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Do you prefer the extended summer thread format? This poll is closed. |
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| Yes |
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126 | 44.21% |
| No |
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39 | 13.68% |
| I'm Scottish |
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120 | 42.11% |
| Total: | 285 votes | ||
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Noxville posted:Labour is riddled with TERFs
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Aug 4, 2021 21:55
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TACD posted:Could those of you who are more switched-on to the transphobe stuff educate me on which parts of this are specifically anti-trans and why? Like, a lot of the phrasing rings alarm bells for me because this thread has introduced me to a lot of exciting new transphobic content (yay?) but I'd be hard-pressed to explain to a third party why this is transphobic rather than simply pro-women (and I have to imagine that some of the signatories would have read it that way too). It's not explicitly transphobic but is very dogwhistly, especially around the single-sex toilet issue etc.
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Aug 4, 2021 21:59
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Skarsnik posted:Stock up on sex arses, gotcha The container transport that blocked the Suez a few months back is being unloaded. Shouldn't there be a glut of sex arses?
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Aug 4, 2021 22:02
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Basically that specific set of complaints really only makes any sense if you sub in "because I am certain trans people are doing this" at the end of every sentence which only idiots believe.
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Aug 4, 2021 22:06
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"sex based rights" is a dogwhistle for "the right to exclude trans women" (normal people would say "gender" in that context). There's a bunch of other dogwhistles too but that seems to be the main one. I'd ask anyone who doesn't think they're saying that: just what the gently caress are they talking about? There's literally no substance if you can't hear the dogwhistles. & if you take it at face value, why say "not transohobic"?
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Aug 4, 2021 22:09
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I've only ever seen terfs default to "Sex based rights". They literally want to treat bearded, jacked up trans men like women on the basis of their chromosomes
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Aug 4, 2021 22:11
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Honestly I'd have more respect for them if they just said what they loving meant. If they're so loving sure they're right, what's the point in dancing round it. They're trying to make a statement that they're not ashamed of their beliefs, yet they can't even bring themselves to verbalise what they're apparently so unashamed of. Cunts.
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Aug 4, 2021 22:19
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Soylent Yellow posted:The container transport that blocked the Suez a few months back is being unloaded. Shouldn't there be a glut of sex arses? Can't be too careful
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Aug 4, 2021 22:22
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A lot of this terf language is very contextual, i.e. rampant dog whistles. It's of course entirely deliberate to seem reasonable for the respectable sensible set and make their critics look like they're angry at nothing. For example: "Women and girls are subject to discrimination and oppression on the basis of their sex." This looks fine if you've not been incredibly deep into the terf rabbithole. "On the basis of their sex" is the key phrase here, and particularly the word "sex". When they say "Sex" they mean a very specific idea that they repeatedly build up among themselves, that "sex" is a simple, binary thing, where everyone is marked with a Male or Female based on their chromosomes (and yes, intersex people are just ignored or shoved into one of the boxes) and this indelibly marks whether they experience Sex-Based Opression. And following on from that, trans women do not experience discrimination and oppression on the basis of their sex - anything they experience is not because they are women or perceived as women. Because their Sex isn't Female. As according to them the world is erasing sex as a concept by occasionally being nice to trans people (see all the "i'm being silenced" points about women being allowed to speak out), going out of your way to say "sex" shows that you are speaking truth to power and are signed up to the entire terf worldview. The continual use of "sex" combined with all the standard TERF wedge issues presented in one go ("female-only" spaces, sports, women being silenced for speaking out on women's issues) make it an incredibly clear signal. At least, clear for anyone who has paid the slightest attention to the Gender Wars, while making it subtle enough that the clueless and/or terminally centrist may view it as a reasonable center ground because it doesn't explicitly say what it's actually saying. Also the linked website includes links to a bunch of TERF groups like Transgender Trend, LGB Alliance etc so if anyone did the slightest digging before signing then they'd know exactly what kind of people they were supporting.
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Aug 4, 2021 22:24
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Skarsnik posted:Stock up on sex arses, gotcha They said non-essential
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Aug 4, 2021 22:25
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Soylent Yellow posted:a glut of sex arses? I guess now we know what the collective noun for those is. Can't beat that onomatopoeia
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Aug 4, 2021 22:26
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Soylent Yellow posted:Shouldn't there be a glut of sex arses? Angepain posted:A lot of this terf language is very contextual, i.e. rampant dog whistles. It's of course entirely deliberate to seem reasonable for the respectable sensible set and make their critics look like they're angry at nothing. 
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Aug 4, 2021 22:39
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Soylent Yellow posted:The container transport that blocked the Suez a few months back is being unloaded. Shouldn't there be a glut of sex arses? No that's going to barely fill the backorders and meanwhile the counterfeit sex arse black market is booming and those things are probably dangerous.
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Aug 4, 2021 22:41
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Jakabite posted:They said non-essential Don't judge me
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Aug 4, 2021 22:42
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Brendan Rodgers posted:No that's going to barely fill the back heh
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Aug 4, 2021 22:44
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Brendan Rodgers posted:No that's going to barely fill the backorders and meanwhile the counterfeit sex arse black market is booming and those things are probably dangerous. Counterfeit sex arse boiled my bell-end!
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Aug 4, 2021 22:46
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ahhhh dominic you rat, you didn't run a brexit to give us sovereignty!! you were using it to heat up my sex arse in the suez!! how could you give your nation the old spicy sex arse
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Aug 5, 2021 00:05
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Spicy sex arse would be a good name for a combination balti house and strip club.
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Aug 5, 2021 01:57
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The Question IRL posted:Okay. Goes into some heavy stuff, so fairly warned be thee, says I. Just wanted to say that I did see this, just wanted to take some time to think about whether I had anything useful to add in reply, but turns out I don't! I think you're largely right, it just didn't personally ruin the show for me.
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Aug 5, 2021 05:42
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Ash Crimson posted:I've only ever seen terfs default to "Sex based rights". Do they though? They tend to dodge questions about trans men. I would not be at all surprised if a significant number of them want to exclude both trans men and trans women from women’s spaces.
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Aug 5, 2021 07:11
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Soricidus posted:Do they though? They tend to dodge questions about trans men. I would not be at all surprised if a significant number of them want to exclude both trans men and trans women from women’s spaces. The main GC talking point I used to see about trans men was that they're just confused butch lesbians, which is not only patronising and disgusting but completely overlooks trans men who aren't straight. A butch woman I know had security called on her in a public bathroom recently, but I'm sure GCs will be able to make them safe places for trans men...
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Aug 5, 2021 08:02
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I think a lot of them just try not to think about that because it gets in the way of being outraged about thing that don't exist.
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Aug 5, 2021 08:04
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I just want to say thanks to this thread for giving me the talking points needed to destroy a friend's false assumption that being a trans female gives you any kind of physical advantage. I kind of guessed it was all bullshit, mostly based on the types of people loudly arguing this, but I didn't have the facts needed at hand.
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Aug 5, 2021 08:26
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They think that trans women being given more rights to make them equal means that rights are being taken away from them. The exact same people think the same thing about black people and Asians but now have to use their inside voice. Doc Stock has a doctorate in the philosophy of fiction and her course is the lowest rated by every single metric everyone who measures these things uses if you want a laugh.
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Aug 5, 2021 08:30
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learnincurve posted:They think that trans women being given more rights to make them equal means that rights are being taken away from them. Who was it said that when all you know is privilege, equality looks like oppression?
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Aug 5, 2021 09:14
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Jedit posted:Who was it said that when all you know is privilege, equality looks like oppression? Someone who was profoundly wrong, to the point where they should not be approvingly quotes by anyone who considers themself a leftist. Almost all people of all types are oppressed in o e way or another, those with unqualified privilege are a tiny minority. Declaring the oppression someone faces to be an illusion because other things also happens to other statistical groups is an advanced form of liberal fuckery. For the record, the quote seems to have no known attribution; it is certainly not the kind of thing either Malcom X or MLK would have said.
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Aug 5, 2021 09:35
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I think the point of the comment is that it is applied specifically, when all you have known in a particular situation is privilege, then equality looks like oppression. And people can absolutely have no understanding of specific forms of oppression because they have gone their entire lives without experiencing it. They may or may not be able to make the link to things they have experienced but many people do not do that for whatever reason, possibly because a lot of people are not actually encouraged to think that way and to react to anything they do not immediately and intuitively understand with scorn.
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Aug 5, 2021 09:37
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radmonger: I'm not sure which you understand less, the concept of privilege or the idea of perspective.
Dabir fucked around with this message at 09:46 on Aug 5, 2021 |
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Aug 5, 2021 09:38
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I think the past year has spectacularly proven that there's a group of people who confuse minor personal inconvenience with systemic oppression.
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Aug 5, 2021 09:42
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radmonger posted:Someone who was profoundly wrong, to the point where they should not be approvingly quotes by anyone who considers themself a leftist. Almost all people of all types are oppressed in o e way or another, those with unqualified privilege are a tiny minority. Declaring the oppression someone faces to be an illusion because other things also happens to other statistical groups is an advanced form of liberal fuckery. Feel free to elaborate and list the oppression faced by the upper middle class so I can break out my tiny violin
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Aug 5, 2021 09:49
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Guavanaut posted:I think the past year has spectacularly proven that there's a group of people who confuse minor personal inconvenience with systemic oppression. Lmaoing at the clearly bald guy with the bloatee bottom centre
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Aug 5, 2021 09:51
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Guavanaut posted:I think the past year has spectacularly proven that there's a group of people who confuse minor personal inconvenience with systemic oppression. My favorite is the guy at the bottom, who clearly does not.
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Aug 5, 2021 09:52
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Death
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Aug 5, 2021 09:52
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Greggs has chosen today, my birthday, to launch the vegan sausage bean and cheese melt. This can only be a good sign for the coming year.
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Aug 5, 2021 10:05
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sebzilla posted:Greggs has chosen today, my birthday, to launch the vegan sausage bean and cheese melt. This can only be a good sign for the coming year. Happy birthday, why would you tell me this, now I need to eat one, you suck, have a good day!
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Aug 5, 2021 10:15
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Happy birthday bean backside melt.
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Aug 5, 2021 10:16
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I also want to thank this thread for some excellent trans-learnings. It's unfair that this job should fall to our trans fellow-goons, and I totally get that many won't want to be exposed to the rampant transphobia that exists on the rest of the internet, even when it's being used as an example of what is bad. I hope warnings and spoiler-ings can ameliorate that a bit. With that in mind, warning, paraphrased transphobic ideas below. Re toilets, I get the feeling that in reality, they want one toilet for cis women that look sufficiently feminine, and another for cis men, trans women (who they think are men), trans men (who think they are men), and anyone who "looks like" they might be one of the above. But this is obviously at odds with the "beep boop binary" sex idea they claim to espouse, so as Owl says, it gets skirted around. Some useful stuff I happened to see today - a couple of links explaining why "sex based rights" are not a thing (in the UK) https://medium.com/@davidallsopp/sex-based-rights-are-contradictory-nonsense-e58d3bca7d3e https://rgellman.medium.com/there-is-no-such-thing-as-sex-based-rights-in-the-uk-140554a2c42c
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Aug 5, 2021 10:19
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sebzilla posted:Greggs has chosen today, my birthday, to launch the vegan sausage bean and cheese melt. This can only be a good sign for the coming year. The vegan sausage rolls are great but vegan cheese is giving me pause here
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Aug 5, 2021 10:35
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I generally look at it, possibly influenced by gay panic that it shares so much rhetoric with, as that they don't really have, or even care about, concrete policy suggestions for how we should establish the bathroom police to protect tru natal wymyn by doing gonad insepctions or whatever the gently caress. The real core if it is that they don't like the idea of trans-ness and they just look for any possible way they can attack trans people and destroy the idea so they don't have to think about it existing. Especially with the attacks on trans healthcare and their connection with attacks on reproductive healthcare, it really is easier I think to look at it as being very much about controlling people they think are lesser than them, be that trans people, LGB people, or women who don't conform to their ideas of what women should be (the class element and swerfy part of it is probably applicable here too). That really does seem like the consistent through line, they have a vision of the sort of person they might consider valid, and trans people, people who value their access to reproductive healthcare, sex workers, and I think when you get right down to it, poor people and people of colour just do not fit into that vision. And while they might understand that attacking many of those groups too openly is socially unacceptable, they still feel it, even if they don't actively identify that feeling in themselves, which is why they concentrate on things that hurt those people, phrased in language that makes them seem like they're doing everyone a favour, and often simply ignore anything that challenges that by reframing the conversation back into their preferred language. They know it feels good and right to hurt their targets, and they have an intellectual cover for that by phrasing it as defending women's rights, which makes them the good guys. They think they know what society should be like and who should be allowed to have a place in it. It is really not very different from any other conservative position except that the thing it holds itself up as defending is something slightly more modern.
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Aug 5, 2021 10:36
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sebzilla posted:Greggs has chosen today, my birthday, to launch the vegan sausage bean and cheese melt. This can only be a good sign for the coming year.  Do what thou wilt with the bean and cheese melt but try to stay out of the Sunday Sport.
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Aug 5, 2021 10:41
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