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Ugh, my crosscut sled is nearing completion and I cut the zero clearance slot. I measured it at .124 in which would be great except I have a thin kerf blade with a width of .098 in, so the runout is about .02 inches which seems quite bad and could lead to weird cut issues? I’ve confirmed it by spinning the blade with a caliper depth gauge - and it’s not the blade, it’s happening on multiple expensive blades. This is a new Bosch 4100 saw and I’m struggling to figure out what the problem is. I’ve cleaned and reseated the arbor flange, outer flange and nut. I tried some very light sanding in case there was a burr. Still happening. Am I right that this isn’t a parallel to the miter slot issue, seeing as the distance changes back and forth as the blade spins? It seems like parallel issues would mean a consistent caliper reading since it would be at a constant angle to the miter slot. I don’t think I’m overthinking this - it seems like something in the range of 5 thou would be nothing to worry about but this thin kerf blade is making a kerf like it’s a regular 1/8 blade and that doesn’t seem correct. Any ideas?
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Aug 13, 2021 22:04
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Stultus Maximus posted:Speaking of screws, does anyone know where to get good vintage style slotted screws? Restoring a 100+ year old house looks like poo poo if you use anything modern. Hah, and these children think Phillips are harsh. You might have some turn up at Habitat or Restore or if there's a vintage type fixtures place that's survived pandemic economy in your area.....
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Aug 13, 2021 22:28
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https://www.mcmaster.com/slotted-screws/
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Aug 13, 2021 22:35
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Enderzero posted:Ugh, my crosscut sled is nearing completion and I cut the zero clearance slot. I measured it at .124 in which would be great except I have a thin kerf blade with a width of .098 in, so the runout is about .02 inches which seems quite bad and could lead to weird cut issues? I’ve confirmed it by spinning the blade with a caliper depth gauge - and it’s not the blade, it’s happening on multiple expensive blades. This is a new Bosch 4100 saw and I’m struggling to figure out what the problem is. I’ve cleaned and reseated the arbor flange, outer flange and nut. I tried some very light sanding in case there was a burr. Still happening. Am I right that this isn’t a parallel to the miter slot issue, seeing as the distance changes back and forth as the blade spins? It seems like parallel issues would mean a consistent caliper reading since it would be at a constant angle to the miter slot. I don’t think I’m overthinking this - it seems like something in the range of 5 thou would be nothing to worry about but this thin kerf blade is making a kerf like it’s a regular 1/8 blade and that doesn’t seem correct. Any ideas? Wowzer, that's really bad. Are you using a pincher style micrometer or a dial indicator? I built a little jig with a runner that fits in the miter slot that my dial indicator attaches to. Forrest blade and sawstop, I have it within 0.001" (according to my harbor freight dial, which lol but it's repeatable).
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Aug 14, 2021 00:11
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Stultus Maximus posted:Speaking of screws, does anyone know where to get good vintage style slotted screws? Restoring a 100+ year old house looks like poo poo if you use anything modern. I've been happy with stuff from Blacksmith Bolt https://www.blacksmithbolt.com/
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Aug 14, 2021 01:34
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Stultus Maximus posted:Speaking of screws, does anyone know where to get good vintage style slotted screws? Restoring a 100+ year old house looks like poo poo if you use anything modern. In addition to the above Lee Valley Tools also sells some things like that. Especially brass slotted screws And these https://www.leevalley.com/en-ca/shop/hardware/fasteners/screws/wood-screws/46571-pyramid-head-screws
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Aug 14, 2021 01:40
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NomNomNom posted:Wowzer, that's really bad. Are you using a pincher style micrometer or a dial indicator? Neither! I locked a feather board in and then was holding my calipers against it, with the thin depth gauge stick end taking measurements. Not the most accurate, but enough so that I know there’s a problem, especially since the max and min range measured on the calipers are close to the measured kerf width. I did get a dial indicator this afternoon to make further measurements easier but at this point I don’t even know what to try next, everything looks good but it’s not.
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Aug 14, 2021 01:42
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Stultus Maximus posted:Speaking of screws, does anyone know where to get good vintage style slotted screws? Restoring a 100+ year old house looks like poo poo if you use anything modern. Killian Hardware carries some vintage-y screws. Edit: Specifically, I've seen them in the stop bead adjuster section, dunno where else they are on the weird website: https://kilianhardware.com/stopbeadad.html You can also call them and they might have additional options of other sizes. Danhenge fucked around with this message at 02:23 on Aug 14, 2021 |
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Aug 14, 2021 02:20
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Stultus Maximus posted:Speaking of screws, does anyone know where to get good vintage style slotted screws? Restoring a 100+ year old house looks like poo poo if you use anything modern. I’ve mostly used them for marine stainless fasteners but bolt depot has been great. Very knowledgeable and ship fast and will sell you 1 screw or 3000. They have a lot of brass stuff. https://www.boltdepot.com/Wood_screws.aspx My small independent local hardware store also has a good selection of steel/zinc slotted screws-less so for brass. The big box stores aren’t great for that, as you have no doubt discovered.
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Aug 14, 2021 04:42
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Enderzero posted:Neither! I locked a feather board in and then was holding my calipers against it, with the thin depth gauge stick end taking measurements. Not the most accurate, but enough so that I know there’s a problem, especially since the max and min range measured on the calipers are close to the measured kerf width. I did get a dial indicator this afternoon to make further measurements easier but at this point I don’t even know what to try next, everything looks good but it’s not. Are you checking the same point on the blade at the front and back? Pick one tooth with the flat cutting edge facing the miter slot, measure the distance to the miter slot. Rotate the blade and measure the same tooth at the back of the table. If those aren't very close then you need to adjust the top of the saw relative to the blade, which isn't fun. I see that were talking about a little jobsite saw, which might not have that adjustment. Might be easier to return it.
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Aug 14, 2021 11:31
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I've never been so confused in my life as I am by this slotted screw discussion. All these links look like, you know, flat head screws commonly available at every big box store on earth. What am I missing?
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Aug 14, 2021 12:56
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ColdPie posted:I've been happy with stuff from Blacksmith Bolt https://www.blacksmithbolt.com/ Oh, those look good and old. Slugworth posted:I've never been so confused in my life as I am by this slotted screw discussion. All these links look like, you know, flat head screws commonly available at every big box store on earth. What am I missing? Vintage screws are usually plain steel or brass. Big box stores, when they even have slotted screws (all the ones I see are phillips) are zinc plated. Completely different look.
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Aug 14, 2021 13:15
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NomNomNom posted:Are you checking the same point on the blade at the front and back? Pick one tooth with the flat cutting edge facing the miter slot, measure the distance to the miter slot. Rotate the blade and measure the same tooth at the back of the table. If those aren't very close then you need to adjust the top of the saw relative to the blade, which isn't fun. I see that were talking about a little jobsite saw, which might not have that adjustment. Might be easier to return it. Sorry, to be clear I wasn’t measuring parallelness at the time - I was simply measuring one spot and turning the blade to see how much it moved back and forth through the course of a full rotation. However, I’ve now built a dial indicator jig that rests in the miter slot. Now I’ve measured how parallel to the slot the blade is. It’s off by almost a hundredth with the back closer to the left slot (using the same tooth as recommended!). I also quickly measured from one spot through a rotation again, and the deviation is about .018” or roughly double the parallel error - which tracks with the too wide kerf width of .124 compared to expected .098 - that’s about .025, so .018 plus say 6 thousandths on inherent blade runout matches pretty close. Will getting the blade more parallel remove most of this error? I haven’t been able to think through the geometry to figure out if a parallel error gets doubled in practice as the blade spins or if there might be more to adjust after lining up the blade to the miter slot. Either way, removing a hundredth of kerf error would be a big improvement. Jigs are fun to build, I whipped this one up after looking at several examples. Measuring the blade puts the dial indicator about half way pushed in so there’s extra measuring space and I can check the fence too.
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Aug 14, 2021 19:50
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No dude your saw sounds hosed. Return it if you can, or try to get a warranty replacement.
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Aug 14, 2021 20:43
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Enderzero, is this the problem? Angle exaggerated for effect, and I meant "parallel to miter slot" rather than "parallel to fence" but gently caress it it's an mspaint: If the saw blade axle is skewed a bit, the blade will cut a wider kerf through a board that is run through exactly parallel to the miter slot. I'm not 100% clear if this is the runout you're measuring with your dial indicator but if it is: most table saws have a way to adjust this angle, although you may have to get under the saw or partially disassemble it and gently caress around with screws to do it. Many saws instruct you during setup to adjust the fence to be parallel to the blade, which is fine right up until you're using the miter slot as your guide for a workpiece (as you are with a sled) rather than the fence.
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Aug 14, 2021 21:13
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If I'm understanding right, there is a wobble in the blade of it's own accord, unrelated to it's alignment to the table (though Leper's drawing is also a very important adjustment). Wobble more than a couple thou on the body of the blade means either the blade is damaged/crap or the arbor is bad. Could be runout from bad machining on the flange or could be a little tiny sliver of wood between the blade and flange. You can pick up an inexpensive dial test indicator and stand and sneak it down and measure the arbor flange directly (or try and fit a regular dial indicator down there, but the angle will be tough).
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Aug 14, 2021 21:26
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Stultus Maximus posted:Oh, those look good and old. oh I assumed you were looking for real old-timey forged screws with the hosed-up off-center heads. If that's all you want can also just burn the zinc off real easy; i do it by accident all the time
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Aug 14, 2021 21:56
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A Wizard of Goatse posted:oh I assumed you were looking for real old-timey forged screws with the hosed-up off-center heads. If that's all you want can also just burn the zinc off real easy; i do it by accident all the time Note that zinc fumes are toxic. Do not inhale.
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Aug 14, 2021 22:05
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A Wizard of Goatse posted:oh I assumed you were looking for real old-timey forged screws with the hosed-up off-center heads. If that's all you want can also just burn the zinc off real easy; i do it by accident all the time Yeah, just need things to match the hardware in my 120 year old house. Speaking of, it's really appalling how many people think that drywall screws are the all-purpose fastener. Deadbolt, floorboard, window, you name it.
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Aug 14, 2021 22:10
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Leperflesh posted:Enderzero, is this the problem? Angle exaggerated for effect, and I meant "parallel to miter slot" rather than "parallel to fence" but gently caress it it's an mspaint: Thanks for the diagram but it turns out, no, that’s not the problem. More careful measurements showed that the amount the blade is out of parallel with the miter slot is about 5 thou, not 9 thou as I initially thought, which I think is probably acceptable for factory alignment. I think I got it wrong because I wasn’t measuring with the dial tip at 90 degrees to the blade surface? That’s corrected now. I also did more (wayyy more, like 3 hours) of measuring and I think the arbor is not bent, but something in the arbor shoulder, arbor flange, outer flange, arbor nut chain is the issue. I kept the dial indicator in one spot and was rotating the blade around, and the total deviation from the point on the saw that is closest to the left slot to the point on the saw that is farthest from the left slot is about 18 thou. The farthest from the slot point always occurs at the same point in relation to the arbor flange - I loosened the nut and spun the blade freely 90 degrees at a time before retightening and the far point is always straight out radiuswise from the same point on the arbor flange. This was true even rotating the arbor flange 180 degrees (it’s a Bosch 4100 and the arbor has two flat parallel sides cut across the arbor so there’s only two positions the flanges can mount in). Something is warping the blade by this 18 thou amount when the blade is tightened down - and with the proper measurement of the parallel error of 5 thou, that gets very close, adjusting for other small runout contributions, to the extra kerf width I originally measured. It’s not overtightening the nut - it happens even when I apply minimum pressure to clamp and keep the blade from spinning freely. I’m leaning towards it being the arbor flange - the shoulder seems unlikely since the far from the slot point follows a spot on the arbor flange, not a spot on the shoulder. The outer flange has been rotated to both its positions and doesn’t have an effect on the warping. And I don’t think the nut should be contributing? Not totally sure as it does feel the slightest bit janky or like it’s locking into a position when I tighten it up fully. So that leaves the arbor flange, unless I’m missing something. Hopefully I can get a replacement and see if that’s the cause.
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Aug 15, 2021 07:38
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Can you physically touch the arbor flange? Your fingertips can typically sense bumps of as little of a thou, so there could be a ridge or high spot where the flat spots are cut across the arbor or the flange that you could feel with your finger, and if so, you could gently run a file across it to take off a burr or high spot.
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Aug 15, 2021 07:45
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Leperflesh posted:Can you physically touch the arbor flange? Your fingertips can typically sense bumps of as little of a thou, so there could be a ridge or high spot where the flat spots are cut across the arbor or the flange that you could feel with your finger, and if so, you could gently run a file across it to take off a burr or high spot. The flange is removable so I’ve taken it off and lightly sanded it but there’s nothing there I can feel. The arbor threads look good but the nut tightens to about the same spot each time and when turning it, it feels like there’s almost a small groove or something as it clicks into the final tightened position? I’m heading out shortly to get a blade stabilizer set, gonna see if that either distributes pressure differently somehow or if the extra width will somehow pushes the nut out to a more stable, even spot or something. Otherwise, I’ll be calling Bosch tomorrow and/or taking it to a nearby repair center.
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Aug 15, 2021 17:05
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Enderzero posted:The flange is removable so I’ve taken it off and lightly sanded it but there’s nothing there I can feel. The arbor threads look good but the nut tightens to about the same spot each time and when turning it, it feels like there’s almost a small groove or something as it clicks into the final tightened position? I’m heading out shortly to get a blade stabilizer set, gonna see if that either distributes pressure differently somehow or if the extra width will somehow pushes the nut out to a more stable, even spot or something. If the saw is new and still under Bosch warranty, their tech support people have always been very helpful. Even if it isn't under warranty still, they've walked me through a few things over the phone-I would definitely call them before you start tearing into it. Keep in mind this is a portable jobsite saw, and it may just not be designed or built with the kind of precision you are looking for. It's built and designed for ripping plywood and dimensional lumber on construction sites. If you like dial indicators and calipers and think in thou, a heavier cabinet saw will probably make you much happier if that's an option for your space and budget.
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Aug 15, 2021 19:26
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Yeah, dialing it in is cool but I'm wondering what kind of project you're doing that requires that degree of precision.
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Aug 15, 2021 19:44
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My justifications for tool acquisition syndrome are getting pretty good. I'll be buying rough sawn lumber from the local lumberyard for the foreseeable future. Most of it will be wider than the 6" resaw capacity of my bandsaw. A high capacity bandsaw costs at least $1500 and won't fit in my basement. Therefore I'll be resawing by hand for the foreseeable future. Therefore dropping $100 at eBay on a good condition Disston ripsaw with thumbhole for two-handed grip is a wise choice. gently caress I have a lot of saws somehow.
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Aug 15, 2021 20:09
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Kaiser Schnitzel posted:If the saw is new and still under Bosch warranty, their tech support people have always been very helpful. Even if it isn't under warranty still, they've walked me through a few things over the phone-I would definitely call them before you start tearing into it. Yep, gonna call them tomorrow, and see if they can just send me an arbor flange to compare against. That should answer a lot. The blade stabilizer is a qualified success! Blade deflection is now 11 thou down from 18, and kerf width is down from .124” to .11”, basically cutting it in half. It’s under a 64th now which seems a lot more decent. Still gonna talk to support and see what’s up though. It seems like roughly a 4th of the blade is affected, if I spin the blade in the zero clearance slot in my crosscut sled, most of the teeth spin freely except for that quarter blade where it scratches right up against the side. Also, I was thinking about it and how much, or for what, does the blade being parallel to the miter slot matter? I’m wondering if it’s more important with making the riving knife effective than for quality of cut. If you’re off line, the kerf will be wider due to the angling but you should be able to adjust for that, right? However, if the blade back teeth are tilted towards the fence too much, then the workpiece could catch the teeth before the riving knife can guide the wood past them at a safe distance? Edit: nope, was thinking about thinner crosscuts too much, on ripping it will cut at front and back, but it’s better to have it angled away from the fence so the piece between blade and fence are done cutting that side on the front and won’t burn? I think, getting myself confused… Danhenge posted:Yeah, dialing it in is cool but I'm wondering what kind of project you're doing that requires that degree of precision. Probably nothing, but errors accumulate so I figure this is a good time to understand how to adjust my tools, get them tuned up (without getting to quixotic levels of trying to attain perfection) before usage starts to erode tolerances, and generally work on measurement techniques. Long term I want to figure out how quick and easily I can get to good enough. Enderzero fucked around with this message at 03:37 on Aug 16, 2021 |
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Aug 16, 2021 01:48
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Enderzero posted:Also, I was thinking about it and how much, or for what, does the blade being parallel to the miter slot matter? I’m wondering if it’s more important with making the riving knife effective than for quality of cut. If you’re off line, the kerf will be wider due to the angling but you should be able to adjust for that, right? However, if the blade back teeth are tilted towards the fence too much, then the workpiece could catch the teeth before the riving knife can guide the wood past them at a safe distance? Edit: nope, was thinking about thinner crosscuts too much, on ripping it will cut at front and back, but it’s better to have it angled away from the fence so the piece between blade and fence are done cutting that side on the front and won’t burn? I think, getting myself confused… The miter slot is the reference point mostly because anything you make that uses it will only cut as close as the slot is parallel. Miter slot <-> blade and then miter slot <-> fence are the two important parallel points to 1 - Cut things perpendicular when using the miter slot and 2 - parallel when using the fence and 3 - making sure you don't have fence pressure forcing your cut into the blade at the back because it causes burn marks and can potentially be a cause of kickback before your riving knife has a chance to take off the pressure. The miter slot and arbor should also never move with respect to each other over the lifetime of the saw. Those two pieces are the most securely attached parts of the saw to each other.
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Aug 17, 2021 01:53
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Can someone tell me the height width length of a general 1/2" collet plunge router? Something like this: https://www.amazon.com/dp/B00006JKXE/ref=cm_sw_r_cp_apa_glt_fabc_G7DWTPFXQJ74H4NE96T0?_encoding=UTF8&psc=1 I'm going to put together a miter saw stand/storage cabinet soon and wanna make sure I leave enough space for a plunge router that I'm going to buy sooner or later.
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Aug 17, 2021 02:14
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Well I thought I’d start talking to Bosch about getting an arbor flange sent to me. They sent me a parts diagram to make sure I got the part number correct, and I realized that the numbering of the diagram and part numbers were correct, but the description were hosed up - they were listing the arbor flange as a Label, the arbor shaft as as a Warning Label and the arbor nut as just Arbor. I sent them back what was wrong so they can correct the diagram and called back. A long hold ensued and the guy was like, yep, that diagram has issues. And they don’t have the arbor flange in stock. Luckily a parts distributor has one and it’s on the way. If that doesn’t solve it or prove the issue, there’s a service center a few miles away so I’ll take it in and have a look. Either way, the blade stabilizer has it down to less than 1/64th too wide and that’s workable from what I can tell. With that on hold it was time for dial indicatin’ the fence! Looks like it’s about 1/64 towards the blade at the back on average. I tried adjusting the fence but their self aligning system - a wedge at the back with an inverse wedge shape running the length of the back fence - is really not designed well. It’s a great idea executed poorly. Two set screws move the wedge up and down and then locking the fence pivots it into place, but it gets nowhere near seated in the wedge cutout! I realized it was literally contacting only one thin horizontal strip and the set screws wouldn’t go any longer. So off to the drill press to length the set screw slots. It’s still nowhere near perfect because the pivot rotates it and prevents mating flat - I would need to shim the wedge somehow on one side to counteract that. In the picture below I circled the wear mark from the original setup; the bottom half is where I have it now, contacting on top and bottom. Progress! I can still throw it out of alignment easily but with moving it softly via the middle it’s now averaging about 10 thou away from the blade, which is a nice halfwayish point between team dead even and team kick it away from the blade 1/64. Good enough. Time to get back to what I was doing 4 days ago and finish this crosscut sled.
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Aug 17, 2021 03:26
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I'm not trying to be snobby, but that is exactly why nobody recommends jobsite table saws for precision use. 10 thou is still quite a bit, and will lead to burning or trouble feeding stock which can be dangerous.
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Aug 17, 2021 13:38
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NomNomNom posted:I'm not trying to be snobby, but that is exactly why nobody recommends jobsite table saws for precision use. 10 thou is still quite a bit, and will lead to burning or trouble feeding stock which can be dangerous. No, I totally get it. I’m a dirty renter and I don’t have the space for something better so I’ll make do for now. I mostly wanted to ensure, as much as I can anyways, that it’s not tilted towards the blade for kickback reasons.
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Aug 17, 2021 15:11
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NomNomNom posted:I'm not trying to be snobby, but that is exactly why nobody recommends jobsite table saws for precision use. 10 thou is still quite a bit, and will lead to burning or trouble feeding stock which can be dangerous. 10k for a jobsite saw, are you serious? 
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Aug 17, 2021 15:26
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Mr. Mambold posted:10k for a jobsite saw, are you serious? Not sure if  but 0.010", not $10,000.
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Aug 17, 2021 15:39
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Mr. Mambold posted:10k for a jobsite saw, are you serious? Oh did sawstop release a new line?
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Aug 17, 2021 15:40
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Everyone has to hear "thou" as a unit of measure for the first time at some point. It was guitar setups for me. Kinda like "teenth."
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Aug 17, 2021 15:42
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Uthor posted:Not sure if ==  Rufio posted:Oh did sawstop release a new line? also lol
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Aug 17, 2021 19:15
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Huxley posted:Everyone has to hear "thou" as a unit of measure for the first time at some point. It was guitar setups for me. Kinda like "teenth." As long as we can agree "mil" is a terrible unit that shouldn't be used in any context.
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Aug 17, 2021 20:13
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oXDemosthenesXo posted:As long as we can agree "mil" is a terrible unit that shouldn't be used in any context. Especially around the holidays. Don't tell her I said that.
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Aug 17, 2021 20:55
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Saw blade is now parallel to miter slot within 2 thousandths. I can lock the fence to within 4 repeatably. After light sanding on my diamond plates, I removed a mill scratch from the arbor flange side that mates with the arbor shoulder - blade deviation is now about 7-8. Ironically, that improvement isn’t showing up in the kerf width, which is holding steady after the stabilizer addition at 0.11” (compared to 0.098” blade width) but I think that’s good enough at about 12% error. Back to work!
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Aug 18, 2021 01:45
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Alright, crosscut sled is all but done! Needs a few more screws, a guard box and waxing but the important part - squaring the fence - is complete. I got the error down to about 6 thousandths over a span of 12” which I think is pretty good, especially considering my skill level. I’m a little confused about the final steps of the math for the 5 cut method. Rewatching William Ng’s video and it looks like he celebrates a reading of a thousandth for his final number - but that’s in relation to the length of his particular cut, right? Shouldn’t the important number be the error ratio per inch? Discussions I’ve seen seem to feature people getting confused by this and arguing past each other.
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Aug 18, 2021 07:20
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