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the_steve posted:Possibly some sort of smokescreen. I mean, "We won't take your case, but we encourage you to pursue it elsewhere" can pretty quickly and easily be boiled down to "The 'official' group for this refused to take her case. Really makes you think... But that's speculation and my bias of believing that Time's Up is more of a poorly run and compromised mess than a well-run Venus fly trap for accusations.
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Aug 8, 2021 17:21
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Weird how they just incompetently advised Cuomo on how to burnish his PR and discredit his victims, gosh so weird how 'poorly run' they are that they just accidentally did that
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Aug 8, 2021 17:23
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Isn't a central point of the critique of institutional misogyny that you don't have to be doing it intentionally? Like yes you've got poo poo like blizz/activision being run by frat bro stereotypes but you can still end up with a culture that effectively shuts out victims of violence through a thousand little biases at every step, whether or not it is "incompetently run" seems academic if it is still serving to monopolise and curate what is an "acceptable" person to accuse. In either case the structure and leadership of the organization is unfit for the purposes of the people who go to it for help.
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Aug 8, 2021 17:36
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Given the timing of the accusations during the primaries, it's quite possible that orders came down from on high that suddenly Biden had to be sainted rather than an also-ran and the story went from supported to quashed with extreme prejudice.
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Aug 8, 2021 17:46
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Helping Cuomo seems pretty damning, honestly. I can't see that as any kind of structural factor of US society.
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Aug 8, 2021 17:53
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VitalSigns posted:Weird how they just incompetently advised Cuomo on how to burnish his PR and discredit his victims, gosh so weird how 'poorly run' they are that they just accidentally did that It sure seems like any time anyone creates a charity, NGO or centralized organization from a grassroots movement it's a deliberate effort to scam people or appropriate the movement into helping the powerful. grassroots efforts can go horribly awry, too, but I can't blame people for their cynicism.
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Aug 8, 2021 19:34
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Cranappleberry posted:It sure seems like any time anyone creates a charity, NGO or centralized organization from a grassroots movement it's a deliberate effort to scam people or appropriate the movement into helping the powerful. That's an inbuilt ruling class defense mechanism. Movements need ruling class endorsements and patronage for legitimacy, but in the process of attracting and incorporating members of the ruling class, the movement also incorporates their class interests. Time's Up is exactly that for the wider MeToo movement.
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Aug 8, 2021 19:48
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Metoo was kind of doomed the moment it was reduced to entertainment media coverage of celebrities. Reportage neutralized a lot of its potential by turning it into human-interest content involving actresses and stories about how famous women have gone through things their audience have endured, rather than keeping attention on how and why sexual violence persists.
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Aug 8, 2021 20:00
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fool of sound posted:That's an inbuilt ruling class defense mechanism. Movements need ruling class endorsements and patronage for legitimacy, but in the process of attracting and incorporating members of the ruling class, the movement also incorporates their class interests. Time's Up is exactly that for the wider MeToo movement. quote:Ms. Burke said that she had never had extensive dealings with Mr. Cuomo but felt for other advocates who had. “A lot of people don’t realize how much our work is at the mercy of these men,” she said, adding, “If I have the ear of the lawmaker who can make change, I’m going to align with this person.”
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Aug 8, 2021 20:10
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Antifa Turkeesian posted:Metoo was kind of doomed the moment it was reduced to entertainment media coverage of celebrities. Reportage neutralized a lot of its potential by turning it into human-interest content involving actresses and stories about how famous women have gone through things their audience have endured, rather than keeping attention on how and why sexual violence persists. While I don't really agree with the "metoo is doomed / dead" position, this is probably the best argument I've heard for it actually having taken a significant hit as a movement. It also doesn't really require a conspiracy, which is more troubling than if it did. Extended discussion of rape culture is upsetting, takes more effort, and gets fewer clicks. That said, I certainly feel anecdotally like there is more discussion of the wider metoo issues than there was before. Both in media and the general population.
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Aug 8, 2021 21:20
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GreyjoyBastard posted:While I don't really agree with the "metoo is doomed / dead" position, this is probably the best argument I've heard for it actually having taken a significant hit as a movement. It also doesn't really require a conspiracy, which is more troubling than if it did. Extended discussion of rape culture is upsetting, takes more effort, and gets fewer clicks. Unfortunately it seems like it primarily goes one of two ways: - It happened to someone who knew someone who knew someone else. So many layers of separation that it becomes some abstract concept. - It happened to a famous person, in which case the actual issue is overshadowed by the famous person themselves or it's treated like some isolated incident the same way as when a cop decides to shoot a black kid. "Oh, well obviously it's bad that this guy did that. We'll deal with him, but I'll be damned if we're going to pull the lens back any to examine the system that lets this keep happening over and over and over."
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Aug 8, 2021 22:26
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Ghost Leviathan posted:Given the timing of the accusations during the primaries, it's quite possible that orders came down from on high that suddenly Biden had to be sainted rather than an also-ran and the story went from supported to quashed with extreme prejudice. Yeah within like days of Obama putting his thumb on the scale and Joe Biden suddenly becoming a treasured saint of healing and love it was all-hands-on-deck to scrub #metoo from the public consciousness, along with driving home "HIM OR TRUMP, HIM OR TRUMP" to get around the whole "has spent his entire political career being an utter monster" issue. It was as impressive as it was utterly irredeemable and vile. Cranappleberry posted:It sure seems like any time anyone creates a charity, NGO or centralized organization from a grassroots movement it's a deliberate effort to scam people or appropriate the movement into helping the powerful. Coopting is a huge problem for basically any attempt at organizational change in the U.S. Protests will have random people nobody's seen before show up with megaphones and claim to speak for everyone, while demanding everyone be extra-nice to cops and don't trouble our betters. More organized groups will have careerists weasel their way into leadership positions and immediately set to watering down anything that isn't ruling-class-friendly. It's a favored tactic of the ruling class because it's hard to do anything about it pre-emptively without descending into paranoia. Of course there's other methods, such a media smears/blackouts and just outright police brutality. For being such incredibly ineffective rulers they have a ton of ways to make sure nothing gets done. And if all that isn't enough, there's the final issue: If the ruling-class assault is either ineffective or successfully repelled then uh people just start mysteriously turning up dead. e: That's why "Organize!" tends to ring hollow to a lot of people Yinlock fucked around with this message at 00:14 on Aug 9, 2021 |
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Aug 9, 2021 00:06
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the_steve posted:Unfortunately it seems like it primarily goes one of two ways: Almost very single one of us has either been attacked/harassed, knows someone in our close circle who has been, or--let's be frank--has been complicit or active in harassment or assault. When you think of things like COVID or 9/11 in New York where everyone has their story of how it impacted them, that is how people should internalize sexual violence. It is an epidemic that is fueled by a lot of negative mindsets. One is that it is something shameful that shouldn't be discussed. That's the whole impetuous of Burke's movement, her realizing she lived in a society where as an educator she felt she couldn't tell children she was raped and how awful and backwards that is. Timeless Appeal fucked around with this message at 01:26 on Aug 9, 2021 |
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Aug 9, 2021 01:22
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Yinlock posted:
I'm not trying to criticize organizing so stay with me here. Commiserating, having support and a common purpose that you are willing to fight for is good but it's fraught with difficulties. Intra-group issues can also turn people off. I bring it up because in the case of celebrities or wealthy, their influence positions them in a hierarchical position of power within a group. So the group can easily become about them and be used as another vehicle with which to exercise their will, as mentioned. The same is true of local groups becoming personality cults or exploited by a particular individual or in-group. That's just one issue. Even with decentralized groups and movements there are about a million problems that can arise from internal dynamics, not even getting into outside issues or pressures. It's a wonder humans can work together at all.
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Aug 9, 2021 02:25
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Cranappleberry posted:I'm not trying to criticize organizing so stay with me here. Commiserating, having support and a common purpose that you are willing to fight for is good but it's fraught with difficulties. Intra-group issues can also turn people off. Oh sorry I wasn't accusing you or anything, just elaborating on why everything seems to turn into a lovely grift It actually takes quite a lot of work to stop humans from working together, years of manpower and trillions of dollars have been burnt to that end
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Aug 9, 2021 02:30
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Yinlock posted:Oh sorry I wasn't accusing you or anything, just elaborating on why everything seems to turn into a lovely grift I didn't think you were, I was just trying to be clear that I'm not critical of organization but people might be skeptical or critical because of their experiences with it.
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Aug 9, 2021 03:21
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Roberta Kaplan resigned from Times Up https://twitter.com/freedlander/status/1424736947847770113 Would have been nice if she was ran out publicly, as this just seems like house cleaning.
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Aug 9, 2021 15:22
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Today, on a group call, director of the call says "We need to take into account intellectual boundaries. There are times and places to discuss politics. It's not appropriate do it here because it makes people uncomfortable and it frequently escalates especially because of how contentious it is with people considering any disagreement as personal criticism..." There was more but you get the point. Then a response: "I probably shouldn't say this but I love Cuomo..."
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Aug 9, 2021 16:19
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Cranappleberry posted:Then a response: "I probably shouldn't say this but I love Cuomo..." Just a pure unrestricted "I am going to shoot myself in the foot" statement delivered in defense of a monster. What on Gods green earth was this person thinking?
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Aug 9, 2021 16:43
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I hope they got shitcanned for it but I am not optimistic.
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Aug 9, 2021 16:45
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Heck Yes! Loam! posted:Roberta Kaplan resigned from Times Up Timeless Appeal fucked around with this message at 18:13 on Aug 9, 2021 |
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Aug 9, 2021 17:18
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Heck Yes! Loam! posted:Roberta Kaplan resigned from Times Up Indescribably dark that one of the official me-too related organizations was used as a shield for Cuomo. this taints the whole drat thing, doesn't it?
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Aug 9, 2021 19:25
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I mean it taints the concept of "official" organizations for decentralized social trends.
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Aug 9, 2021 19:30
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OwlFancier posted:I mean it taints the concept of "official" organizations for decentralized social trends. True, but for survivors and victims, I can only imagine how dispiriting it can be to see an institution that was meant to support and fund legal cases against prominent abusers be instantly corrupted and warped.
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Aug 9, 2021 19:37
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Famethrowa posted:True, but for survivors and victims, I can only imagine how dispiriting it can be to see an institution that was meant to support and fund legal cases against prominent abusers be instantly corrupted and warped. It sounds like it was meant to protect abusers with legal defense and PR fig leaves while professing to support victims. That's textbook evil, and would be cartoon villainy if it didn't actually exist.
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Aug 9, 2021 19:45
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Famethrowa posted:Indescribably dark that one of the official me-too related organizations was used as a shield for Cuomo. this taints the whole drat thing, doesn't it? It would be except, they already acted as a catch and kill op for Biden's assaults it's not even surprising any more
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Aug 9, 2021 19:59
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Famethrowa posted:True, but for survivors and victims, I can only imagine how dispiriting it can be to see an institution that was meant to support and fund legal cases against prominent abusers be instantly corrupted and warped. Like I get your point and it is disheartening, but when we write obituaries for MeToo I think we're doing more harm than good even if it's coming from a place of justifiable frustration. And as stated, the idea of the official organization is a very flawed one.
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Aug 9, 2021 20:00
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It makes sense for people to want for there to be some good guys that can sort it out within the system, but when the problem is the entire system, they are going to keep being disappointing until people get sick of them too. Like, orgs springing up to capture, monetise, and co-opt people's pain is itself a symptom of the system that hurts them to begin with. It just means the battle is more wide reaching than it might initially have seemed. Which sucks poo poo yeah but the need for victory is still there.
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Aug 9, 2021 20:04
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Josef bugman posted:Just a pure unrestricted "I am going to shoot myself in the foot" statement delivered in defense of a monster. What on Gods green earth was this person thinking? "Doubling the gently caress down on an indefensible position" is a proud American tradition, see Biden's approval rating despite being a proven monster for an easy example e: People just don't like being wrong, even if they have to go against reality itself to maintain their illusion. That person probably bought into the Cuomo hype at one point and is now just loyal until death because to do otherwise would be admitting an error in judgement. Yinlock fucked around with this message at 20:43 on Aug 9, 2021 |
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Aug 9, 2021 20:08
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Heck Yes! Loam! posted:Roberta Kaplan resigned from Times Up bitter lol at this: quote:The involvement of Mr. David, who previously served as counsel to the governor, has led to calls for his resignation from the Human Rights Campaign. The organization said in a statement on Monday that it had hired a law firm to investigate whether Mr. David’s work on the op-ed aligned with its mission of “fighting for equality and justice for all.” Let me save you the time & lawyer bills, HRC; smearing Cuomo's assault victims is not aligned with that mission! eta: This is just revolting: quote:They also vowed that the organization would make itself more accountable and transparent to the community it sought to represent, though the statement did not provide details. 
Willa Rogers fucked around with this message at 22:08 on Aug 9, 2021 |
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Aug 9, 2021 22:06
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These people have no shame:quote:Asked by The New York Times if she had ever counseled Ms. DeRosa beyond the op-ed letter, Ms. Kaplan declined to answer. Wah-wah, our gravy train has come to an end bc we're rank hypocrites, wah-wah! Also, SISTERHOOD!
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Aug 9, 2021 22:10
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Willa Rogers posted:
The terf strategy.
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Aug 9, 2021 22:33
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Referring to what I posted this morning- realize the warning could also be used to shutdown talk about inequality, union organization and salary discussion. Technically not legal to outright shut it down but the implication is there.Josef bugman posted:Just a pure unrestricted "I am going to shoot myself in the foot" statement delivered in defense of a monster. What on Gods green earth was this person thinking? OwlFancier posted:I hope they got shitcanned for it but I am not optimistic. Yeah, they mentioned "he is done" but failed to say why, however, their tone was disappointed (not necessarily at Cuomo). They then mentioned they felt disagreement with their politics felt personally hurtful. I don't think they were deliberately trying to push the issue. I DO think they were trying to contribute their experience about how they could understand that people would be made to feel uncomfortable by political discussion but did so because... Yinlock posted:"Doubling the gently caress down on an indefensible position" is a proud American tradition, see Biden's approval rating despite being a proven monster for an easy example Willa Rogers posted:These people have no shame: Sedisp posted:The terf strategy. It's such nonsense politician/manager speak. No remorse, not even excuses. Everyone else has to adapt to them. How about "we hosed up real bad. We're not actually sorry, though. We don't really know how to help, we only know how to cynically use these issues to create organizations that protect our class and enrich ourselves at the expense of others."
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Aug 9, 2021 22:34
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Virginia Roberts Giuffre filed a civil suit against Prince Andrew in NY today:quote:Giuffre, who is seeking unspecified damages for battery and infliction of emotional distress, said the embattled blueblood abused her at least three times while she was 17. (Fortunately, she's being represented by David Boies in her lawsuit instead of that Time's Up monster.)
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Aug 10, 2021 00:55
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https://twitter.com/TheAVClub/status/1424902207472734208?s=19 In news that will surprise literally nobody... Though I am...not sure of the right word, amused feels wrong...about them using the "We can't be pedos because we always joked about and marketed ourselves as pedos!" defense.
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Aug 10, 2021 02:28
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Considering we're seeing such a prominent organisation be a blatant op to protect abusers while claiming to fight them, is it becoming more clear now why the starry-eyed claims of 'Just organise and vote!' come off so bitterly insensitive? We've seen this happen over and over and over to any remotely progressive cause, where if the leaders don't end up committing suicide via bullet to the back of the head they end up 'asking for perspective' as to why they're doing the literal opposite of their intended cause. Also comes to mind the people genuinely trying to call out Cori Bush for hiring private security.
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Aug 10, 2021 03:06
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I don’t know if there’s a meaningful distinction between being an op and being a band of ideological opportunists who genuinely believe it’s an adult, big-brain pragmatic choice to protect politicians they think are positioned to help their cause and who view the whole thing as career boosting and who think that everyone sees everything as career-boosting. See that quote upthread about how a bunch of people saw Cuomo as the way to get their progressive agenda through the legislature regardless of what he was like as a person. Surely we’ll see some of these people on the board of the Clinton Foundation or the dnc at some point, because to them caring about causes is part of how you play the game.
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Aug 10, 2021 03:14
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Ghost Leviathan posted:Considering we're seeing such a prominent organisation be a blatant op to protect abusers while claiming to fight them, is it becoming more clear now why the starry-eyed claims of 'Just organise and vote!' come off so bitterly insensitive? We've seen this happen over and over and over to any remotely progressive cause, where if the leaders don't end up committing suicide via bullet to the back of the head they end up 'asking for perspective' as to why they're doing the literal opposite of their intended cause. In the 1980's, the establishment not-so-secretly hoped that AIDS would annihilate homosexuals and set policy accordingly, which has resulted in the surviving activists from that era still having a noticeable fire in them that others do not carry. Meanwhile, the top levels of the government caused and profited from the international cocaine trade in order to fund all-out assaults on left-wing governments across the planet, and followed that with drug laws so draconian that a for-profit prison system now cannot physically sustain the incarceration rate. Most people consider the above to be conspiracy theories and don't really have any ability to contemplate the lives ruined and lost because of these events. It's all absolutely crazy and the fight will never be over in our lifetimes or our children's lifetimes. I get that you're in large part responding to US News posts and the like, but Cori Bush is still a congresswoman, so ask her why she isn't convinced that organizing and voting means nothing. People arguing for organizing and voting are about as impressed with what reads like a rousing call to inaction.
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Aug 10, 2021 04:13
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the_steve posted:https://twitter.com/TheAVClub/status/1424902207472734208?s=19 Ahhhh, the Louis C.K. defense. TBH, I never paid much attention to their lyrics/them as people. But I always thought they were a terrible band, even since I was a kid and loved anything heavy. Glad I predicted their lovely-ness from their music alone. Kalit fucked around with this message at 04:53 on Aug 10, 2021 |
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Aug 10, 2021 04:50
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Kalit posted:Glad I predicted their lovely-ness from their music alone. I don't mean to pick on you specifically, but this kind of post hoc "guess I was right!  " really bugs me. part of "me too" is that most predators hide in plain sight, and most are successful predators by being really charming and sliding through life. doing this little dance when someone who was shady and weird gets caught only seems to obfuscate the real predators sliding on through.
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Aug 10, 2021 05:38
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