Trad Games Chat: squabbled over drafts, forked, and disbanded

The Something Awful Forums > Discussion > Traditional Games > Trad Games Chat: squabbled over drafts, forked, and disbanded

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Coolness Averted: Feb 20, 2007; oh don't worry, I can't smell asparagus piss, it's in my DNA

GO HOGG WILD!
🐗🐗🐗🐗🐗

hyphz posted:

The only unfortunate bit there is that it didn't include The Big Pie Caper, CFA's standard sample sandbox playset, which is a shame because it showcases a bunch of the design features that make it work so well as a sandbox. In particular the fact that it has the absolute opposite of the "this is a sandbox but the only thing you actually gain anything for doing is searching for the Golden Chicken" in that it'll throw so many valid progress opportunities at the player that they need a seperate sheet to keep track of them all, and let them do whichever combination they like.

Thanks for that recommendation by the way. I don't mind tossing some actual cash at devs of good games, especially when they gave away their main ruleset as part of a charity bundle

# ? Aug 14, 2021 04:41

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# ? May 23, 2024 17:56

hyphz: Aug 5, 2003; Number 1 Nerd Tear Farmer 2022.

Keep it up, champ.

Also you're a skeleton warrior now. Kree.; Unlockable Ben

That�s cool. The really sad thing is it�s the only standard play set that was ever published - the other two, Tomb of Follies (D&D parody) and Disorder in the Court (Phoenix Wright parody) are �special� sets that change the rules heavily. Which is interesting but not leveraging the simple fun power of the original rules.

# ? Aug 14, 2021 04:47

dwarf74: Sep 2, 2012; Buglord

bewilderment posted:

I think so based on the number of conscious backers, but it's worth remembering that everyone who got the BLM bundle from itch.io owns Blades in the Dark now.

They also own Lancer, Troika, and (as I was surprised to find out recently) Costume Fairy Adventures.

Oh yeah, that's a good point, too. I was thinking in money terms, but yeah.

I love PBTA games, but I'm imagining a bunch of PF or D&D 5e players suddenly getting it a year from now, sight-unseen, and having no idea what they are looking at.

# ? Aug 14, 2021 04:52

zerofiend: Dec 23, 2006

dwarf74 posted:

Oh yeah, that's a good point, too. I was thinking in money terms, but yeah.

I love PBTA games, but I'm imagining a bunch of PF or D&D 5e players suddenly getting it a year from now, sight-unseen, and having no idea what they are looking at.

Guarantee some of them will just try to hack it into 5e.

# ? Aug 14, 2021 05:11

Darth Various: Oct 23, 2010

90s Cringe Rock posted:

They do this all the time in slightly more specific forums, like sf or fantasy books.

The local dungeons and dragons is the wheel of time (2e ad&d) or brando sando (3e, 5e?), with the occasional cry of malazan (gurps)

Wheel of Time being the default fantasy book recommendation is both fun and sad on so many levels

# ? Aug 14, 2021 23:00

neonchameleon: Nov 14, 2012

90s Cringe Rock posted:

They do this all the time in slightly more specific forums, like sf or fantasy books.

The local dungeons and dragons is the wheel of time (2e ad&d) or brando sando (3e, 5e?), with the occasional cry of malazan (gurps)

What does Terry Pratchett count as?

# ? Aug 14, 2021 23:41

mllaneza: Apr 28, 2007; Veteran, Bermuda Triangle Expeditionary Force, 1993-1952

neonchameleon posted:

What does Terry Pratchett count as?

"Never mind what category it's in, just read the drat books."

# ? Aug 14, 2021 23:51

Splicer: Oct 16, 2006; from hell's heart I cast at thee
🧙🐀🧹🌙🪄🐸

neonchameleon posted:

What does Terry Pratchett count as?

They don't make RPGs that good

# ? Aug 15, 2021 00:26

Plutonis: Mar 25, 2011

I never saw anyone rec wheel of time more than LOTR (or recently, Witcher)

# ? Aug 15, 2021 03:39

Coolness Averted: Feb 20, 2007; oh don't worry, I can't smell asparagus piss, it's in my DNA

GO HOGG WILD!
🐗🐗🐗🐗🐗

Plutonis posted:

I never saw anyone rec wheel of time more than LOTR (or recently, Witcher)

I feel Wheel of Time had a very specific window when nerds were hugely into it and would recommend it, like 96- 2001, and then the movies basically ensured LOTR had over a decade of dominance again.

# ? Aug 15, 2021 06:38

Megazver: Jan 13, 2006

Plutonis posted:

I never saw anyone rec wheel of time more than LOTR (or recently, Witcher)

Brando Sando is the top default fantasy rec, yeah.

# ? Aug 15, 2021 10:20

90s Cringe Rock: Nov 29, 2006

neonchameleon posted:

What does Terry Pratchett count as?

GURPS Discworld already exists.

# ? Aug 15, 2021 13:39

Megazver: Jan 13, 2006

neonchameleon posted:

What does Terry Pratchett count as?

srs answer:

Terry Pratchett tends to be the first author brought up when people ask for humorous and heartwarming book picks and that's not a common rpg request

# ? Aug 15, 2021 13:45

Asterite34: May 19, 2009

Yeah I can't think off the top of my head of any TTRPGs whose main thing is being a witty satire of the fantasy RPG genre, at least not without being insufferable.

# ? Aug 15, 2021 14:11

KingKalamari: Aug 24, 2007; Fuzzy dice, bongos in the back
My ship of love is ready to attack

Plutonis posted:

I never saw anyone rec wheel of time more than LOTR (or recently, Witcher)

It's honestly so aggravating to me that even self professed "fans" of the fantasy genre tend to have such narrow reference pools for the works they consume.

# ? Aug 15, 2021 17:19

Halloween Jack: Sep 12, 2003; I WILL CUT OFF BOTH OF MY ARMS BEFORE I VOTE FOR ANYONE THAT IS MORE POPULAR THAN BERNIE!!!!!

Wheel of Time is the black tar heroin of fantasy series. It has no fans, only addicts, who recommend the series to others because misery loves company.

# ? Aug 15, 2021 17:39

Megazver: Jan 13, 2006

Tbh that's mostly just how brains work. Most people read much more widely than that, but when asked to recommend something usually the same three things pop into most people's minds and it takes sitting down with a piece of paper and dedicated mind rummaging to come up with other stuff.

# ? Aug 15, 2021 17:41

pog boyfriend: Jul 2, 2011

huge fantasy literature fan here. i like lotr, game of thrones, harry potter, and drizzt novels :mufasa:

in other news the playtest for fight with spirit is coming soon, anyone else looking into this game? its a storygame designed to capture the sports anime/movie/tv series genre

# ? Aug 15, 2021 17:51

Countblanc: Apr 20, 2005; _{Help a hero out!}

i love fantasy literature, specifically One Piece.

# ? Aug 15, 2021 18:31

Absurd Alhazred: Mar 27, 2010; by Athanatos

I read all WoT books written by Robert Jordan and I NEVER recommend that series to ANYONE. Just WHY?!

The D&D 5E thread provided a very good example for why I wouldn't recommend it to a new group, based just on the merits of the system:

jmzero posted:

My (4) kids wanted to play D&D, so I got the Essentials Kit and some extra dice. I had the day off yesterday so over the course of the day we made everyone's character - then we played a first session. I'm DMing. I haven't significant paper role playing games since I was a kid (but I play a lot of computer RPGs and board games). I haven't sought out any D&D "content" or whatever. Short story is that it went OK and my kids want to play more. But I came away with a lot of questions, like... why isn't this better? Here's my review:

THE STARTING MISSION/SETUP SEEMS REALLY BAD

The opening scenario really sets you up for failure as DM. You start out a quest-hub sort of village, and the players can pick from three quests. OK, immediately... why? I'm new to all the rules, and now I have to read over three quest settings if I'm going to get ready or come up with ideas. I didn't want to do that. But that meant that for our first session, with a very shakey understanding of the rules, I'm only ahead of the players by "whatever sentence I'm currently reading" in the descriptions.

Also, having 3 choices (with automatic level-up between) seems to mean the first missions will be impossible to balance. Just the HP difference between level 1 and 3 across the party is going to be huge. I thought surely they would vary setup based on player count and level and... not so much. The first enemies (in the Dwarven Excavations quest) are 2 Ochre Jellies with tons of health, and who are very likely to one-shot my players (they do effectively 3D6+2 of damage, and my players have like 11 HP). Maybe at level 3 they'd be fine, but they are not the right picks for level one enemies. Or, if they are, then they're not the right picks for level 3 characters with way more health and options.

Meanwhile, the stat block/description/setting is giving me nothing to work with in terms of prompting my players towards non-combat alternatives (eg. the jellies aren't "drawn towards their torch or something", and I have no help figuring out how Jellies behave or how else we might deal with them). Rather than trying to push players towards running away (effectively abandoning their first quest having done absolutely nothing), I "heavily managed" the fight so they didn't all die.

I don't... get it? Like, how did this go in playtesting? There are very few variables here. Were players supposed to know dwarven excavations are prone to strong monsters?. Was this supposed to be a lesson for the players, like "this is a hard game and you might all die with little recourse".. or "run away when you see monsters"? A lesson for the DM, like "nothing we give you has been thought through... so be ready to make stuff up."

Meanwhile, the rest of the setting is giving me nothing to work with. The rooms are mostly empty and boring as crap. Oh look, featureless room with rubble. Oh wow this one has some beds. There's trivial theme, no puzzles, no "set pieces with interesting interactions", and no real clear way to convey the (short/bland) story behind the place. The mission gave me nothing to work with in terms of exercising "D&D mechanics". No walls to climb that the athletic rogue could try to explore, but maybe fall off. No mysterious writing that maybe needs an arcana check, but if you can figure out will help with enemies later. No poison gas trap to do a save from.

Am I supposed to be "bringing in" all the good/interesting stuff as DM? I mean, that's what I did. While the combat was grinding along I made up some stuff for the temple's end room, and then I made up some rules/mechanics for the Orc fight at the end (I decided to have a ton of orcs show up, but they fought in a choke-point doorway until the orcs' morale broke... none of which I had any mechanical/written-setting support for). Am I expecting too much here to think the book should be giving more help with this?

THE SYSTEMS AND WHAT'S IN THE BOOK

The overall systems seem like.. poorly thought out, for a very mature game. Like, there's all these systems but they don't seem to do anything. Tons of stuff costs meticulously detailed "time", but there's no time pressure I can find outside of combat. Who the gently caress cares about how long it takes to copy spells into your spellbook or clear rubble or search rooms or get up from prone or short rest vs. long rest when there's no clock anywhere? It seems like the result of some initial game brainstorming that they never figured out how to make relevant.

My players want to search forever and long-rest every time they take damage, what do I got to stop them? The book gives me no advice on how to handle what have to be super common play patterns. The book gives no advice on anything - no "helpful hints from 50 years of playtesting" on how to deal with "all the players want to grab the gem", "what information should I be getting/giving as they transition between areas", or deal with endless questions about searching and "can I see anything on the ceiling?". When it comes down to it, what decides whether they find the secret door? Does the person with best perception do all the searching so stuff isn't "lost forever"? Or...like, I could also have used some examples of "running combat in an interesting way without exactly tracking everyone on a grid".

Instead, the book is full of stupid poo poo. It's full of weights. Surely I'm not supposed to be weighing all the dumb stuff my people have. "Hey player, are you bringing the 'dark clothes' you got as part of your kit on this mission? Well, if not let's just update your weight spreadsheet." Surely, surely, everyone ignores this (other than, like... no you can't bring a cannon up the ladder I guess), so... how about just don't have it? It's just, like, clogging up the book and making it harder to see what's interesting. If some grog wants it, have an appendix for it, and then don't put that appendix in the essentials kit.

...because there's no mechanics anywhere here to help me or create interesting decisions. There's no mechanics to support me saying, like, "you're going to have to pick between bringing a rope or a lamp into this dungeon", because mechanics wise both those things are cheap and light. And even if they weren't light, it seems like they could hire a donkey for nobody cares CP and run back out to the donkey for the cost of 0-to-forever time, which doesn't matter because I don't see how to make any of these things matter. Why not... like, "at level 1, you can pick 2 miscellaneous items off this list to bring"? And then now that there's an actual choice, you can say "If you want to take more than 10 arrows with you, that'll cost a slot". Oh, you levelled up your strong fighter and took the "ready for everything" perk, now you get 3 item slots. Do people just kind of force these kinds of decisions in ad-hoc?

The game can't seem to pick a lane here. Like, these decisions need to matter or be interesting somehow, or they should be gone. Or there shouldn't be any rules and it should be up to thematic-role-playing-story to decide how it matters. But the crap is every where I don't know where to find the fun in it.

My DM screen - like, the absolute core heads up information you need to play - is full of dumb poo poo. A meat chunk is worth who cares CP and mediocre lodging costs eye-roll SP, and who cares about travel time. The only thing worse than it being irrelevant is if it was relevant somehow. And if a scenario cares about tracking a large animal in 3.4 inches of snow maybe that mission could just tell me what difficulty that check is? Or, again, put it in some ranger's grog-book. Surely there's something else that could be on my DMs screen, because I'm eternally fumbling through the manual to find poo poo.

Meanwhile, we're just coming to level 2 and tons of the economy considerations and tables are irrelevant. On their first mission, my players found 150GP worth of gems and a 50GP amulet, which the book tells me they can sell for something like full price. So, yeah, after one mission, 90% of the stuff at the store (and the meat chunks) are effectively free forever, and whatever "dungeoneer's pack" or "explorer's pack" thing they spent time picking during their character creation (and used nothing from) are also irrelevantly cheap. It feels like lots of those decisions were a waste, other than vague story theme. And they can afford most of weapons, except they don't care about buying new weapons because they're totally uninteresting. Like, we were talking about it after the mission - and there's just so little basis to make these decisions. How can a greataxe and a greatsword be, like, the same weapon? Why? Why can't an axe do a special cleave move, or swords be better at blocking swords.. or something? Am I supposed to be fudging things as DM so that there's some kind of difference, or is all just pointless decoration?

It feels like a lot of the game is going to be combat, but the combat seems prone to a lot of repetition - and I have no guidance how to integrate any kind of variety. Can the rogue do an acrobatic flip off a table to get advantage? Can they hide behind a pillar and spring out? If they can, how do I prevent them from now just doing that same kind of poo poo all the time in every remotely applicable scenario? Even with minis it doesn't seem like there's enough here to make a tactical game that is interesting to play. If combat is going to take up lots of the time, how do I make it fun and not just "I shoot my crossbow again" every turn? Or is it supposed to be repetitive and you just kind of power through "resolving combat" to get back to exploring?

WHAT IS GOING ON?

I'm OK with running a role-playing story telling thing, but the game doesn't seem to be giving me much to work with for that. I'm OK with running a step-by-step rules simulation tactics sort of game, but the one here seems kind of bland - and I have no idea how to integrate it that with the "role-playing" side. Am I supposed to be making one or the other of those work better somehow? Did I buy the wrong stuff or not enough stuff? Is "all the above" just kind of what the game is, and I should take it or leave it? Should I be watching someone play some early levels to see what it's supposed to look like?

I understand that's a long scattered rant... Overall, I guess I just feel like I'm really missing something. Thoughts?

# ? Aug 15, 2021 18:38

Plutonis: Mar 25, 2011

Countblanc posted:

i love fantasy literature, specifically One Piece.

One Piece is not fantasy lit, it is above mere genre lit. I place it on the great civilizational canon instead.

KingKalamari posted:

It's honestly so aggravating to me that even self professed "fans" of the fantasy genre tend to have such narrow reference pools for the works they consume.

I mean that's the case for like every genre of every media, usually the majority of tastes is very narrow and tends to coalesce on the five biggest titles. Try asking people a JRPG series rec or a Sci Fi movie rec and you'll see the same phenomena.

# ? Aug 15, 2021 20:30

Humbug Scoolbus: Apr 25, 2008; The scarlet letter was her passport into regions where other women dared not tread. Shame, Despair, Solitude! These had been her teachers, stern and wild ones, and they had made her strong, but taught her much amiss.; Clapping Larry

Chaosium just reported Steve Perrin's death. Steve was the original designer of Runequest (and effectively the BRP ruleset). He was a cool dude who I first met at an SCA event back in 1974.

https://www.chaosium.com/blogvale-and-farewell-steve-perrin-1946-2021/

# ? Aug 15, 2021 21:17

Arivia: Mar 17, 2011

Absurd Alhazred posted:

I read all WoT books written by Robert Jordan and I NEVER recommend that series to ANYONE. Just WHY?!

The D&D 5E thread provided a very good example for why I wouldn't recommend it to a new group, based just on the merits of the system:

I felt bad for that guy because he correctly identified all the problems and the only solution is doomposting "yeah, you're right, it all sucks and you either have to spend a bunch of time fixing it or buy another system to use instead. I am very sorry 5e is a pack of lies."

# ? Aug 15, 2021 21:50

Xiahou Dun: Jul 16, 2009; We shall dive down through black abysses... and in that lair of the Deep Ones we shall dwell amidst wonder and glory forever.

The worst part is he�s 40+% of the way to having written Torchbearer and he�s barely played anything. Dude is god drat wasted on D&D.

# ? Aug 15, 2021 22:38

side_burned: Nov 3, 2004; My mother is a fish.

I am looking for a recommendation on a post-apocalyptic campaign, something really close to Fallout in both tone and setting. I did this ten year ago using Savage Worlds which was fine but I would prefer something a little more crunchy.

# ? Aug 16, 2021 02:05

That Old Tree: Jun 24, 2012; nah

side_burned posted:

I am looking for a recommendation on a post-apocalyptic campaign, something really close to Fallout in both tone and setting. I did this ten year ago using Savage Worlds which was fine but I would prefer something a little more crunchy.

Are you looking for medium-heavy character building plus gear bonanza like the actual Fallout games, or something a little lighter, or a lot lighter? Do you want something with a lot of guidance, or like Savage Worlds that's mostly a game engine for whatever and you can slap a few modifiers on top of?

# ? Aug 16, 2021 02:15

Humbug Scoolbus: Apr 25, 2008; The scarlet letter was her passport into regions where other women dared not tread. Shame, Despair, Solitude! These had been her teachers, stern and wild ones, and they had made her strong, but taught her much amiss.; Clapping Larry

side_burned posted:

I am looking for a recommendation on a post-apocalyptic campaign, something really close to Fallout in both tone and setting. I did this ten year ago using Savage Worlds which was fine but I would prefer something a little more crunchy.

Joke answer: Aftermath or The Morrow Project

# ? Aug 16, 2021 02:15

side_burned: Nov 3, 2004; My mother is a fish.

That Old Tree posted:

Are you looking for medium-heavy character building plus gear bonanza

That is a good way of describing what I am after

# ? Aug 16, 2021 02:20

That Old Tree: Jun 24, 2012; nah

side_burned posted:

That is a good way of describing what I am after

Mutant: Year Zero might be a little lighter than you're looking for (though if Savage Worlds did it for you, maybe it's just right), but despite the specific setting stuff it wouldn't be too hard to elide the base Mutations system and use it for a Fallout game. It's got a very Fallout 1+2 vibe (the serious-ish parts, anyway), it just assumes all the PCs might also have insect heads or whatever, but you can pretty easily ignore that. It's also got a pretty good random table for post-apocalyptic scrap.

GURPS might legit be a good choice. It's got a reputation and there's a lot of stuff to get a handle on just so you can pick and choose what to use, but once you pare it down to what you want, it's a pretty simple core game but still has lots of bits and bobs to play with. Plus, of course, the plethora of sourcebooks to guide you in how to modify your game. And you can pretend you're doing some real OG Fallout, and be a weirdo about how the video games were originally a GURPS tie-in.

I don't know what the state of Shadowrun is like anymore (I hear the latest, 6th edition, is some real dogshit), but if you could get hold of 3rd edition the base rules seem like they would be a good fit for a gear-porny game. Of course, you'll have to not care about the system being very well thought-out even if it might still be fun to use, but ignoring most of the racial and magic stuff might fix a lot of it. Not very much guidance from the game for being a Fallout-like game, though, and you'd be buying a book for just 50% of its content.

Have you considered just using Savage Worlds again? Why or why not?

# ? Aug 16, 2021 02:48

Hypnobeard: Sep 15, 2004; Obey the Beard

That Old Tree posted:

GURPS might legit be a good choice. It's got a reputation and there's a lot of stuff to get a handle on just so you can pick and choose what to use, but once you pare it down to what you want, it's a pretty simple core game but still has lots of bits and bobs to play with. Plus, of course, the plethora of sourcebooks to guide you in how to modify your game. And you can pretend you're doing some real OG Fallout, and be a weirdo about how the video games were originally a GURPS tie-in.

Specifically, After the End is the set of sourcebooks for this: http://www.sjgames.com/gurps/books/aftertheend/

# ? Aug 16, 2021 03:00

Spiteski: Aug 27, 2013

That Old Tree posted:

Mutant: Year Zero might be a little lighter than you're looking for (though if Savage Worlds did it for you, maybe it's just right), but despite the specific setting stuff it wouldn't be too hard to elide the base Mutations system and use it for a Fallout game. It's got a very Fallout 1+2 vibe (the serious-ish parts, anyway), it just assumes all the PCs might also have insect heads or whatever, but you can pretty easily ignore that. It's also got a pretty good random table for post-apocalyptic scrap.

GURPS might legit be a good choice. It's got a reputation and there's a lot of stuff to get a handle on just so you can pick and choose what to use, but once you pare it down to what you want, it's a pretty simple core game but still has lots of bits and bobs to play with. Plus, of course, the plethora of sourcebooks to guide you in how to modify your game. And you can pretend you're doing some real OG Fallout, and be a weirdo about how the video games were originally a GURPS tie-in.

I don't know what the state of Shadowrun is like anymore (I hear the latest, 6th edition, is some real dogshit), but if you could get hold of 3rd edition the base rules seem like they would be a good fit for a gear-porny game. Of course, you'll have to not care about the system being very well thought-out even if it might still be fun to use, but ignoring most of the racial and magic stuff might fix a lot of it. Not very much guidance from the game for being a Fallout-like game, though, and you'd be buying a book for just 50% of its content.

Have you considered just using Savage Worlds again? Why or why not?

MYZ also has a few expansions that may have some stuff of interest for different aspects - Elysium for politicking, Genlab Alpha for playing as furries, Mechatron for the wacky robots and playing as them (my fav), and a number of books that are just collections of standalone zones that you can drop into games with cool story hooks, items, and monsters/bad guys.
Definitely less on the crunch side than GURPS or Savage though, both in gearporn, char creation, and combat/rules.

# ? Aug 16, 2021 03:32

Leperflesh: May 17, 2007

RIFTS

is extremely aged and wildly unbalanced but I've basically played what you're describing using it so it's possible at least... but mostly I'm joking, do not dive into RIFTS

# ? Aug 16, 2021 03:37

Vox Valentine: May 31, 2013; Solving all of life's problems through enhanced casting of Occam's Razor. Reward yourself with an imaginary chalice.

Leperflesh posted:

RIFTS

is extremely aged and wildly unbalanced but I've basically played what you're describing using it so it's possible at least... but mostly I'm joking, do not dive into RIFTS

Savage RIFTS...is a better game but also not entirely what they're looking for.

# ? Aug 16, 2021 03:43

That Old Tree: Jun 24, 2012; nah

Cleaning out my mom's basement and found some artifacts, including some TG-related things. The main goal was to get rid of 20+ years of accumulated computer crap, which honestly wasn't as big a job as I had feared. It mostly fit in one old cabinet and was pretty easy to sort through. It wasn't all my mess, either, I found some computer lab key from my mom's old job, in an envelope marked "return to [name] X/X/1998."

I used to record Space Ghost Coast to Coast onto CDs to share with my friends, which was much cooler than my friend who shared around boring old VHS tapes. I compressed episodes enough to cram like six onto one disc, so it looked like poo poo!

Various old video game paraphernalia that is in pretty good condition. Shown but not visible is an enormous Dark Age of Camelot poster that I think I got along with a cloth map for the game world in whatever they called the deluxe edition. It's really lame, too, this humongous poster with just the boring old game logo on a black background.

I thought I was such a badass buying a CAD program to make RPG maps, and then it was a CAD program in the 90s and I was like 15 or 16 so I hit a brick wall trying to use it and gave up. I couldn't find any images online of CC1 stuff, but here's a go at showing you what the "a mountain" preloaded symbol looked like:

It was seriously only slightly better than that.

This map is about 19 years old (much younger than the other maps below). I know I played the poo poo out of Morrowind, but I'm not sure I ever beat it "legitimately." With most of the old Elder Scrolls games I'd start out trying to really role play a character as best as the game would allow, then inevitably start goosing my Athletics so I could super-jump and lightspeed run.

Other game crap I found includes the cool Wing Commander: Prophecy starmap, manuals for a bunch of poo poo and a couple of strategy guides. I'm gonna see what stuff like unboxed but good condition original Fallout 2 and Starcraft manuals go for on Ebay. I found the manual for the AD&D2 CD-ROM, and I think I still have the cool little cardboard sleeve with CD in it somewhere. Hopefully someone wants to pay me a million dollars for their dumb childhood.

Anyone in the Topeka area around 2003 might remember this place. It was a very nice store run by one of my best friends, the only competition that the long-time FLGS had seen and would see for decades. They got fed-up with the weekly Pokemon league because the children would always destroy the bathroom, plus there were a couple of creepy older guys that no one would tell to just go away, but when they brought Pokemon league to a stop that killed a big chunk of their regular business. And even when they were doing great, the whole venture was a money pit.

A bunch of old card game poo poo, including an empty MTG box that is approaching 30 years age.

The old Decipher Star Wars card game, that I played a lot, and the Shadowrun game, that I played a few times. And up top?

The Wheel of Time CCG! It had its own custom dice system, and the cards looked kind of crappy. I'm not sure I ever even played it. I think I was the only one in my school that owned any of it, and I only owned enough for one player.

This is only a fraction of my MECCG collection. I think this is mostly stuff from Dark Minions and maybe a few boosters worth of whatever the DRAGONS! set was, which was when I dropped off from the game because none of my friends wanted to play this boring goal-based indirect competition crap. I still love the map they made for this game.

I've got a giant box and maybe a binder full of more ME cards, along with a binder of the Dune CCG, and a box with some mid-2000s MTG stuff. I've got some old Decipher Star Trek CCG cards around somewhere, too, but it's just all the "good" stuff leftover after I took the bulk of my giant collection to get destroyed in GenCon 2005 Cardhalla. You can see a ton of them in a photo on the Wikipedia page for GenCon! Truly my greatest gaming legacy.

Speaking of Middle-earth, it's the old ICE poster maps:

A treasure trove! I think I might go ahead and get these and some of the other maps I found framed and put them in my office. I could dedicate a whole room of walls and shelves to Middle-earth bullshit.

# ? Aug 16, 2021 03:44

Antivehicular: Dec 30, 2011; I wanna sing one for the cars
That are right now headed silent down the highway
And it's dark and there is nobody driving And something has got to give

That Old Tree posted:

I'm not sure I ever even played it. I think I was the only one in my school that owned any of it, and I only owned enough for one player.

I think this was everyone who tried to get into niche CCGs as a kid. So many games I owned that I definitely never played, or played twice at a meetup at the university commons (that I probably shouldn't have been at because I was like 12). Any game that two people both had decks for got a poo poo-ton of play by default, which is why I got really into Spellfire -- another friend also had decks! We could play it! It was super-bad!!

# ? Aug 16, 2021 04:56

Tulip: Jun 3, 2008; yeah thats pretty good

I haven't read Pratchett but just in terms of how fans talk about his work (funny, clever, minimal caveats)...Paranoia?

Humbug Scoolbus posted:

Chaosium just reported Steve Perrin's death. Steve was the original designer of Runequest (and effectively the BRP ruleset). He was a cool dude who I first met at an SCA event back in 1974.

https://www.chaosium.com/blogvale-and-farewell-steve-perrin-1946-2021/

RIP to one of the big ones here

# ? Aug 16, 2021 13:42

Halloween Jack: Sep 12, 2003; I WILL CUT OFF BOTH OF MY ARMS BEFORE I VOTE FOR ANYONE THAT IS MORE POPULAR THAN BERNIE!!!!!

Absurd Alhazred posted:

The D&D 5E thread provided a very good example for why I wouldn't recommend it to a new group, based just on the merits of the system:

Wow, thank you for posting this. It really sums up everything I find problematic in D&D game design. Paring it down to the essentials:

quote:

Like, there's all these systems but they don't seem to do anything. Tons of stuff costs meticulously detailed "time", but there's no time pressure I can find outside of combat. Who the gently caress cares about how long it takes to copy spells into your spellbook or clear rubble or search rooms or get up from prone or short rest vs. long rest when there's no clock anywhere?

My players want to search forever and long-rest every time they take damage, what do I got to stop them? The book gives me no advice on how to handle what have to be super common play patterns.

Instead, the book is full of stupid poo poo. It's full of weights. Surely I'm not supposed to be weighing all the dumb stuff my people have. "Hey player, are you bringing the 'dark clothes' you got as part of your kit on this mission? Well, if not let's just update your weight spreadsheet." Surely, surely, everyone ignores this (other than, like... no you can't bring a cannon up the ladder I guess), so... how about just don't have it?

...because there's no mechanics anywhere here to help me or create interesting decisions. There's no mechanics to support me saying, like, "you're going to have to pick between bringing a rope or a lamp into this dungeon", because mechanics wise both those things are cheap and light. And even if they weren't light, it seems like they could hire a donkey for nobody cares CP and run back out to the donkey for the cost of 0-to-forever time, which doesn't matter because I don't see how to make any of these things matter. Why not... like, "at level 1, you can pick 2 miscellaneous items off this list to bring"? And then now that there's an actual choice, you can say "If you want to take more than 10 arrows with you, that'll cost a slot". Oh, you levelled up your strong fighter and took the "ready for everything" perk, now you get 3 item slots. Do people just kind of force these kinds of decisions in ad-hoc?

My DM screen - like, the absolute core heads up information you need to play - is full of dumb poo poo. A meat chunk is worth who cares CP and mediocre lodging costs eye-roll SP, and who cares about travel time. The only thing worse than it being irrelevant is if it was relevant somehow.

Meanwhile, we're just coming to level 2 and tons of the economy considerations and tables are irrelevant. On their first mission, my players found 150GP worth of gems and a 50GP amulet, which the book tells me they can sell for something like full price. So, yeah, after one mission, 90% of the stuff at the store (and the meat chunks) are effectively free forever, and whatever "dungeoneer's pack" or "explorer's pack" thing they spent time picking during their character creation (and used nothing from) are also irrelevantly cheap.

How can a greataxe and a greatsword be, like, the same weapon? Why? Why can't an axe do a special cleave move, or swords be better at blocking swords.. or something?

It feels like a lot of the game is going to be combat, but the combat seems prone to a lot of repetition - and I have no guidance how to integrate any kind of variety. Can the rogue do an acrobatic flip off a table to get advantage? Can they hide behind a pillar and spring out? If they can, how do I prevent them from now just doing that same kind of poo poo all the time in every remotely applicable scenario?

This is why there can never be one official Dungeons & Dragons that satisfies everyone--not even to the point of being "everyone's second-favourite version of D&D." The game was always a Frankenstein's monster of wargaming, storytelling, and some specific assumptions based on a specific slate of fantasy fiction from like 1925-1975. And as a result there are different, contradictory premises as to what kind of game this is. Some people are all about the logistics, others (probably most nowadays) don't want to deal with it at all. Some people want detailed tactical combat and some don't. Some people want disposable PCs, most people definitely don't. These are not things where you can just put in sliders to adjust them up or down while everything else stays cohesive and balanced.

It probably is theoretically possible to make Modular D&D. But you're going to end up with a game that requires the GM to fuss around with this Instant Game Designer kit you've created before they can start play, and create a situation where no matter what version of Choose Your Own D&D they're playing, half the books are now mechanical cruft that they're flipping past. At that point the game is less accessible than GURPS or Hero System.

And the 5e designers were aware of this on some level, because they claimed they were going to do all of this and then just gave up. There was a long period of "D&D Next" marketing where we were promised all of these modular rules that would allow everyone to create the D&D they wanted. It was endlessly debated on forums, some of it was just bizarre (bringing back facing rules for combat advantage?), and in the end it meant nothing. They took 3e, stripped it down, and kept boring D&Disms like tables of mundane equipment, nine-point alignment, and turning undead that give grogs doubleplusgood bellyfeels. At one point I had the notion that I would do a sort-of comparative review of what was promised in those updates versus the finished product. I believe all of those articles are memory-holed, making them a pain to dig up. But more importantly, I realized that trying to apply an academic degree of critique to 5e just isn't worth doing, and doing this sort of review of a game I don't like would be a massively whiny self-own.

And a lot of what they stripped out was useful guidance, while a lot of what they kept is boring cruft like the cost of a donkey. The OSR has been asking "Why do you need all those rules?" Well, a lot of them were created to deal with problems that arose in actual play! If the DM has to make "rulings not rules" to deal with logistics, time pressure, and maneuvers in combat, the game can quickly become as unmanageable as it is unbalanced. Like, "I made an on-the-fly ruling for PCs doing Zorro poo poo, now they contrive to do it all the time and I have to take this back" is something that's happened to me and almost everyone I know who's ever GMed. (Also, LOL that they devoted all of this time and energy to proclaiming that 5e would be "theatre of the mind," like every edition of D&D except that abominable tactical minis wargame known as 4e, and then they completely failed to make that interesting or even viable.)

# ? Aug 16, 2021 15:57

hyphz: Aug 5, 2003; Number 1 Nerd Tear Farmer 2022.

Keep it up, champ.

Also you're a skeleton warrior now. Kree.; Unlockable Ben

I remember the old playtest of the modular D&D next. It had like four separate splat choices for every character, but you didn't get to see any of them in the playtest because the characters were pregens.

# ? Aug 16, 2021 17:07

Halloween Jack: Sep 12, 2003; I WILL CUT OFF BOTH OF MY ARMS BEFORE I VOTE FOR ANYONE THAT IS MORE POPULAR THAN BERNIE!!!!!

The playtest was the only interaction I've had with 5e. I played a dwarf fighter, I had nothing to do except swing my axe at enemies, and the DM was scrambling to change things on the fly so that we didn't have to fight the infamous swarms of rats over and over and over.

# ? Aug 16, 2021 17:20

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# ? May 23, 2024 17:56

Splicer: Oct 16, 2006; from hell's heart I cast at thee
🧙🐀🧹🌙🪄🐸

Halloween Jack posted:

Like, "I made an on-the-fly ruling for PCs doing Zorro poo poo, now they contrive to do it all the time and I have to take this back" is something that's happened to me and almost everyone I know who's ever GMed.

It's amazing how easily solved this is and it's called metacurrency. "Can I do thing?" "I'm not sure, we'll say yes if you spend a metacurrency for the usual bonus and I'll look up the rules later"/"not usually but it sounds cool so spend a metacurrency for it". It mentally and mechanically flags it as a just this once exception but without the players feeling like they didn't properly "earn" the win.

# ? Aug 16, 2021 17:43

The Something Awful Forums > Discussion > Traditional Games > Trad Games Chat: squabbled over drafts, forked, and disbanded

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