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Charles posted:Feel free to ask questions here! In addition to the YouTube channels mentioned, Bjorn Nyland is pretty objective and has good objective tests for range, etc (but the videos are geared toward people who sort of already know some things I'd say, might be hard to just jump in). Well in that case I'll start with the biggest issue, I live in Montréal, and while we will have a garage, it's still gonna get cold. Also hot. But at least the electricity is dirt cheap and clean. Do any of the models have different strategies for handing extreme temperatures that would influence what I buy? Or is leasing going to be the saner option while there's still a lot of churn in the tech advancement, and not much desire to buy used EV batteries?
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Aug 8, 2021 23:21
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NZAmoeba posted:Well in that case I'll start with the biggest issue, I live in Montréal, and while we will have a garage, it's still gonna get cold. Also hot. But at least the electricity is dirt cheap and clean. Do any of the models have different strategies for handing extreme temperatures that would influence what I buy? Leasing can be a good idea for EVs, but it depends on the deal you get. In a cold environment you want a car with a heat pump, and also you should keep it plugged in and aset up so it uses grid power to heat the battery before you drive off. What's your commute like? Budget? What do you need a car to do? You're going to need to work backwards from there.
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Aug 8, 2021 23:31
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NZAmoeba posted:…Also hot. But at least the electricity is dirt cheap and clean. Do any of the models have different strategies for handing extreme temperatures that would influence what I buy? *laughs in south Floridaese* Even Leaf now has liquid battery cooling, so literally anything you buy new will just take care of itself whenever it’s plugged in. Don’t overthink it.
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Aug 8, 2021 23:41
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The Leaf still does not have liquid cooling. Which is one of the reasons it might be a better idea to lease rather than buy.
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Aug 9, 2021 00:01
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A Leafe, if you will
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Aug 9, 2021 01:01
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dissss posted:The Leaf still does not have liquid cooling. Which is one of the reasons it might be a better idea to lease rather than buy. I swore the current-Gen leaf was liquid cooled. My mistake.
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Aug 9, 2021 01:09
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pun pundit posted:A Leafe, if you will 
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Aug 9, 2021 01:51
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dissss posted:The Leaf still does not have liquid cooling. Which is one of the reasons it might be a better idea to lease rather than buy. Friggin Leaf, what the hell. The longer I own this car the less I like it.
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Aug 9, 2021 01:52
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Leaves open their stomata for cooling. 
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Aug 9, 2021 02:00
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NZAmoeba posted:Well in that case I'll start with the biggest issue, I live in Montréal, and while we will have a garage, it's still gonna get cold. Also hot. But at least the electricity is dirt cheap and clean. Do any of the models have different strategies for handing extreme temperatures that would influence what I buy? Rejoice! EVs are awesome in the cold and you have a garage you can presumably park and charge in. So not only do the heaters start blowing heat more or less instantly (no need to wait for the engine block to warm up first), but you can also remotely start and precondition them even in an attached closed garage and not kill everyone in the house with carbon monoxide poisoning. Also yes get a model with a heat pump (most current generation EVs have one so it shouldn't be hard). Do avoid the Nissan Leaf until they finally switch to liquid cooling for the battery which is the primary thing that scared me away from them and into to a Tesla Model 3 instead. Keep in mind that all EVs have a significant range reduction in winter, a heat pump works miracles but ultimately you can expect the range in winter to be 70% of the summer range at best. So if you need a vehicle to go 300 KM at any time in the year and any weather, get one with at least 500 KM of rated range.
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Aug 9, 2021 02:52
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Also, keep your coat on in the car and use the seat heaters as much as possible. Reason being, heating up the whole inside of the car takes a lot of energy, and that's energy you could use to make the car go. Like, and this is true where I live too, moving to an EV makes you a lot more conscious about what takes energy. I don't recall ever caring much about wind before. I certainly never thought about the outside temperature. But I may have if the gas car gave me as much information about fuel use as the electric car does about battery use.
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Aug 9, 2021 03:07
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One thing I always wonder whenever the winter range loss is discussed, is what effect cold weather has on ice cars? My understanding is that a big factor in the decreased range is the density of the air which would impact an ice as much as a ev. But I don’t ever recall anyone worrying that winter was going to reduce the range of their ice car. Is it just that we have range anxiety about EVs but don’t ever think about it for ices? Mind you, I’m in Sydney, so a cold day is 15 degrees C. That may be why I never hear about it!
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Aug 9, 2021 03:23
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Beffer posted:One thing I always wonder whenever the winter range loss is discussed, is what effect cold weather has on ice cars? My understanding is that a big factor in the decreased range is the density of the air which would impact an ice as much as a ev. But I don’t ever recall anyone worrying that winter was going to reduce the range of their ice car. I think part of it is that gas engines produce heat as a byproduct of inefficiency. Like, heat is the main waste product created. Lots and lots of heat. So cold weather is sort of not an issue, since the engine heats itself up under any circumstance. You can even blow some of that waste heat into the cabin to keep the occupants warm. In an electric, you aren't really generating excess heat, so you have to use additional energy if you want to make some. So you feel it a lot more. In addition, the batteries don't perform as well in cold temperatures, so a full charge doesn't deliver as many joules. Conversely, we were getting astounding range when it was 118° in the shade. Please note that this is idle speculation that someone smart will hopefully correct if I'm off the mark.
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Aug 9, 2021 03:38
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I seemed to get way worse mileage with my Subaru in the winter but don't know if that's from the tires and winter formulation of gas. But part of it I think cruft is right, ice vehicles are inefficient and are generating all that heat all the time.
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Aug 9, 2021 03:52
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I found this site that has info from 2014 comparing ev's and ice's range hits at different temperatures: Looks like gas cars lose most energy just getting the engine up to temp, and EVs lose the most getting the cabin and battery heated.
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Aug 9, 2021 04:14
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MrYenko posted:*laughs in south Floridaese* Really? That was the plan but it didn't happen. Since the 2018 model was released, Nissan released the LEAF Plus, another model with a 60 kWh battery and a range of over 200 miles. ... There's still non-liquid cooled 40 and 60 kWh battery packs I believe the sale of a battery factory fell thru so Nissan is stuck with air cooled batteries on the leaf.
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Aug 9, 2021 04:32
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cruft posted:Conversely, we were getting astounding range when it was 118° in the shade. This would be strange since extreme heat also has a negative effect on EV range due to the extra energy required to keep the cabin cool and the batteries in a safe temperature range. The optimal temperature for EV range is around 70 degrees and the further you go in either direction the worse it will get.
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Aug 9, 2021 05:02
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YOLOsubmarine posted:This would be strange since extreme heat also has a negative effect on EV range due to the extra energy required to keep the cabin cool and the batteries in a safe temperature range. The optimal temperature for EV range is around 70 degrees and the further you go in either direction the worse it will get. I'm basing this off what the nav computer was predicting: we beat its predictions every time, which we'd never done before. In the past, it didn't take ambient temperature into account, and I just assumed hotter=more efficient. But it's possible that a recent update changed how it predicts, too. I guess we rely on that nav computer a whole lot.
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Aug 9, 2021 13:14
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cruft posted:I'm basing this off what the nav computer was predicting: we beat its predictions every time, which we'd never done before. In the past, it didn't take ambient temperature into account, and I just assumed hotter=more efficient. But it's possible that a recent update changed how it predicts, too. The chart posted above says air density counts for -6% in winter. Drag is obviously a bigger factor at high speed so if you're travelling at highway speeds on a scorching but dry day at some altitude I bet the effect can be quite big. Drag is quadratic so if cabin cooling requirements are linear, hotter would mean better range.
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Aug 9, 2021 13:27
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I don't know what's going on with used car prices but it looks like I can sell my 2020 Model 3 privately and get a 2021 Model 3 with the heat pump and all that jazz while only taking a 2k hit on depreciation thanks to the federal incentive. The power liftgate and other improvements are fine but that heat pump would be really nice for Canadian fall/winters. Normally I would never entertain selling a 1 year old car but this situation is pretty unique and kind of nuts. The only thing that might stop me is that it's a pain in the rear end to sell a car privately up here.
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Aug 9, 2021 19:13
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It's probably the 4+ month waiting time, and ever-increasing prices new Model 3's have had for a while. Your 2020 Model 3 might be worth tiny bit more since it has radar, and lumbar support. Edit: And your car also has the "Low" regen setting available still.
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Aug 9, 2021 19:20
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The Gunslinger posted:I don't know what's going on with used car prices but it looks like I can sell my 2020 Model 3 privately and get a 2021 Model 3 with the heat pump and all that jazz while only taking a 2k hit on depreciation thanks to the federal incentive. The power liftgate and other improvements are fine but that heat pump would be really nice for Canadian fall/winters. Normally I would never entertain selling a 1 year old car but this situation is pretty unique and kind of nuts. The only thing that might stop me is that it's a pain in the rear end to sell a car privately up here. If Tesla still qualified for even a partial US federal credit, I’d be in the process of trading my 2018 for a new one right now. Used car prices are broken.
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Aug 9, 2021 19:23
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The Gunslinger posted:I don't know what's going on with used car prices but it looks like I can sell my 2020 Model 3 privately and get a 2021 Model 3 with the heat pump and all that jazz while only taking a 2k hit on depreciation thanks to the federal incentive. The power liftgate and other improvements are fine but that heat pump would be really nice for Canadian fall/winters. Normally I would never entertain selling a 1 year old car but this situation is pretty unique and kind of nuts. The only thing that might stop me is that it's a pain in the rear end to sell a car privately up here. Unfortunately, new Tesla purchases in the US no longer qualify for our federal incentive, and that helping push me to get a Polestar 2 instead. What's the Canadian incentive look like?
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Aug 9, 2021 19:31
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QuarkJets posted:Unfortunately, new Tesla purchases in the US no longer qualify for our federal incentive, and that helping push me to get a Polestar 2 instead. What's the Canadian incentive look like? It depends on your province but everyone can get a $5000 federal incentive on vehicles with a base MSRP under a certain price, I think it's 45k which the SR+ technically qualifies under. I got it last year but apparently you can get the incentive again as long as you wait 12 months. Some provinces have other supplemental incentives on top of that but not mine. It's just taken off the price of the car after taxes, no tax return stuff necessary. If the wait time is that long and I order one, supply situation improves and I can't resell it at what I thought then I would eat a bigger depreciation hit too. Anyways regardless I won't bother since it feels wrong upgrading a car like some people upgrade phones but I was just sort of marveling at the oddity of the situation.
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Aug 9, 2021 19:38
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The Polestar 2 looks amazing. I finally got to see one in person last week, and it's surprising to see one where I live since the nearest dealer to me is 750 miles away in Detroit. What is it with EV owners and their vanity plates? 
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Aug 9, 2021 19:42
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The funniest poo poo was tesla "selling" a sub 100 mile range model 3 just to fall under the 45k for the canadian incentives. Not sure if it's still like that, but the conversion rate seems like it still would be. I'm sure they're not the only ones playing that game
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Aug 9, 2021 19:49
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Nfcknblvbl posted:What is it with EV owners and their vanity plates? Mine says "JRK*WAD" 
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Aug 9, 2021 19:52
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cruft posted:Mine says "JRK*WAD" Considered "KSHGGI" for a minute or two.
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Aug 9, 2021 19:53
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cruft posted:Mine says "JRK*WAD" You make Doom WADs?
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Aug 9, 2021 19:54
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Ola posted:The chart posted above says air density counts for -6% in winter. Drag is obviously a bigger factor at high speed so if you're travelling at highway speeds on a scorching but dry day at some altitude I bet the effect can be quite big. Drag is quadratic so if cabin cooling requirements are linear, hotter would mean better range. There’s some information based on real world usage data here. https://www.geotab.com/blog/ev-range/  AAA also did a study on energy consumption at different temperatures with HVAC on and off. This was done with a dyno, so no air resistance. https://www.aaa.com/AAA/common/AAR/files/AAA-Electric-Vehicle-Range-Testing-Report.pdf 
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Aug 9, 2021 20:58
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Clearly we need to send Tesla Bjørn to Bolivia to get more data.
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Aug 9, 2021 21:31
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I need some help collecting my options. - I live in Richmond, Virginia. Hot as hell in the summer, winters mostly in the 30s and 40s. - My commute is short, ~20 miles per day, but - I do semi-regular jaunts to northern Virginia, ~230 round trip. - I'm not picky about style - sedan, suv, hatchback, whatever. I have to fit a growing kid in the backseat. - I can charge at home. - Budget is 30s to low 40s. What I've been considering: - Nissan Leaf Plus - Hyundai Kona - it's not for sale in VA, which I'm ok with as long as it can be serviced somewhere local; I haven't found the answer to this yet. - Hyunday Ioniq - same - Tesla 3 - this is pushing the outside edge of what I can afford but quality-wise I feel like it's several steps above everything else. The stories around spotty quality spook me a bit. I'm sure I'm leaving a bunch of alternatives out, what am I missing? cruft posted:Friggin Leaf, what the hell.
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Aug 9, 2021 23:13
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jackpot posted:
VW ID.4 and Chevy Bolt? Ford Mach-E might be pushing your budget but would probably be my top choice right now personally (I say that not having test driven one though). I had an ID.4 on reservation but ended up buying a cheaper gas car when buying a house turned out to be more expensive than I was expecting.
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Aug 9, 2021 23:21
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jackpot posted:Why? Please bear in mind this is a 2017 Leaf.
For what it's worth I've owned 2 Teslas and I personally feel the stories around spotty quality, while probably true, are probably not as widespread as news outlets want you to think. Mine have been fine. My daughter likes the Model 3 a lot and can't wait until the Hatchback comes out so she can drop a full year of college tuition on being able to drive more than an hour before charging. (Suffice to say we're probably stuck with this Leaf for a while.) cruft fucked around with this message at 23:26 on Aug 9, 2021 |
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Aug 9, 2021 23:22
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jackpot posted:I'm sure I'm leaving a bunch of alternatives out, what am I missing? Also the Kia Niro. At the upper end of your budget but its 239 mi range hits your round trip distance better than its Hyundai cousin.
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Aug 9, 2021 23:30
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I'm leaning towards getting a used plug-in hybrid prius. It seems like the most economical choice I can make right now. I don't need a car to drive to work, but I do need to make shortish weekend trips that are usually out of range of the typical EV. The fact that it is a hatchback is a plus. And its lame exterior gives off the vibes of "hey, there goes a guy who doesn't give a poo poo about cars!" which is also a plus. Are there any better choices in PHEVs? Any "watch out for 2016 models, they have bad batteries and give you herpes"-style caveats I should know about?
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Aug 9, 2021 23:54
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darnon posted:Also the Kia Niro. At the upper end of your budget but its 239 mi range hits your round trip distance better than its Hyundai cousin. The Kona has a bit more range (both stated and real world) at the expense of being a smaller car.
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Aug 10, 2021 00:05
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jackpot posted:
Wild that in my part of the world the SR+ Model 3 would be almost the cheapest car on that list (the base Ioniq is a couple of thousand cheaper)
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Aug 10, 2021 00:10
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I think we're losing the Ioniq sedan in the U.S., unless they decide to rename it with a number, but the brand rep said it was going away.
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Aug 10, 2021 00:13
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it's kinda wild that a car thats "coming fall 2021" still doesn't have a msrp
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Aug 10, 2021 00:27
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