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Libluini posted:We don't actually know, as we only have archaeological evidence and zero writing to go on. We only know that when ground and climate became less favorable, their culture cratered and something organized completely differently showed up later. Can you clarify what and when you are talking about? We have written records from Ur and the surrounding area that date to over 5,000 years ago so I am a little confused what you are referring to.
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Aug 16, 2021 02:23
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I mean If we give germans three months of desert between them and US gulf war troops and the americans only have supplies they had for desert storm, Yes. By the end of gulf war the american tanks and brads Were TORN UP, Especially abramses with their turbines. I think the after-op study showed they had enough spare parts for less than a week of operations by the end of the campaign bc the early m1 turbine filters just couldnt take the sand (they still cant, turbine and fine sand is a horrible combination and requires a ton of maintenance increase, but 1991 It was way worse) But this is likely not What the wehraboos Were going for- and on the same note ww2 was even MORE suspectible to wear and tear on desert conditions.
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Aug 16, 2021 02:39
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What was the split of German forces between East and West, around say November '44?
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Aug 16, 2021 02:44
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Yes, it's like a lava lamp.
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Cyrano4747 posted:If you think that's bad, look up the artillery war. The tl;dr is that the iraqis were more or less operating with the WW2 playbook, and the coalition forces were using counter-battery radar. How much 'man in the loop' is there in radar counterbattery? Does the system produce a co-ordinate and the crew lay fire on it without need for further orders? Or is it even more automated and lays the target by itself?
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Aug 16, 2021 05:28
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Slim Jim Pickens posted:No amount of tactical acumen, let alone that of 1944 Germany, is going to surmount the overwhelming material superiority of 1991 equipment. The US tanks have point-and-click tank guns with automatic rangefinders, they can blow up WWII tanks all day. The US artillery suite outranges everything German, and can bombard any position basically as soon as its radioed in. An undercommented aspect of Nazi Germany's military is that they minimized use of infantry formations in offensive roles, preferring to lean on armoured units or close air support whenever enemy defenses were strong. Against a 1991 military, those two branches are almost completely useless. No doubt the 1944/45 Wehrmacht would have zero chance whatsoever at making any offensive at all against the 1991 US Army - they weren't even particularly good on the offensive against the 1944/45 US Army. Could the 1944/45 Wehrmacht put up a stouter defense of Kuwait against the Americans than the 1991 Iraqi Army did IRL? That's perhaps a more interesting question.
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Aug 16, 2021 05:38
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gohuskies posted:No doubt the 1944/45 Wehrmacht would have zero chance whatsoever at making any offensive at all against the 1991 US Army - they weren't even particularly good on the offensive against the 1944/45 US Army. Could the 1944/45 Wehrmacht put up a stouter defense of Kuwait against the Americans than the 1991 Iraqi Army did IRL? That's perhaps a more interesting question. probably, if only that they're better trained and supplied.
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Aug 16, 2021 06:36
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Aha, but what if there is a global gas shortage? Then German horse artillery will be invincible!
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Aug 16, 2021 07:07
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gohuskies posted:No doubt the 1944/45 Wehrmacht would have zero chance whatsoever at making any offensive at all against the 1991 US Army - they weren't even particularly good on the offensive against the 1944/45 US Army. Could the 1944/45 Wehrmacht put up a stouter defense of Kuwait against the Americans than the 1991 Iraqi Army did IRL? That's perhaps a more interesting question. The Iraqis mainly just surrendered after a few minutes of combat. Any military that doesn't do that would do better. In the big armoured engagements where the Iraqi Republican Divisions were destroyed, the Germans would get destroyed even worse.
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Aug 16, 2021 07:26
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gohuskies posted:No doubt the 1944/45 Wehrmacht would have zero chance whatsoever at making any offensive at all against the 1991 US Army - they weren't even particularly good on the offensive against the 1944/45 US Army. Could the 1944/45 Wehrmacht put up a stouter defense of Kuwait against the Americans than the 1991 Iraqi Army did IRL? That's perhaps a more interesting question. No, the Germans are still human and after the air bombardment, against which they have even less ability to retaliate. Thiss means coalition planes can fly lower and hit more accurately, because Nazi SHORAD is going to be worse and have no missiles at all and their radars are far more primitive. They'd be about as ready to give up as the Iraqis after weeks of no food, sleep or resupply because their poo poo is all on fire. Honestly they have probably less ability to retreat than the Iraqis too because their level of mechanisation is much lower. Polyakov fucked around with this message at 07:35 on Aug 16, 2021 |
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Aug 16, 2021 07:32
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PittTheElder posted:What was the split of German forces between East and West, around say November '44? Here's link to the order of battle in september 1944. Not surprisingly the bulk of the armed forces are in the East, though the forces in France have a greater concentration of armored formations than is the case for the Eastern army groups. Also note the motley collection of panzergrenadier, paratroopers and Luftwaffe divisions and foreign-recruited formations in Italy.
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Aug 16, 2021 07:39
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How bad is Niall Ferguson's The Pity of War?Raenir Salazar posted:I just saw a cursed thing recently which was an argument where a wehraboo was arguing the 1944 German army could defeat the 1991 US Army. I'm pretty sure it was confirmed that the wehraboo in question, who goes by TheJamesRocket on other sites, is an honest to god fascist trying to "hide his power level." FPyat fucked around with this message at 14:08 on Aug 16, 2021 |
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Aug 16, 2021 14:05
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Object 140 Big articles queue: SU-76 frontline impressions, Creation of the IS-3, IS-6, SU-5, Myths of Soviet tank building: 1943-44, IS-2 post-war modifications, Myths of Soviet tank building: end of the Great Patriotic War, Medium Tank T6, RPG-1, Lahti L-39, American tank building plans post-war, German tanks for 1946, HMC M7 Priest, GMC M12, GMC M40/M43, ISU-152, AMR 35 ZT, Soviet post-war tank building plans, T-100Y and SU-14-1, Object 430, Pz.Kpfw.35(t), T-60 tanks in combat, SU-76M modernizations, Panhard 178, 15 cm sFH 13/1 (Sf), 43M Zrínyi, Medium Tank M46, Modernization of the M48 to the M60 standard, German tank building trends at the end of WW2, Pz.Kpfw.III/IV, E-50 and E-75 development, Pre-war and early war British tank building, BT-7M/A-8 trials, Jagdtiger suspension, Light Tank T37, Light Tank T41, T-26-6 (SU-26), Voroshilovets tractor trials, Israeli armour 1948–1982, T-64's composite armour, Evolution of German tank observation devices, Oerlikon and Solothurn anti-tank rifles Available for request (others' articles):  Shashmurin's career T-55 underwater driving equipment T-34 tanks with M-17 engines ISU-152 Wartime and post-war anti-tank hand grenades NEW  German King Tiger losses in December of 1944 in Hungary NEW Small articles queue: Soviet tank camouflage, AA machine guns on tanks, IS-3 pike nose Small articles available: linked because the list is too long Ensign Expendable fucked around with this message at 18:43 on Aug 16, 2021 |
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Aug 16, 2021 14:10
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FPyat posted:I'm pretty sure it was confirmed that the wehraboo in question, who goes by TheJamesRocket on other sites, is an honest to god fascist trying to "hide his power level." For some reason that does not surprise me in the slightest.
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Aug 16, 2021 14:20
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standard.deviant posted:January or December 1944? They would outnumber the Desert Storm US Army, but it wouldn’t be an overwhelming numerical advantage in either case. Also, if we're talking Desert Storm, there were uh quite a lot of other people there on the same side as the US....
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Aug 16, 2021 14:56
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FPyat posted:How bad is Niall Ferguson's The Pity of War? Extremely.
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Aug 16, 2021 15:04
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Ugly In The Morning posted:My grandfather is gonna try to come back this afternoon if anyone has any questions about the boring side of Korea. What were your thoughts on the war before/during/after you deployed? In other words, how did your participation in the war effort shape your perception of the war as a political thing? Can you point to specific experiences that made a particularly large impact on your opinions?
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Aug 16, 2021 15:05
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Valtonen posted:I mean If we give germans three months of desert between them and US gulf war troops and the americans only have supplies they had for desert storm, Yes. A week? I wasn't with M-1s - 1st Tanks still had M-60A1s - but that seems like an extreme exaggeration. Maybe Army M-1s were particularly fragile, but this doesn't line up with my experience at all. We were fine - we had plenty of stuff - and our vehicles weren't "torn up" by any meaningful measure.
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Aug 16, 2021 15:23
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The poor sod climbing in an Me-262, taking off, and then getting exploded by an F-16 is a vaguely funny mental image. Like, the argument is so fundamentally misinformed its kinda funny just to imagine how cosmically overmatched WW2 Nazis would be facing off against post Regan buildup US military would be. The US military in 1991 had one? Maybe two? Near peer adversaries. And nobody else was even a distant third. That the German Wehrmacht is bigger in '44 than the US military in 91 kinda misses the point. It's not quite the French vs the Congolese level of technological difference, but for your average dude on the ground, may as well be. WW2 air defense against modern air attack? Lmao. WW2 German tanks vs the Abrams? 72 Easting but every single fight is that. I don't think modern infantry tactics would so utterly and totally dominant, but modern infantry wears effective body armor that stops rifle rounds most of the time. Not so much for the unfortunate, recycled Soviet tunic wearing teenager with a loving k98. A Festivus Miracle fucked around with this message at 15:42 on Aug 16, 2021 |
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Aug 16, 2021 15:37
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Reading reports from Italy, it was impossible to perform 100-hour overhauls on Sherman engines and supply spare parts in time, so tanks kept running on underserviced engines and using tracks until all of the rubber had worn off. They were definitely running below any expected standard of efficiency, but at the same time were still combat capable.
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Aug 16, 2021 15:38
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CrypticFox posted:Can you clarify what and when you are talking about? We have written records from Ur and the surrounding area that date to over 5,000 years ago so I am a little confused what you are referring to. The time I'm talking about must be around 6000-7000 years ago, but I can look this up in more detail if you want, the book I got this from is on my shelf, after all.
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Aug 16, 2021 15:46
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A Festivus Miracle posted:The poor sod climbing in an Me-262, taking off, and then getting exploded by an F-16 is a vaguely funny mental image. I can’t for the life of me imagine the military who could put up a fight against the Americans in ‘91. The Russian military is threadbare, underpaid and the people who knew how to war have left since their conscription have ended Who’s number 3 in 91? A very distant third in China? Or is it the UK? Edit: also grinning face to face from the thought of a luftwaffe ace, the last of his kind, climbing into an me-626 and not even taking off before eating precision munitions straight into his nazi jaw
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Aug 16, 2021 15:48
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the say, 1988 Bundeswehr vs 1944 Wehrmacht is probably a more fair fight note I say more fair in that say like, Manny Pacquiao beating the gently caress out of an amateur fighter is technically more fair than him beating the gently caress out of me
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Aug 16, 2021 15:52
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KYOON GRIFFEY JR posted:the say, 1988 Bundeswehr vs 1944 Wehrmacht is probably a more fair fight Won't it create confusion when some of the officers have to fight on both sides?
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Aug 16, 2021 15:56
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champagne posting posted:Won't it create confusion when some of the officers have to fight on both sides? I think by 88 mandatory retirements would have ensured most of those in the service in 1944 would be out. The mandatory retirement age for generals just got raised to 60, so they would have to be 16 in '44 to be still in the Bundeswehr in 88. There's probably a few, though. i still laughed though
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Aug 16, 2021 16:03
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A Festivus Miracle posted:I don't think modern infantry tactics would so utterly and totally dominant, but modern infantry wears effective body armor that stops rifle rounds most of the time. Not so much for the unfortunate, recycled Soviet tunic wearing teenager with a loving k98. We wouldn't fight their infantry. The whole point of war is to not fight fair fights. Why send our infantry to climb into trenches to fight hand to hand? Sit back, let Air kill them, then rake them over with artillery, then mop up what's left.
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Aug 16, 2021 16:35
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Hans sighs as he closes the drivers hatch of his Panther and immediately takes a M829 depleted uranium dart fired from a Abrams 2700m away. The neighboring Panzer IV hurriedly ties to shoot back but they can’t even see what fired through the smoke and dust. Meanwhile the another dart proceeds to pass through the Panther and knocks out a Hanomag 30 meters behind killing everyone on board. Some say the dart is still going. The rest of the panzergrenadier brigade is then wiped out by M26 DPICM rockets fired from a single M270. This catastophic loss is hurriedly reported up the chain by the brigade commander but all higher level command has been dead for 36 hours from a bunch of GBU-27 dropped into the dining room of the manor of they were staying in from planes they didn’t even know existed. Mazz fucked around with this message at 16:46 on Aug 16, 2021 |
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Aug 16, 2021 16:39
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Panzerlied? more like PANZERDIED.
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Aug 16, 2021 16:52
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Cessna posted:A week? I cant remember the exact publication - likely a GAO after action review- pretty sure I actually read it from either this or the cold war thread But the main gist was that the logistics and part supply for most of m1 stock was sitting at zero or close to zero by the end of hostilities. Anyone who has even gone through a dry NTC rotation on an abrams knows that once your air filters are so bad you cant even properly blow them clear the turbine is not gonna have a long life remaining If you just force it onwards. Now all engines hate desert, period, But turbines have it roughest by far.
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Aug 16, 2021 16:53
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Valtonen posted:Now all engines hate desert, period, But turbines have it roughest by far. I do not buy the idea that the army would have ground to a halt; we never lacked supplies. I suspect that if push came to shove that replacement filters would have been flown in.
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Aug 16, 2021 16:58
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Hitler sits down to a breakfast of meth and fruit, enjoying the stunning view of the Alps from his enormous stone patio. He hears a strange noise -- a quiet machine-like hum -- echoing around the canyons, and is still wondering if it was real or a figment of his meth-addled brain when the Tomahawk's warhead blows up his house and flings his now-mangled corpse off the side of the mountain.
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Aug 16, 2021 17:02
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A Festivus Miracle posted:That the German Wehrmacht is bigger in '44 than the US military in 91 kinda misses the point. It's not quite the French vs the Congolese level of technological difference, but for your average dude on the ground, may as well be. You only have to look to a Wehraboo favorite to see basically this same sentiment repeated back during the war itself Erwin Rommel posted:Anyone who has to fight, even with the most modern weapons, against an enemy in complete command of the air, fights like a savage against modern European troops, under the same handicaps and with the same chances of success. And that's, I'm almost 100% sure, referring to the experience of fighting the Western Allies once their command of the air became ever more smothering. IIRC Rommel became pretty unpopular with many of the other generals when he was put in charge of the defense of France because he had become incredibly pessimistic about being able to do almost anything in the face of Allied air supremacy.
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Aug 16, 2021 17:07
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Valtonen posted:I cant remember the exact publication - likely a GAO after action review- pretty sure I actually read it from either this or the cold war thread But the main gist was that the logistics and part supply for most of m1 stock was sitting at zero or close to zero by the end of hostilities. Anyone who has even gone through a dry NTC rotation on an abrams knows that once your air filters are so bad you cant even properly blow them clear the turbine is not gonna have a long life remaining If you just force it onwards. This, probably? I enjoy how self-congratulatory it is wrt the amazing ingenuity of local sustainment personnel.
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Aug 16, 2021 17:07
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I do wonder how well radar would track wood and canvas aircraft but that's not the luftwaffe at all.
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Aug 16, 2021 17:08
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Argas posted:I do wonder how well radar would track wood and canvas aircraft but that's not the luftwaffe at all. The airframe might be wood and canvas but the engine isn't
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Aug 16, 2021 17:16
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Mazz posted:Hans sighs as he closes the drivers hatch of his Panther and immediately takes a M829 depleted uranium dart fired from a Abrams 2700m away. The neighboring Panzer IV hurriedly ties to shoot back but they can’t even see what fired through the smoke and dust. Meanwhile the another dart proceeds to pass through the Panther and knocks out a Hanomag 30 meters behind killing everyone on board. Some say the dart is still going. This gets into a big component of the whole thing. If you can't see your target then you're chance of anything approaching effective return fire is on the level of winning the lottery jackpot. Even ignoring the difference in Killing The Other Guy potential the difference in vision/detection technology is stupefying.
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Aug 16, 2021 17:50
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This came up in YouTube recommendations and I don't want to click on it but I kinda want to click on it
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Aug 16, 2021 17:51
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Argas posted:I do wonder how well radar would track wood and canvas aircraft but that's not the luftwaffe at all. Radar isn't just a metal detector - yes, metal is more reflective than wood or canvas, but those materials aren't entirely invisible. There are other factors, like the size and shape of the object. And, as noted, this is irrelevant as WWII planes were, for the most part, metal.
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Aug 16, 2021 17:53
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bewbies posted:Hitler sits down to a breakfast of meth and fruit, enjoying the stunning view of the Alps from his enormous stone patio. He hears a strange noise -- a quiet machine-like hum -- echoing around the canyons, and is still wondering if it was real or a figment of his meth-addled brain when the Tomahawk's warhead blows up his house and flings his now-mangled corpse off the side of the mountain. Yeah, this is crucial. If you lined up a WWII Wehrmacht soldier and a 1991 grunt and had them shoot at each other like a mythical Old West gunfight, sure, it would be a relatively even fight. If you put a single King Tiger and an M-1A1 i - well, odds heavily favor in some sort of World of Tanks fight, odds heavily favor the M-1A1, but who knows? Maybe the King Tiger might get a lucky shot from the rear and hurt the M-1A1. They probably won't, but it is within the realm of possibility. M-1s have been taken out by RPGs in Iraq - no tank is invincible. But even with that in mind, that's not how the fight would go. The US just wouldn't engage in fair fights. They'd wreck the Luftwaffe from far away at night, then they'd spend a month or two paralyzing and then dismembering the Wehrmacht. Eventually they'd move in and mop up. The only possible chance the Wehrmacht would have would be to use vast numbers and just slowly push forward. But even that wouldn't happen; the US would shut down every road and method of communicating at the start of the war. As it is, the Iraqi army in 1991 was (broadly speaking) built to fight a WWII style war. Look how it went for them.
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Aug 16, 2021 18:03
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Cessna posted:Radar isn't just a metal detector - yes, metal is more reflective than wood or canvas, but those materials aren't entirely invisible. There are other factors, like the size and shape of the object. Well yes, I was just thinking that radar would have slightly different behavior with different materials and since we're on this thread of what-ifs, why not go further back than WW2 where planes are mostly metal.
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Aug 16, 2021 18:08
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FPyat posted:
It turns out that if you think racial purity and Aryan willpower are more important than logistics, you make incredibly bad decisions about war. That's a recurring theme of this thread.
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Aug 16, 2021 18:16
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