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The United States posted:Nick Fury can be like that when he's got Nathan Muir and Cy Tolliver to represent the higher ups in the system that even he, company man that he is, ultimately has to go against. If they wanted to do the same for Waller they would have to have her report to, say, Jim Hopper from the briefing room scene, and have her complain about it being their decision to unleash the enchantress, and that she has to clean up the mess they made. Have him be the one they have to try (and fail) to rescue, have him be the one responsible for enchantress destroying all the military and intelligence installations. Stuff like that. Yeah, I think the key to making characters like that work is that they need something to push back against. Without something for them to confront you don't really have any way to show anything but the hardass part. Nick Fury got the random dudes who tried to nuke New York for example. The United States posted:I don't think that's what the HARD MEN MAKING HARD CHOICES trope is referring to at all. "I have to do this terrible thing because it's the only correct action and nobody else will." That is Batman to a T. Again, the entire point of the character in any modern story is that Gotham was a horrible broken corrupt place where nobody could be trusted and his only choice was to become a vigilante who terrorizes people into submission. Like "Criminals are a superstitious and cowardly lot" was where he began and the additional violence and torture just got compounded on as things progress. He's constantly portrayed as the only force that can stand between Gotham and The Evil Criminals and that totally justifies him breaking someone's leg to force them to tell him where the bomb is which of course absolutely works most of the time. Even his "do not kill" code ends up being entirely about his unwillingness to make one particular Hard Choice and of course he is the only one who can and every consequence of him not doing a murder falls directly back onto his shoulders. That is why we can't escape the "Why doesn't Batman just KILL the Joker" thing because that is the Hard Man Decision that Batman is expected to make. Batman is the guy who makes Darkseid back off because unlike Superman, Darkseid knows he totally would blow up a planet. He's the Hardass Scary One. (Again except when well written where his genuine empathy and desire to protect people is more important than the fact that he will totally crush a guy's head beneath his Bat-Tire to get information.) ImpAtom fucked around with this message at 07:00 on Aug 17, 2021 |
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Aug 17, 2021 06:52
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I mean...if we're talking all variations of Waller, then I'm pretty sure that the comics version at least has long since crossed the line beyond simply being a hard person who wants to save lives into just another corrupt government bureaucrat who abuses her power in outrageous ways, far beyond what would be acceptable for most anti of antiheroes, at least when they're not being possessed by the Hand or whatever. I know that there was a time, especially throughout the Luthor presidency  , where Waller actually came across as the reasonable, functional department head who kept the government from being even worse than it was, and during the 52 revamp they definitely tried to steer her towards being more of a gray-scale figure, but at this point those depictions might as well have never been. All she's done for years is to make nefarious schemes that make Henry Gyrich look sane by comparison and yet don't ever really go anywhere, and then complain about the bleeding heart superheroes who just don't get how hard it is to be her.This is why I even questioned if Waller is actually even saving lives anymore at this point. If she isn't, then she's simply another supervillain and it makes actual heroes look bad if they don't do jack about it. There's no reason for Batman to be afraid of her, any more than he's afraid of any other broken cog in the system.
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Aug 17, 2021 07:03
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BrianWilly posted:I mean...if we're talking all variations of Waller, then I'm pretty sure that the comics version at least has long since crossed the line beyond simply being a hard person who wants to save lives into just another corrupt government bureaucrat who abuses her power in outrageous ways, far beyond what would be acceptable for most anti of antiheroes, at least when they're not being possessed by the Hand or whatever. I think this an ongoing problem with a lot of superhero writing to be honest. There are way too many characters who have an absolutely absurd amount of blood on their hands and are written as absolute gibbering morons but are too popular to actually have lasting consequences for so they keep existing in this weird state of simultaneously being written as if they are not that version of the character while not actually doing the legwork to justify that. Eventually someone'll come along and do a good story for a character but it can take time and interest and you don't always get that. (Or occasionally you get convenient reboots that take the justification for those actions and blame it on a yellow fear bug or something.) I think part of the reason superhero movies can work is that they tend to focus on the parts of the characters which work the best so you can see characters in close to their ideal state. Unless they're unlucky enough to be popular enough to get in but not popular enough to do well so you get Deadpool but with his mouth stitched up and eye beams. ImpAtom fucked around with this message at 07:13 on Aug 17, 2021 |
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Aug 17, 2021 07:11
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I mean if we didn't first get Ryan Reynolds as The Dead Pool with the glued shut mouth and stolen mutant powers whose decapitated head shooting out cyclops red eye beams of death caused the 3 mile island incident in the Marvel Cinematic Universe we never would have gotten the actual Deadpool movies.
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Aug 17, 2021 07:25
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I don't think she sent the A Team to get mowed down, when Blackshot or whatever his name was gets up and is "hey I'm the one who sold us out!" she is pissed and does not like she has lost control of the situation. Though the A team was probably the team that was meant to go in first, clear things out and cause a distraction so B team could go in. If she wanted them all to die she wouldn't have ordered B team to rescue Flag.
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Aug 17, 2021 07:32
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I just want to see the live-action version of Waller giving Granny Goodness the business with an overpowered sci-fi gun, is that so much to ask?
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Aug 17, 2021 08:13
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I feel like arm-fall-off-guy could probably do some neat stuff with his arms like dualwielding guns with them and shooting people from the air or cool kung-fu ghost-arm stuff and wahtnot instead of meekly slapping folks
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Aug 17, 2021 09:29
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I thought he was going to send his arms on a stealth mission to turn off the flood lights, not try to pull a three stooges routine.
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Aug 17, 2021 09:32
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Really wish we had a throwaway line from Waller about letting Starro do its thing for a bit before calling the Justice League/calling in a nuclear strike. As it is "we're just going to ignore the building sized alien that can make zombies because something something destabilising an enemy" makes her look like a massive idiot.
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Aug 17, 2021 09:53
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Gravitas Shortfall posted:Really wish we had a throwaway line from Waller about letting Starro do its thing for a bit before calling the Justice League/calling in a nuclear strike. To be fair Starro didn’t seem particularly hard to kill, hell the island’s military probably could have gotten it done if the squad hadn’t already mowed through the majority of them.
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Aug 17, 2021 11:09
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The United States posted:I mean if we didn't first get Ryan Reynolds as The Dead Pool with the glued shut mouth and stolen mutant powers whose decapitated head shooting out cyclops red eye beams of death caused the 3 mile island incident in the Marvel Cinematic Universe we never would have gotten the actual Deadpool movies. If it also erased Detective Pikachu I think maybe we were better off.
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Aug 17, 2021 13:15
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ImpAtom posted:I've always been kind of bothered by the idea of Waller as the Big Stupid Evil Inept Bad Person Who Does Everything Wrong because it feels like it defeats what is actually interesting about the character, which is that she is an absolutely stone-cold rock-iron Wall of a person who is willing to do what is necessary even if it seems awful, but that she is also effective because of this. The trend to just write her as the most inept dumbo stupidface ever is lazy and avoid having to actually write something interesting with the character. It's also extra weird because she's a character archetype who almost never gets respect (heavyset black woman in a position of power) and basically the only one of note the in the entire lily-white DC universe so making her the dumbest dumbface who can't do anything right feels pretty gross. If you write her even remotely competent, you risk having thousands of thinkpieces written about how your movie is a CIA psyop
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Aug 17, 2021 13:23
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twistedmentat posted:I don't think she sent the A Team to get mowed down, when Blackshot or whatever his name was gets up and is "hey I'm the one who sold us out!" she is pissed and does not like she has lost control of the situation. Though the A team was probably the team that was meant to go in first, clear things out and cause a distraction so B team could go in. If she wanted them all to die she wouldn't have ordered B team to rescue Flag. Flag had a line about how she tricked Blackguard into doing that, that's how the distraction worked
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Aug 17, 2021 16:24
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Wrong thread, looking forward to Shang Chi.
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Aug 17, 2021 20:33
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twistedmentat posted:I don't think she sent the A Team to get mowed down, when Blackshot or whatever his name was gets up and is "hey I'm the one who sold us out!" she is pissed and does not like she has lost control of the situation. Though the A team was probably the team that was meant to go in first, clear things out and cause a distraction so B team could go in. If she wanted them all to die she wouldn't have ordered B team to rescue Flag. https://gizmodo.com/james-gunn-explains-why-amanda-waller-wanted-rick-flagg-1847490528 quote:“We realize that she picked out all of the people she didn’t like, and all the people she thought were really useless, just to use as a diversion so the team she thought was useful could get through,” Gunn said. “And it’s true. Team 2 is pretty deadly. They’re pretty good at what they do… they’re the real money team. And then there’s the other team.”
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Aug 17, 2021 20:53
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That scene they cut explaining why Flag is on Team One sounded at least a little funny, but I think the payoff works better in the movie as it stands, where the audience is left to infer that Waller wanted Flag dead because she knew he wouldn't be okay with destroying the evidence of the US' involvement in Project Starfish.
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Aug 17, 2021 20:56
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Hasn't Waller learned yet that you never bet against Harley Quinn
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Aug 17, 2021 21:00
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Oh come on, I wanted to see the scene where she had a terrible shirt on and Flag just lets her have it
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Aug 17, 2021 21:00
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site posted:Hasn't Waller learned yet that you never bet against Harley Quinn Really like the silly theory I read (maybe it was in here, even) that Harley knows how to remove her bomb and just shows up for Task Force X missions whenever she feels like it to have fun with her friends.
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Aug 17, 2021 21:01
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Arist posted:That scene they cut explaining why Flag is on Team One sounded at least a little funny, but I think the payoff works better in the movie as it stands, where the audience is left to infer that Waller wanted Flag dead because she knew he wouldn't be okay with destroying the evidence of the US' involvement in Project Starfish. I also think its easy enough to accept that Waller would just get tired of Flag and want him gone eventually because she doesn't need someone with any kind of idealism or sense of right and wrong messing up her plans. Plus a lot of the idea of Task Force X is that people are disposable so you can use them up and treat them how you like because you're gonna discard them before there's time for consequences to come back on you. So just getting rid of Flag, Harley, and Boomer because there's too much baggage to trust them makes sense to me from Waller's perspective.
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Aug 17, 2021 21:12
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Arist posted:Really like the silly theory I read (maybe it was in here, even) that Harley knows how to remove her bomb and just shows up for Task Force X missions whenever she feels like it to have fun with her friends. They probably just don't even bother giving her one anymore
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Aug 17, 2021 21:13
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Take this with a grain of salt but Shang chi is getting EXTREMELY good reviews (one i read compared it to logan)
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Aug 17, 2021 22:11
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ilikedirt posted:Take this with a grain of salt but Shang chi is getting EXTREMELY good reviews (one i read compared it to logan) calling initial social media reactions "reviews" is giving them far, far too much credit; they're almost always positive
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Aug 17, 2021 22:15
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Barry Convex posted:calling initial social media reactions "reviews" is giving them far, far too much credit; they're almost always positive Yeah, these were from the first screening with people that were invited, so they're going to tend to fall on the positive side. Though someone has said the third act is crazier than needed, so that's got me curious.
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Aug 17, 2021 22:19
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Waller probably only sent team A(B?) to save Flag because if she didn't and he survived he might get wise to her having left him for dead and become a problem for her, like he almost did anyways.
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Aug 17, 2021 22:54
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ilikedirt posted:Take this with a grain of salt but Shang chi is getting EXTREMELY good reviews (one i read compared it to logan)
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Aug 17, 2021 22:55
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I know a few of the 'influencers' who got to see it early (I have many leatherbound books) and they've said good things about it privately too. That said they're all mostly easy to please types. Minor complaints that I recall were too many flashbacks that feel like they disrupt the flow, and a couple of people thought it was too jokey.
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Aug 17, 2021 22:59
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Codependent Poster posted:Yeah, these were from the first screening with people that were invited, so they're going to tend to fall on the positive side. Though someone has said the third act is crazier than needed, so that's got me curious. I wouldn’t be surprised if the tournament part of the film that has Wong and Abomination in it is bigger than the marketing has suggested up to this point, but just spitballing here
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Aug 17, 2021 23:03
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Barry Convex posted:I wouldn’t be surprised if the tournament part of the film that has Wong and Abomination in it is bigger than the marketing has suggested up to this point, but just spitballing here I assume they mean the high fantasy Wuxia stuff.
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Aug 17, 2021 23:21
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ImpAtom posted:I've always been kind of bothered by the idea of Waller as the Big Stupid Evil Inept Bad Person Who Does Everything Wrong because it feels like it defeats what is actually interesting about the character, which is that she is an absolutely stone-cold rock-iron Wall of a person who is willing to do what is necessary even if it seems awful, but that she is also effective because of this. Yeah well I absolutely loving detest the "I do despicable things because I'm willing to make the HARD DECISIONS" trope because it A - is a loving lie that is constantly told in order to forgive actual, disgusting, powerful people irl for their career paths that are littered with acts if self serving monstrosity B - explicitly states that sometimes you need to exploit, torture, and kill lots of innocent people "for the right reasons," reasons which almost never actually get interrogated by media, be it news reporting or fiction. Cruelty and "willpower" of callous determination to treat other people like the trash that fuels the incinerator of your personal ambition and will-to-power is not the same thing as competence, tactical genius, or intelligent stewardship of power, and it is very good that Waller is shown to be a psychotic piece of poo poo when executing on the exact kind of US imperial behaviors historically carried out, constantly, by psychotic pieces of poo poo
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Aug 17, 2021 23:39
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Yeah but punisher is cool af, sooooo
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Aug 18, 2021 00:07
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SlimGoodbody posted:Yeah well I absolutely loving detest the "I do despicable things because I'm willing to make the HARD DECISIONS" trope because it So what superhero do you enjoy? Because off the top of my head: Batman is loving Batman. Superman has on multiple occasions been forced to kill someone because it was The Only Choice. The Fantastic Four, Iron Man, Dr. Strange, Black Panther, Namor, etc, etc are all characters who have on many occasions committed atrocities because it is the only path available to them. The X-Men have done varying degrees of insanely horrifying things. Professor Xavier and Beast alone have done things infinitely worse than Amanda Waller has ever been written to do and Magneto and Emma Frost are defined as "being willing to do horrible things for the greater good." I mean I can go on. You also ignored the entire point is that a well-written Waller isn't treating people like disposable trash. The "lol i just want those guys to die because haha" Waller is lovely writing. I hate "Hard Men Making Hard Decisions Are Cool" poo poo. You can find posts earlier in this thread where I pointed out I hate characters like Dr. Doom being portrayed as the coolest guy in the room. But the key there is that a well-written Dr. Doom is a self-centered egotist murderer. A well-written Amanda Waller is someone who is desperately trying to protect people and understands the cost of a life. And you can argue that is propaganda for black ops folks and I won't disagree there, but superheroes are 90% propaganda for cops and the status quo as is. I still enjoy superhero media because I'm able to recognize the inherent flaws in a lot of concepts and desire to see an attempt to push something interesting out of them. If you had something interesting to do with Amanda Waller then it would stand out a lot less then just shrugging and making her the Crusty Evil Dean of Suicide Squad. That isn't even interesting criticism. ImpAtom fucked around with this message at 00:27 on Aug 18, 2021 |
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Aug 18, 2021 00:14
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ImpAtom posted:Because off the top of my head: Apart from batman you've basically got a whole list of people who some writers like to write as Hard Men Making Hard Decisions While Hard. Running a deathsquad is meanwhile Amanda Waller's WHOLE THING.
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Aug 18, 2021 00:28
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We're talking about someone who puts bombs in the brains of superhuman killers so they can do black ops that enforce the United States' global hegemony in return for getting them back out on the street faster Amanda Waller has always been a villain.
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Aug 18, 2021 00:34
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reignonyourparade posted:Apart from batman you've basically got a whole list of people who some writers like to write as Hard Men Making Hard Decisions While Hard. Again, that is the result of lovely writing. The entire point of Suicide Squad isn't that it is supposed to be a death squad. It is that it is a squad of people who are sent on impossible suicidal missions. The villain version was originally comprised of "You can volunteer for this danger mission in exchange for a reduced sentence" and originally debuted fighting against Darkseid's invasion. If you're going to argue "Well, the idea of a dangerous mission squad is unacceptable" that's fine but we're right back to the X-Men having had multiple of those.
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Aug 18, 2021 00:38
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ImpAtom posted:Again, that is the result of lovely writing. The entire point of Suicide Squad isn't that it is supposed to be a death squad. It is that it is a squad of people who are sent on impossible suicidal missions. The villain version was originally comprised of "You can volunteer for this danger mission in exchange for a reduced sentence" and originally debuted fighting against Darkseid's invasion. What you call "lovely writing" I instead call "literally any examination of the premise whatsoever." To me the tame version is the lovely writing.
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Aug 18, 2021 00:43
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Again, the whole Guy Who Makes The Tough Calls thing is just an edgelord aesthetic based on poo poo like 24 and Tom Clancy or whatever, not an actual set of behaviors. Batman kind of fits into that mold at times, but I don't think it makes sense to tar all superheroes with that brush or even Batman himself 100% of the time.
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Aug 18, 2021 00:44
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reignonyourparade posted:What you call "lovely writing" I instead call "literally any examination of the premise whatsoever." To me the tame version is the lovely writing. There are literally multiple ongoing well regarded comics about the specific premise. This isn't a hypothetical. Amanda Waller the character wouldn't exist without those runs in any meaningful form. Arist posted:Again, the whole Guy Who Makes The Tough Calls thing is just an edgelord aesthetic based on poo poo like 24 and Tom Clancy or whatever, not an actual set of behaviors. Batman kind of fits into that mold at times, but I don't think it makes sense to tar all superheroes with that brush or even Batman himself 100% of the time. Why not? Again this isn't out of the blue. A major part of the interaction between Batman and Waller is that they are dangerously alike, with the major difference between Batman is an incredibly wealthy white dude with the power to do what he wants and Amanda Waller is a portly black single woman who had to fight desperately hard to get the power to try to save the world. Both are portrayed as incredible hardasses while occasionally showing softer sides and both are shown to be perfectly willing to sacrifice themselves if it comes down to it. The characters have been compared on multiple occasions and it's almost universally in the "You know you two are almost identical, right" way. I mean hell there's a reason the big Batman Beyond epic ending involved Amanda Waller. Even if I hated the actual plot it was about the relationship between Waller and Batman and why Waller was willing to go so far to keep a Batman around. The two characters get tied together a lot because they are basically a perfect set of "very similar and yet different in key ways" characters who can argue and fight while still effectively working towards the same goals. Writing off Amanda Waller as just "HARD WOMAN MAKING HARD DECISIONS" is such a simplification of the character's actual role in the comics she was a major part of that it feels ridiculous. It's like writing off Spider-Man as "cliche nerd power fantasy" which is both accurate and doesn't actually say anything meaningful . ImpAtom fucked around with this message at 01:07 on Aug 18, 2021 |
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Aug 18, 2021 00:58
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ilikedirt posted:Yeah but punisher is cool af, sooooo Yeah that's why 90% of pickup trucks across America have his logo stuck to them, often with blue lives stripes in them for some reason.
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Aug 18, 2021 01:51
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The difference in these characters is the degree to which they're willing to be hard. Like it doesn't matter how hard Batman is, he doesn't put bombs into people's heads and then threaten to blow up the bombs if people don't do what he wants, so comparing him to Waller in this context just feels like the thousands of Netflix Marvel villains who keep going "We're not so different, you and I!" to all the Netflix Marvel heroes all time despite the fact that we can very easily see just how completely different they are by every measurable definition. Like sure there can be comparisons between characters, and it gets even muddier when you consider different interpretations of characters across mediums, but saying that Bruce Wayne and Amanda Waller would be the same overall person if not for their racial and economic status is a very specious idea. Bruce doesn't put bombs in people's heads. Right off the bat  that's gonna be a pretty big distinction.Could Bruce Wayne theoretically have become the sort of person who might put bombs in people's heads if you change his backstory a bit? Yeah sure why not, a big enough divergence in anyone's history could turn anyone into anything, but then he wouldn't be Bruce Wayne in the same way that he is right now.
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Aug 18, 2021 02:26
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