Final Fantasy Megathread: I, Jack, will knock you all down

The Something Awful Forums > Discussion > Video Games > Final Fantasy Megathread: I, Jack, will knock you all down

THE AWESOME GHOST: Oct 21, 2005

Mandoric posted:

As someone who absolutely drat melted when Eternal Wind (FF3) cued up in FF14, the idea of people hit that hard by Eternal Wind (FF14) playing in FF3 is... It's good, actually.

It really is where the series truly found its footing, and I'm glad English-speakers are finally starting to think of it in context rather than as a strange side story.

As much as the thread likes to dunk on Tanaka, and as much as he probably deserves it for borrowing exclusively the parts of WoW that had to be recontextualized in beta without borrowing the recontextualization, it's either "you can't plagiarize yourself" or a tribute to what the old boss did right.

That was exactly it, I got to the world map and went �oh man Shadowbringers was good�

I kinda knew pretty much everything in the FF14 crystal tower was a 3 reference down to the music but it is still surprising to keep running into them

# ? Aug 7, 2021 10:22

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# ? Jun 11, 2024 03:10

Barudak: May 7, 2007

Im dumb as hell, Operation Mi'hen is on purpose to kill and weaken the al bhed

# ? Aug 7, 2021 11:39

zedprime: Jun 9, 2007; yospos

Oxxidation posted:

mideel drives me batty. most of FF7's towns make a token effort to justify their presence and location in the larger world, but mideel is just there, on a near-inaccessible jungle island built about three-quarters of an inch above an active lifestream vein. it's where you'd expect to find a research outpost manned by three slightly-to-moderately insane geologists (biogeologists?), not a whole-rear end town

It's a hot spring resort. There's an allegory or something in there about the dangers of using geologic features as the basis for your resort. The better in universe question is if there's mako welling up why hasn't Shinra built a reactor yet but I think it's implied it's pretty small time until the weapons triggered an earthquake.

# ? Aug 7, 2021 12:07

That Fucking Sned: Oct 28, 2010

jokes posted:

Is FF15 the only FF to explain why the player is so much stronger than your average dumdum? Like there�s no reason for Lighting et al to be as strong as they are. The brand or whatever just let them cast magic, not make them super strong.

This could have easily been fixed in FFXIII just by not showing the characters doing superhuman things before becoming l�cie. You could keep Lighting and Sazh fighting the warmech but remove Snow falling a mile, crash landing, and punching a behemoth so hard it disintegrates (or just have that happen later).

It would have also been good to actually mention the crystarium in the story. For instance, as the crystarium grows and they become more powerful, a crystal starts growing out of their brand and it becomes harder for them to hide. That way you don�t need Snow accidentally showing his brand on live TV during the race because he�s too stupid to wrap some cloth around it. gently caress it, just delete Snow and his knock off Avalanche friends from the game.

# ? Aug 7, 2021 12:15

BisbyWorl: Jan 12, 2019; Knowledge is pain plus observation.

Barudak posted:

Im dumb as hell, Operation Mi'hen is on purpose to kill and weaken the al bhed

And to further justify Yevon's rule.

Don't want to send a never-ending line of summoners off to die? Why not try fighting Sin directl-oh wait you can't.

# ? Aug 7, 2021 12:26

Mega64: May 23, 2008; I took the octopath less travelered,

And it made one-eighth the difference.

I'd live in FF4's Dwarven Castle because those fuckers give no fucks, they just sit around, shout "Lali-ho!" and get drunk with no worries whatsoever. Sure there's no sun and you're surrounded by magma, but you know, I could deal.

jokes posted:

Is FF15 the only FF to explain why the player is so much stronger than your average dumdum? Like there�s no reason for Lighting et al to be as strong as they are. The brand or whatever just let them cast magic, not make them super strong. Vaan and co aren�t super strong in the plot. Tidus, Bender, and Drunk Old Man In His 30s aren�t given special fight powers. Maybe Yuna but even then she gets trounced by others constantly, even other summoners.

Terra's a big loving deal since she can naturally use magic and is able to communicate with espers due to her bloodline. Zidane's also special as mentioned earlier.

I'm sure FF1's WoL is special due to all the extra poo poo going on too but gently caress if I'm gonna puzzle all that out.

But yeah, most protags are just ordinary fuckers. Firion, FF3 protag, Bartz, and Vaan are just random people who get wrapped up in big-time poo poo. You've got experienced and/or specially-trained soldiers like Cecil, Squall, and Lightning as well, who may not be special in themselves but are certainly a step up from your random person, particularly in their comfort with their chosen weapons and their skillsets.

Cloud is somehow both an ordinary person and an experienced soldier without really being either. It's a miracle the guy is able to function as well as he does, really.

# ? Aug 7, 2021 12:57

Ethiser: Dec 31, 2011

You can probably assume that all the characters from the 3 and 5 get some sort of special crystal powers when they receive the different jobs.

# ? Aug 7, 2021 13:11

Inspector Gesicht: Oct 26, 2012; 500 Zeus a body.

How one would retool Junction into something less broken, less esoteric, and less boring with so many grey screens?

I wasn't fond of Materia either because it takes so much XP to level up the drat rocks. By the time you can think up any quirky strategies the game is already over. FF6's esper-system was better because it was fast to learn magic and the second half was all sandbox so you had plenty of opportunites to use your crazy combos.

# ? Aug 7, 2021 13:44

zedprime: Jun 9, 2007; yospos

Mega64 posted:

I'd live in FF4's Dwarven Castle because those fuckers give no fucks, they just sit around, shout "Lali-ho!" and get drunk with no worries whatsoever. Sure there's no sun and you're surrounded by magma, but you know, I could deal.

Deal? No sun and surrounded by magma is sounding optimal about now.

# ? Aug 7, 2021 13:45

zedprime: Jun 9, 2007; yospos

Inspector Gesicht posted:

How one would retool Junction into something less broken, less esoteric, and less boring with so many grey screens?

I wasn't fond of Materia either because it takes so much XP to level up the drat rocks. By the time you can think up any quirky strategies the game is already over. FF6's esper-system was better because it was fast to learn magic and the second half was all sandbox so you had plenty of opportunites to use your crazy combos.

Each time you draw a spell you power up that spell for junctioning. Limit to a certain amount of power ups and make it a once a battle or once a monster thing so you don't have to grind it out and you're also drawing magic for casting it's sake. Instead of every stat being a junction slot, you have a handful of junction slots and any one junction can apply to multiple stats possibly based on how powered up it is. Bam, something as tolerable as materia or FF9 skills that allow unique builds and is uniquely pokemon like.

# ? Aug 7, 2021 13:50

No Dignity: Oct 15, 2007

Inspector Gesicht posted:

How one would retool Junction into something less broken, less esoteric, and less boring with so many grey screens?

I wasn't fond of Materia either because it takes so much XP to level up the drat rocks. By the time you can think up any quirky strategies the game is already over. FF6's esper-system was better because it was fast to learn magic and the second half was all sandbox so you had plenty of opportunites to use your crazy combos.

You could make magic permanent equipment and not consumable, like materia you can junction. Then you could limit the party's access to good stuff, you couldn't be punished for actually casting it in combat and you could keep the stat boosts down to earth when they've balanced to a single point rather than a sliding scale of 1-100

# ? Aug 7, 2021 13:51

cock hero flux: Apr 17, 2011

Barudak posted:

Im dumb as hell, Operation Mi'hen is on purpose to kill and weaken the al bhed

the main goal was to crush the Crusaders as an independent organization while simultaneously demonstrating that they were wrong and the church was right, which it did quite well. the fact that it also happened to discredit the al bhed and get some of them killed was just a bonus. the guado might end up invading them but the church itself does not seem to care much about the al bhed one way or another.

# ? Aug 7, 2021 13:57

Cleretic: Feb 3, 2010; Ignore my posts!
I'm aggressively wrong about everything!

Inspector Gesicht posted:

How one would retool Junction into something less broken, less esoteric, and less boring with so many grey screens?

I wasn't fond of Materia either because it takes so much XP to level up the drat rocks. By the time you can think up any quirky strategies the game is already over. FF6's esper-system was better because it was fast to learn magic and the second half was all sandbox so you had plenty of opportunites to use your crazy combos.

The challenge with 'fixing the Junction system' is figuring out exactly what part is broken, as opposed to 'being abused by people who hate having fun'. Like, I don't think there's a form of that system that won't be obliteratable by someone willing to spend hours eating trading cards. But I do think it's possible to make it work without outright encouraging people to go 'empty grindfest'.

From my perspective, the things you have to do...
1. Don't make junctionable spells an expendable resource. This whole dynamic basically ruins FFVIII's gameplay, because it means doing interesting things is punished. Perhaps divide the possible spells into two groups: 'junctionable' spells that are infinite in use and are just powered up by drawing and are typically not that interesting or powerful (your basic elemental and healing spells), and 'rare' spells that can't get junctioned but are much stronger to use (Quake, Haste, Triple, etc). Maybe throw some status spells in the 'rare' category so we have the excuse to make them stronger.
2. Decide a point somewhere in the last two discs where we're okay with poo poo getting wild, and really make sure that none of the spells you can reliably get before that (including through refining items) are the big-ticket ones for stats. We'll have to accept that there will be a 'Merged World in FFV' point where people can really start angling for some wild poo poo, and make sure that very little of that wild poo poo is available before then.
3. Give Card Mod to, like, Cactaur instead of Quetzacoatl. Early access to Card Mod is what really creates that 'grind junctions like mad for the start of the game' angle that gives the Junction system such a bad rap; I'm okay with having it there, but it needs to be WELL out of the way so that people know it's not how you're supposed to do it.
4. Swap Diabolos and Doomtrain. While not as guilty as Card Mod, Enc-Half and Enc-None are a huge aid to the outlook of 'you should never level at all ever'; it shouldn't be early-game, or even easy to get. Meanwhile Doomtrain is mostly neat status effect and convenience stuff that's nice to have but not a dealbreaker, which is perfect for 'optional early-game boss reward'.

# ? Aug 7, 2021 14:29

Sakurazuka: Jan 24, 2004; NANI?

Get rid of card mod altogether so people have to play it like I did

# ? Aug 7, 2021 15:02

Mega64: May 23, 2008; I took the octopath less travelered,

And it made one-eighth the difference.

Add Card Mod to all games imo

Finally Tetra Master has a loving purpose.

# ? Aug 7, 2021 15:13

THE AWESOME GHOST: Oct 21, 2005

The other day I got on my friend�s fresh FF8 file and got him to do like one hit kills in the first 30 minutes and basically felt like I beat the game

Didn�t even start card modding, it was getting early Water from Fish fins, shiva refining and str junctions

# ? Aug 7, 2021 16:06

wafflemoose: Apr 10, 2009

FF8 is an awful game with stupid mechanics and dumb characters. Soundtrack is bangin' though.

Even the leveling system is dumb. Why do the enemies level up with you? Isn't the point of leveling up in an RPG is to get stronger? Stupid game.

# ? Aug 7, 2021 16:34

16-bit Butt-Head: Dec 25, 2014

wafflemoose posted:

FF8 is an awful game with stupid mechanics and dumb characters. Soundtrack is bangin' though.

Even the leveling system is dumb. Why do the enemies level up with you? Isn't the point of leveling up in an RPG is to get stronger? Stupid game.

its good actually

# ? Aug 7, 2021 17:19

Vikar Jerome: Nov 26, 2013; I believe Emmanuelle is shit, though Emmanuelle 2, Emmanuelle '77 and Goodbye, Emmanuelle may be very good movies.

Meloncholric posted:

its good actually

i concur

# ? Aug 7, 2021 17:23

That Fucking Sned: Oct 28, 2010

I�d just limit the number of spells you can junction to your character�s level. That would give you some reason to play the game like a normal Final Fantasy.

It just sounds boring to do some really long and tedious grind at the start of the game so you can spend the rest of it playing it like a visual novel. But so many people complain if you try and make that impossible. I�ve seen people complain that you can�t grind in FFVIIR and it just broke my brain to see people want to do that in a modern game.

# ? Aug 7, 2021 17:27

WaltherFeng: May 15, 2013; 50 thousand people used to live here. Now, it's the Mushroom Kingdom.

Voluntarily grinding in rpgs is very much a real thing

# ? Aug 7, 2021 17:36

Sakurazuka: Jan 24, 2004; NANI?

That guy who ground Cloud and Barret up to lvl 99 in the starting reactor.

# ? Aug 7, 2021 17:39

MMF Freeway: Sep 15, 2010; Later!

Cleretic posted:

The challenge with 'fixing the Junction system' is figuring out exactly what part is broken, as opposed to 'being abused by people who hate having fun'. Like, I don't think there's a form of that system that won't be obliteratable by someone willing to spend hours eating trading cards. But I do think it's possible to make it work without outright encouraging people to go 'empty grindfest'.

From my perspective, the things you have to do...
1. Don't make junctionable spells an expendable resource. This whole dynamic basically ruins FFVIII's gameplay, because it means doing interesting things is punished. Perhaps divide the possible spells into two groups: 'junctionable' spells that are infinite in use and are just powered up by drawing and are typically not that interesting or powerful (your basic elemental and healing spells), and 'rare' spells that can't get junctioned but are much stronger to use (Quake, Haste, Triple, etc). Maybe throw some status spells in the 'rare' category so we have the excuse to make them stronger.
2. Decide a point somewhere in the last two discs where we're okay with poo poo getting wild, and really make sure that none of the spells you can reliably get before that (including through refining items) are the big-ticket ones for stats. We'll have to accept that there will be a 'Merged World in FFV' point where people can really start angling for some wild poo poo, and make sure that very little of that wild poo poo is available before then.
3. Give Card Mod to, like, Cactaur instead of Quetzacoatl. Early access to Card Mod is what really creates that 'grind junctions like mad for the start of the game' angle that gives the Junction system such a bad rap; I'm okay with having it there, but it needs to be WELL out of the way so that people know it's not how you're supposed to do it.
4. Swap Diabolos and Doomtrain. While not as guilty as Card Mod, Enc-Half and Enc-None are a huge aid to the outlook of 'you should never level at all ever'; it shouldn't be early-game, or even easy to get. Meanwhile Doomtrain is mostly neat status effect and convenience stuff that's nice to have but not a dealbreaker, which is perfect for 'optional early-game boss reward'.

I would never want to lose the ability to get enc-none early and turn the game into boss rush mode. That's one of those broken in a fun way things, imo

# ? Aug 7, 2021 17:42

Zil: Jun 4, 2011; Satanically Summoned Citrus

Sakurazuka posted:

That guy who ground Cloud and Barret up to lvl 99 in the starting reactor.

That sounds like hell.

# ? Aug 7, 2021 17:42

16-bit Butt-Head: Dec 25, 2014

Sakurazuka posted:

That guy who ground Cloud and Barret up to lvl 99 in the starting reactor.

legend.

# ? Aug 7, 2021 17:45

stev: Jan 22, 2013; Please be excited.

Sakurazuka posted:

That guy who ground Cloud and Barret up to lvl 99 in the starting reactor.

https://youtu.be/jDsPAmy826Q

Pity this poor fucker.

# ? Aug 7, 2021 17:46

Mega64: May 23, 2008; I took the octopath less travelered,

And it made one-eighth the difference.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MBfnQcFNCp4

# ? Aug 7, 2021 17:48

Cleretic: Feb 3, 2010; Ignore my posts!
I'm aggressively wrong about everything!

WaltherFeng posted:

Voluntarily grinding in rpgs is very much a real thing

And everyone making a JRPG should be discouraging that, at least to the level where it becomes 'clearly not the intended way to go'. If you want to grind, sure, but it has to be accepted as 'not the intended way to play'.

I genuinely think FFVIII's design was trying to do this, that's why the real progression in power compared to the game world is tied to other things you can do while actually leveling up also scales your opponents. They just... you know. Did it bad.

# ? Aug 7, 2021 17:49

Pablo Nergigante: Apr 16, 2002

I like FF8

# ? Aug 7, 2021 17:50

Barudak: May 7, 2007

FFX is a significantly better game with random battles off so

# ? Aug 7, 2021 17:51

Zil: Jun 4, 2011; Satanically Summoned Citrus

stev posted:

https://youtu.be/jDsPAmy826Q

Pity this poor fucker.

He sounded so sad at the end there.

# ? Aug 7, 2021 17:52

HD DAD: Jan 13, 2010; Generic white guy.; Toilet Rascal

FF8 is a top-tier FF, and it gives zero shits about how bonkers it is.

# ? Aug 7, 2021 17:52

16-bit Butt-Head: Dec 25, 2014

Pablo Nergigante posted:

I like FF8

# ? Aug 7, 2021 17:55

WaltherFeng: May 15, 2013; 50 thousand people used to live here. Now, it's the Mushroom Kingdom.

Cleretic posted:

And everyone making a JRPG should be discouraging that, at least to the level where it becomes 'clearly not the intended way to go'. If you want to grind, sure, but it has to be accepted as 'not the intended way to play'.

I genuinely think FFVIII's design was trying to do this, that's why the real progression in power compared to the game world is tied to other things you can do while actually leveling up also scales your opponents. They just... you know. Did it bad.

Mandatory grinding hasn't been an issue in rpgs for several decades by now, excluding postgame content. Not sure why it needs to be discouraged.

# ? Aug 7, 2021 18:35

Harrow: Jun 30, 2012

ZenMasterBullshit posted:

Dream Zanarkand is a bit of a misnomer because it was both a physically real place you could just take a boat to (If you could avoid Sin) and also the people there were entirely real to the point they had not just lives and families but also souls that on death made it to the farplane. It's more Fayth Zanarkand than Dream.

Yeah this is something I actually didn't pick up on until I replayed the game years later. I'd always assumed it was sort of an alternate/pocket dimension, but no, it's a gigantic summon out in the middle of the ocean. A person could physically reach it from Spira, at least before the Fayth stopped summoning it.

# ? Aug 7, 2021 18:43

HD DAD: Jan 13, 2010; Generic white guy.; Toilet Rascal

Harrow posted:

Yeah this is something I actually didn't pick up on until I replayed the game years later. I'd always assumed it was sort of an alternate/pocket dimension, but no, it's a gigantic summon out in the middle of the ocean. A person could physically reach it from Spira, at least before the Fayth stopped summoning it.

I really wish there was slightly more lore surrounding this. It�d be neat as hell if there were a few NPC references to like, Al-Bhed scouting ships seeing a small glow of the horizon, but never being able to reach it due to Sin.

# ? Aug 7, 2021 18:50

Barudak: May 7, 2007

HD DAD posted:

I really wish there was slightly more lore surrounding this. It�d be neat as hell if there were a few NPC references to like, Al-Bhed scouting ships seeing a small glow of the horizon, but never being able to reach it due to Sin.

I could have sworn its mentioned that Sin patrols certain waters but that may be ultimania or something bleeding into my head.

# ? Aug 7, 2021 18:51

Attitude Indicator: Apr 3, 2009

Harrow posted:

Yeah this is something I actually didn't pick up on until I replayed the game years later. I'd always assumed it was sort of an alternate/pocket dimension, but no, it's a gigantic summon out in the middle of the ocean. A person could physically reach it from Spira, at least before the Fayth stopped summoning it.

I don�t think this is actually stated in the game in any way? Also it would make more sense for it to actually be a pocket dimension or something.

# ? Aug 7, 2021 18:54

Harrow: Jun 30, 2012

Attitude Indicator posted:

I don�t think this is actually stated in the game in any way? Also it would make more sense for it to actually be a pocket dimension or something.

I don't know if it's stated outright but it's heavily implied and confirmed in the out-of-game material. It's how Jecht gets to Spira and how Auron goes back and forth. "Dream" Zanarkand is a real, physical location, out in the sea. It's near Baaj Temple, which is why that's where Tidus first shows up after Sin carries him to Spira.

Edit: the Jecht part is honestly pretty comical. Dude really did just get super drunk and sail out into nowhere and stumble on Spira

Harrow fucked around with this message at 18:59 on Aug 7, 2021

# ? Aug 7, 2021 18:56

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# ? Jun 11, 2024 03:10

ZenMasterBullshit: Nov 2, 2011; Restaurant de Nouvelles "À Table" Proudly Presents:
A Climactic Encounter Ending on 1 Negate and a Dream

Yeah you're told Jecht went on a fishing trip alone and never came back early on, so it's implied he just went out far beyond Sin's Patrol.

# ? Aug 7, 2021 18:59

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