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As someone with social anxiety issues, among other things, I feel like for me it's important to make a distinction between someone speaking for me who I know and trust and have in fact asked to serve this role for me, and someone who I've barely met talking over me. Being my chorus when I can't find my own voice is extremely helpful. My partner takes over for me on certain kinds of phone calls where I just Can't. (This often involves medical/financial stuff where they do first confirm with me that yes, I am here, and yes, this person is speaking for me with my permission.) Having someone with me who knows how my head works saves a lot of trouble if I have a meltdown in public, as they can get me to a safe place to calm down and shoo away the kind of attention from strangers that want to help but only make things worse. This doesn't feel like a lack of agency to me, this feels like supporting me in my choices. And I will get annoyed if I've clearly turned to someone else to speak for me and the person I'm speaking to snaps at them and insists I have to speak up myself. Someone I don't know well who only understands that I'm "shy" and decides to drag me along without much input from me is quite different. Because yeah I probably will go along with it for a while to avoid making a fuss, but I'll be less interested in hanging out with them later. But I don't act like Hanako, hiding and stuttering all the time. I'm trying to look 'normal'. I can handle surface interactions with strangers where I know what I'm supposed to do and say in order to finish the job and get away. I panic when things go off script.* The stutter only kicks in if I'm really upset. And of course the more upset I am the more I know I don't look 'normal' and it all spirals out of control. To me, turning to me and asking me whether I want to join a thing, in front of people, is a huge social pressure, because now I'm more worried about what they will think if I say no than whether I want to or not. quote:Like, I hope it's something like "Hanako, I'm going to help them out for a little bit. I can meet up with you later, or do you want to stay and pitch in?" I agree that this would feel less pressuring to me. * - ironically or not I used to do Improv. but that's a situation where it's OKAY to say the wrong thing!
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Aug 14, 2021 14:09
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Now I'm trying to think about how I'd phrase this if the intention is to say that I'm going to help, and Hanako is welcome to join or decline. I'd probably not say "Sorry, but I did already promise to help them. I'll join you in the library when we're done, if you're still there. Although, if you want to lend a hand as well, I'm sure they can make room for you," because that seems reasonable and I doubt I'd come up with it on the spot. It seems obvious even to me that having more help would be beneficial, but by phrasing it as a not-quite imposition, I'm trying to make it more socially acceptable to take the less favored option without being TOO obvious. But the whole thing just highlights the difficulties with human conversation and shows why I hate doing it. Treating every interaction like a puzzle that I need to solve, where there's a clear correct answer that someone will point out to me days or months later while writing me up for some social offense, is what I want from a video game, not real life. Heck, I got thrown a question this week, buried in a long E-mail chain, that I had no idea how to answer. So, I said that I didn't understand what information I needed to provide, provided what I could, and signed off asking for a more specific question if there was anything else I could do. I got a "Whoa, back off, this guy's just trying to help us" from my manager. I have a lot to learn.
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Aug 14, 2021 15:24
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gegi posted:As someone with social anxiety issues, among other things, I feel like for me it's important to make a distinction between someone speaking for me who I know and trust and have in fact asked to serve this role for me, and someone who I've barely met talking over me. Haha yeah, as nice as personal agency is, often it's more like "please just leave me alone actually".  And in Katawa Shoujo's defence, of course Hanako isn't going to want to have anything to do with Shizune of all people.I think at the time I thought that this choice would result in Hisao spending time with Hanako (and not Shizune/Misha) either way, and that it was more a choice between "get bent, Shizune" and yeah... giving Hanako more agency. It was just a little vague to me! Anyway, I agree with everything you're saying there. I know exactly what you mean. That mirrors my experiences pretty closely. Nidoking posted:Treating every interaction like a puzzle that I need to solve, where there's a clear correct answer that someone will point out to me days or months later while writing me up for some social offense, is what I want from a video game, not real life. In contrast, I don't want this in games either. I get enough agonising over saying/doing the right thing in conversation in the real world; for me, games are meant to be an escape from that kind of thing.I hate it when games go "Hey, remember that seemingly innocuous forced binary dialogue choice you made based on intentionally limited information a few hours ago? Well now the puppy orphanage has burnt down and it's all your fault! How does it feel, fucker?"
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Aug 15, 2021 01:39
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Antistar01 posted:I hate it when games go "Hey, remember that seemingly innocuous forced binary dialogue choice you made based on intentionally limited information a few hours ago? Well now the puppy orphanage has burnt down and it's all your fault! How does it feel, fucker?" You know, I've always looked down on games that touted "making tough choices" as a selling point, and I think that's why. Unless you have really competent writers at the helm, those choices either boil down to last-minute "choose which person to sacrifice affairs" or that, and neither of them are good or engaging writing. If that happens in something I play, I either stop playing or pull out a walkthrough (depending on how committed I am to the game already). Also, I just updated the last update (and the first) with the new format, so tell me if you like what you see. Also also, I just discovered something fascinating by Suriko, Lilly's writer.
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Aug 15, 2021 02:18
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Nidoking posted:Now I'm trying to think about how I'd phrase this if the intention is to say that I'm going to help, and Hanako is welcome to join or decline. I'd probably not say "Sorry, but I did already promise to help them. I'll join you in the library when we're done, if you're still there. Although, if you want to lend a hand as well, I'm sure they can make room for you," because that seems reasonable and I doubt I'd come up with it on the spot. It seems obvious even to me that having more help would be beneficial, but by phrasing it as a not-quite imposition, I'm trying to make it more socially acceptable to take the less favored option without being TOO obvious. Social stuff is a pain. Tone is also really, really difficult to convey via text. For your e-mail, a good way to approach it is something like: "Sorry, I'm not sure how to answer your question, but here's some information that might help: List information, usually with bullet points If you need any additional information, please let me know. Thanks, Nidoking" That way you let them know you don't know everything, but you show that you're happy to help if they can be more specific. The apology and the please let me know shows them that you are able to help and willing to work with them to get them what they need. Sure, it's not actually an apology, but it puts them at ease and invites further discussion if it's necessary. Just providing information can come off as brusque and off-putting, and convey annoyance rather than a desire to inform. In person that's fine; you can see each others' body language and get a sense of whether they're uncomfortable of not. Online it's necessary to be a little more over the top with what you're saying to make sure the tone is conveyed. And it is all a pain in the rear end. Choosing words very carefully is tricky. Conveying tone properly is tricky. All of it is difficult, and communicating well is a skill that takes time and practice to develop. Circling back around to the game, it's tough to write dialogue options like this well because conveying the tone and the follow up in a few words is hard. Adding more words makes it irritating to read through each option, and can actually make things worse, and not better.
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Aug 15, 2021 02:26
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Falconier111 posted:You know, I've always looked down on games that touted "making tough choices" as a selling point, and I think that's why. Unless you have really competent writers at the helm, those choices either boil down to last-minute "choose which person to sacrifice affairs" or that, and neither of them are good or engaging writing. If that happens in something I play, I either stop playing or pull out a walkthrough (depending on how committed I am to the game already). IMO the best way to handle "tough choices" in games is to give the player full knowledge and control over their decisions and then not judge them for it. Make it clear that if they choose option A, then X/Y/Z foreseeable consequences will happen (including "this character/faction will be pleased, these others will be upset" kinds of consequences). Then follow through on that. Are those consequences worth it to the player? That's up to them to decide.
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Aug 15, 2021 02:30
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I quite enjoy games with lots of choices, even mean ones, because it IS a game and I can always go back and pick the other option later (and probably will). Unless the game is one of those that deliberately makes it difficult to experiment. If I had to struggle through hours of tough gameplay to get to a choice, I don't want to have to do that again just to go the other way. But if there's only one correct answer and the other options just lead to a really boring game over, what's the point of asking me? Bad ends should be interesting and/or informative.
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Aug 15, 2021 02:46
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I think that it's okay when a game doesn't tell the player the full ramifications of their actions as long as the immediate results are apparent, since that's a more organic way of handling things. You might be able to predict what the immediate outcome of your choices will be, but there's not always a reliable way of knowing how those choices will work out long-term. I think Telltale Games got that right more often than not, presenting choices in very clear terms. Though, what Telltale really did well was not judge the player for their choices, but rather just lay out the impact of their actions, and let the players judge themselves, and determine whether or not they'd have done anything differently, now knowing the outcome of their decisions.
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Aug 15, 2021 02:52
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Ironically this is also why S1 of Life is Strange was so good about choices, because a lot of them let you see the other option and then pick one to stick with, at least at first
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Aug 15, 2021 04:22
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"hey, remember that offhand remark you made a while ago? Yeah, I have opinions about that now and I'm upset with you" hits a bit too close to home for me. It's definitely not enjoyable to have to deal with something in a game that I have issues with in daily life. I'm often made aware just how many social cues I miss, and it's always a punch in the gut. I don't want to be a bull in a china shop, but it's my lot in life. Dance Officer fucked around with this message at 11:51 on Aug 15, 2021 |
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Aug 15, 2021 11:48
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I mean the issue with "small decision, big consequences" is that it's a shock twist about butterfly effect sometimes, but with repeated exposure (like almost all shocks in art) it becomes dull and irritating. I can even think of more recent games where it felt like it worked, but they did involve the telegraphing that the characters were prone to massive overreaction due to having tragic flaws. IDK I just don't know that there's simple blanket rules, a good execution can forgive a lot of conceptual sins.
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Aug 15, 2021 16:13
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 Interviews with Monster Girls, Episode 2: Dullahan-chan Wants to be Coddled (Pt. 1)  We open on the prep room.  Takahashi’s trying to hold a conversation with Kyouko, but he isn’t having a lot of success.  He keeps looking between her face in her lap and the giant flame on her neck (currently emitting  sounds). Kyouko’s just like  and doesn’t take offense, possibly because a giant cold blue flame shooting out of a teenager’s neck is a very unusual sight.  When he asks about it, she offers to let him touch it, which he does. He testifies it doesn’t feel like putting your hand to fire; in fact, it’s somewhere between moving your hand through slightly resistant air and something he has no context for. “It’s like something out of this world”.  And then he jumps back when she starts to cry. While some contact is fine, extensive contact – or loving grabbing hold of it – causes her serious nerve pain. Flustered and kind of upset, he makes it clear she has the right to refuse anything he requests (which I really hope he made clear before she sat down), but she recovers pretty quickly…  … And starts demonstrating the connection between her head in her body at his request by waving it around. They may be spatially distant, but on a biological level that flame may as well be a normal neck. There’s no time delay, no problems with interference, nothing.   She even accidentally tested it at one point. Her grandparents live in Okayama, about 650 km away from Tokyo (400 miles in American). At one point her body got on a bullet train that went all the way back to Tokyo with her head still in the arms of her horrified grandma. No issues, biologically at least.  He expresses the obligatory “that must be hard for you”, but she’s just kinda like “we make it work!”  Like, we get some shots of her in everyday life. She eats by placing her head in a sort of head-holding harness on her chest, which seems to work just fine. We also learn that she puts her head in a sling above the top by  getting a shot of her naked in the bath. The water covers everything up, but still.All in all, she’s pretty independent, as she demonstrates. I’ve talked about this before, but it’s worth noting that, while some of us don’t like talking about it, others actually enjoy talking about their disability and even showing it off. Sometimes, I’ve seen people get really awkward about it, like they’re worried that they might accidentally cross a line. Don’t worry about it; if they’re showing you, they expect you to be interested and won’t take offense. Just, you know, try not to condescend to them or talk down to them. You shouldn’t be doing that anyway, but it’s always worth drilling in. Anyway, as long as she uses the right equipment and takes some basic precautions, she can get around on her own. The real issue?  Social interaction.  People look at her and see her disability first and foremost. They do take time to interact with her, but it takes forever for them to get comfortable (Hikari’s an exception, seeing as to how she doesn’t give a poo poo). But Kyouko also got sick and had to miss the first few days of school, and as an incoming freshman, it means she missed the meet and greet stage, just making things worse. By the way, that’s what was up with the cold thing earlier; she forced herself to come in before she got over it to try and circumvent that issue, and ended up passing out from the strain. That is uncomfortably familiar for a lot of us. Forcing ourselves to keep up with people to stop them from judging us by our disabilities, only for our bodies to pay the price? Yeah, a lot of us of been there. And half the time (if that) it doesn’t even work. We’ll be touching on the extreme pressure of passing later. She just wishes her relationship with her classmates was so casual she could joke about her condition with them.  He leans back to consider this, showing his impressive forearms…  … And we find out for sure she has a crush.  Anyway, Takahashi suggests doing just that: if she wants that kind of friendship, she can open by setting her preferred level of formality and setting boundaries, which is… A really good suggestion! They move on to another topic – dullahans like Kyouko are super rare, literally 1 in a billion and he wants to talk to her about that – but she has… Other interests.  She wants him to hold her head. For science.  He complies. The anime makes it clear he’s not thinking about any possible romantic implications, but she is.  Eventually, she breaks, and her body expresses her emotional state with a massive pillar of cold flame. It literally bounces off the ceiling. After he goes  , she explains that having people hold her head calms her down, but she was told she had to get over it and stop now that she’s in high school. But… She just can’t do it.  As she goes  in his arms, Takahashi ruminates on how dullahans rely on other bodies just to get around. Even their own bodies are separate from their heads. He says they get lonely easily because that reliance makes being separate from others kind of dangerous and anxiety inducing. And… Well, being reliant on others is a complicated factor when it comes to disability. Some of us get along just fine on our own. Some of us need assistance and accommodations, but are capable of living independently if we can get them. And some of us need intensive care just to survive. It varies from person to person and circumstance to circumstance, and the things that need care aren’t always the disability itself; it’s entirely possible for, say, someone who can get around normally most of the time but is in constant danger if something goes wrong (such as many people with narcolepsy or, yes, Kyouko here) need psychological coping mechanisms on hand as well. I know her parents are just trying to help prepare her for the real world, but it’s probably not a great idea to take away that coping mechanism. Sometimes… You get a title drop!  Takahashi does make note of the fact that, despite the reality of the situation, him holding her head in his lap looks kind of inappropriate, but it probably won’t be an issue unless anyone sees them…   … Like Hikari.  Takahashi chases after Hikari as she shouts about having big news to tell everyone while Kyouko smiles ruefully.  Cut to Kyouko and Hikari walking home that afternoon. Kyouko thanks her for introducing her to Takahashi while Hikari laughs at the look on his face.  Hikari spots Yuki and, as is her wont, tackles her – and tries to invite herself along on the walk to her house, since they both live in the same direction. She also introduces Kyouko.  Yuki is… Less than enthused. Looking anxious, she begs off and heads out on her own with a paperthin excuse.  Hikari’s too busy fawning over her naturally cool body to notice.  Kyouko notices, though.  And we cut to the end of Hikari’s journey home. She invites Kyouko in, but Kyouko also begs off so she doesn’t worry her parents.  In a perfect example of convenient timing, her mom calls her at that exact moment and she has to go through a whole process of putting down her bookbag, crouching, fishing out her phone and only then holding a conversation.  Hikari watches her talk, waves as she heads off, and seems to think about something.   That night, Kyouko starts to go to sleep. As she drifts off, she considers how much more difficult high school’s going to be…   … Then wakes up and types herself a note for use the next day.  She goes to sleep thinking of her teacher crush. Falconier111 fucked around with this message at 19:49 on Aug 23, 2021 |
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Aug 16, 2021 02:45
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The little head house is incredible adorable.
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Aug 16, 2021 04:24
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Oh, I think I remember reading that - after being so taken with Katawa Shoujo itself. Like it says there, it's about Miki - who has character art and lines and shows up briefly in a few of the routes (I'm surprised she wasn't in Emi's route actually, since she's shown in the background as being in race/s with Emi) - and Suzu, who I think only shows up in the background and doesn't have lines. Miki is missing a hand, and Suzu... I think has narcolepsy? Anyway, I liked Katawa Shoujo enough that it was cool to have more of it, in this form.
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Aug 16, 2021 06:20
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Antistar01 posted:Oh, I think I remember reading that - after being so taken with Katawa Shoujo itself. I remember reading a thread on the KS forums that was a "route" for Suzu which I remember quite fondly, though I never came across this!
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Aug 16, 2021 15:52
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It's good to see this here, and handled well. Much like when I was actually playing the game, I started crying when we hit the end of Emi's route. That's gonna be a constant, I remember crying at the end of each route. I played KS long enough ago that I don't remember everything, but I do know my first run ended with the Manly Picnic, I got annoyed with Hisao for not actually doing what I told him to do (The "ask about Shizu's deafness" option, which, like, okay, I get it, he's his own character, not just a player avatar, but unless you're actively making a story wherein the lack of agency is a key factor, don't make dialogue options that the character just goes "I don't feel like saying that" to), and my first route was Hanako. I've got a post brewing about my own experiences with ADHD and autism, and either the same post or another will deal with myalgic encephalomyelitis (Spellcheck thinks that should be "magical electroencephalograms")/chronic fatigue syndrome. A great example of invisible disability, and one I didn't get diagnosed with until it was well past too late to ameliorate the effects.
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Aug 16, 2021 19:12
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Update 42: Chess and Slides Katawa Shoujo OST - The Student Council (Shizune’s Theme)   MISHA: "So, how about it, Hisao?" >"What do you think, Hanako?" >"I've done enough work for the council already."  This choice doesn’t effect ending we get, it just determines which of two scenes we get. =>"I've done enough work for the council already." This one takes us to a scene with the same title is this update, while the other takes us to one called Office Confessional. If you are wondering what that vote was about, this is it.  HISAO: "Hey, Shizune. I know I said I'd help, but I forgot I'd already made plans. Besides, I helped out more than my fair share last week, didn't I? I promise I'll make it up to you some other time." Shizune and Misha release their grip on me and have a long, deep, and silent conversation. MISHA: "Well, you have a point there. To be honest, we were only going to spend the rest of the budget on cakes. So, if you're not there, it works out better. More cake for us. Wahahaha~!" Shizune about-faces and marches out the door, and Misha skips out after her. (Silence) HISAO: "Well, that was a lot easier than I thought it was going to be. Last week those two were like bloodhounds. Or prison guards. Or maybe prison guards bred from bloodhounds..." I can't believe I just thought that, let alone saying it out loud. I think I need to move away from Kenji. HISAO: "...Never mind. Anyway, should we go to the library?"  HANAKO: "S-sure." (Crowd Sounds) Hanako follows me through the still-crowded halls to the library, using me as a shield. (Crowd Sounds End) Katawa Shoujo OST - Fripperies  As soon as we are through the door, Hanako bolts for the counter, where Yuuko is stacking books. Before I can catch up, Hanako has whispered something to her.  YUUKO: "Um, you'd find that in non-fiction, but I don't know where, exactly. If you want I can look it up..." HANAKO: "N-never mind." HISAO: "Hey Yuuko, what's all this about?" YUUKO: "Oh, Hisao... Hanako was just looking for a book on..." HANAKO: "N-nothing..." HISAO: "A book on nothing? In the non-fiction section?" HANAKO: "I... I was just..." I shoot a glance at Yuuko. She looks like she's about to burst from the pressure of keeping Hanako's request secret. HISAO: "Yuuko, what did..."  YUUKO: "Chess! She's looking for a chess book!" I make a mental note to never entrust Yuuko with any important information. HANAKO: "Y-Yuuko..." YUUKO: "I'm sorry Hanako... it just slipped out..." HISAO: "Well, it's not a secret any more. Come on, I'll give you a hand. I should really brush up on my skills, too." HANAKO: "O... okay." Yuuko disappears behind the counter in shame as Hanako and I wander into the depths of the non-fiction section. I know there is supposed to be a system for categorizing these books, but I don't see how anyone can decipher it without spending half of their life researching it. That's probably why all the librarians I know are neurotic. Towards the end of the aisle, between a book on card tricks and some book on kid's games, stands a single book bearing the title “Chess Tactics for Champions”."  Before I can reach for it, Hanako has the book in her hands, clutching it to her chest. HISAO: "Well, I guess that's yours then. Mind if I borrow it when you're finished?" HANAKO: "S-sure. I... I just haven't really played against anyone but L-Lilly before, so I thought..." drat. It's not like I was trying to beat Hanako deliberately or anything, but she seems to have taken it to heart. Then again, at least this means she wants to play me again. That's a plus, right? HISAO: "Ha, well it's not like I'm a master or anything; I just played a bit before..." It occurs to me that I haven't told Hanako about my condition. I falter for a second, deciding to cover my tracks. That is a conversation for another day. HISAO: "...before I came here." HANAKO: "Are... are you all right?" HISAO: "Yeah, I was just remembering something..." When I think about it, I shouldn't be afraid to tell Hanako about my condition and my time in the hospital. Judging by her scars, she probably spent a fair amount of time in a hospital bed. But, for some reason, I can't bring it up. At least not today, and not on short notice. (Silence) Eager to break off the conversation, I grab a random book from the shelf. It's some book on the world's fastest roller coasters... ...published in 1982. Well, not very up to date, but it should at least be interesting. HISAO: "Well, we both got books now, should we go sit down?" Hanako seems to accept my bluff, and we head to the reading nook in the back of the library. Neither of us says a word; we simply open our books and start reading. I try to read my book, but it would seem that in 1982 roller coasters weren't nearly as large as the ones built in the decades since. Most of the ones listed are made of wood. Something about that doesn't seem safe to me. If I'm going to ride on something potentially dangerous, I want it to be made out of steel, or some kind of space-age alloy that has big words like “Titanium” and “Ruthenium”. I quickly lose interest, and my eyes wander across the reading area to rest on Hanako.  Hanako seems absorbed in her book, flicking back and forth through the pages, as if confirming what she just read. I wonder if that's actually effective, or if she's just overloading herself. She unconsciously brushes her hair from her face, temporarily revealing her scar tissue. I'm still not sure about the protocol here. Is it right to ask her about her scars? Or her past? How long was she in the hospital? Does she still visit the doctor? These all seem like the questions that you'd ask someone who just transferred to your school, translated into the local language. But, to date, no one has directly asked me any of them. Well, except Rin, but I don't think I should use her as a guide to proper social behavior. For the time being, I'll just keep my mouth shut. If someone wants you to know something, then they'll tell you. Trying to force the issue might drive Hanako back into herself. Katawa Shoujo OST - Afternoon  YUUKO: "Um... sorry to interrupt, but I have to close the library now." HISAO: "Already?" I check my watch. Somehow, as I was lost in thought, nearly two hours have passed. YUUKO: "Do you want to check out those books? I can do it on the way out..." HANAKO: "P-please." HISAO: "I'm done. I'll drop this one back on the way through. It wasn't as interesting as I first thought." Hanako marks her place with a slip of paper and stands up. The girls head to the counter and I return my book to what I think is the right shelf. Yuuko scans Hanako's book with practiced precision, yet still manages to fumble it. YUUKO: "Oh... there we go. Third time lucky. Since this is a non-fiction book, you can only have it for a week." HANAKO: "T-that's okay." Yuuko shuts down the library's computer and herds us out the door. YUUKO: "Argh! I didn't think it was this late already...!" HISAO: "But you're the one that told us you had to close..." YUUKO: "Yes but, I know but, that was before I looked at the time! I'll see you later." Yuuko bolts down the hall, her handbag trailing behind her like an awkward streamer. HISAO: "I guess all librarians really are neurotic." HANAKO: "Huh?" HISAO: "Ah, never mind. I was just thinking that I've never met a librarian that can organize their time, no matter how good they are with their books." HANAKO: "Oh... I k-know what you mean..." Hanako smiles in amusement. It wasn't meant to be a joke, but I must have reminded her of some other librarian... or something... HANAKO: "I... I have to get back." HISAO: "Yeah, me too. I didn't realize it was this late. Thanks for letting me hang out with you." HANAKO: "N-no problem." HISAO: "I'm going to my dormitory room now anyway, so do you mind if I tag along?" HANAKO: "O-okay." Hanako sets off ahead of me, and I need to jog a little to reach her side. We walk through the gardens, eventually arriving in front of the dorm buildings. HISAO: "Man, you walk pretty fast. I used to play in a soccer club, and you manage to outpace me." (Silence) I kinda regret saying that. It has less to do with her pace than with the fact that my condition has significantly worsened my fitness. Hanako's reaction is odd. I expected an awkward attempt to downplay her walking speed, but she just blushes while looking at her feet and smiling.  Silence hangs in the air between us. That happens often around Hanako, but feels slightly different than usual this time. After a few seconds, I try to break the silence. HISAO: "Here you go. See you in class tomorrow?" HANAKO: "S-sure." Hanako waves a short goodbye before pushing her way through the dorm's doors. I stand and look at them for a while, before making my way to my own dormitory room. Katawa Shoujo OST ~ Passing of Time  (Silence) Now back to the main story. Chirping birds. Normally, this would be a good time to reflect upon the beauty of nature. But it is 6 AM. Covering my head with the pillow, I slam my face into the mattress, hoping that the impact will send me instantly back to sleep. Futile. I toss and turn, but sleep simply won't return to me. All right nature, you've won. See? I'm getting up now... The lack of sleep weighs my mind down, and there's only one remedy for this; a nice, hearty breakfast. Katawa Shoujo OST - Daylight (Muted Crowd Noises)  It would be nice to be the first person here. To be the first to dig into a piping hot pile of food, to sit wherever I desire... It would have been nice. But even my exceptionally early start has put me behind the most diligent students. I guess there are quite a few people that have early starts here, for one reason or another. A group of students in sports clothes huddle around one table, eagerly discussing game plans inbetween inhaling great gulps of food. Scattered around the hall are a number of bleary-eyed students, probably suffering from the same ailment as myself - noisy birds. And, of course, there are the people that actually enjoy getting up this early, the ones with their bags stuffed with textbooks and completed homework. It's hard not to despise people like that, even more so when you're tired yourself. Picking out a familiar face from the thin crowd, I head towards the nearest table. Lilly sits alone, delicately feeling her way around a small plate of eggs with her fork. It's almost a shame to interrupt her and her clockwork movements. I wonder, is this how a blind person zones out? Simply moving in pre-determined patterns learned over the years, just like how a sighted person would eat while reading a newspaper. HISAO: "Good morning, Lilly. I didn't expect you to be here this early."   LILLY: "Oh, Hisao, you startled me. I didn't know you took breakfast this early." HISAO: "I don't. This is an exception to the rule. I'd greatly prefer to be late to school than early to breakfast." Lilly gives a small sigh at my admitted tardiness as I begin eating my food. It doesn't take long for her to lapse back into her previous mindless nibbling. Each short motion lacks energy. I suppose this is similar to letting your eyes wander while performing any ordinary chore. But after a few repetitions of the find food/eat food cycle, Lilly puts down her fork and dabs her lips with a napkin. (Silence)  LILLY: "Hisao, do you mind if I ask you a question?" drat. All I want is a little food and about four hours of sleep. And nobody says “can I ask you a question” for a simple question. HISAO: "Sure."  LILLY: "Do you think of Hanako as a friend?" Huh, this seems like a leading question. HISAO: "I... guess so. Why do you ask?" LILLY: "No real reason. I do have another question though. Katawa Shoujo OST - Lullaby of Open Eyes LILLY: "Why is it that you think of her as a friend?" This is well above my level. What is she expecting from me?" HISAO: "I'm not really sure. I guess it's because she's a little different in the way she deals with people..." LILLY: "Hmm. Since I've known her, she hasn't really connected with anyone. She doesn't seem interested in other people, and I think people are a little scared off by her appearance." HISAO: "Really? I thought that kind of thing was, well, discouraged here. Discriminating and such." LILLY: "Hmm, if I were to put it one way..." She furrows her brow in thought, a move which makes me slightly anxious as to what she's plucking from her mind.  LILLY: "I’d say that you’re a little naive.” Naive? I'd be insulted if not for the slightly cynical grin on her face. HISAO: "I... see." LILLY: "While Yamaku has a stronger sense of community compared to other schools, it's far from being free of conflict. Rules cannot remove human nature, after all, only suppress it." That's something I've noticed, actually. Just little things, like how certain people and cliques avoid each other in the hallways. It's no different than my old school, really. Even Lilly and Shizune could be considered bitter rivals, even though they both seem like fairly accepting people. Well, at least the Misha-tinted Shizune does; who knows what actually goes on with her fingers and behind her glasses. HISAO: "I guess you're right. But when I first came here, everything was a bit of a shock. I kept on making mistakes, or at least thinking I was making mistakes. Like when we first met, and I said “I see” to you. I didn't know if that was considered rude or anything, so I tried to just put it in the back of my mind. Treating people any differently and that kinda thing. So I didn't. I told myself that Hanako and you and everyone else was just normal, and I tried to ignore the obvious. I talked to Hanako as if she were any other person, and so we became friends. At least, that's how I think it happened. But you know, I feel guilty just from saying something like that aloud. As if it took extra effort to think of Hanako, or you, or anyone here as normal people. I don't think that's right.”  LILLY: "Hisao, I think you are naive, but I also think that you are a good person. It is perhaps one of your better traits." HISAO: "I... suppose... I can take that as a compliment..." LILLY: "Tell me, are you free tonight?" HISAO: "If you don't count homework, then I'm as free as the breeze." LILLY: "In that case, would you care to join myself and Hanako for tea?" HISAO: "Er, I don't really have that much money at the moment, so going out isn't really..."  LILLY: "Oh, I didn't mean going out. Just here, this evening." HISAO: "You can access the classrooms in the evening here?" LILLY: "No, that's not what I meant. Hanako and I often use my room for tea parties together. Please feel free to drop by after dusk." HISAO: "Sure, I see no problem with that. What's your room number?" LILLY: "225; Room 25 on the second floor." HISAO: "Okay, sure." LILLY: "Well then, I had best be off. I have class representative duties to attend to, after all. Until this evening, Hisao." HISAO: "Yeah, catch you later." Hang on... was I just invited to a girl's room after hours? Is that even allowed? There is the curfew here, but I've never heard any rules about visitors in the dorm rooms. Even still, this is enough to get my sleep-deprived brain jump-started. Add that to a lukewarm breakfast and you have one hell of a pick-me-up. (Silence I grudgingly go to class, still a little excited at the prospect of breaking the rules. I feel a little like a kid planning to sneak out of his window at night. Well, maybe that's going a little too far, but when you compare an invitation to a party to six or so hours of lectures, I know which one wins. Misha and Shizune do little to relieve my boredom either. For once, they seem determined to actually complete Mutou's assignments. Nevertheless, the day eventually winds to a close. I hurry back to my room to wash up and comb my hair. Thankfully I don't run into Kenji. Before long I am leaving the boys' dorm.  I nervously rap on the door marked 225, checking my watch once again. LILLY: "Is that you, Hisao? The door is open, you can come in." Lilly's voice lilts through the door and soothes my nerves. This is the first time I've been invited to a girl's room after dark. Even though I know there is no ulterior motive behind this invitation, it doesn't stop my mind running wild with possibilities. One guy. Two girls. In a dorm room. With a tea set. When I put it like that, it sounds a little dodgy. Giving a small sigh to steady myself, I gingerly put my hand on the handle and open the door, craning my head to see inside. Katawa Shoujo OST - To Become One  To Become One isn’t ONLY the sex theme; like most tracks, the game reuses it from time to time when it fits the mood regardless of its origins. The door opens completely and I catch my first glimpse of Lilly's room. Her furniture looks almost antique, but the bare walls and flat surfaces are barely decorated at all. In the center of the room sits a low table, where I see a small tea set at rest. It seems that everything in this room has its place, possibly excepting the several piles of books stacked up against the wall. My sense of vision isn't the only one to be stimulated; the faint smell of something can be picked up on the air. Nail polish, perfume, makeup... it's hard to describe in any way other than “girly”. My eyes finish their quick sweep of the room, before returning their position onto the girls. The camera pans over Lilly and Hanako. Lilly sits next to the small table, wearing very dark blue pajamas. Dark blue pajamas with shorts that show off plenty of her alluring pale legs. Opposite her, Hanako sits adorned in a conservative light pink gown. Her hands are firmly fixed between her legs, her shoulders forward, and her head down, as if trying to hide herself in it. It would be easy for her to do; it looks about two sizes too big for her. Waves of flannel flow from her frame, making her look like a child playing dress-up in her parents' clothes. She looks up to confirm my identity, and the beginnings of a thin smile creep across her face, before vanishing so fast that I can't be sure they ever were there. (Silence)  LILLY: "There's no point in you standing in the doorway, Hisao." I take a step into the room, closing the door behind me. LILLY: "My my, I'm afraid this really is a small room for the three of us. Would you like to take a seat?" I slowly walk to the table and sit down, trying my hardest not to disturb anything along the way. I also can't help but steal a quick glance into Lilly's top as I sit. To be robbed of sight would be a most terrible fate. LILLY: "Well now, how about some tea. Hanako, could you please pour?" HANAKO: "S... sure. Hi... sao... would... ..would you... ...would you like..." HISAO: "I would love some tea. Do you need a hand?" HANAKO: "N... no, I'm fine.. Thank you…” Katawa Shoujo OST - Raindrops and Puddles  Lilly finds it difficult to resist a smile at her companion's nervousness, something I can't really blame her for. HISAO: "Been a tiring day?" HANAKO: "Y... yeah." I relax at my place, opposite of the cabinet. To my left is the blue-clad Lilly and to my right sits the pink Hanako. The tea set on the table looks cute as well as practical; painted red with a floral motif. It looks odd when contrasted with Lilly's plain but generally sophisticated-looking furniture, which leads me to think that Hanako might have picked it out. There is a slight “ting” when Hanako accidentally clips the teapot on a cup as she is pouring. She breathes in sharply; she must be really nervous, as it's not the kind of thing anyone would worry about. Hanako quivers at her mistake. LILLY: "It's okay, Hanako. There's no need to be nervous." Hanako seems to find some confidence in Lilly's reassuringly soft-spoken words and deftly pours the next two cups. HANAKO: "Here you are, Hisao... Lilly." Hanako carefully places a cup and saucer in front of Lilly and myself. I could get used to service like this. LILLY: "Thank you, Hanako." HISAO: "Yeah, thanks." HANAKO: "Y-you're welcome." Lilly searches for her cup, and upon finding it, sips delicately. I do the same. This tea tastes somewhat better than the tea we usually have at school. HISAO: "This is nice, it's so different from any tea I had before..." LILLY: "Looks like you picked the right one, Hanako. You've done well, even if it was a bold move." Hanako's smile returns, redoubled. Even with her blighted face, her shy smile couldn't be called anything but “cute”. HANAKO: "I'm glad you like it..." Hanako, finally beginning to relax, sips from her cup. Katawa Shoujo OST - Raindrops and Puddles (Muted) Something about this makes me think about Lilly's question at breakfast. Why am I friends with Hanako? Lilly seems genuinely concerned for Hanako's well being, but it's not like I can do anything to help her. As far as I can tell, her scars don't hold her back physically, and everyone I've met seems to have overcome their disabilities to some extent. I don't have any ulterior motives to hang out with Hanako, we just share similar interests. Isn't that enough? Katawa Shoujo OST - Raindrops and Puddles LILLY: "So, Hisao, are you enjoying yourself?" Lilly's words break me out of my reverie, and I take a second to reconsider where I am. I'm in a room with two girls in their bedclothes. This is something to be enjoyed. HISAO: "Yeah, it's relaxing. Almost like I'm not in the school any more. Do you do this often?" LILLY: "Quite often, but not as often as we take tea in the school building." Considering they do that nearly every day, that's not a big surprise. As I move to take another sip from my teacup, I find it sadly empty. HISAO: "That was delicious. Thank you Hanako, Lilly." HANAKO: "You're welcome." LILLY: "Yes, you're most welcome Hisao. It's nice to have a third person here." HISAO: "Well, any time you need someone to fill that position, I'm always available. Always." One must be sure to get one's point across in these circumstances. (Silence) Lilly lets loose a yawn, which she unsuccessfully hides with her hand. LILLY: "Pardon me, I think I'm a little tired." HANAKO: "I think we're all a little tired..." LILLY: "My my, how astute we are tonight, Hanako. We really should head to bed; we all have class tomorrow." HISAO: "Yeah... I should go." LILLY: "Thank you for your presence, Hisao." HANAKO: "Th... thanks. You'll come again?" HISAO: "Not even a whole army could stop me." LILLY: "I'm impressed by your determination, Hisao." HISAO: "Either way, you're right. We'd best get going." I stand up, and make for the door. Hanako gingerly stands up behind me. I stop and face her. HISAO: "Are you coming with me?" Katawa Shoujo OST - Katawa Shoujo OST - Generic Happy Music Hanako instantly blossoms into full blush. HANAKO: "No... I... not... this room... isn't..." HISAO: "It's okay, I was only joking." HANAKO: "Oh... okay... good night..." LILLY: "Good night, Hanako. Good night, Hisao." HISAO: "Night all." And with that, our tea party finishes. I'm still not sure what it is that Lilly wants me to do for Hanako, but I don't want to let her down. I wait until the door has closed behind us before turning to Hanako. HISAO: "Hey, Hanako, you know, you don't have to be nervous around me or anything. I mean, we're friends, right?"  HANAKO: "R-right. We're... friends." HISAO: "If you ever want to hang out or anything, just let me know. We still need to have that chess rematch, remember?"  HANAKO: "S-sure... B-but I don't think you'll win..." HISAO: "It wouldn't be any fun if it was easy." Hanako seems to give a muted laugh, but she could have just as easily been exhaling. HANAKO: "G-good night Hisao..." (Silence) With that, Hanako quickly retreats into her room, located next to Lilly's. I start to walk back to my dorm, but the simple act of walking seems to drain me of my energy. I barely make it to my room before I am hit by a wave of exhaustion. I kick off my shoes, fall into bed and fall asleep by the time my head hits the pillow. Oh poo poo, I forgot to ask earlier: how do screenreaders deal with line breaks on SA? The two might be overkill, worth finding out before I get like 90% of the way through redoing the LP.
Falconier111 fucked around with this message at 01:40 on Oct 6, 2021 |
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Aug 16, 2021 20:30
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Falconier111 posted:
This idea is interesting, when you’re an paraprofessional, whose training both encompasses both aspects of ‘prevent and work through not only physical, emotional and social harm’ and ‘allow your clients to make mistakes and grow independently.’ Yes, you expect that the notion of individuals within your agency is “we all have a reason to be here, and because of that, we all need some sense of respect and care for others’ but there are the…Kenjis…of the programs, for lack of a better word. We’re supposed to engage and respect those feelings, and help them to sort them out. The other point is in when to engage. I have had colleagues tell me to not engage on a social level, I have had to engage in social situations that are insulting and hurtful to teach through empathic awareness, I have had trainings where-for example, Supported Employment-where we are supposed to consider the nature of the business and its needs over the client’s own comfort or anxieties, for the job. which is anathema and heretical at the best of times, but the client also needs to work and respect the work culture. In the school, we’ve seen one excellent individual para moments, and one not so great…Yuuko is a bit on the shaky side-almost playing with too much of a silk glove-but her heart is clearly in the right place. I have no doubt that Matou has had to do a “Hey. Stop it you two, come after class, speak to both offenders with no punishment but empathy.” Conversation with analogy and workaround as we’ve seen 1-to-1 with Emi’s route. How much would the school stamp down on ‘human nature’, like Lilly says…that’s an interesting question. The answer that I can give is my own: within agency-giving reason, you are supposed to engage and support where available, find natural supports (as Hisao and Lilly are to Hanako), and allow them to do the work…but you’re still there. You’re supposed to be there. Which is why the absence of Matou is…interesting to me, but not concerning. Not yet.
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Aug 16, 2021 22:44
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Okay, Hisao backed out of helping the council a lot more gracefully than I expected. Which: cool. Of course, then he goes and sticks his nose all up into Hanako's book choices. Which: not cool.
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Aug 16, 2021 22:51
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So... social anxiety disorder. (Also known as social phobia.) Here's a wall-of-text effort post about my experience suffering from it. Usual disclaimer: just my personal experiences, I'm not a doctor, etc. Trying to summarise Social Anxiety Disorder (SAD) The first psychologist I saw said something once that always stuck with me: "You're so afraid of rejection that you effectively reject people before they have a chance to reject you." If you had to summarise SAD in a short sentence, that'd be a pretty good attempt, I think. It usually is described as a persistent, strong fear of being perceived negatively in social situations. What my psychologist said to me there was in the context of me avoiding as much social interaction as I could - which touches on that very similar diagnosis; Avoidant Personality Disorder. It is the most common coping mechanism employed by SAD sufferers - and it's obviously similar across phobias generally: avoid the thing that terrifies you. That's kind of a problem in a society/culture/world where social interaction is just assumed across... almost everything, it feels like! So many systems. Hell, it's in the word "society" itself. There are inevitably things that you can't avoid, and for those, you put up with it to the extent that you can - but usually at the cost of a lot of distress. Sometimes people might say something like "you made it through school" or "you've worked in a job like this before", implying (probably even in a well-meaning way) that you should be able to cope with it since you've done it before. They perhaps don't understand that it's a bit like saying "you've survived torture before - so some more torture should be fine, right?". Often it just gets worse with repeated exposure, if you're not coping with it; piling up the anxiety and trauma. More and more things become issues. Even just the sound of someone knocking on a door - or a phone ringing - can be a triggering event. It certainly is for me. I hate hearing those sounds in media - and obviously the real thing is worse. I have no idea if many people actually confuse SAD with anti-social behaviours or disorders, but to be clear: they're very different things. With SAD, it's not a case of not liking people, or not wanting the usual range of relationships that people have. Kind of the opposite, really; again, you're afraid of rejection. It's actually one of the cruellest aspects of SAD: even though you're afraid of social interaction and therefore avoid being around people, you still get lonely. Social contact is described as one of our basic needs - alongside food, shelter, etc. Well, imagine if you were allergic to food. Just... all food. It can be absolutely crushing. Keeping up appearances Since the driving motive of someone with SAD is usually to avoid attracting attention - at virtually all costs - it means you become very practised at acting as if you're fine, even when you're not. With that in mind, I can't help but think of Hanako's body language in Katawa Shoujo as being kind of atypical for someone with SAD, since it makes her anxiety very obvious to anyone looking at her. Obviously it's a stylistic element of her character design, to some extent - like the other anime-style aspects of her design are - but still. Having said that, I do still sometimes think back to this guy I would see around Uni. His body language just screamed "social anxiety". He was pale and very skinny - his head looked too big for his body - and he always had this hunted expression. He would walk around cradling his elbows in his hands, arms held close to his body - all the time. When I remember him, I think "he looked like how I feel a lot of the time". Anyway, this kind of "acting" can lead to some very nasty situations, like suffering a panic attack that lasts for months while appearing basically normal to observers. I'm not pulling that example out of nowhere: that was my life at high school! Panic attacks that lasted for months. (If you've ever had one, you'll know that they're terrifying and that they can make a minute feel like an eternity. Imagine then what that's like if it goes on for months.) Maybe unsurprisingly after that, my hair started going grey when I was seventeen. It strikes me as maybe being similar to the concept of "masking" for people on the spectrum - at least in terms of having to put up a front and act a certain way to get by (or just survive) in social situations, and in terms of how exhausting it is to do that. Like, even though I do enjoy catching up with my friends, even a low-key thing like lunch and a board games afternoon - in a small group at a friend's place - gets to really wear on me after only a few hours. I'll be absolutely drained for the rest of the day, or even the following day/s. And that's with friends. Many of whom I've known for decades at this point. Causes It's not known for sure what causes SAD. I wasn't diagnosed until my late twenties - I just didn't know that "social anxiety disorder" existed as a diagnosis until then - but in hindsight it's always been there for me. Like, always. A little while ago, my mother showed me a series of back-and-forth letters with a friend of hers that she discovered in some box somewhere, dating back to when I was barely a toddler. In them, she was talking about how she hoped I would grow out of being so shy. Similarly, school reports from when I was seven or whatever would talk about how I was "quiet" and "preferred doing things on my own". So, always there - but unsurprisingly it became a big problem during high school. Darkest time of my life. High school's a bad place to be for most people, right? Kind of like prison, it seems to me. Somewhere you're legally required to be, packed in with people you normally would not choose to be around - people who mean to harm you, and are given plenty of opportunities to do so given the environment. I don't know, maybe it's better these days. It was a very bad environment for someone with SAD, though. Another thing that first psychologist said once that I always remember is that she thought it was a miracle I made it through high school. Employment Employment is difficult with SAD. Obviously, applying and interviewing for jobs is difficult enough for the average person. No surprise that it's much, much worse if you have SAD. And then actually working with people is usually excruciating. Even if you're not directly interacting with people all the time as part of your job, it's rare to have a job that doesn't require it at least some of the time. Reporting to your boss, or your client - or your work being delivered/evaluated - whatever. You're anxious about the current interaction and/or the upcoming interaction. Obviously it's worse if you're around people all the time as part of your job though. (Say, in an open-plan office.) Imagine trying to do your job while sitting in the middle of a war-zone, or busy freeway, or surrounded by long grass full of hungry apex predators... Sub-consciously, your brain is telling you that you're in danger all the time. Unsurprisingly it has a detrimental impact on your work. You worry that your work isn't going to be good enough - that you're going to let everyone down - and then that worry comes true because your work suffers since you can't concentrate thanks to your fight/flight/freeze response going off all the time, and then you get passed over for promotions, are the first to be made redundant if the company is struggling, etc, etc. So now you've lost your job. This is the point where all that networking pays off, surely? After all it's (unfortunately) not what you know, but who you know, right? Well too bad! You probably don't have any of that because you have SAD! It's apparently very common for social anxiety sufferers to work in jobs well below their ability level, simply in order to avoid social interaction - or perhaps because they find they can't handle the added pressure (perceived or otherwise) from the responsibilities associated with jobs that meet their ability level, when it's on top of their already very high social anxiety. Romance and relationships Romance... oof. It's hard with SAD! Obviously it's hard. If you avoid being around people, if you don't get out much, if you're anxious talking to people you don't know well, etc, etc - then it's hard to meet new people, let alone get into romantic relationships. Staying in relationships can be hard too. E.g. if you lack experience with social interaction generally - and more intimate relationships especially - due to all the avoidance, it can make navigating relationships more difficult. The crushingly-low self-esteem that often comes with SAD and depression doesn't help. My last girlfriend... the night we got together, I remember she was already asleep but I was lying there having a massive panic attack, wondering if I could actually manage being emotionally available enough with her, or even just be around her enough without my anxiety flaring up to the point where I couldn't function, torpedoing everything. I dunno... don't want to talk about this stuff too much, I think; it's painful. It has to be said, though: break-ups can be brutal. Remember that one of the core parts of SAD is a fear of rejection - and rejection doesn't get much more severe and personal than a romantic partner leaving you. Relationships more generally are challenging with SAD too. Staying in touch can be rough if it's hard for you to make the first move and contact someone. Getting back in touch is even more difficult - just the thought of trying to answer the dreaded "so what have you been up to?" question is traumatic when an honest answer may be along the lines of "my life has more or less stalled due to crippling mental health issues, so I've mostly been just trying to cope". As a side note, this seems (to me, at least?) similar to the concept of "queer time". Society expects you to do certain things at certain ages - dating, marriage, having kids, climbing some kind of employment ladder - but these intensely social things are much more challenging for people with SAD. It's easy to fall outside of time, so to speak. Treatment - Therapy The usual treatments for SAD are therapy and medication. Cognitive Behavioural Therapy (CBT) is the most common I think, and is what the first psychologist I saw was using. Unfortunately it didn't work for me. I learned a lot about my disorder, but could never get anywhere with actually... suffering from it less. Went around and around in circles for a few years until she eventually gave up on me or forgot that she had said she would get back to me about a time for the next session. The second psychologist - who I'm still seeing (theoretically; plague times and some health issues she's been suffering have made this difficult) - is using positive psychology, I think she said it was. It's certainly worked better for me than CBT did. My anxiety and depression are still an obstacle to functioning "normally", but they're a lot better than they were. There's a lot less abject misery, at least. Treatment - Medication With medication, the first thing prescribed to try to treat SAD is usually the anti-depressant paroxetine, since it's apparently been found to have some success treating it. People with SAD are like three times more likely to also suffer from depression (who would have thought), so hey... there's often some synergy there, too. I thought the paroxetine was going to work. I expected it to work. If ever there was a time for the placebo effect, that was it. I thought the combination of CBT and the paroxetine would - if not fix me, at least reduce my anxiety/depression/etc to the point where I could function in "normal" everyday society. Unfortunately it didn't work. Nothing worked: over several years I was tried on all sorts of anti-depressants and anti-anxiety medications - typical and atypical. It was extremely unfortunate; I really needed it to work. Instead of the benefits of these medications, I just got the side effects - and some of them can be pretty nasty. If that wasn't enough, a lot of anti-depressants have severe discontinuation syndromes associated with them. Paroxetine is especially bad for that. I always followed the doctors' instructions re: tapering off slowly, but always suffered discontinuation syndrome anyway. Nausea, dizziness, constant electric shock sensations, and... well, they call it "rebound depression/anxiety", but that implies that it was improved while on the medication, which was not the case for me. Instead, it was more like: feel bad, go on the medication and feel the same (or worse due to the side effects and the slow, crushing realisation that this one wasn't going to work either), then taper off the medication and feel like the world is ending. Even if you know it's just the medication messing with your brain chemistry, you still feel like the world's ending. It sends your anxiety through the drat roof. I'd never argue that medication shouldn't ever be used to treat depression/anxiety; I think it's literally a life-saver for some people - but in my own experience, it's like trying to swat a fly with a sledgehammer. Maybe it'll work for you - and maybe you'll be lucky and not even suffer too much collateral damage - but if you're like me, you'll just end up with smashed furniture, walls full of holes, and an agitated fly buzzing around your head. The last straw was accidentally overdosing on benzodiazepines and losing ~6 hours to amnesia. At least I think it was an overdose: I kind of can't remember! It happened on a Sunday morning when I was having an extremely rough time due to my girlfriend breaking up with me the previous day, suffering general "the world is ending" levels of anxiety due to discontinuation syndrome from coming off an anti-depressant I had been on for quite a while, my grandfather being on his death-bed, and the psychiatrist I had been seeing having given up on me a few days earlier, saying that there was no point seeing him anymore since he didn't think I could be helped. (In hindsight I think I was better off without him.) The last thing I remember thinking was "if there was ever a time for this stuff to actually do something, this is it." The next thing I knew, it was 3pm, I had at some point had a shower and a perfect clean shave, had eaten breakfast twice for some reason, and (I think) gone back to bed. Kind of foggy on that last part. The rest of the day is kind of foggy too, but I called a friend and he and his girlfriend (now wife) took me to the after-hours doctors, then back to their place to make sure I was alright for the rest of the day. We watched The Cabin in the Woods, but I don't really remember it, except that it probably wasn't really a good choice considering my mental state at the time. I'll never know exactly how it happened, but the thing with benzodiazepines is that you (generally?) don't take them like anti-depressants or something: a regular dose at a regular time - due to problems with developing a tolerance, dependence, withdrawal, etc. Instead, that psychiatrist had prescribed two different benzodiazepines (one stronger than the other), with the vague instructions to take some when my anxiety was high, with a higher dose if my anxiety was higher. So maybe I mixed up the doses and took as much of the stronger one as I should have taken of the weaker one? Maybe I took some of each and mixing them was the problem? Notably, that psychiatrist did not warn me about any of that. I didn't know that that could happen. He was not very good at his job. But yeah, that was it. That was the last straw. I've never touched anti-depressants or anti-anxiety medication since. Treatment - Desperation Out of desperation, I even tried hypnosis and neurofeedback (respectively) at one point. Hypnosis seemed similar to guided imagery therapy; mainly aimed at getting you to relax. You know what isn't relaxing for someone with SAD, though? Having someone you don't know just talk at you for a while. Especially when you're sitting in an unfamiliar place with your eyes closed. I only did that once (I think it was at the suggestion of that first psychologist I saw); seemed like a waste of time and money. Neurofeedback involved having brain-wave sensors stuck to my head while I watched a video (I think I went with one of the Shrek movies) for twenty minutes or so at a time. From memory, it would dim the image and lower the volume if it detected brain-waves associated with anxiety. It's supposed to reinforce "relaxed" brain-waves via the video being more comfortable to watch when it detects them. My experience was that the brightness and volume would fluctuate annoyingly - and this didn't change, even after a number of sessions. The guy running it seemed surprised that it wasn't working for me, and offered to keep doing sessions at no charge until I saw a benefit from it. I had had enough by that point though, and declined. Conclusion Sorry about the length; it's just that SAD has had a massive negative impact on my life, so there's a lot to talk about - and much more I could say. I don't think SAD gets talked about nearly enough (as evidenced by my not having even heard of it until my late twenties), despite so many people suffering from it. I think it's important.
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Aug 17, 2021 06:41
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I don't have an example handy, but one thing I've seen on a lot of really basic intro-level social anxiety websites is an attempt to be "helpful and reassuring" by telling sufferers that no one really notices their symptoms and they aren't nearly as embarrassing as they think they are. You feel like you're blushing a lot, but no one notices, really! So they say, but at least for me, this is an absolute lie. Everyone can tell when I get upset and overwhelmed! Most commonly, because I burst into tears. There's something wrong with me that makes me cry far too easily. It's hard to talk about because I literally can't even think about it without the effect kicking off. Yes, just typing this, my eyes have started leaking. It's highly annoying, but it'll go away in a few minutes as long as no one sees me and I stop talking about this. But of course, in public, if you start crying, people tend to be either angry with you or trying really hard to help. "What's wrong? What can I do?" Well-meaning responses that mean that people are paying more attention to me, which makes me more upset, and can easily drive me into gasping, panicking sobs. I am very fortunate in the way my life has worked out which allows me to keep a (WFH) job and a relationship while strictly limiting my social interactions. I've also never lasted long with therapists because I don't want to bother them and I get really tired of crying. I'd rather just quietly get on with things by myself.
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Aug 17, 2021 15:15
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So, I have a small host of mental issues. ADHD for sure, with accompanying social anxiety or rejection-sensitive dysphoria. I have also not been officially diagnosed, but I have many hallmarks of being on the autism spectrum. I also have anger management issues that are mostly related to my ADHD. If I encounter a delay, need to redo effort in something I had already lost interest in, or have my attention pulled away from a hyperfocus, it builds up until I'm in a screaming rage. This rage could extend to throwing things, but I've built up coping mechanisms mostly related to realizing how expensive the things I want to throw or throw at are. I keep empty plastic bottles around to throw because they don't do any appreciable damage and make a pleasing sound (plus the cats will chase them). I'm also unmedicated for any of these. We tried medication, for a while I was on Ritalin. I lost an unhealthy amount of weight and most of my memories of that time are now locked behind that chemical barrier (state-based memory, it's a lot easier to recall memories when you're in the same neurochemical state they were formed in). I'm getting ahead of myself. In grade school, I was basically the poster child for ADD. I'd occasionally just get up and leave the classroom without telling the teacher (On at least one occasion, this was to go into the bathroom, take all my clothes off, and lie on the floor). I needed a lot of the social contract explained to me because I couldn't pick up on cues from watching other people. We were assigned to read one chapter a day from a book. I came back to the teacher the same day having finished the book and asked for another (I was also reading at a sixth-grade level in first grade, which was a testament to my upbringing). I was shuffled into special ed, and had the benefit of the special ed teacher being very good at her job. She quickly realized I've got an immense amount of intelligence but get distracted easily, so gave me a lot of science toys and experiments and let me play around on these new-fangled computers (Even to the point of being allowed to take one home over the summer). I picked up the computer stuff real easily, and actually got sent around to help the teachers get their computers set up and see if I could get some of the edutainment software to run. As with most IT professionals, this lead to being accused of breaking a computer, and not even one I'd been involved with. I responded with the Code of Hammurabi, which is impressive for a third grader. I was diagnosed and medicated around fourth grade, and was generally able to pass as neurotypical for the rest of grade school (Of course, this was the 80s, that term didn't exist, I just acted mostly normal). The special ed teacher had to hunt me down and make sure I took my meds, because of course I didn't like taking pills or what the Ritalin did to my brain. At the end of sixth grade, my mother and I went on what we called the Big Field Trip, driving around the continental US doing generally touristy stuff with a focus on science and learning (A lot of national parks and museums, not many amusement parks). About three states in, we determined my meds were not only causing extreme weight loss, but depression and suicidal ideation as well. I'm, uh, not sure I ever told her about the suicidal ideation. So we stopped my meds. And I bounced off the walls a little, but the Big Field Trip continued unabated, and whaddaya know, new situations and experiences every day are great when you have ADD. I'd only ever wander off and get into trouble when we were camped somewhere for more than a few days (Notable incidents include climbing a rock formation and getting stranded, coming back to camp with a dead fish in my pocket, and accidentally dropping our (tiny, battery-powered) TV in a lake and our Walkman in a stream). I stopped writing this post here and went off to play video games for a bit because I'd lost focus. High school was a new level of difficulty, because I still had all the brain problems I had in grade school, but now I knew I had brain problems, I was aware of how my actions affected other people even if I wasn't very good at picking up social cues yet. It's at about this point that my social anxiety began developing. My support structure also fell out from under me, because the special ed program had literally two kids in it, and they were both significantly (here I paused for like ten minutes, realizing in mounting horror that all my descriptions and memories of them used the r-word) developmentally disabled. I don't know their exact diagnoses, but one of them couldn't stop drooling and the other seemed... infantile? Is that an acceptable word to describe severe mental disability?  So anyway, I couldn't belong in there because look at me, look at me be normal, look at how normal I am, I am so normal, please excuse me while I climb into trash cans and lockers of my own accord. The school guidance counselor was also not much help because she tended to be busy with the surprisingly high number of kids who were doing actual crimes.After the third time I bit someone because they'd disrupted my hyperfocus, I nearly got classed as "mentally disturbed." I almost went along with it, because I had tuned out the doctor and started looking at his decor. I didn't know at the time what that was supposed to mean, and after googling it to try and link to the diagnosis, I still don't know. Just, kinda generally crazy, I guess? My lack of social cues sort of helped, because when someone would try to bully me, I'd react almost randomly. I might go along with it (One of the bigger bullies spent several minutes hauling me up and down the hallway by sliding my backpack on the floor, and I think either we both enjoyed it or he was frustrated), make some kind of weird sexual joke (I had a reputation as the weird pervert, which made me a certain class of friends, but did not help with the teenage sex drive), or just go absolutely apeshit. No one really wants to get bitten, you know? I've very much lost focus for this post, and it's turning into a struggle to write, but I do want to note that thanks to the way my mind works I've developed a distinctive writing style heavily into parenthetical asides. If I'm wanting to seem more typical, I'll give my posts an editing pass and work those asides into the actual paragraph structure where possible, but I intentionally avoided that here for better exposure.
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Aug 17, 2021 18:11
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Update 43: Equivalent Exchange I pull my door closed, ready for another day of classes.   KENJI: "Sleep well?" Katawa Shoujo OST - Out of the Loop Kenji's sudden arrival makes me jump, and I narrowly avoid butting heads with him. I know he has poor eyesight, but he knows who I am now. Does he still have to stand this close? HISAO: "Oh. Yeah. Like a baby." KENJI: "drat, why do people say that? Have you ever heard a baby sleep? They scream. All night. Every night. Babies don't sleep well, ever." Well, there goes my restful state. I have to remember to never use figures of speech with Kenji. HISAO: "All right, I get your point. It was a figure of speech." KENJI: "Yeah, sure, whatever. Where were you last night? I had a favor to ask but you weren't around." For a split second I consider telling Kenji the truth; that I was spending time with Hanako and Lilly. Thankfully, that split second passes as soon as it came. HISAO: "I was just out. Checking out the local area and stuff. You know, recon." KENJI: "Good man, good. I knew you were the type to plan ahead..." HISAO: "Anyway, what was this favor you wanted?" KENJI: "I was going to get some take-out, but I needed change." HISAO: "Wait, what? I gave you money last week and you still haven't paid me back!" KENJI: "Tch, and I was starting to think you were cool." Kenji fishes around in his pocket and produces his wallet. As he counts out the 400 yen he owes me, I can clearly see at least two 10,000 yen notes. HISAO: "Hey, what the hell? Why are you borrowing money off me when you've got that much cash?" Kenji hisses a little, realizing that he's been had. KENJI: "Get off my case, man. It's bad luck to break a big note for anything less than half its value. It's the tycoon's rule. Last night's dinner is going to cost me seven years of bad luck. Seven years! Don't you think that's enough cause to help someone out? I'd get a shorter sentence if I just stole the stuff." My common sense screams at me to say something to him, but thankfully I restrain myself. Arguing a point like this with Kenji will just lead to further and more complicated discussions. HISAO: "Yeah, I guess you're right. Maybe you should plan these things a little better?" KENJI: "Yeah man, I know. But I've just got so much stuff to do, it's hard. And you're never around any more so I'm on my own. We're supposed to be brothers in brotherhood, remember?" HISAO: "Yeah yeah, I get you. Global conspiracy and such. I'll keep my ear to the ground." Kenji draws close enough for me to get a clear whiff of his garlic-tainted breath. KENJI: "You'd better, man. You're already spending less time here. That's the first thing they do. They'll try to split us up. Divide and conquer. Sun Tzu said that." HISAO: "Roger that. Now, I've got to be going. I've got classes. You coming?" KENJI: "Nah, I'm tired. I stayed up all night just to make sure nothing was going to happen after splitting that note." HISAO: "As rational as ever, I see." KENJI: "Whatever. Night." (Silence) Kenji scurries back into his room, and I hear him throwing his locks as I walk down the hallway. Katawa Shoujo OST - Daylight   MUTOU: "...that is why some people can't roll their tongue, or why their second toe is longer than their big toe." Mutou beams a half-moon smile at us, obviously proud of his explanation of recessive genes. However, no matter how impressed he is at the science that defines who we are, the classroom seems to be reduced to a stupor. Why is it that a bad explanation can make even the most interesting thing seem worthless? I can see Mutou deflate as he realizes that nothing he's said in the past half hour has sunk in. Whispered conversations start to break the silence, and like an avalanche, the noise level in the class starts to rise. Defeated, Mutou identifies some questions from the text book and sets to clearing off the blackboard. Almost as if expected, Hanako packs up her things and leaves as soon as people start talking and laughing among themselves. The initial shock of seeing someone play so blatantly truant has started to fade, but it doesn't stop me from wondering. Is she leaving because she doesn't want people to speak to her? Or is it just the thought of people around her shattering her peace? Before I can think about the topic any further, the lunch bells ring. I wonder if she was simply taking the opportunity to leave early. The usual clamor of students exchanging books for lunch reverberates around the room, and while Misha is distracted, I grab my lunch and head out the door.  Lilly already sits in the tea room, setting out her lunch alone. HISAO: "So, Hanako's not here then?" LILLY: "Oh, Hisao, how are you? I haven't met Hanako since this morning, I'm afraid." That's right, Hanako and Lilly live next to each other. Somehow I think their morning conversations are slightly more grounded than Kenji's ramblings. HISAO: "That's strange. She left class early, so I figured that she'd come here." LILLY: "So she's still leaving class early..." HISAO: "Huh? Yeah, I've seen her do it a few times."  Lilly drops her head a little, and her tone of voice is notably depressed. It's very reminiscent of someone who is used to hearing bad news." LILLY: "I was so sure that she'd stop doing that once you two became friends. Everyone has their own pace, I suppose." HISAO: "Well, I was wondering about just that today. Why exactly does she leave?" LILLY: "I'm not entirely sure myself. I personally think it's because she doesn't want to be put in a situation where she has to answer someone." I have a flashback of my first meeting with her, when I thought she looked like a cornered animal. Maybe I wasn't far from the truth. HISAO: "But she seems fine with talking to you, and with me... a bit..." LILLY: "It's a little more complex than that. I imagine that the first thing most people ask her about is her scars, and what happened. She rarely talks about it with me, but I can tell that she doesn't like to remember whatever happened back then. Leaving class and running away from discussions is her preemptive strike, if you will." HISAO: "Huh... so then how does that explain her talking to me?" LILLY: "You said it yourself yesterday at breakfast; you tried to ignore her scars. Once she saw that you weren't going to ask her about that, she opened herself up to you." HISAO: "Hrm, I guess you're right. Maybe. I dunno. You know her better than I, so I'll take your word for it." Katawa Shoujo OST - School Days LILLY: "I wouldn't worry about that. I'm sure you'll come to know her as well as I do soon enough. I welcome the prospect of her having a new friend, and the two of you have such similar interests..." HISAO: "Well, I hardly count reading as a team sport. It is good to have company, though."  LILLY: "That's my point. Hanako is still an average person at heart. She also wants company at times like that." HISAO: "Huh, I see. I think. To be honest, both of you still confuse me a little." LILLY: "That's only natural, Hisao. We've only known each other for a little while; it's unreasonable to expect you to understand us, just as we can't understand you. But that is half the fun of becoming friends, right?" HISAO: "Yes, yes it is." LILLY: "Although... I suppose there is the matter of us being opposite genders. Men and women do seem to confuse each other quite often." She says this with a light giggle, finding amusement at the odd little details of life. LILLY: "I hope you don't mind, but I'm going to start eating." HISAO: "No, go ahead, I think I'll eat something too. I've got some books I want to drop back at the library before classes start, so I'd better get a move on." LILLY: "You'll probably find Hanako there as well. If you do see her, can you tell her to stop by my room later tonight? I'd like to talk to her." HISAO: "You're not coming?" LILLY: "Unfortunately I have a class representatives' meeting later, so I'll be gone as soon as I've finished my lunch." HISAO: "Okay then, if I don't see her in the library then I'll tell her in class. I'm sure she'll be back after lunch." We fall silent as we start to eat, and I take a second to reflect on our conversation. I've always thought that Hanako's shyness was simply due to her being self-conscious of her scars. But that is a pretty superficial way of looking at her. Just when I thought I was able to see through the fog of Lilly and Hanako, I realize that I'm more lost than when I started. Lilly quickly finishes her lunch, acutely aware of her meeting. I don't blame her. Shizune is most likely going to be there, and I doubt she wants to give her the satisfaction of another argument. LILLY: "I must be off. Same time tomorrow?" HISAO: "Same time, same channel. I'd better head off too; I don't want to risk being late." Lilly smiles gently, picks up her cane and walks out into the hall. (Silence) I turn my back on Lilly as we head in opposite directions. For some reason I find myself hoping she doesn't get into another fight with Shizune. As much as I like Lilly, Shizune and Misha have been pretty instrumental in helping me adjust, even if half of our conversations are thinly-veiled recruitment attempts. Then again, I barely know either of them. Maybe they were previously leaders of some kind of secret society, but their love for each other drove them apart... Man, I need to stop reading cheap fiction. It's rotting my brain. Either that or I've got to move away from Kenji and his bad influence. It's sad that I can't tell the two apart any more. Katawa Shoujo OST - Fripperies  I slide my books down the return chute and they crash into the cart with a pleasant thud. Yuuko, however, doesn't seem as impressed as I. YUUKO: "H-Hisao! You scared me!" HISAO: "Sorry, I thought you would be used to that by now. Or is the literacy level here so low that nobody borrows any books?" YUUKO: "Huh? No I think everyone here can read fine..." HISAO: "Yeah... never mind." There are some battles that you can never win. Trying to explain jokes is one of them. My Dad taught me that the hard way. HISAO: "Say, Yuuko, have you seen Hanako about? She left class early but she wasn't in her usual hiding place." YUUKO: "I think I saw her sneak in before lunch... Oh! But I'm not supposed to tell anyone that!" HISAO: "I just told you that I saw her leave, no need to stress out..." YUUKO: "Oh... of course. She's probably in the back." HISAO: "Thanks. Get any new books in recently?" YUUKO: "No, sorry. I'll let you know when we do, though." HISAO: "Okay." If there's one thing I know about librarians, part-time or otherwise, it's that they appreciate people that take a genuine interest in their work. I walk the now-familiar path to Hanako's reading nook, picking out a few titles along the way. Sometimes I find it hard to discover a book that will interest me among the shelves. An author's name and a two-word title don't mean much in a sea of similar words. For that reason, I sometimes re-read books that I read in the past. Better to bet on the favorite than a new runner. An unfamiliar title from a familiar author peeks out among the spines of its neighbors, so I remove it from the shelf. At least I'm not going over old material.  As expected, Hanako sits on her beanbag, buried deep in a copy of “Dance Dance Dance.” HISAO: "Hi Hanako. How's it going?" I fight back the urge to ask why she left class early. If Lilly's suspicions were right, then asking her about that could have the opposite effect. Best to leave it for the time being. Sometimes the best way to get an answer from someone is to never ask the question.  HANAKO: "Hello, H-Hisao. I'm fine." Something seems off, and after a couple of seconds, I realize what it is. Hanako's smiling. She looks as if she's pleased to see me. It's a nice change from the usual, instinctively frightened reaction, and something I hope I can see more of as we get to know each other better. HISAO: "Good to hear. How's that book? I've heard it's a trip." HANAKO: "I-it's good... I think. I've only j-just started it, so I d-don't really know." HISAO: "Fair enough. Let me know how it goes; I may borrow it once you're done." HANAKO: "S-sure." There's a good fifteen minutes left in lunch. Not enough to really get into a book, but too much to stand around doing nothing. And Hanako's already returned to her reading, so I doubt I'll get much conversation from her. Oh well, I'd better make myself comfortable. I slouch into a beanbag and crack open my book. The familiar style of the author leaps out at me from the very first line. As the sentences turn into paragraphs, I start to relax a little. But no matter how I try, I can't seem to get myself into the atmosphere of the book. This is partly due to the lack of time, but the more distracting factor is Hanako. (Silence) Every ten or so seconds she peers over the top of her book, but when our eyes meet she quickly ducks behind the covers. I guess she did want to talk about something after all. HISAO: "What's up? You look like a prairie dog on lookout." HANAKO: "N-... it's nothing." HISAO: "I've told you before, “nothing” means “something” when you say it like that." Hanako squirms a little in her beanbag, hoping that by changing her position she'll find the words she's looking for.  HANAKO: "I... I was in an accident." HISAO: "Accident? Just now? Are you all right?" Hanako shakes her head, her hair flowing around her shoulders in wisps of amethyst on a background of pale and dark flesh. HANAKO: "N-no. When I was y-younger." Katawa Shoujo OST - Painful History Realization crashes into me like a semi. HANAKO: "When I... when I was..." HISAO: "It's all right Hanako, you don't have to tell me anything if you don't want to..." Again she shakes her head.  HANAKO: "N-no. I want... I have to tell you."  HANAKO: "When I was young... I was in a fire. M-my house b-burned down, and I nearly... I nearly didn't make it."  HANAKO: "A-after that... I was alone..." Hanako's eyes glisten in the dim light of the library, and I reach out to grasp her hand. HISAO: "It's okay, Hanako. You don't have to keep going." HANAKO: "B-but... I have to..." HISAO: "Why? What brought this on?"  HANAKO: "L-Last night Lilly t-told me about your heart... A-and I... I didn't think it was f-fair." HISAO: "Fair?"  HANAKO: "T-that I knew about you b-but you didn't know about me..." I squeeze Hanako's hand a little. HISAO: "Don't be silly. But yes, I have a heart condition." I lean a little closer to Hanako. HISAO: "What I didn't tell Lilly is that I had my first attack when a girl confessed to me." I smile a little to break the tension. HANAKO: "R-really?" HISAO: "Really. I haven't heard from her for a while though, so I guess it's all over." I know it's all over. There's no other way to interpret what happened the last time I saw her. In some ways, not having heard from her again has helped me move on from that period of my life. HISAO: "So now, we both know a little more about each other. But you don't have to talk about things if you don't want to." Katawa Shoujo OST - Painful History (Muffled) In fact, I feel a little bad even thinking about that whole incident. I can almost smell the hospital's disinfectant burning the back of my sinuses again. I imagine Hanako is going through the same thing now. When I was in the hospital I went to the burn ward once, and only once. I was bored, so I went for a walk through all of the wards. I went through oncology and thought I could take it, but when I got to the burn ward I turned around and went back to my bed. To think that Hanako would have spent months in a place like that, smelling nothing but corrupted skin, strong disinfectant and sterilized air. The really bad cases were kept in isolated pods that no foreign objects could enter. That would have meant no reading. I would have gone insane if I didn't have my books in the hospital. And she said she was alone... Did her parents die? I'll have to ask Lilly about it. I can imagine myself saying something dumb unintentionally. (Silence) HANAKO: "T-thank you, Hisao. I... I haven't told many people about this." HISAO: "To be honest, I haven't told many people about my... circumstances either."  HANAKO: "T-then I won't tell a-anyone either." HISAO: "Deal." I change my grip on Hanako's hand into a handshake as the warning bells chime through the window. HISAO: "Well then, we'd better head back to class then, eh?"  HANAKO: "S-sure." END OF ACT 2
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Aug 18, 2021 19:50
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Kind of vaguely related to the topic of screen-readers and other accessibility tools for blind people: I was just contacted by someone asking permission to use some art assets from one of my (very) old Oblivion mods in their own mod - and the thing is, they mention there that they're blind. (Maybe even completely blind?) The tools for modding these games are very complicated even when you can see what you're doing, so wow, I don't know how they managed it. They do mention using some "tweaked adaptive tech programs" to play the game. gegi posted:I don't have an example handy, but one thing I've seen on a lot of really basic intro-level social anxiety websites is an attempt to be "helpful and reassuring" by telling sufferers that no one really notices their symptoms and they aren't nearly as embarrassing as they think they are. You feel like you're blushing a lot, but no one notices, really! Oof - even without something like this, it's hard to make yourself really believe that no-one's noticing your anxiety. That you look like  and not  .I think I remember reading somewhere that that's what makes it an anxiety disorder and not a delusion; you realise intellectually that your fears are at least partially irrational... but probably can't help freaking out anyway. Dareon posted:I'm also unmedicated for any of these. We tried medication, for a while I was on Ritalin. I lost an unhealthy amount of weight and most of my memories of that time are now locked behind that chemical barrier (state-based memory, it's a lot easier to recall memories when you're in the same neurochemical state they were formed in). Huh. I haven't heard of that before. It kind of makes me wonder if I'd get some memories back from that 6-hour blackout if I took a benzodiazepine again. ... Probably not - and there's no way I'd try, anyway.
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Aug 19, 2021 09:15
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thank you for the effort posts. i'm not really self-aware enough to offer a useful point of view of my own, but i at least have an inkling of what you're talking about in my own experiences!
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Aug 19, 2021 10:21
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Antistar01 posted:I think I remember reading somewhere that that's what makes it an anxiety disorder and not a delusion; you realise intellectually that your fears are at least partially irrational... but probably can't help freaking out anyway. Dunno, I've got some definite social anxiety issues alongside depression (which has a bunch of likely sources including genetic), and I pretty much tie that to hyper-aggressive bullying through most of my childhood. Kind of hard to call fear of rejection irrational when "everybody hates and wants to hurt you or doesn't care enough to do anything to stop the people attacking you" was literal fact for my development. Hard to say how much social anxiety I actually have vs just plain depression though; I certainly have issues with picking up the phone to call a stranger and don't have a lot of deep relationships outside family, but my job involves quite a bit of interaction with strangers in a customer service setting, including lots of "fix problem" scenarios where the customer is very angry and quite happy to take it out on me, and while I can be frustrated and tired after doing it I can't call it an absolute horror to deal with. My best guess was likening it to jumping into cold water, deeply unpleasant but if I do it enough I kind of numb up to the discomfort eventually. Treatment-wise I've done cognitive behavioral therapy which had some definite benefits thankfully, and some meds which helped for a while but it seems like my body kept building up a tolerance for them (going off didn't cause much issue besides sleep disruption for a bit, which I swear almost any drat thing does anyway), but not doing any specific treatment at moment. Also I'm wondering now that I recently got a sleep apnea diagnosis how much that might be tying into things. Not having restful sleep (I had a power failure a few days ago in the night so no CPAP that evening, the sudden reversion to "normal" sleep was jarring in how tired I felt after) and the symptoms of apnea being pretty similar to being hyper-anxious every night (adrenaline surge, racing heart, restlessness, etc.) make me wonder if the physical symptoms were feeding into the mental troubles. My worst mental moments have often been right before trying to sleep when bad thoughts hit, I wonder if I was primed for that with my body being stressed out every night?
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Aug 19, 2021 20:08
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Update 44: Invitation Man, this route’s paced a lot slower than Emi’s is, isn’t it? The two of them had already made out by the end of Act 2, and here Hisao has yet to consciously admit he’s attracted to Hanako. “Well, duh,” I can hear you say. “It only makes sense that she’d enter a relationship way earlier. Emi’s a lot more confident and outgoing then Hanako.” It WOULD make sense, if the first part was true. Each route in KS is structured slightly differently: Emi’s route fits the bulk of its story in the second and third acts and uses the fourth for the climax, while Hanako’s is spread out roughly equally between all three. At this point in Emi’s route, Hisao had just learned she caught a cold from the run in the rain and was about to head for her room – he knew he was attracted to her, yeah, but he hadn’t acted on it yet. They were still in the “unresolved tension” phase of their relationship. Emi did move faster than Hanako. She is Emi. Just remember the size of the gap is an illusion. (Silence) The tint of the room slowly changes from the shine of the afternoon to the orange of dusk. A clock lazily ticks away the seconds, counting in the background, on the verge of hearing. But no matter how long I wait, the outcome cannot be changed. The diminutive playing piece makes a small click against the board. Like a wound spring, Hanako makes her move only moments after mine. It's embarrassing. In comparison to my five-minute moves, she seems to know exactly what she wants to do. Katawa Shoujo OST - Afternoon  HANAKO: "Mate." HISAO: "Again... What does that make this? 3-2?" HANAKO: "S-stalemates don't count." HISAO: "drat. You're getting better at this every day." That, or she's been holding back. I'd never have thought it when I first met her, but she really has a knack for this game. Chess seems to have become a popular pastime for the two of us; hiding away in the tea room, playing a game or two after classes. From here, the students outside can just barely be heard milling about. The everyday noises from below remind me a little of my life before Yamaku, though I'm by now well aware that it's a life I'll never get back to. HISAO: "Fancy another game?" HANAKO: "I... I have to finish my homework..." HISAO: "Oh. Well, I'll see you tomorrow then." HANAKO: "But... what about this..." Hanako points to the tea set surrounding the mostly-empty chess board. HISAO: "Don't worry about that, I've got it." HANAKO: "Oh... okay... S-see you." HISAO: "Later." Hanako departs as I start cleaning up the area. The occasional whistles and cheers from the sporting clubs outside become less frequent, eventually approaching silence. A part of me still wants to be in some kind of team. Since I played soccer and other sports before my accident, I guess it's only normal to feel nostalgic about what I can't do any more. But I have other reasons than that for my coming here so often, and I don't feel so bad about losing that part of myself because of them. Lilly is a good friend by now, but it's the small exchanges I have with Hanako that feel especially dear. The small victories I feel every day as I see more of what she's like under her self-imposed shell. That's why I come here most of all. As I'm putting away cups and saucers, I hear talking outside the door. Pausing for a moment to listen, I can make out that it's Hanako and Lilly, and decide to go outside to investigate.  LILLY: "Are you quite sure?" HANAKO: "I... I'm sure... Ah, Hisao." Hanako turns to see me with a look of mild surprise as she notices my approach. Lilly must've caught her just as she was about to leave. LILLY: "Oh my, Hisao is here as well?" HISAO: "'Afternoon, Lilly. What's up?"  LILLY: "I was hoping, now that I've finished with my class representative duties for the day, that I might have the two of you accompany me for tea at the Shanghai. It would be nice to enjoy ourselves outside of the school, for a change." HISAO: "I'd be up for it. I think Hanako had work to do, though...?" HANAKO: "I-it's... not all that much..." LILLY: "Wonderful. It seems that we're decided, then." (Silence, Muted Crowd Sounds)  I cast my eyes across the café as the three of us step in. As usual, there are only a handful of people around at most, and the noise level is a quiet background hum. The hold Lilly has on Hanako's arm remains just as it has been for the entire slow walk down the hill to the local town, though it's hard to say for which reason - for Lilly's guidance, or for Hanako's reassurance. Katawa Shoujo OST - Raindrops and Puddles For a moment, Lilly removes her arm from Hanako's to retract her cane as Yuuko quickly skitters over to where we stand, but soon replaces it right back where it had been.  YUUKO: "Welcome to the Shanghai! May I take your order?" She gives a deep bow, her well-delivered and professional introduction putting her in a good mood. It's a nice change from the norm for Yuuko. LILLY: "Just tea, please. Hanako, Hisao?" HISAO: "I'll have a slice of pie and a coffee." HANAKO: "Just... t-tea... please." YUUKO: "Coming right up. Please take any seat you wish, and I'll be back shortly." Yuuko gives a smile and a nod before shuffling to the counter, and we make our way to some empty seats by the window in quick measure. We slip into our seats, the girls on one side with Lilly's cane propped up beside them and I on the other. I realize that Hanako's not doing something that she so often does.  Rather than keeping her eyes pinned to the ground and hiding behind her blind escort, busily trying to convince herself that the world around them doesn't exist, she's merely keeping her eyes low and helping Lilly around. HISAO: "Are you okay, Lilly? You look tired." She lowers her head a little, looking somewhat embarrassed that she let it show. LILLY: "Class representative work can be very tiring, considering that it often means dealing with the Student Council. Very tiring indeed." HANAKO: "How... do the other representatives go?" LILLY: "Better than I, but not by much. Shizune is a harsh taskmaster no matter whom she deals with." HISAO: "It doesn't sound like you particularly relish the job. Why do you do it in the first place, if it's that bad?" LILLY: "Being a class representative is enjoyable, and I can deal with the responsibility well enough. It's just that the people involved are sometimes..." She trails off, cutting her words at a rather opportune spot. It's hard to imagine Lilly cursing, but I imagine that if anyone could make her do so, it would be Shizune. Hanako looks to be withering a bit in the light of such conflict, but before I can steer the topic away a little, she stands up. LILLY: "Hanako?"  HANAKO: "I'll... be back in a bit." With that, she leaves for the restrooms. I suppose that's one way to deal with the situation, if that was indeed her motivation. Lilly, however, looks a little wounded. HISAO: "Don't worry about it. I don't think it was you." LILLY: "But..." HISAO: "I think she's been getting stronger recently. You've seen it yourself... right...?" That went a bit awry. Fortunately Lilly doesn't look offended, and by now I really shouldn't be quite so scared of stepping on that landmine around her. LILLY: "Possibly. Sometimes... I find it hard to tell, though." Silence reigns for a moment before two teacups, a pie, and a mug of steaming coffee appear in front of us. I notice that Yuuko takes special care to place the teacup against the tip of Lilly's fingers, letting her know where it is. YUUKO: "Here you go." HISAO: "Thanks, Yuuko." LILLY: "Thank you." With a quick and silent bow, the bespectacled waitress takes her leave. LILLY: "Ah, that's right. I was meaning to ask you something, and now would be the right time to do so." HISAO: "I'm all ears."  LILLY: "Hanako's birthday is coming up, and I was hoping that you might accompany me for present shopping in the city this weekend." Hanako's birthday is soon? I suppose it would be a nice chance to cheer her up a bit. Like Yuuko, she always seems to be teetering on the edge of either panic or depression, and I've never seen her enjoy herself much outside of our chess games. All that aside, learning the layout of the city better with a friend keeping me company sounds like a good way to spend a weekend. HISAO: "Sure, I'd be happy to. Have you got any plans for what to do for her birthday? A party or anything?" LILLY: "Hanako being Hanako, perhaps a low-key affair would be—" Lilly suddenly cuts herself short, leaving me to wonder why as she brings her teacup to her lips and begins to sip. After a few seconds, I notice Hanako walking up to us over her shoulder. Lilly's hearing must be very good indeed if it was the sound of the restroom door opening that tipped her off. Hanako takes her seat once again, and wastes no time in drinking her tea. Soon the three of us are quietly eating and drinking as the sun sets. It's a nice way to spend the remainder of the day's light, and it makes me appreciate the quiet and serene surroundings of Yamaku. I think I'm really beginning to like life here, as isolated as it may be.  I finish off the last of my coffee and rest the mug on the table while the girls talk between themselves. The coffee here's a little bitter for my tastes, but still quite good. Better than what I can make for myself, in any case. The girls' discussion is mainly focused on their respective reading preferences, which does give me a little curiosity about a related topic. HISAO: "Hey Hanako, I was just wondering... aside from chess and reading, do you have any hobbies or things you like doing?" She's completely stopped in her tracks, looking quite surprised that anyone would be interested in asking such a question about her. It takes her a little time to formulate a response. HANAKO: "Um... I guess... I like singing a l-little. I'm okay with c-computers as well, but I... don't use them all that much." Singing's not exactly something I expected to hear. It's hard to imagine her singing voice, given how soft-spoken she is. Lilly, on the other hand, simply nods. She must already know all this, since she's been friends with Hanako for one year or so by now. HANAKO: "W-what about... y-y..." HISAO: "Me?" She hesitates before quickly flicking her head up and down. It's only logical that she'd want me to talk about my hobbies after she's told me hers. HISAO: "There's chess, obviously, but also... hmm... There was soccer as well, though I can't really do that any more. Reading, which I picked up in hospital... um..." This is surprisingly hard. Lilly and Hanako look a little put off by the direction this is taking, and the more I think about it, the more I am too. LILLY: "It sounds as if you've picked up quite a few things since your accident." Lilly's candor is coated with probably the most positive spin one could put on what I said. Hanako, however, is silent. If a situation becomes difficult, her reaction always seems to be withdrawing into silence, in order to prevent things getting worse. That, or physically retreating.  A soft ringing gives us pause. As Lilly reaches into her pocket, it becomes obvious that the sound's coming from her phone. LILLY: "Sorry..." HANAKO: "I-it's okay..." Lilly gives a quick nod before shuffling out of her seat and taking the call a little distance away, to avoid disturbing the both of us. HISAO: "Must be nice to be popular." Hanako smiles, but doesn't take up the hook for further discussion. I end up just sitting back and closing my eyes, relaxing as best I can. HISAO: "It's nice and peaceful here. I wonder what it'd be like to have grown up somewhere like this, rather than in the city." HANAKO: "Y-you come from the city?" Looks like I've found something she wants to talk about. HISAO: "Yeah. You could say I was a city kid through and through." HANAKO: "I-it sounds like a lot changed..." HISAO: "It did. I'm still not quite sure what to make of it all, though. It's a bit of a culture shock, in more ways than one. You must've gone through something like this when you first arrived at Yamaku, right? I'd imagine most new students would." HANAKO: "N-not really..." Hanako gazes a little to the side, looking unwilling to go on. I tilt my head inquisitively, but a couple of seconds pass with no further answer.  LILLY: "But can't we deal with that on Monday? The fallout has hardly settled from the last...” (Silence) LILLY: “I understand. I'll try to talk her down. You know what she's like when she gets locked onto an idea. Yes, thank you. I'll talk to you later, then. Goodbye." Lilly's conversation ends with the snap of her phone closing. She returns to our table, but doesn't take her seat. HISAO: "Need to go?" LILLY: "Unfortunately. Class representative work calls once again." HANAKO: "I-I can come with you." LILLY: "It's all right, Hanako. I'll just be going straight to the Student Council. There's no need to spoil a fine evening on my account. Besides, if you were to accompany me on my way back to the school, who would keep our poor Hisao company?" HANAKO: "Okay..." LILLY: "I can join you for tea again later tonight, if you'd like. I may well need it." We agree on that plan, and Lilly says her farewells to the both of us, taking her cane after Hanako passes it to her. Despite my offer to pay for Lilly's share, she insists on giving us her portion of the bill, and gives her regards to Yuuko as she takes her leave. Katawa Shoujo OST - Raindrops and Puddles  And then... we're alone. It may be all well and good to leave Hanako and I alone to have some time together, but all it typically means is the two of us sitting near each other in silence for a while. I wonder what I must look like to Hanako. I never thought of myself as a scary person, but to have someone my own age acting this way around me makes me intensely self-aware, as if it's my fault that she's so troubled. She might get more used to people if she were to stop being so cloistered in Yamaku, but then again... when even people much older than her react so strongly after a single glance at her face, she may well feel the same way I do now. It's a real catch-22. If she stays in Yamaku, she won't get used to socializing, but if she leaves, any efforts she might try would get thrown back at her by the people who can't deal with her scarring. HISAO: "Want to order something else to keep us going? We haven't had much of a dinner, after all." Hanako brightens and nods vigorously, glad that I brought up the topic for her. I catch Yuuko's gaze, and she dutifully comes over to take our orders. YUUKO: "Would you like something else?" HISAO: "I'll just have a sandwich special and a hot chocolate. Bit late for coffee by now. Hanako?" HANAKO: "I-I'll... have the same..." With a nod and a bow, Yuuko turns on the ball of her foot and returns behind the counter, where she busies herself fishing out bread and condiments and working the machine to make our drinks. Not a word is said between us until Yuuko comes back. She smiles and gives us our food and drinks, before moving to a customer who's called for her attention. I give up on the prospect of having much of a conversation with my companion and decide to just enjoy the meal, small as it may be. It tastes nice, as does most of the food here. After having a few mouthfuls, I notice something's missing. Namely, the sound of Hanako eating. Looking back to her, I see Hanako fidgeting a little behind her untouched sandwich. HISAO: "Not hungry?" She shakes her head from side to side. Even as she does, the patch of hair she keeps over the right side of her face still does its job in hiding it almost entirely. HANAKO: "I-it's not that." HISAO: "Aw. I was all ready to have your share, too." HANAKO: "You looked... t-troubled. I-is something... w-wrong?" I'm startled by her thinking that I'm the one who looks troubled, but on second thought, she's probably right. My face may have given away my emotions without me noticing, and she's hardly a dim person; quite the opposite. HISAO: "We're friends, right?" HANAKO: "Friends..." From the tone of her voice and shrinking posture, it looks as though I've hit yet another landmine. This is another reason why interacting with her is difficult; the self-imposed psychological barriers she puts up between herself and others, including me and, most likely, even Lilly. It's a shame that—  HANAKO: "I-I think th-that we are..." I'm a little taken off guard by Hanako's straightforward answer, all the more so since I was about to give up on getting any reply at all. HISAO: "I see..." HANAKO: "A-am I wrong? S-sorry, I-I..." HISAO: "No, it's just... hearing confirmation of that from you is reassuring. To pick up on what you said earlier: since coming to Yamaku, I've been a bit uneasy about how I should relate with others." I find myself chuckling a little. It's surprising how much of a relief that was. I can feel my face smiling as I pick up my cup of hot chocolate and bring it to my lips. HISAO: "Ouch! That's hot..."  HANAKO: "Th-that's why... That's why I haven't eaten yet. I-I was waiting... for my drink to cool down first.” HISAO: "I guess I'll wait, then." The both of us share a little chuckle. The situation isn't really that funny, but for some reason... it feels like laughing is the most natural thing to do right now. I guess we were both a bit wound up about each other. I was so busy thinking Hanako was the one with something wrong, it took her to remind me that I was uneasy as well. But be that as it may... it still feels a little nice. A little nice to have someone thinking about me like that, in her own way. (Silence)  Following a long, quiet trudge up the hill and into the school grounds, the two of us find ourselves between the two dormitories. Regular night patrols pass between the male and female dormitory buildings, both for security and to quickly raise the alarm for any medical issues that may arise. The guard currently on duty notices us and gives a quick nod as he continues on his way. A loud yawn escapes from Hanako's mouth before she has a chance to cover it. I have little doubt she's fairly tired by now. HISAO: "I'd better be off to my room, then. See you tomorrow, Hanako." HANAKO: "G-good night..." We separate and begin to walk our separate ways, before I stop and look back. Hanako stands there, waving to me as she smiles. I smile and wave back to her, and after a few seconds, she turns and walks up the stairs to her dormitory building, disappearing through the door. These little moments we share between us feel like a small treasure. One thing is sure; I want to protect that small, delicate smile she so fleetingly wears around so few people. I wonder about these feelings I have when Hanako's around, and when I'm able to do things for her... whether they may be the seed for something beyond what we share now.
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Aug 20, 2021 20:04
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If someone told me that this game isn't about fetishizing disabled people then showed me this route, I probably wouldn't believe them. The constant descriptions of how timid, jumpy etc. is Hanako read 100% like weird fetish copy except with anxiety replacing feet. It was really bad in the first act. I get how it works with her character arc but it is really offputting to see it so frequently, that kind of one-note thing is better reserved for gag characters.
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Aug 21, 2021 14:47
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Decoy Badger posted:If someone told me that this game isn't about fetishizing disabled people then showed me this route, I probably wouldn't believe them. The constant descriptions of how timid, jumpy etc. is Hanako read 100% like weird fetish copy except with anxiety replacing feet. It was really bad in the first act. This is a bit off-base, and while the explanation probably isn't a spoiler, per se, I'm putting it in tags just because it might color people's perception of the route in a way that might lead to them guessing future developments and being spoiled indirectly. The problem isn't Hanako, it's Hisao. All those descriptions are from Hisao's subjective point of view. Hanako has shown off several facets of her personality so far, but he's been so focused on the most obvious one, her anxiety, that he's just kinda bulldozed past everything else in his narration, leaving the player to figure things out for themselves as they go. For example, she's fairly competitive, and is clearly fired up about improving her chess skills now that someone's finally offering her a real challenge. To read a little further between the lines, this also indicates she's not the type of competitive that's happy to crush weaker opponents or people who aren't all that invested (the way Shizune is), but rather competes specifically for the sake of improving and then testing her skills. Just because someone's outwardly timid, doesn't mean they're not passionate about some things.
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Aug 21, 2021 15:43
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I've been kind of floored that Hisao feels like he is building something with Hanako that is as believable as with Emi without compromising either his personality or his major arcs. Most romance stories I know try to sell the idea that a person has one other person they can fall in love with, but this feels like a really good display of how flexible a person's romantic chemistry can be.
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Aug 21, 2021 16:25
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Tulip posted:I've been kind of floored that Hisao feels like he is building something with Hanako that is as believable as with Emi without compromising either his personality or his major arcs. Most romance stories I know try to sell the idea that a person has one other person they can fall in love with, but this feels like a really good display of how flexible a person's romantic chemistry can be. Like I think I mentioned earlier, a lot of the routes to me feel more like Hisao choosing who he wants to be (with different conclusions each time) and just happening to get together with a girl that matches that person in the process. The Hanako-route Hisao feels a lot less energetic than the Emi-route one (no surprise considering the difference in exercise, though I appreciate he's getting a lot of walking in this route still) and he's less of an open smartass, but they both come from the same basic starting point and just happened to grow differently. I wonder how much of that is the different writers for each route (all seeing Hisao differently) and how much of that is deliberate, but I like how the different choices wind up generating a different main character, not just which waifu you happen to hook up with.
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Aug 21, 2021 19:52
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Antistar01 posted:I think I remember reading somewhere that that's what makes it an anxiety disorder and not a delusion; you realise intellectually that your fears are at least partially irrational... but probably can't help freaking out anyway. MadDogMike posted:Dunno, I've got some definite social anxiety issues alongside depression (which has a bunch of likely sources including genetic), and I pretty much tie that to hyper-aggressive bullying through most of my childhood. Kind of hard to call fear of rejection irrational when "everybody hates and wants to hurt you or doesn't care enough to do anything to stop the people attacking you" was literal fact for my development. Hard to say how much social anxiety I actually have vs just plain depression though; I certainly have issues with picking up the phone to call a stranger and don't have a lot of deep relationships outside family, but my job involves quite a bit of interaction with strangers in a customer service setting, including lots of "fix problem" scenarios where the customer is very angry and quite happy to take it out on me, and while I can be frustrated and tired after doing it I can't call it an absolute horror to deal with. My best guess was likening it to jumping into cold water, deeply unpleasant but if I do it enough I kind of numb up to the discomfort eventually. Treatment-wise I've done cognitive behavioral therapy which had some definite benefits thankfully, and some meds which helped for a while but it seems like my body kept building up a tolerance for them (going off didn't cause much issue besides sleep disruption for a bit, which I swear almost any drat thing does anyway), but not doing any specific treatment at moment. Also I'm wondering now that I recently got a sleep apnea diagnosis how much that might be tying into things. Not having restful sleep (I had a power failure a few days ago in the night so no CPAP that evening, the sudden reversion to "normal" sleep was jarring in how tired I felt after) and the symptoms of apnea being pretty similar to being hyper-anxious every night (adrenaline surge, racing heart, restlessness, etc.) make me wonder if the physical symptoms were feeding into the mental troubles. My worst mental moments have often been right before trying to sleep when bad thoughts hit, I wonder if I was primed for that with my body being stressed out every night? I can imagine (but obviously can't say with authority) that the psychiatrist/psychologist-style response to that would be to say that the fact you can identify something like bullying as a probable cause or exacerbating factor for your anxiety suggests that you understand that it's irrational - as opposed to thinking that everyone is always out to get you all the time, just as a matter of course. It's tempting to call that a smart-arse response, though. Basically I'm right there with you on that; it's hard to untangle these things.I wouldn't know about the sleep apnoea thing, but the feedback loop of anxiety prompting physical symptoms which then increase anxiety, and so on - is something I've had psychologists mention a number of times. So maybe? I know that most of my life has been underscored by low-key chest pain because (I'm told) I'm technically hyperventilating all the time due to anxiety. Decoy Badger posted:If someone told me that this game isn't about fetishizing disabled people then showed me this route, I probably wouldn't believe them. The constant descriptions of how timid, jumpy etc. is Hanako read 100% like weird fetish copy except with anxiety replacing feet. It was really bad in the first act. I feel like I have a hard time being objective when it comes to Hanako since I identify with her so hard, but I think EclecticTastes has a good point there about what's going on with the writing so far in Hanako's route. Maybe social anxiety is difficult to write, especially when it's being described from the outside - from an observer's point of view? I mean... I made a mod for Skyrim called Clockwork, which on the surface is a ghost story, but I actually wrote to "secretly" be about social anxiety disorder. One of the things I was interested in doing with it was - beyond all the symbolism and themes and whatnot pointing to it - trying to write characters that suffer from social anxiety and/or depression without coming right out and saying "they're like this because they have the depression". Or saying "the theme is social anxiety". And then I wanted to see if anyone playing the mod would notice what it's about. (What it's about from my point of view, at least. I know; death of the author, and all that.) The thing is, I was worried I was being really on the nose with it, but hundreds of thousands of people have played Clockwork, and no-one ever noticed. Or at least they never mentioned it, if they did. A number of people have said "oh, it's about loneliness" - which is true, but not the whole story. This was kind of a meta thing for me; I actually resolved to not reveal all this until/unless someone noticed it - this is the first time I've mentioned it publicly - but whatever, it's been years now. So maybe it helps to be kind of blatant to ensure that people even notice that "oh, it's not that this character is being rude and abrupt; it's social anxiety". Maybe?
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Aug 22, 2021 07:48
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Something that I keep coming back to is that Hisao and Hanako getting together isn't really believable to me, based on what I think governs attraction. Attraction in major part is based on similar childhood experiences, and Hisao and Hanako simply don't have that.
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Aug 22, 2021 09:05
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Dance Officer posted:Something that I keep coming back to is that Hisao and Hanako getting together isn't really believable to me, based on what I think governs attraction. Attraction in major part is based on similar childhood experiences, and Hisao and Hanako simply don't have that. I... I don't know. That feels kind of simplistic to me. I know personally I'm attracted to people based on their personality, despite the people I've eventually bonded with having quite different childhoods than me. And that's not getting into attraction based on one's appearance. Could you go into more detail about where your theory's from?
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Aug 22, 2021 09:20
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Dance Officer posted:Something that I keep coming back to is that Hisao and Hanako getting together isn't really believable to me, based on what I think governs attraction. Attraction in major part is based on similar childhood experiences, and Hisao and Hanako simply don't have that. Gotta admit, it would be hard to find anyone who was raised by psychic hippy holdovers in the middle of nowhere to personally test your hypothesis. But I have become attracted to a few people, most of them at the time because I'd identified them as broken and wanted to help them. Which, uh, after the fallout, I identified as a really unhealthy basis for a relationship. So at least it was an opportunity for growth. As it stands, I think my sexuality can be classed as either sapioromantic demisexual or the other way around: I'm attracted to intelligence, but it takes a long time of knowing someone before I begin feeling attraction. So I'm not gonna be too helpful in this discussion.
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Aug 22, 2021 09:51
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Dance Officer posted:Something that I keep coming back to is that Hisao and Hanako getting together isn't really believable to me, based on what I think governs attraction. Attraction in major part is based on similar childhood experiences, and Hisao and Hanako simply don't have that. The dubiousness of this reasoning aside, this isn't correct, from a factual standpoint. They both suffered life-changing incidents leading to extended hospital stays, and that's the only part I can say explicitly without spoiling anything. Everyone seems to think they know everything about Hanako when we're not even halfway through her route, so the one thing I can say is that conclusions are being drawn based on wildly insufficient information. Like, Hisao hasn't even expressed attraction to Hanako yet, let's at least wait for them to actually become a couple before declaring the relationship not believable.
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Aug 22, 2021 09:57
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I read a book by Robin Skynner who argued pretty convincingly that much of attraction is based on shared experiences of childhood. It certainly explains to me why I get along with so many people who have ADHD, why most of my friends have also had lovely childhoods, and same for all my girlfriends. EclecticTastes posted:The dubiousness of this reasoning aside, this isn't correct, from a factual standpoint. They both suffered life-changing incidents leading to extended hospital stays, and that's the only part I can say explicitly without spoiling anything. Everyone seems to think they know everything about Hanako when we're not even halfway through her route, so the one thing I can say is that conclusions are being drawn based on wildly insufficient information. Like, Hisao hasn't even expressed attraction to Hanako yet, let's at least wait for them to actually become a couple before declaring the relationship not believable. Let me head this off by saying I'm going into this blind. Hanako's life-changing event was obviously when she was a lot younger, the game's foreshadowed that pretty well. My current hypothesis is that she lost her parents in the fire that disfigured her, that her disfigurement and her trauma left her isolated and probably bullied, and that's why she's so cautious around people. There might also be the issue of pain from her burns Hisao's is so fresh that he spends a chunk of the story in the grief process. Dance Officer fucked around with this message at 10:25 on Aug 22, 2021 |
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Aug 22, 2021 09:59
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Dance Officer posted:When I was in college they did an experiment where people who hadn't met eachother before were asked to group up. When the groups were formed, they were asked to find out the common link. The common link in my crowd was that most of us had had lovely childhoods, had dealt with feeling like outsiders, etc. It was remarkable how consistent it was. Yes, when people first meet, it's very common to bond over shared interests and/or experiences, and even in college, students often continue gravitating toward whatever social group they felt the most affinity with growing up. This, however, in no way indicated romantic compatibility. Did this study in any way track the formation and progress of long-term relationships among your group? I also have questions regarding sample size, possibility of selection bias, and experimental conditions. Was the experiment ever published, peer reviewed, and/or replicated elsewhere? Because right now, it sounds like the experiment can be best summed up as "some strangers were asked to talk to each other and the people they trusted most quickly were the ones that felt most similar to themselves" which isn't so much groundbreaking social science as it is one of the most basic possible observations of human interaction. Everyone feels more comfortable with strangers when they perceive them as being similar to however they identify themselves, but romantic love requires more than just surface-level observations like "we both had rough childhoods". Not that such commonalities can't help break the ice, or serve as building blocks in a relationship, but the real key to lasting romantic attraction is having compatible (usually complementary) personality traits, and that's not something that's easily predicted or analyzed in broad terms, as there's so much nuance to each individual.
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Aug 22, 2021 10:34
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Antistar01 posted:I mean... I made a mod for Skyrim called Clockwork, which on the surface is a ghost story, but I actually wrote to "secretly" be about social anxiety disorder. What an interesting coincidence! I've played partway through this mod in my Skyrim VR setup, and I'll tell you the lead-in dungeon freaked me out and unsettled me more than I've been in a long time. I'm only as far as restoring the steam system, so I haven't seen the whole story. I connected the themes more to dementia, myself, but that's likely because I've taken care of a relative who suffered from that, whereas I don't have social anxiety. I only manage to play a couple hours a week, but I hope to get further in the mod some time. Perhaps I'll notice more of the themes, having heard your intentions.
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Aug 22, 2021 10:59
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Dance Officer posted:I read a book by Robin Skynner who argued pretty convincingly that much of attraction is based on shared experiences of childhood. It certainly explains to me why I get along with so many people who have ADHD, why most of my friends have also had lovely childhoods, and same for all my girlfriends. Ah, I missed your edit in my reply. I assume you're referring to either Families and How to Survive Them, or One Flesh - Separate Persons, the work upon which the former is based. Skynner's methodology has been criticized by a number of sources (sadly, little beyond excerpts are available for public viewing due to the paywall surrounding pretty much all academic journals, but you can find a healthy chunk of the British Journal of Social Work's review in their free preview) for (and forgive me for paraphrasing) applying the social dynamics used in group therapy sessions to other groups without providing evidence that doing so is appropriate, among other criticisms that are tangential to the current discussion.
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Aug 22, 2021 11:02
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