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Rohan Kishibe posted:I've heard similar sentiments from people about artists before and every single person I know who draws themselves all say it's all practice. It's kind of offensive to imply that someone's skill is just a natural gift and not something they've put real effort and mental focus into actively improving. av+text combo
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Aug 10, 2021 20:39
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mycomancy posted:That's because it allows people to look at the culmination of decades of work and say, "welp, they're clearly gifted, guess I could never be that good since Im not gonna even try to get good guess I'll go masturbate and play video games." This has to be a big part of the mindset, reminds me of the common video game insult of "tryhard". It's like, yeah I tried harder than you, and I won because of it, and you're the one who's mad about it while I'm having fun so I'd say my hard-trying paid off.
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Aug 10, 2021 20:51
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Maybe that guy has a point, he keeps posting and none of those reps have made his posts any better
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Aug 10, 2021 20:57
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shirts and skins posted:Maybe that guy has a point, he keeps posting and none of those reps have made his posts any better
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Aug 10, 2021 20:58
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Who bought Brad Bird an account?
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Aug 10, 2021 21:06
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honestly i'm just mad that y'all are letting this guy derail a Good Thread
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Aug 10, 2021 21:12
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Twibbit posted:Who bought Brad Bird an account? ?
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Aug 10, 2021 21:17
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Rohan Kishibe posted:I've heard similar sentiments from people about artists before and every single person I know who draws themselves all say it's all practice. It's kind of offensive to imply that someone's skill is just a natural gift and not something they've put real effort and mental focus into actively improving. I do feel there are things you can improve with practice, and there are things in art which are to a degree talent. You can certainly train technical skill - see the K6BD from 8 years ago compared to today. Massive technical improvement. I would argue that the leap in Schlock Mercenary is even more stark. At least Abbadon looks like he could draw at the start. Day 1 Schlock Mercenary was literal globby MSPaint art. But I suspect that not everyone who trains the same can have the same degree of creativity. There are some very technically accomplished artists who can reproduce the work of a grand master perfectly but will never be able to produce an original product of similar quality.
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Aug 10, 2021 21:25
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Some people think Brad Bird, director of Iron Giant, the Incredibles and Ratatouille, is a secret objectivist obsessed with telling stories about how the Ubermenschen are shackled by society. It's a reach.
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Aug 10, 2021 21:27
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and here i was wondering why my training regimen of "smoke grass eat rear end" hadn't improved my ability to draw one bit
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Aug 10, 2021 21:39
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Z the IVth posted:I do feel there are things you can improve with practice, and there are things in art which are to a degree talent. I think creativity is a skill just like any other - some may start with a better talent for it, and some may get better faster with practice than others, but you can practice creativity. But because "creativity" is a fairly nebulous concept, a lot of people don't really think of it that way, but it can be honed through practice and diligence.
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Aug 10, 2021 21:55
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I don't think the ability to be artistic is limited to those with 'talent'. At the same time, I don't think that it's necessarily that someone is just 'a harder worker' either, since I think that just takes a too simplistic view of however humans work (not that I know anything about that one way or the other). I don't know exactly what makes someone feel or be successful or not, and if I did, I probably wouldn't be continuing this derail. Abaddon to me seems a very hard worker, who also quite enjoys being able to do what they like and make money off it, and are very fortunate to have the life they have lived. thechosenone fucked around with this message at 22:07 on Aug 10, 2021 |
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Aug 10, 2021 22:03
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CodfishCartographer posted:I think creativity is a skill just like any other - some may start with a better talent for it, and some may get better faster with practice than others, but you can practice creativity. But because "creativity" is a fairly nebulous concept, a lot of people don't really think of it that way, but it can be honed through practice and diligence. I've been painting for most of my life (minis mainly) and while I've noticed my technical skills getting better with practice, my actual development of technique is distinctly not as good. Some people can instinctively get where to splodge their paint to get something which looks good, but unless I've seen it done before/been taught it, I've very rarely developed said insight on my own. Once I've figured something out I can certainly iterate on it but I have difficulty making poo poo up out of whole cloth.
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Aug 10, 2021 22:17
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Flesnolk posted:For what it's worth I doubt the ending he has in mind is Jagganoth successfully killing everyone in the multiverse. But then, no one in this thread, myself included, is capable of this kind of creation and we probably shouldn't pretend to be by speculating. It must be nice to have been born with talent. On top of what everyone else has said, I'm not sure I would really even call K6BD a remarkable act of *creation* per se. It wears its influences on its sleeve, and it is more defined by the execution of well trodden paths from other works (Morrowind and its attendant influences which is to say <all of Hindu myth>) than by the ideas being remarkably fresh or whatever. It's gorgeous, and it tells its story well, but what the story has to say so far and the themes aren't exactly ground breaking poo poo. It also still has yet to fully articulate a thesis in response to the Problem of Power it has been dancing with all this time so there's still time to completely drop the ball.
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Aug 10, 2021 22:49
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Z the IVth posted:I've been painting for most of my life (minis mainly) and while I've noticed my technical skills getting better with practice, my actual development of technique is distinctly not as good. Some people can instinctively get where to splodge their paint to get something which looks good, but unless I've seen it done before/been taught it, I've very rarely developed said insight on my own. I don't think the argument is that practice in isolation is the path to skill. It's that if you're committed to doing the work - which includes learning from others - you'll get better, and that for most pursuits natural inclination is a smaller factor than willingness and access to do this work.
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Aug 10, 2021 23:21
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Captain Oblivious posted:It also still has yet to fully articulate a thesis in response to the Problem of Power it has been dancing with all this time so there's still time to completely drop the ball. The prophecised "Kill Six Billion Demons" actually just refers to an app that Alison hires someone to make, it puts people in touch with registered demon-slayers.
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Aug 10, 2021 23:55
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Practicing isnt enough, what you practice matters. Most talented folks just started practicing the useful and relevant skills young, often inna way that isn't immediately obvious, and most folks who practice a lot but never seem to improve are practicing the wrong thing (sometimes literally training themselves to do things wrong!) This is especially true in art, where good artists generally start practicing well before they turn five and may well have spent more time doing creative freehand art just in math classes alone than an aspiring latecomer does during an entire undergrad degree in art at a college. And even for artists that start at a similar age and spend a similar amount of time doing art, the ones that spend that time stretching themselves are the ones who will see gains. What a lot of people mistake for talent is really just enthusiasm, and the associated willingness to and attitude towards practice. GlyphGryph fucked around with this message at 00:02 on Aug 11, 2021 |
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Aug 10, 2021 23:59
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Otherkinsey Scale posted:The prophecised "Kill Six Billion Demons" actually just refers to an app that Alison hires someone to make, it puts people in touch with registered demon-slayers. And then...Clevin.
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Aug 11, 2021 00:06
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Perfect practice makes perfect. You have to know what you know, what you don't, what you want to work on, and how to work on it well. If you've got that sorted, then practice can work wonders. If you don't, it can feel like scaling a sheer, wet cliff face.
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Aug 11, 2021 00:13
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Flesnolk posted:Posting on a forum isn't a skill. Any worthless nobody can do that. And yet you're still dogshit at it
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Aug 11, 2021 00:50
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Z the IVth posted:I've been painting for most of my life (minis mainly) and while I've noticed my technical skills getting better with practice, my actual development of technique is distinctly not as good. Some people can instinctively get where to splodge their paint to get something which looks good, but unless I've seen it done before/been taught it, I've very rarely developed said insight on my own. Honestly I would say easily 99% of artists don't develop new techniques without outside help or guidance. Maybe that outside help is them looking up youtube tutorials or whatever but I imagine it must be extraordinarily rare for artists to learn everything just via their own trial and error. Will some artists discover techniques on their own? Yeah, of course, but I don't think that's the case for most of an artist's skill. "Creativity" itself is kind of a weird concept. I would easily call K6BD an extremely creative work of art - and yet as pointed out, much of it is iterative of other work. Every major influential work is in some way inspired by what came before it - "Creativity" is really just a matter of being able to notice what ideas can work well together and having the skills to do so. Hell, there's the famous quote of "a good artist borrows, a great artist steals" - creativity is knowing what to steal and when.
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Aug 11, 2021 02:28
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All work is iterative to a degree because an enormous part of communication is based on shared understanding. The art is in combining concepts in novel ways.
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Aug 11, 2021 03:02
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CodfishCartographer posted:Honestly I would say easily 99% of artists don't develop new techniques without outside help or guidance. Maybe that outside help is them looking up youtube tutorials or whatever but I imagine it must be extraordinarily rare for artists to learn everything just via their own trial and error. Will some artists discover techniques on their own? Yeah, of course, but I don't think that's the case for most of an artist's skill. I think this is true for the most part but also because creative output is extremely inconsistent for most people, it's very easy to lean from yourself in the same way, when you do something that looks better than what you were doing before. My opinion is that 'natural talent' in art is generally that 'talented' people are capable of analyzing their own work to see what they like about it, whereas people who rely entirely on tutorials/formal education are people who either don't analyze their own work or are incapable of viewing it in a way that doesn't reduce it to a binary good/bad state. Under this approach, talent mostly just comes down to how you view your own art, which imo can be changed pretty easily if you're consciously trying  But there's also a decent amount of people in their 30s+ who have barely/never drawn before who learn they can do realism art to a bizarrely accurate degree, I'm not sure how those people figure in to any talk about talent but my theory is that since it's mostly older people they've just coincidentally had a life that made them capable of viewing objects in a non-symbolic way. Regardless, those fuckers mostly just paint landscapes/portraits and don't draw comic books.
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Aug 11, 2021 03:59
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CodfishCartographer posted:Honestly I would say easily 99% of artists don't develop new techniques without outside help or guidance. Every single halfway decent artist does this, though? Sure, there's plenty of skills they probably won't develop this way, and most will seek out some guidance because it helps, but the vast majority of improvement in your own technique will absolutely come from observation and trial and error and retrospection and analysis and stuff like that. Outside help and guidance in art, in my experience, is more about pointing you in specific directions for experimentation rather than about actually developing your skills directly. There's a lot of "okay here are the tools, this is what I want you to learn, now go figure it out".
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Aug 11, 2021 04:12
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Coming in to post that it's impossible to be good at something unless you're born that way, and pointing to an article as evidence, and having that article clearly disagree with your thesis, but doubling down on it anyway when that's pointed out, is honestly so loving funny to me. I'm going to be thinking about this all week.
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Aug 11, 2021 04:14
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Maybe you're born with it, maybe it's Royalty
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Aug 11, 2021 04:18
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Big zag, but I think part of why some people may think they are more creative In altered states of consciousness is because they are too high at the time to overanalyze what they are trying to do. I think similarly children can have an easier time doing things if they have little to no reference level for what is good or bad, and also may overthink things less. This is all just conjecture of course, but it feels right to me. It's alot about mindset.
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Aug 11, 2021 05:06
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SlimGoodbody posted:Coming in to post that it's impossible to be good at something unless you're born that way, and pointing to an article as evidence, and having that article clearly disagree with your thesis, but doubling down on it anyway when that's pointed out, is honestly so loving funny to me. I'm going to be thinking about this all week. There's definitely a study out there that proves them right, I mean just look at Olympians! They famously never practice and just wake up in whatever city every four years and decide to give the luge a whirl and win gold on a whim!
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Aug 11, 2021 05:09
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Also I think some people really underestimate the amount of practice people put in. I used to draw one thing a week, spending maybe like 5 hours on each drawing. I doodled a bit in the margins of my class notes, whatever. I felt that was pretty good! But I was always worse than my friends, who were constantly drawing and filling entire sketchbooks with just doodles done in their free time. They would put out multiple drawings a week that they spent like 10 hours on. They drew way, way, way more than me and corrspeondingly were better and got better faster. I think when some people hear practice they think it's the kind of futzing about I was doing, you know an hour here or there every week. Not the involved and time consuming practice my friends were doing where it's hours a day every day. I think temperament does have something to do with whether you're willing to put up with that kind of practice though.
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Aug 11, 2021 07:27
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Having a talent is great for starting out but if you don't put in the time to nurture it it won't take you far. Its one of the reasons many people don't like to hear how "talented" they are when they're dedicating a lot of time to whatever it is what they do. They worked for it. Acknowledge this.
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Aug 11, 2021 07:30
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GlyphGryph posted:Every single halfway decent artist does this, though? Sure, there's plenty of skills they probably won't develop this way, and most will seek out some guidance because it helps, but the vast majority of improvement in your own technique will absolutely come from observation and trial and error and retrospection and analysis and stuff like that. Outside help and guidance in art, in my experience, is more about pointing you in specific directions for experimentation rather than about actually developing your skills directly. There's a lot of "okay here are the tools, this is what I want you to learn, now go figure it out". Tbh I think we mostly agree except for semantics, I see your example as requiring outside help, since there's someone to push an artist in the right direction - it doesn't come purely from within.
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Aug 11, 2021 08:23
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"Talent" is having gotten started so young you didn't immediately get embarrassed by how bad you are and immediately abandon it because of that.
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Aug 11, 2021 09:23
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CodfishCartographer posted:Tbh I think we mostly agree except for semantics, I see your example as requiring outside help, since there's someone to push an artist in the right direction - it doesn't come purely from within. Yeah but I can't think of many artists that require it, and a lot of the progress they'll make happens without it - if anything, the primary benefit from most guidance is to convince you not to use the techniques you already developed on your own and instead try something new instead of sticking with what "works". Similar to sports, most athletes will readily develop effective techniques for overcoming new physical challenges, and thats actually part of what makes coaching difficult - you often have to train them out of the stuff they figured out on their own. It's similar in art. There are certain things where guidance is invaluable (figuring out how to use the tools other people have made to make your life easier is often not very intuitive or discoverable), but when your average artist comes across a novel situation they will readily develop new techniques to tackle it, by necessity (but there are too many artists who stop at that point instead of refining and experimenting)
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Aug 11, 2021 15:18
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shirts and skins posted:Maybe that guy has a point, he keeps posting and none of those reps have made his posts any better lol
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Aug 11, 2021 15:25
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One of the contributors to the recent War for Ryuba, Tyson Elmer, has a patreon now: https://www.patreon.com/TysonElmer/ https://twitter.com/Tyson_Elmer Check it out, his stuff is pretty rad and it's good to support small creators. https://twitter.com/Tyson_Elmer/status/1417506229786595328 https://twitter.com/Tyson_Elmer/status/1354353899642085379
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Aug 11, 2021 17:48
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 Is Mario from Super Mario Odyssey a devilskin warrior? Discuss.
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Aug 12, 2021 18:02
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He is merely a demon wearing a man's body and puppeting it
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Aug 12, 2021 21:52
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The player is the demon puppeting the plumber, always has been
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Aug 12, 2021 22:12
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IMJack posted:The player is the demon puppeting the plumber, always has been This is literally true in Dwarf Fortress Adventurer mode
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Aug 12, 2021 22:30
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IMJack posted:The player is the demon puppeting the plumber, always has been Yes, but how does Cappy factor into this
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Aug 13, 2021 02:55
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