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BiggerBoat posted:Similarly, I like when they try to shake down Jamba Juice or whatever it was with the old school style "nice place ya' got here. Be a shame if something were to happen to it" and the kid behind the counter is just like "well, yeah, whatever. OK. Can I help you?" and you can see the extortion tactics the old guys grew up with die in real time. That is quite probably my favorite scene on the show. One thing I wonder, and apologies if it's a bit afield from the normal thread discussion topics; but how much of the decline of the Mafia IRL can be blamed on globalization/megacorporations like in that scene? The Yakuza and Bratva have 'business' models that seem like they would much better whether the rise of the megacorp, but it does feel like even apart from the crackdowns in NY and elsewhere enabled in no small part by RICO laws, that the mere changing economic landscape would have forced the Mafia to adapt or die.
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Aug 13, 2021 20:37
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CharlestheHammer posted:I mean the FBI played extremely fast and lose with their informants. Killing them basically took zero effort within the show Yeah this is one element of the show thats very 'heightened reality' in that it really isn't some slamdunk solution to kill every single person you suspect is an informant: very likely one of those murders will get tied back to you and the organization. There are zero repercussions to the murders of Jimmy Altieri, Big Pussy, Black Jack Masserone, Adriana, etc. etc. (I'm sure I'm missing one or two). In the reality of the show the real cost to these murders are more about the cost they have to ones soul, and not the clear and present danger of the FBI definitely knowing you killed one of their informants. RoboChrist 9000 posted:That is quite probably my favorite scene on the show. I have always gotten the impression the decline of La Cosa Nostra occurred well before real effects of globalization had taken hold, with RICO being a primary cause. But there's no doubt that the longterm decline of mom and pop stores, the decline of the labor movement (far fewer unions to take advantage of) and a shift from manufacturing to service industry would have no doubt demanded a total shift in how the Mafia operates. And its possible no real adaptation would have made a difference. Which is, despite the neoliberal dystopia we currently inhabit, a good thing at the end of the day. One thing that tickles me the more I read about the history of the Mafia in the US is how much these people absolutely love snitching on each other. They snitch even more than the characters in the Sopranos. Mike N Eich fucked around with this message at 20:47 on Aug 13, 2021 |
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Aug 13, 2021 20:42
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Big corps also hire much bigger workforces than organized crime does and turnover would require a lot more "effort" when seeking new hires. I don't think NDAs cover homicides.
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Aug 13, 2021 22:45
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My god, it just occurred to me. Why didn't Tony go kill Tony B, then set Phil up to get pinned for it by giving him Blundetto's location and sending him up there to be found with the corpse? He probably could have used Agent Harris in the plot. drat.
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Aug 13, 2021 22:55
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I mean why didn’t Tony B kill Phil when the scene has him have him at point blank range but somehow only winged him
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Aug 13, 2021 22:59
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You really need to listen to this if you've lost track of the podcast. Just these couple minutes after this time stamp https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eE1kZrqWU8o&t=7997s
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Aug 13, 2021 23:05
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You really need to listen to this if you've lost track of the podcast. Just these couple minutes after this time stamp https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eE1kZrqWU8o&t=7997s
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Aug 13, 2021 23:05
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This is a pretty interesting read https://melmagazine.com/en-us/story/sopranos-queer-culture
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Aug 13, 2021 23:14
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Another Bill posted:Yeah I remember on my last rewatch thinking that too. Like, even just a scene where the local PD bring Christopher in and rattle his cage about Adriana being "missing" while the FBI watches from behind the two way mirror would have added a lot of unresolved tension before his death. Same. Just when their informant is about to crack and go WPP, she up and disappears. I remember thinking something similar when Chris and Paulie kill that waiter because how hard would it be to track that dude's tables down? I know they paid cash so there's no credit card receipts or anything but if I remember right it was a casino (or casino adjacent) so you'd likely have security cameras at the very least plus a restaurant full of witnesses (staff as well as patrons) who saw this 10 or 12 top table the poor guy was last seen working.
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Aug 13, 2021 23:33
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codo27 posted:My god, it just occurred to me. Why didn't Tony go kill Tony B, then set Phil up to get pinned for it by giving him Blundetto's location and sending him up there to be found with the corpse? He probably could have used Agent Harris in the plot. drat. That fat gently caress Soprano set me up with his cousin. Kill his entire family
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Aug 13, 2021 23:37
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codo27 posted:You really need to listen to this if you've lost track of the podcast. Just these couple minutes after this time stamp The most amazing thing about Talking Sopranos is that Steve Schirripa is even more of a goombah type character than Bobby Bacala is. Bobby is this sweet soft spoken guy and Steve is like....Paulie adjacent in affect.
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Aug 13, 2021 23:52
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Mike N Eich posted:The most amazing thing about Talking Sopranos is that Steve Schirripa is even more of a goombah type character than Bobby Bacala is. Bobby is this sweet soft spoken guy and Steve is like....Paulie adjacent in affect. That's not super surprising. He used to be the entertainment director at the Riviera in Vegas which is how he eventually got to be an actor.
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Aug 14, 2021 00:14
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Mike N Eich posted:The most amazing thing about Talking Sopranos is that Steve Schirripa is even more of a goombah type character than Bobby Bacala is. Bobby is this sweet soft spoken guy and Steve is like....Paulie adjacent in affect. Really? Always pegged him as more of a Mario
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Aug 14, 2021 00:15
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BiggerBoat posted:Same. They paid and left. Like they do at every other restaurant they go to. (Sorry Artie  ) Dude went into a back alley at night and got robbed. Not really something you'd expect high ranking mob guys to do.
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Aug 14, 2021 00:16
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night slime posted:That fat gently caress Soprano set me up with his cousin. Kill his entire family Yeah exactly, there's no way Phil and Johnny Sack wouldn't instantly put the blame on Tony, and credibly so, and that would paint Tony as a snitch/informant and he'd lose all support from everybody. Jerusalem fucked around with this message at 01:38 on Aug 14, 2021 |
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Aug 14, 2021 01:23
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Mike N Eich posted:The most amazing thing about Talking Sopranos is that Steve Schirripa is even more of a goombah type character than Bobby Bacala is. Bobby is this sweet soft spoken guy and Steve is like....Paulie adjacent in affect. he is a spectacular moron
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Aug 14, 2021 01:28
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The first time I watched the last scene with Junior I could have sworn I saw a slight smirk when he gets told he "ruled Jersey" before going blank again. Every time I watch it beyond that I can never quite tell if that's actually what I'm seeing or not.
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Aug 16, 2021 16:20
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codo27 posted:You really need to listen to this if you've lost track of the podcast. Just these couple minutes after this time stamp Brolander posted:he is a spectacular moron Him exclaiming "In the grocery store!!!" as some kind of defense is the funniest loving thing I've ever heard
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Aug 16, 2021 17:25
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Just finished 'Walk Like a Man' in my rewatch and I'm bracing myself for Kennedy and Heidi. I have to give all props to Michael Imperioli, David Chase and the writer's room, because god, my heart breaks just watching Christopher walk off to his doom like this. It's doubly impressive because by all measures of morality, Christopher is a very, very bad guy. He's a physically and emotionally abusive partner, who eventually conspires to kill his fiance. He commits a multitude of murders, some of them utterly senseless, like the waiter and poor JT Dolan. And yet, Imperioli's Christopher still engenders so much pity and sympathy in me, maybe it's his baby face, maybe its because you can tell he's straining to escape the life and fighting his addiction, and hopefully, for the viewer, its not just because of internalized hierarchies of sexism and glorification of power and violence. I truly wonder at what point the writers knew they were going to kill Christopher. It's possible it was baked in at the beginning, given his name and the sort of reverse 'Christ' role he plays for Tony - instead of the metaphorical son dying for the salvation of humanity, this other figurative son is killed to be the final profane act on the way to damnation. I'd love to know when that decision was made. Anyway, they do a phenomenal job with the character and hat's off to Michael Imperioli. Mike N Eich fucked around with this message at 17:48 on Aug 16, 2021 |
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Aug 16, 2021 17:45
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I just rewatched the scene with Tony giving sage advice to Christopher about how best to squash his beef with Paulie, intercut with maniacal Paulie doing donuts on Christopher’s lawn in his Cadillac with that amazing scowl on his face. I forgot how funny that was.
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Aug 16, 2021 19:48
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I think the main reason Christopher is able to stay at least somewhat sympathetic despite his horrific crimes is the amount of context and backstory on him we get throughout the series. There's really nobody else aside from Tony where we get that level and depth of information about what he's been through and what makes him tick. I feel like even Carmela doesn't get as fleshed out as Christopher does as a character.
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Aug 16, 2021 20:08
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Mike N Eich posted:It's possible it was baked in at the beginning, given his name and the sort of reverse 'Christ' role he plays for Tony - instead of the metaphorical son dying for the salvation of humanity, this other figurative son is killed to be the final profane act on the way to damnation. Insightful. I was raised Catholic and that definitely has some heft to it, intentional or no.
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Aug 16, 2021 22:17
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Probably the darkest comedic moment in the entire show is Tony realizing at the first therapy session with AJ after the suicide attempt he has a bloody tooth in the cuff of his pants (after he curbstomps and nearly kills a man for insulting his daughter). Of course a natural connection point to the Test Dream when he dreams that his teeth are falling out. Teeth...dreams....castration anxiety, power, control, image issues. At this point though, its a mere annoyance to him, another thing he has to cover up. He's the one taking peoples teeth out, not fearing for the loss of his own. Though Melfi shows up less and less in the final season, it's really clear throughout that Tony is further and further away from her. He's not listening to anything she has to say, there are not any breakthroughs like there were in previous seasons. He comes back to her here and there when he experiences a trauma but its not to learn any lesson. She's just a comfort for him, like the ice cream or the gambling or the sex, etc. etc. Melfi's much-belated ending of his sessions actually does make more sense for me on this rewatch, and its not nearly as abrupt as it seemed on first viewing. The closer I get to the end of the show the more the controversy regarding the final episode seems totally remote and unimportant. It absolutely does not matter if he dies at Holsten's or not - the man is completely dead inside and beyond redemption several episodes before that. Mike N Eich fucked around with this message at 22:35 on Aug 16, 2021 |
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Aug 16, 2021 22:32
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RoboChrist 9000 posted:That is quite probably my favorite scene on the show. The final scene of the character Mike Milligan in the second season of Fargo is a pretty interesting take on this
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Aug 16, 2021 23:33
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People are touching on it but this show does a tremendous job overall of making the viewer sympathetic to an entire cast full of absolute monster characters. It's a testament to the quality of the writing and also the acting.
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Aug 16, 2021 23:41
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Mike N Eich posted:
I'd argue this is the entire 6th season, both parts 1 & 2.
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Aug 17, 2021 02:06
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phasmid posted:Insightful. I was raised Catholic and that definitely has some heft to it, intentional or no. the sacred and the propane
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Aug 17, 2021 03:43
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I don't think it's possible that the writers had him in mind, but I like to think that Lil Carmine is based on Michael Franzese -- most famous for the 1980s gas tax scheme. They both lived in Florida and got involved in movie making. And Lil Carmine totally would be the one with a YouTube channel profiting off Mafia LARPers with his bullshit wisdom. Franzese is less funny and likeable, though.
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Aug 17, 2021 08:37
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BiggerBoat posted:People are touching on it but this show does a tremendous job overall of making the viewer sympathetic to an entire cast full of absolute monster characters. It's a testament to the quality of the writing and also the acting. I'm not saying sopranos isn't really well written because it is, but I've always thought this comment is unearned. People sympathise with monsters extremely easily. All you need to do is give them a little bit of attention, some foibles or an explanatory framework, and they'll usually be the most popular characters in anything. I think there's some complicated psychological and social reasons for this, but it's something that gets said about any story with unethcial characters that is also well written and even a lot of times when it isn't well written.
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Aug 17, 2021 09:05
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BiggerBoat posted:People are touching on it but this show does a tremendous job overall of making the viewer sympathetic to an entire cast full of absolute monster characters. It's a testament to the quality of the writing and also the acting. Yup. I don't know if it is just because we see her interacting mostly with Tony and she is the biggest monster in his life, but Livia is the only one I never felt bad for. The second most evil mother I have seen on drama TV (horror is a whole other genre of course).
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Aug 17, 2021 11:13
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Mike N Eich posted:Probably the darkest comedic moment in the entire show is Tony realizing at the first therapy session with AJ after the suicide attempt he has a bloody tooth in the cuff of his pants (after he curbstomps and nearly kills a man for insulting his daughter). Of course a natural connection point to the Test Dream when he dreams that his teeth are falling out. Teeth...dreams....castration anxiety, power, control, image issues. At this point though, its a mere annoyance to him, another thing he has to cover up. He's the one taking peoples teeth out, not fearing for the loss of his own.
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Aug 17, 2021 14:38
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Yeah I don’t know why people think you need to do much to make bad people likable. Hell a tragic backstory is usually all you really need
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Aug 17, 2021 14:44
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BiggerBoat posted:People are touching on it but this show does a tremendous job overall of making the viewer sympathetic to an entire cast full of absolute monster characters. It's a testament to the quality of the writing and also the acting. It's also a testament that the show never portrays them as anything but monsters even as we find ourselves empathizing with them, which other shows (I'm going to call out Sons of Anarchy here) get really confused on as the show goes on. Like some people were shocked Paulie smothered his mother's acquaintance to death with a pillow but... I mean, yes, yes, "FUCKIN' QUEERS!" and everything but have you met him?
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Aug 17, 2021 16:50
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Paulie is a character that almost everyone on the show calls a psychopath, it's just that the wiseguys follow it up with some form of "that's just how he is" or "what are you gonna do"
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Aug 17, 2021 17:25
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roomtone posted:I'm not saying sopranos isn't really well written because it is, but I've always thought this comment is unearned. People sympathise with monsters extremely easily. All you need to do is give them a little bit of attention, some foibles or an explanatory framework, and they'll usually be the most popular characters in anything. I think there's some complicated psychological and social reasons for this, but it's something that gets said about any story with unethcial characters that is also well written and even a lot of times when it isn't well written. Yeah this is true - and not to pick on the below comment about Livia (because I'm also guilty of this) its amazing how hard it is for audiences to sympathize with women in a similar situation. If mob movies have shown us one thing, its that audiences have a really hard time not relishing in the violence, power, machismo and lavish lifestyles of rich, powerful, bad dudes. I think the Sopranos does a relatively responsible job in disentangling that, but still can't fully escape from all of its trappings. Meanwhile, we're given more than a few glimpses that Livia was more complicated than the completely sadistic monster Tony thinks she is, and yet nearly all of us have a very hard time extending the same empathy for her. Pope Corky the IX posted:Paulie is a character that almost everyone on the show calls a psychopath, it's just that the wiseguys follow it up with some form of "that's just how he is" or "what are you gonna do" One of the most interesting aspects of Paulie's character is he actually seems to have more of a connection to the supernatural than anyone else in the show. He of course sees the Virgin Mary, has that connection with the psychic to see Mikey Palmice, and sees something wrong with the cat and Christopher (is the cat the reincarnation of Christopher? of Adriana? Some sort of ferryman of death? all and none of these I think) I don't think there's any real significance there other than the fact its really funny and ironic the guy with probably the least amount of introspection has somehow tapped into the beyond. Mike N Eich fucked around with this message at 17:59 on Aug 17, 2021 |
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Aug 17, 2021 17:49
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I think part of it is the Umbridge Effect, where most of us have never had to deal with a gangster or a mass murdering wizard, but most of us have had to deal with a cruel teacher or an older relative who stewed in their bitterness.
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Aug 17, 2021 18:13
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Dawgstar posted:It's also a testament that the show never portrays them as anything but monsters even as we find ourselves empathizing with them, which other shows (I'm going to call out Sons of Anarchy here) get really confused on as the show goes on. Like some people were shocked Paulie smothered his mother's acquaintance to death with a pillow but... I mean, yes, yes, "FUCKIN' QUEERS!" and everything but have you met him? Yeah I think that's what puts the sopranos up a notch; it routinely reminds you, graphically, of exactly how bad these people really are; paulie murders an old lady because she caught him robbing her (a hosed up thing to do to begin with), chris is constantly beating the poo poo out of adrianna, etc etc. At no point (except sometimes in Meadow's imagination) are these noble outlaws doing what they have to do get by, or gentlemen thieves doing bad things for good reasons; much like Carmela, we can never say that we haven't been told, and yet we find ourselves coming back around to their side. Mad men kind of does the same thing, but with a bit less severity; those characters' moral failings tend to be (with some exceptions, including at least one rape) a bit more toned down and civilian in nature. And then Breaking Bad is the story of a man turning evil, whereas the sopranos crew broke bad long before we met them, they're just bad. I will say that I never liked ralphie though, I'm glad he died
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Aug 17, 2021 18:17
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Ainsley McTree posted:I will say that I never liked ralphie though, I'm glad he died Ralphie....whatever happened there... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ohscge4f1Ak
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Aug 17, 2021 18:22
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Ainsley McTree posted:I will say that I never liked ralphie though, I'm glad he died Not a Gladiator fan?
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Aug 17, 2021 22:53
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Ainsley McTree posted:I will say that I never liked ralphie though, I'm glad he died Are you threatened by the fact that he has a sense of style?
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Aug 17, 2021 23:04
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