The Energy Generation Megathread: Heated Exchanges

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Pander: Oct 9, 2007; Fear is the glue that holds society together. It's what makes people suppress their worst impulses. Fear is power.

And at the end of fear, oblivion.

Kaal posted:

It's not a bad idea per se

No, it's a pretty bad idea, regardless of what se thinks.

# ? Aug 13, 2021 19:59

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# ? May 9, 2024 08:32

mobby_6kl: Aug 9, 2009; by Fluffdaddy

Let's just hook up carriers and ice breakers to the grid. Or build a bigger plants on the decks of older carriers!

Phanatic posted:

Pretty sure you mean 'global carbon emissions from the power sector.'

Right, 75% from power sector, 20% of total as I mentioned later. I'll edit to make it clearer

Heck Yes! Loam! posted:

Its a crime that we aren't replacing these with nuclear.

Yeah for all the talk about meeting the climate targets... there are your low-hanging fruits. 20% sounds like would get us there or pretty close.

I had in mind some sort of UN Power agency that would just go around and replace old coal plants with standardized nuclear plants, free of charge for the recipient. Politically though it would be suicidal, I'm pretty sure, but I'd much rather go in that direction than deal with $5 carbon offsets on my flights and other nonsense.

# ? Aug 13, 2021 20:30

Saukkis: May 16, 2003; Unless I'm on the inside curve pointing straight at oncoming traffic the high beams stay on and I laugh at your puny protest flashes.
I am Most Important Man. Most Important Man in the World.

mobby_6kl posted:

New report just dropped (a week ago). Apparently 5% of power plants generate 75% of global (power generation) carbon emissions. They also probably generate a huge chunk of total electricity too since they're all huge coal plants, but still seems like pretty good news if we could replace them with renewables or nukes (lol). According to them this should be enough to cut total global emissions by 20% which seems absolutely massive.

https://arstechnica.com/science/2021/08/most-of-the-power-sectors-emissions-come-from-a-small-minority-of-plants/

If this really checks out, imo we should finance their decommissioning and replacement asap. This has to be a much better ROI than planting trees and what not.

The article and report doesn't make it clear if these plants are excessively inefficient or just unusually large coal plants. The report talks about the intensity, but it's relative to other fossil fuel plants and coal plants probably are more intensive compared to oil and natural gas plants. But if the top-10 are just operating at the average coal plant efficiency, then it doesn't really matter whether you decommission one of them or 10 smaller coal plants, except for the people living nearby who have to deal with most of the non-CO2 emissions.

Or it might be better to decommission smaller plants.It's probably more efficient to transport to coal to one huge plant than ten smaller ones. And if we some day come up with an effective CCS system, then these huge plants are the prime candidates for deploying it, as mentioned at the end of the article. If these huge plants are less efficient than average for some reason, maybe they have outdated boiler and generators, then they should be easier to upgrade than smaller. You can only renovate small portion of the plant while the rest keep operating, instead of shutting down the whole of smaller plant for a year.

# ? Aug 13, 2021 20:52

Capt.Whorebags: Jan 10, 2005

Saukkis posted:

The article and report doesn't make it clear if these plants are excessively inefficient or just unusually large coal plants. The report talks about the intensity, but it's relative to other fossil fuel plants and coal plants probably are more intensive compared to oil and natural gas plants. But if the top-10 are just operating at the average coal plant efficiency, then it doesn't really matter whether you decommission one of them or 10 smaller coal plants, except for the people living nearby who have to deal with most of the non-CO2 emissions.

Or it might be better to decommission smaller plants.It's probably more efficient to transport to coal to one huge plant than ten smaller ones. And if we some day come up with an effective CCS system, then these huge plants are the prime candidates for deploying it, as mentioned at the end of the article. If these huge plants are less efficient than average for some reason, maybe they have outdated boiler and generators, then they should be easier to upgrade than smaller. You can only renovate small portion of the plant while the rest keep operating, instead of shutting down the whole of smaller plant for a year.

It may be easier to solve the regulatory, NIMBY, project management, waste storage, grid tie etc for one big nuclear plant than for ten smaller ones. Ideally you could build nuke next to the existing coal plant and sell it as �we�re going to replace this dirty smog machine with this shiny new nuclear plant� and the locals would accept it, plus the grid infrastructure is already there as well as cooling water supply.

Except for the issue of replacing perhaps 1000s of jobs with fewer higher skilled jobs.

# ? Aug 14, 2021 00:15

Infinite Karma: Oct 23, 2004; Good as dead

Coal is a minuscule amount of jobs, they're just extremely loud, and in small states to boot. Either way, solar has a shitload of jobs that honestly need very little training, and even better, solar is needed all over the place so it's not geographically limited like mining jobs are.

Nuclear doesn't need to also be a jobs program on top of everything else.

# ? Aug 14, 2021 00:34

Gucci Loafers: May 20, 2006; Ask yourself, do you really want to talk to pair of really nice gaudy shoes?

mobby_6kl posted:

New report just dropped (a week ago). Apparently 5% of power plants generate 75% of global (power generation) carbon emissions. They also probably generate a huge chunk of total electricity too since they're all huge coal plants, but still seems like pretty good news if we could replace them with renewables or nukes (lol). According to them this should be enough to cut total global emissions by 20% which seems absolutely massive.
code:
Table 2. Top ten polluting power plants in 2018 and 2009.a

2018
Plant name      Country  Tons of CO2   Fuel    Age   MW     Relative Intensity
1 Belchatow     Poland   37,600,000    Coal    27    5298    1.756
2 Vindhyachal   India    33,877,953    Coal    14    4760    1.485
3 Dangjin       S. Korea 33,500,000    Coal    10    6115    1.473
4 Taean         S. Korea 31,400,000    Coal    12    6100    1.481
5 Taichung      Taiwan   29,900,000    Coal    22    5834    1.282
6 Tuoketuo      China    29,460,000    Coal    10    6720    1.450
7 Niederaussem  Germany  27,200,000    Coal    38    3826    1.451
8 Sasan Umpp    India    27,198,628    Coal     3    3960    1.401
9 Yonghungdo    S. Korea 27,000,000    Coal     9    5080    1.481
10 Hekinan      Japan    26,640,000    Coal    21    4100    1.394
https://arstechnica.com/science/2021/08/most-of-the-power-sectors-emissions-come-from-a-small-minority-of-plants/

If this really checks out, imo we should finance their decommissioning and replacement asap. This has to be a much better ROI than planting trees and what not.

Coal is really bad. Awfully bad. And doesn't even stop with carbon emissions. People have been trying to ban it for literal centuries.

https://twitter.com/emilygrubert/status/1424056595714093065?s=20

# ? Aug 14, 2021 00:45

mobby_6kl: Aug 9, 2009; by Fluffdaddy

Yep there aren't many jobs all things considered but you can see the amount of stink the Poles raised over the Turow coal mine: https://eulawlive.com/insight-the-t...trajan-shipley/

Saukkis posted:

The article and report doesn't make it clear if these plants are excessively inefficient or just unusually large coal plants. The report talks about the intensity, but it's relative to other fossil fuel plants and coal plants probably are more intensive compared to oil and natural gas plants. But if the top-10 are just operating at the average coal plant efficiency, then it doesn't really matter whether you decommission one of them or 10 smaller coal plants, except for the people living nearby who have to deal with most of the non-CO2 emissions.

Or it might be better to decommission smaller plants.It's probably more efficient to transport to coal to one huge plant than ten smaller ones. And if we some day come up with an effective CCS system, then these huge plants are the prime candidates for deploying it, as mentioned at the end of the article. If these huge plants are less efficient than average for some reason, maybe they have outdated boiler and generators, then they should be easier to upgrade than smaller. You can only renovate small portion of the plant while the rest keep operating, instead of shutting down the whole of smaller plant for a year.

The intensity is definitely vs all other fossil plants so I'm not sure if these are particularly bad in terms of efficiency, I suspect they're just the largest in absolute amount. So you're probably right and it might be even better to close a bunch of smaller, less efficient plants. But it feels like it should be easier to sell it as replacing 1:1 the single largest polluting plant.

Although as the Turow situation shows, people will get mad either way.

# ? Aug 14, 2021 00:52

Capt.Whorebags: Jan 10, 2005

Infinite Karma posted:

Coal is a minuscule amount of jobs, they're just extremely loud, and in small states to boot. Either way, solar has a shitload of jobs that honestly need very little training, and even better, solar is needed all over the place so it's not geographically limited like mining jobs are.

Nuclear doesn't need to also be a jobs program on top of everything else.

I�m in furious agreement with you but I�m cognisant of the resistance that will be pushed.

Here in Australia there is constant talk about mining jobs being under threat from green programs, you would think that every second person was employed in mining. The reality is that mining is a small part of our employment figures and the majors have been throwing every dollar into automation, from extraction all the way through to loading the ships. Rio Tinto runs entire mining operations from control rooms in Perth with a handful of staff yet billionaires have been very successful in convincing communities that resource taxes will destroy their livelihoods.

# ? Aug 14, 2021 01:03

suck my woke dick: Oct 10, 2012; I CANNOT EJACULATE WITHOUT SEEING NATIVE AMERICANS BRUTALISED!

Put this cum-loving slave on ignore immediately!

just pay everyone employed in coal a lump sum of 10 year's salary the day their company gets shut down to kill the jobs argument

# ? Aug 14, 2021 01:12

Adenoid Dan: Mar 8, 2012; The Hobo Serenader; Lipstick Apathy

It's really cool having entire industries that are actively harmful, but we can't shut them down because of the job loss, when it would be more productive than the status quo to pay them to do nothing for the rest of their lives.

I understand it's not actually about the job loss, that's just convenient propaganda, but it gets done with everything from lead to asbestos to fossil fuels and voters and politicians don't see through it.

# ? Aug 14, 2021 01:18

Owling Howl: Jul 17, 2019

Adenoid Dan posted:

It's really cool having entire industries that are actively harmful, but we can't shut them down because of the job loss, when it would be more productive than the status quo to pay them to do nothing for the rest of their lives.

I understand it's not actually about the job loss, that's just convenient propaganda, but it gets done with everything from lead to asbestos to fossil fuels and voters and politicians don't see through it.

White males wearing flannel and work boots is the self-image of the Western world whether its ranchers in Texas or fishermen in Britain .It's about preserving an ideal which allows us to pretend we're not privileged and bring associations to traditional values.

# ? Aug 14, 2021 08:54

VideoGameVet: May 14, 2005; It is by caffeine alone I set my bike in motion. It is by the juice of Java that pedaling acquires speed, the teeth acquire stains, stains become a warning. It is by caffeine alone I set my bike in motion.

Owling Howl posted:

White males wearing flannel and work boots is the self-image of the Western world whether its ranchers in Texas or fishermen in Britain .It's about preserving an ideal which allows us to pretend we're not privileged and bring associations to traditional values.

You can wear the same stuff working on Wind Turbines, if you can get over any fear of heights.

# ? Aug 15, 2021 20:14

VideoGameVet: May 14, 2005; It is by caffeine alone I set my bike in motion. It is by the juice of Java that pedaling acquires speed, the teeth acquire stains, stains become a warning. It is by caffeine alone I set my bike in motion.

Heck Yes! Loam! posted:

Its a crime that we aren't replacing these with nuclear.

I�d expect some of those nations to have a better time of it (nuclear) than our utilities who apparently have no incentive to finish these projects or run existing plants correctly. And that is sad.

# ? Aug 16, 2021 21:43

CommieGIR: Aug 22, 2006; The blue glow is a feature, not a bug; Pillbug

https://twitter.com/LenkaKollar/status/1428096491126620162?s=20

# ? Aug 19, 2021 16:19

Kaal: May 22, 2002; through thousands of posts in D&D over a decade, I now believe I know what I'm talking about. if I post forcefully and confidently, I can convince others that is true. no one sees through my facade.

CommieGIR posted:

https://twitter.com/LenkaKollar/status/1428096491126620162?s=20

Those are some pretty good statistics. Their renewables do include a fair amount of wood pellet biomass, which is unfortunate, but that's a European-wide problem.

# ? Aug 19, 2021 18:23

CommieGIR: Aug 22, 2006; The blue glow is a feature, not a bug; Pillbug

Kaal posted:

Those are some pretty good statistics. Their renewables do include a fair amount of wood pellet biomass, which is unfortunate, but that's a European-wide problem.

Yeah, I also think they plan to move off that with Wind and/or more Nuclear buildout given their current buildout.

# ? Aug 19, 2021 18:41

Kaal: May 22, 2002; through thousands of posts in D&D over a decade, I now believe I know what I'm talking about. if I post forcefully and confidently, I can convince others that is true. no one sees through my facade.

CommieGIR posted:

Yeah, I also think they plan to move off that with Wind and/or more Nuclear buildout given their current buildout.

Apparently Slovakia has poor wind resources, but I'm not sure why or to what extent. They do have a lot of untapped geothermal power capacity, which is good news.

# ? Aug 19, 2021 18:45

Orvin: Sep 9, 2006

I was curious as to what Slovakia�s load is that 2 nuclear units coming online could cover 20%, and I was surprised to lean that those Mochovce units are 470MW each. That puts their load at only about 4500MW.

I forget that some of those European countries are kinda tiny. And are not consuming on anything on par with the US.

# ? Aug 19, 2021 19:29

CommieGIR: Aug 22, 2006; The blue glow is a feature, not a bug; Pillbug

Orvin posted:

I was curious as to what Slovakia�s load is that 2 nuclear units coming online could cover 20%, and I was surprised to lean that those Mochovce units are 470MW each. That puts their load at only about 4500MW.

I forget that some of those European countries are kinda tiny. And are not consuming on anything on par with the US.

IIRC the new reactors that'll come online in 2025 are VVER-1200s, so double their current 470MW units.

https://twitter.com/ThatRadGuy5/status/1428566140918325249?s=20

CommieGIR fucked around with this message at 15:05 on Aug 20, 2021

# ? Aug 19, 2021 19:35

Pander: Oct 9, 2007; Fear is the glue that holds society together. It's what makes people suppress their worst impulses. Fear is power.

And at the end of fear, oblivion.

https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2021/aug/20/oil-firms-made-false-claims-on-blue-hydrogen-costs-says-ex-lobby-boss

Per *checks notes* a head of a lobbying firm advocating the generation of hydrogen from natural gas quit his position in disgust over bullshit industry claims about capturing carbon dioxide byproducts before they become GHGs. He says it's just a ploy to keep getting natural gas subsidies.

The process, when real capture efficiency and natural gas pipeline leaks are accounted for, is worse for GHG emissions than just burning the natl gas or coal. Eagerly awaiting natural gas flunkies insisting that it's merely a brief transition fuel, and that intentions are all good.

.

# ? Aug 23, 2021 15:17

CommieGIR: Aug 22, 2006; The blue glow is a feature, not a bug; Pillbug

Pander posted:

https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2021/aug/20/oil-firms-made-false-claims-on-blue-hydrogen-costs-says-ex-lobby-boss

Per *checks notes* a head of a lobbying firm advocating the generation of hydrogen from natural gas quit his position in disgust over bullshit industry claims about capturing carbon dioxide byproducts before they become GHGs. He says it's just a ploy to keep getting natural gas subsidies.

The process, when real capture efficiency and natural gas pipeline leaks are accounted for, is worse for GHG emissions than just burning the natl gas or coal. Eagerly awaiting natural gas flunkies insisting that it's merely a brief transition fuel, and that intentions are all good.

.

A good example of the problem:

https://twitter.com/ScottLuft/status/1429518871279570950?s=20

# ? Aug 23, 2021 16:00

Gucci Loafers: May 20, 2006; Ask yourself, do you really want to talk to pair of really nice gaudy shoes?

https://twitter.com/RichardMeyerDC/status/1430530438045605893?s=20

:eyepop:

# ? Aug 26, 2021 01:23

Potato Salad: Oct 23, 2014; nobody cares

alternately they can build roughly two dozen nuclear plants and be done with it, cost overruns be damned

# ? Aug 26, 2021 18:11

Infinite Karma: Oct 23, 2004; Good as dead

813,319 acres is 1,270 square miles, or 0.8% of California's open space. A 1-mile wide stretch on both sides of the I-10, I-15, and I-40 highways would be an obviously massive undertaking, but it would be just about enough space, and if you've driven through there, there's nothing from horizon to horizon.

# ? Aug 26, 2021 18:32

Freezer: Apr 20, 2001; The Earth is the cradle of the mind, but one cannot stay in the cradle forever.

To those of you knowledgeable in the subject, is there any substance to the lastest fusion lab success news?

# ? Aug 26, 2021 18:36

CommieGIR: Aug 22, 2006; The blue glow is a feature, not a bug; Pillbug

Infinite Karma posted:

813,319 acres is 1,270 square miles, or 0.8% of California's open space. A 1-mile wide stretch on both sides of the I-10, I-15, and I-40 highways would be an obviously massive undertaking, but it would be just about enough space, and if you've driven through there, there's nothing from horizon to horizon.

The problem remains that solar is not putting out its nameplate capacity. So double that amount if you want to actually reach that amount. And we don't have the storage to make it effective, and probably never will at this point. The nameplate rating for solar is only at its peak output, which it rarely reaches and only at midday.

Freezer posted:

To those of you knowledgeable in the subject, is there any substance to the lastest fusion lab success news?

Its interesting, but its not really too applicable to power generation since its being done at the National Ignition Facility, and doesn't address fusion as a power source.

CommieGIR fucked around with this message at 18:54 on Aug 26, 2021

# ? Aug 26, 2021 18:40

Phanatic: Mar 13, 2007; Please don't forget that I am an extremely racist idiot who also has terrible opinions about the Culture series.

Freezer posted:

To those of you knowledgeable in the subject, is there any substance to the lastest fusion lab success news?

There's never any substance to the latest fusion lab success news.

# ? Aug 26, 2021 18:47

Infinite Karma: Oct 23, 2004; Good as dead

CommieGIR posted:

The problem remains that solar is not putting out its nameplate capacity. So double that amount if you want to actually reach that amount. And we don't have the storage to make it effective, and probably never will at this point. The nameplate rating for solar is only at its peak output, which it rarely reaches and only at midday.

That number already is double, solar is typically rated at 4 acres/MW, this is more like 8+ acres/MW. Presumably it would also have a mix of wind to even out intermittency.

# ? Aug 26, 2021 19:10

CommieGIR: Aug 22, 2006; The blue glow is a feature, not a bug; Pillbug

Infinite Karma posted:

That number already is double, solar is typically rated at 4 acres/MW, this is more like 8+ acres/MW. Presumably it would also have a mix of wind to even out intermittency.

But it won't?

CommieGIR posted:

A good example of the problem:

https://twitter.com/ScottLuft/status/1429518871279570950?s=20

There is no case where California is going to be able to offset their needs with renewables alone, and they openly admit this by doubling down on Natural Gas.

https://www.energy.ca.gov/data-reports/energy-almanac/california-electricity-data/electric-generation-capacity-and-energy

CommieGIR fucked around with this message at 19:15 on Aug 26, 2021

# ? Aug 26, 2021 19:13

MomJeans420: Mar 19, 2007

Crosby B. Alfred posted:

https://twitter.com/RichardMeyerDC/status/1430530438045605893?s=20

and that's why we're adding "temporary" gas plants. In-state generation fluctuates but right now it's actually down compared to 10 years ago, and it turns out you can't always get power from neighboring states when they have a heatwave too. Unfortunately the general public thinks more solar is the answer and surely we can just grab a few Tesla batteries for storage, problem solved. Luckily we're pushing for increased electrification and BEVs while also losing Diablo Canyon in a few years, it should be great.

I did the math a while back and I think conservatively if every mile driven in CA was a BEV rather than an ICE vehicle, California would need around 30% more GWh of generation. That was assuming all those miles were fairly efficient BEVs too and not trucks.

# ? Aug 26, 2021 19:13

Aethernet: Jan 28, 2009; This is the Captain...

Our glorious political masters have, in their wisdom, decided to form an alliance with a rag-tag bunch of freedom fighters right when the Federation has us at a tactical disadvantage. Unsurprisingly, this has resulted in the Feds firing on our vessels...

Damn you Huxley!; Grimey Drawer

Freezer posted:

To those of you knowledgeable in the subject, is there any substance to the lastest fusion lab success news?

It brings inertial confinement designs to a similar technology readiness level to that of tokamak designs, but doesn't herald incipient commercialisation for either. It increases the odds of some form of fusion proving viable within the next thirty years by virtue of increasing the number of routes to it, but those odds were already quite low.

Or, as I explained it to a friend who wanted a simpler version, shooty laser fusion now just as irrelevant as big magnet fusion.

# ? Aug 26, 2021 19:34

Phanatic: Mar 13, 2007; Please don't forget that I am an extremely racist idiot who also has terrible opinions about the Culture series.

Aethernet posted:

It brings inertial confinement designs to a similar technology readiness level to that of tokamak designs, but doesn't herald incipient commercialisation for either. It increases the odds of some form of fusion proving viable within the next thirty years by virtue of increasing the number of routes to it, but those odds were already quite low.

Or, as I explained it to a friend who wanted a simpler version, shooty laser fusion now just as irrelevant as big magnet fusion.

Or to put it yet another way they put in 422 megajoules of energy and got out 1.3 megajoules.

# ? Aug 26, 2021 19:44

MrYenko: Jun 18, 2012; #2 isn't ALWAYS bad...

MomJeans420 posted:

That was assuming all those miles were fairly efficient BEVs too and not trucks.

*Laughs in Hummer EV*

# ? Aug 26, 2021 19:47

Deteriorata: Feb 6, 2005

Phanatic posted:

Or to put it yet another way they put in 422 megajoules of energy and got out 1.3 megajoules.

Give 'em another 30 years and they'll have it licked.

# ? Aug 26, 2021 19:50

Nitrousoxide: May 30, 2011; do not buy a oneplus phone

The high speed rail project and better local mass transit would dramatically reduce that requirement however.

# ? Aug 26, 2021 22:14

VideoGameVet: May 14, 2005; It is by caffeine alone I set my bike in motion. It is by the juice of Java that pedaling acquires speed, the teeth acquire stains, stains become a warning. It is by caffeine alone I set my bike in motion.

Freezer posted:

To those of you knowledgeable in the subject, is there any substance to the lastest fusion lab success news?

We're down to 19.9 years away before we have a practical fusion reactor, as opposed to the 20 years we've been at since 1979.

# ? Aug 26, 2021 23:55

Kalman: Jan 17, 2010

Freezer posted:

To those of you knowledgeable in the subject, is there any substance to the lastest fusion lab success news?

The press release announcing it has the following quote from the admin side:

�These extraordinary results from NIF advance the science that NNSA depends on to modernize our nuclear weapons and production as well as open new avenues of research.�

From this it should be quite clear why it was a success, but also why no one who�s interested in controlled generation of power via fusion should be real excited.

# ? Aug 27, 2021 01:18

suck my woke dick: Oct 10, 2012; I CANNOT EJACULATE WITHOUT SEEING NATIVE AMERICANS BRUTALISED!

Put this cum-loving slave on ignore immediately!

Setting off nukes in a waterlogged cave is a perfectly adequate steam generator for a power plant :colbert:

# ? Aug 27, 2021 02:28

MomJeans420: Mar 19, 2007

MrYenko posted:

*Laughs in Hummer EV*

Are you telling me that a 9k lb vehicle is not going to save the planet?

VideoGameVet posted:

We're down to 19.9 years away before we have a practical fusion reactor, as opposed to the 20 years we've been at since 1979.

So is practical fusion basically like "The Singularity?" Because I grew up on hearing it was always "10 years away," but that poo poo started in the 80s or 90s and here we are.

# ? Aug 27, 2021 06:22

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# ? May 9, 2024 08:32

His Divine Shadow: Aug 7, 2000; I'm not a fascist. I'm a priest. Fascists dress up in black and tell people what to do.

Goons nowadays seems to think it's cool to think fusion is non viable and that it's gonna remain so.

# ? Aug 27, 2021 06:53

The Something Awful Forums > Discussion > Debate & Discussion > The Energy Generation Megathread: Heated Exchanges

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