share apk's with people and they can install and run them, and with stuff like Sidequest (which you can put almost anything on really fast, within a few days), and App Labs (longer term, usually seems to take around 5 weeks at this point, and they have a few usability restrictions but you can literally put a cube in a room and they'll approve it) you can make and share stuff as a rando. I think it's open enough that there are practically not really any limitations on building stuff for it, beyond the weaker hardware. I mostly just mean to say that I think it's sufficiently open that "breakthrough surprise successes come from the open places." does apply to the Quest at this point, though I'll also agree that the bigger studios and stuff are going to target it more purely from a business point of view
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Aug 3, 2021 02:52
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Lemming posted:Totally, I just mean to say that I don't think this is a situation where Facebook being the frontrunner of VR was an inevitability, it was the result of other companies choosing not to compete with them, they definitely could have given different priorities I think this does raise a question of whether or not, without Facebook, we'd be in the same place. Would another company have picked it up and ran with it instead, or would we just not have had something like the Quest at the price point it is to drive adoption? Lemming posted:I would by and large agree with this but I think you're overstating how closed Quest is, it's so way more open than any traditional console it's not even close. There are even large modding communities for games, which I don't think you get on any other platform than PC. I would agree that this is open to change (though I don't think it will), but currently it's pretty open. I will say that lovely as Facebook is, right now the Quest doesn't really do very much to collect your data and the platform is pretty open due to essentially just being Android. It's absolutely a great machine as it is. However, the reason I think this is going to change, and a lot of people think that's going to change, is that a lot of that relies on Facebook turning either no or a very marginal profit while they push people into their storefront, because they really want the "Well I already have games with Oculus" effect to come in later. Will they leverage that control to close off their store more and make more profit at some later time? It's possible they won't, certainly, but it's a little difficult to imagine it won't happen at some point. Basically, Facebook has to turn a profit on this somehow, and waiting for how they're going to do that can be kind of a sword of Damocles.
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Aug 3, 2021 02:53
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SCheeseman posted:Personal computers are the platform of cool weird indie poo poo and always have been. I love cool weird indie poo poo but this strict dichotomy feels like it's straight out of 1998. Consoles are home to plenty of weird labors of love made by single-digit teams these days. And like... this is VR we're talking about. Everyone saying "I'm selling more on Quest" is an indie dev. There's only been a few high-budget AAA VR games, and those ain't on the Quest: practically the entire market regardless of platform has been indie-driven.
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Aug 3, 2021 02:54
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The dichotomy still exists and always will, consoles are by definition a more curated experience and as such there is considerably less cool weird indie poo poo. With Quest's success, those indie teams will start being bought up; Facebook has been doing a lot of that. Admittedly Quest is still kinda/sorta open with Sidequest and Applab, but Facebook has those on leash.
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Aug 3, 2021 02:59
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Lemming posted:https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Google_Daydream#Lenovo_Mirage_Solo Wait, that actually made it to retail? That, and the fact that it apparently had less than zero marketing behind it, makes the fact that Google unceremoniously flushed Daydream even more infuriating.
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Aug 3, 2021 02:59
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Blade Runner posted:I think this does raise a question of whether or not, without Facebook, we'd be in the same place. Would another company have picked it up and ran with it instead, or would we just not have had something like the Quest at the price point it is to drive adoption? Honestly, I don't think so, and that's in large part because I'm pretty sure Facebook only barely decided to focus on standalone stuff, and the fact that they did is almost entirely a result of how hard Carmack was pushing for it. It seems like all the previous Oculus people were thinking more about higher end PCVR stuff, and you could tell in some of his earlier talks Carmack spoke with frustration about how difficult it was to get their research focused on stuff like camera based inside out tracking. I firmly believe that they didn't make the Quest with an informed understanding of how important standalone would be, and it was largely luck + Carmack Blade Runner posted:I will say that lovely as Facebook is, right now the Quest doesn't really do very much to collect your data and the platform is pretty open due to essentially just being Android. It's absolutely a great machine as it is. However, the reason I think this is going to change, and a lot of people think that's going to change, is that a lot of that relies on Facebook turning either no or a very marginal profit while they push people into their storefront, because they really want the "Well I already have games with Oculus" effect to come in later. Will they leverage that control to close off their store more and make more profit at some later time? It's possible they won't, certainly, but it's a little difficult to imagine it won't happen at some point. Basically, Facebook has to turn a profit on this somehow, and waiting for how they're going to do that can be kind of a sword of Damocles. At this point, Facebook is pretty much synonymous with VR. Anything that moves VR forward helps them, because they're at the forefront, which I think is their aim. I don't think they want to close stuff off so much as being the biggest platform for VR and having enough of an early advantage that they are just kind of everywhere. You can see where they're talking about things more in terms of "metaverse" (where I think their understanding of what that is and means is completely misplaced, but it's still their goal) that they want to own and control. I'm not sure they'll care how people get access to VR, as long as they're getting to it on their platform, which is looking more and more like how things are going.
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Aug 3, 2021 03:00
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Let's say I want to play beat sabre. It's on steam but also on the quest store. The facebook version is $30 but I can get it in a humble bundle for waaaay cheaper. Is there anyway to upload the steam version into the quest , for when I take the headset places? I'm assuming not. Also I don't love the idea of watching VR pornhub on a device wired directly to my facebook account. But if I was, what's the best way to watch VR porn on a quest2? Asking for a friend.
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Aug 3, 2021 03:01
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Dr_Amazing posted:Let's say I want to play beat sabre. It's on steam but also on the quest store. The facebook version is $30 but I can get it in a humble bundle for waaaay cheaper. Is there anyway to upload the steam version into the quest , for when I take the headset places? I'm assuming not. Nah. Even the Rift version isn't cross platform with Quest, you gotta buy it twice.
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Aug 3, 2021 03:04
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SCheeseman posted:The dichotomy still exists and always will, consoles are by definition a more curated experience and as such there is considerably less cool weird indie poo poo. With Quest's success, those indie teams will start being bought up; Facebook has been doing a lot of that. I don't disagree, but I think there's a pretty huge gulf between an experimental fishing game on itch.io and an Ubisoft Tower Climber, and even closed platforms are now far more accessible to indie developers than they ever have been. I still think there's a place for PCVR (obviously, it's the most powerful and most open platform), but I also think the differences between the Quest and PCVR as they actually exist are being exaggerated quite a bit. Both formats are still dominated by small indie teams making wave shooters, rhythm games and escape rooms.
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Aug 3, 2021 03:21
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Lemming posted:
They might not want to close off anything yet, but the fact that we already had a "oh whoops  " Quest account banning happening at the full control of their algorithm speaks volumes, in that they knew full well people would get slammed left and right through no fault of their own but they didn't care and did it anyway. Later, all it is going to take is someone to suggest that they can make X more dollars closing off a section of their currently more-open-than-you-expect development area for them to clamp down hard because they own it all, what are you going to do about it?I do not trust Oculus or facebook at all to do things that are ultimately better for them in the long term. It might be working out right now, but not too long ago similar sort of talks were happening but it was "Naw Oculus would never require a Facebook account, that's silly!". Why would it stop later? Facebook is already doing goofy poo poo where someone posts a toy and you get 'YOU MIGHT HAVE BEEN EXPOSED TO HATE SPEECH' but yet full-blown nazi groups still galivant around their platform with zero obstructions.
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Aug 3, 2021 03:50
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KakerMix posted:They might not want to close off anything yet, but the fact that we already had a "oh whoops Well, I don't think those are good ideas for them for the reasons you've outlined, having things more open allows more innovation to happen, and at this point they pretty much automatically benefit from good VR stuff getting created anywhere, since there's a high chance someone will use one of their devices to play it even if it's on PC. That said, I think that's a different issue than the status quo, which is still pretty open at this point; at least, it's not a roadblock for people making/sharing right now.
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Aug 3, 2021 04:06
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Lemming posted:Well, I don't think those are good ideas for them for the reasons you've outlined, having things more open allows more innovation to happen, and at this point they pretty much automatically benefit from good VR stuff getting created anywhere, since there's a high chance someone will use one of their devices to play it even if it's on PC. That said, I think that's a different issue than the status quo, which is still pretty open at this point; at least, it's not a roadblock for people making/sharing right now. Well, driving adoption of their platform isn't in itself the long term goal in absentia of everything else, and I'd be curious about how much profit they actually make off of their store. They currently benefit from these things, yes, because their current goal is to get people onto their platform. Once everyone is on their platform, though, who knows what they're going to do and how they're going to pivot with that dominance? I understand that this can seem mildly like fearmongering in the sense that "Well we can't know what they might do in the future" is a pretty meaningless statement, but if they're not really making any money off of any of this, they're going to have to do so eventually. The way they do that is likely going to be closing off the platform more so they can charge a premium on software; or, in Facebook form, selling data. Which of those it'll be is kind of up in the air, but I don't see a way for them to make the amount of profit they want while also continuing on in this fashion. Cuts of software sales can make a ton of money long term, but I don't think the current way they're doing it would be enough for them to actually turn a significant profit on what's likely been an enormous investment. Either way, us pontificating about this is kinda a moot point; PCVR definitely isn't going anywhere, but Facebook pretty much owns VR currently, and I can't see that changing any time soon.
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Aug 3, 2021 04:45
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Turin Turambar posted:Like the table tennis game and the mini golf game, I feel this will be a must have for me I can't imagine playing this and not faceplanting trying to lean on the table.
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Aug 3, 2021 05:20
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raditts posted:Wait, that actually made it to retail? That, and the fact that it apparently had less than zero marketing behind it, makes the fact that Google unceremoniously flushed Daydream even more infuriating. The mirage was also only $399, and they were boasting of other OEM partner that were going to start making stand alone daydream headsets and showing off experimental 6dof controllers for daydream. They were there and right on the cusp of a full agnostic android like (in the sense of what android gave cell phone makers) system for manufacturers of VR sets to use. If daydream had kept being supported and developed by google for one more year, they would have had an ecosystem and software ready made for any yahoo OEM that wanted it, smack dab in the point where people were seeing how Quest was selling gangbusters. Lmao if VR ever really becomes huge and mainstream, when people are writing the history of it there will be some fun stories of missed opportunity about google in there, I have no doubt.
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Aug 3, 2021 05:23
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KakerMix posted:There are fewer and fewer console exclusives, to me that means PCs have won. I just played through Resident Evil Village with ray tracing at 3440x1440 with keyboard and mouse. Lol, no. When's the last time you saw a game built expressly to take advantage of a poo poo-hot new graphics card? Crysis 1 maybe? Everything mainstream is specced to console performance and controls first because that'll get the most people playing it. On consoles. PC's A market, but it hasn't been the primary one for mainstream games in a long time. Exclusives haven't really changed either; If anything Sony and Microsoft are doubling down on them by buying up their exclusives making studios. Stuff like REVIllage getting a PC release is also different issue rising from getting Japanese developers to acknowledge PC gaming as a platform at all.
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Aug 3, 2021 05:34
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Origami Dali posted:I can't imagine playing this and not faceplanting trying to lean on the table. There's a VR game called Golf Pool where you play pool standing on the table and hitting the balls with a putter and I think the concept is kind of low key brilliant. I haven't actually played it so I can't vouch for the implementation but it's a pretty clever way around the issues with playing pool in VR.
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Aug 3, 2021 05:41
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Neddy Seagoon posted:Lol, no. When's the last time you saw a game built expressly to take advantage of a poo poo-hot new graphics card? Crysis 1 maybe? Everything mainstream is specced to console performance and controls first because that'll get the most people playing it.  Lol, yes? What is it with people speaking in raw absolutes? Like that person earlier focusing on most money being how you define success, now you're here categorizing whether or not a game built specifically to take advantage wizz-bang new graphics card as the defining factor if it's a win for PC or not. I don't really care if a game is made for lower hardware, then scaled up. The fact is I didn't have to buy a PS5 to play the newest Resident Evil like I used to, nor do I have to buy an Xbox to play whatever new Forza game comes out means the PC won. I just gave an example how I played a game on my PC with PC hardware, doing it at weirdo-ultrawide resolution with rock solid framerate and a bunch of graphical stuff flipped on. Seems like it's taking advantage of my hardware to me!
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Aug 3, 2021 05:47
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It doesn't make sense to monolithically refer to 'Facebook' in statements as if the word itself is enough context. Oculus got to where it was by pulling in strong names with big ideas, Facebook's money brought in more, but what we haven't seen yet is what happens when the R&D team that got them this far end up swapped out for company men who have no idea where to go next beyond what the algorithm tells them people respond to. When you say 'Facebook' has control of the market it doesn't ring true because they literally just stuck their sign over the company that got them this far and the glue is barely dry. If/when Facebook drain VR talent, which they inevitably will as they shift to money-making mode, a significant window of fuckery will open up and the missteps that follow will allow for plenty of shots at rival devices.
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Aug 3, 2021 06:05
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Super Foul Egg posted:When you say 'Facebook' has control of the market it doesn't ring true because they literally just stuck their sign over the company that got them this far and the glue is barely dry. Facebook bought the company in 2014, about 2 years before they released their first commercial headset.
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Aug 3, 2021 06:10
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Super Foul Egg posted:It doesn't make sense to monolithically refer to 'Facebook' in statements as if the word itself is enough context. Quest happened without the support of a lot of the more original Oculus people; Brendan Irebe notably left after they cancelled Rift 2 https://techcrunch.com/2018/10/22/oculus-co-founder-is-leaving-facebook-after-cancellation-of-rift-2-headset/ (canceling Rift 2, in hindsight, was probably the right move). To some unclear degree, Quest and Quest 2 are pretty post-Facebook acquisition Which is not to say that I think they have a clear path and the understanding to get where they wanna go, a lot of what they're currently doing does seem to still be flailing around, but I'm not sure that, like, the original Oculus people would necessarily have a better understanding. Frankly it's not really clear to me anyone has any idea what the hell they're doing with regards to VR
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Aug 3, 2021 06:10
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Super Foul Egg posted:It doesn't make sense to monolithically refer to 'Facebook' in statements as if the word itself is enough context. But they have done. They promoted Oculus' people out of the way and put their own in their place at the head of the studio. They've also made clear what they want every time they've done their annual VR tech demo's. Their window of fuckery is killing Sideloading slowly with their own friendly alternative in App Labs so nobody will be upset when it's excised from later models, as well as mandating Facebook accounts going forward. There isn't going to be one single day of "Lol, it's all evil now", it's a systematic eroding of customer rights inch-by-inch so they don't realize how hard they're getting hosed over. There's a reason their terms and service all have a "for now" addendum to everything.
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Aug 3, 2021 06:26
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Tip posted:There's a VR game called Golf Pool where you play pool standing on the table and hitting the balls with a putter and I think the concept is kind of low key brilliant. Its fine. It plays alright and its a decent way to chit chat and "do something".
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Aug 3, 2021 06:37
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Speaking of chit chat games. I've owned Bridge Crew for years now and have never played it, probably dead now. Was it cool?
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Aug 3, 2021 07:14
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Senator Drinksalot posted:Speaking of chit chat games. I've owned Bridge Crew for years now and have never played it, probably dead now. Was it cool? Its a limited game with only a little bit of content, but for what it is, if you're any kind of a Trekkie, its pretty incredible. You can play it solo with bots if you just want to hop in and see. It was best as a social VR game, although you only need one other person to really enjoy it, so if you can just get a goon on discord to agree or something you can still enjoy it. Its not like you need matchmaking with 16 players or anything.
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Aug 3, 2021 07:35
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Not enough of a trekkie to wanna play solo but yeah my friend and i both have it maybe we can find that bucket thing odo slept in
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Aug 3, 2021 07:51
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Private Speech posted:I really want to build a new vr rig but realistically with UK prices that's like £1600 at least and I can't afford to pay that much to go from "bit laggy but mostly playable on reasonable settings" to "actually smooth and good looking". If you're not dead set on bleeding edge stuff you could build a capable VR machine around a 3060 Ti, which are starting to be available around £450. It's a long way from a good deal but considerably better than its been for the past year.
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Aug 3, 2021 08:24
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Party Boat posted:If you're not dead set on bleeding edge stuff you could build a capable VR machine around a 3060 Ti, which are starting to be available around £450. It's a long way from a good deal but considerably better than its been for the past year.
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Aug 3, 2021 08:38
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I have no special knowledge but I'd say it's closer to the latter than the former. We've got a perfect storm right now of huge demand (partially from crypto but also from a bunch of PC gamers who've put off upgrades until now) and supply issues from various industries competing for manufacturing time at the fabrication facilities, a lot of which has been made worse by covid delays. The former bumps up retail prices and makes cards hard to find, but the latter increases the price floor across the board. Put it this way, I've always been a fairly frugal gamer and never paid more than £250 for a graphics card before. However I don't ever see that being possible again - £400-£500 looks like the new entry level even after things return to "normal".
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Aug 3, 2021 08:55
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Vib Rib posted:As someone with their finger far from the pulse, has anyone in the industry or in the know given any kind of estimate when GPU prices will return to sanity, or is this just the new normal for the foreseeable future? Companies are saying 'well into 2022'. I think it all depends on covid finally going away (or a new variant screwing us).
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Aug 3, 2021 09:03
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Yeah global supply chains are turbofucked, get your christmas shopping done now
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Aug 3, 2021 09:27
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Crypto is so goddamn motherfucking stupid
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Aug 3, 2021 09:48
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Continuing with yesterday's hot takes, here is another one! https://www.wired.com/story/virtual-reality-rich-white-kid-of-technology/
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Aug 3, 2021 09:55
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See now that's a properly stupid take, the argument that PCVR is going to fade in favour of standalone at least has data to back it up while this one is basically VR has failed because people still play regular videogames.
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Aug 3, 2021 10:06
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If your metric for success is "does it meet the expectations set for it by a cover story in WIRED magazine" then everything's a failure
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Aug 3, 2021 11:05
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Especially a cover story no-one probably remembers since the truly iconic VR magazine cover was Time.
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Aug 3, 2021 11:07
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