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Can't believe moon knight killed the scarlet witch. Gonna be one helluva crossover
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Aug 19, 2021 19:12
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Skwirl posted:I sorta think Carol Danvers had to have died at some point, but that might just be me thinking that about most characters, I couldn't tell you when. Reed and Sue and the kids were presumed dead after Secret Wars (the Hickman one), but that was long after she was on the Avengers. Carol "died" at one point in Brian Reed's Ms. Marvel series during Dark Reign and disappeared from her own book for a short while, but iirc this wasn't acknowledged at all in Bendis' Avengers run or anywhere else, so I'm not sure that really counts.
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Aug 19, 2021 20:37
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Doesn't resurrection only work for mutants because Cerebro was designed to only back up mutants? That's a pretty lame excuse to non-mutants but it could be how Krakoa explains away why only humans get resurrected. Also explains why the Wanda and Pietro backups stopped once it realized they were human
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Aug 19, 2021 21:12
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As far as I understand, there's nothing stopping Cerebro from also backing up human minds along with mutant minds. It's designed to find mutants, but I believe it can find humans too, right? It would take Professor X longer to do so because of the sheer volume, but it can theoretically be done; it's not as if someone's mind is genetically-coded. The only reason that Wanda, Pietro, and Franklin (and maybe Doreen?  ) had backups was because Xavier, while using Cerebro, thought "Hey these people are mutants, therefore I will include them in the backup process I'm doing right now."The bigger hurdle would be having on hand the genetic...information? Samples?...of every single living human on the planet. Remember that the other part of the resurrection process involved Mr. Sinister having a genetic catalogue of every single mutant. Somehow.
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Aug 19, 2021 21:38
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BrianWilly posted:As far as I understand, there's nothing stopping Cerebro from also backing up human minds along with mutant minds. It's designed to find mutants, but I believe it can find humans too, right? It would take Professor X longer to do so because of the sheer volume, but it can theoretically be done; it's not as if someone's mind is genetically-coded. The only reason that Wanda, Pietro, and Franklin (and maybe Doreen? Somehow? Sinister having a genetic back-up of every mutant is the part of the process that makes the most sense.
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Aug 19, 2021 21:42
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Basically, the resurrection protocol has two parts: a brain backup, and a genetic sample. There's nothing to either of those that couldn't be done on non-mutants other than that Cerebro only backs up mutants and they don't have the generic material of humans (as noted, they have the mutants thanks to Sinister). So yeah, they could (and this is made explicit in Trial of Magneto), but they're not.
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Aug 19, 2021 21:46
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I think there are plausible enough solutions to most of the mechanical problems of offering it to humanity aside from The Five sort of bottlenecking the process with human limitations and a queue a million people long. Which is, y'know, a pretty significant issue.
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Aug 19, 2021 21:53
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Abroham Lincoln posted:I think there are plausible enough solutions to most of the mechanical problems of offering it to humanity aside from The Five sort of bottlenecking the process with human limitations and a queue a million people long. 16 million mutants were on Genosha when it was blown up.
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Aug 19, 2021 21:57
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Another major contributor for the Krakoans not resurrecting humans is, y'know, they always trying to genocide them. It seems counterproductive to the idea of "we need this as a method to ensure the future existence of our species" by using that method to bring back people that are always trying to end your species. Also, this goes back to an earlier comment about Moira being the architect of the Krakoa idea... she wasn't! And per the last issue of HoXPoX, it was Chuck who figured out the resurrection thing. We still don't know what contributions Moira has made outside of a bunch of lives that end poorly as a guide for things not to try.
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Aug 19, 2021 22:00
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Also, it's not the first time a bunch of mutants lived peacefully on a chunk of Krakoa. There's the whole run of Aaron's Wolverine and the X-Men where a mutant offspring of Krakoa was the school grounds. Really, Wolverine came up with this idea.
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Aug 19, 2021 22:05
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Skwirl posted:16 million mutants were on Genosha when it was blown up. I meant it like a figurative number, but yeah. It's an impossibly long queue as it is and they haven't shown any significant means of speeding it up.
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Aug 19, 2021 22:07
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danbanana posted:Another major contributor for the Krakoans not resurrecting humans is, y'know, they always trying to genocide them. Are they, though? I don't feel like "humans" are trying to genocide mutants in the same way that "Americans" didn't do the various things their government does. Most humans have literally zero input into what ORCHIS is doing or the creation of Sentinel robots. Honestly, I feel like a major weak point of this era is that everybody in it is allowed to say "mutants are not human" and there's no pushback.
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Aug 19, 2021 22:22
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Abroham Lincoln posted:I meant it like a figurative number, but yeah. It's an impossibly long queue as it is and they haven't shown any significant means of speeding it up. They have backups for everyone in the five (I mean, other mutants who could take their place, not backups like how there's a back up of every mutant) in case one of the five die, so they could theoretically be doing this twice as fast.
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Aug 19, 2021 22:26
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Rand Brittain posted:Are they, though? What government, what superhero group, has taken any steps to intervene on mutants' behalf and fight for their rights? Hell, Orchis is only as capable as they are because half the anti-mutant poo poo they have is based off work funded by human governments. (And yes, people are responsible for the actions of those they choose to govern them. A Latverian citizen could wash their hands of Doom's actions because he's a dictator, but that don't apply to most of Marvel' humans).
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Aug 19, 2021 22:41
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Rand Brittain posted:I don't feel like "humans" are trying to genocide mutants in the same way that "Americans" didn't do the various things their government does. Most humans have literally zero input into what ORCHIS is doing or the creation of Sentinel robots. I mean... "we" elected the people that, say, invaded Afghanistan and Iraq so while not directly "my" fault, I don't think an Afghani would be too concerned about the subtleties of that argument, and with reason. "Only the leadership and military industrial complex are trying to kill mutants, not ALL humans!" isn't a very good argument, imo.
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Aug 19, 2021 22:42
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Adder Moray posted:What government, what superhero group, has taken any steps to intervene on mutants' behalf and fight for their rights? Yeah, this has come up a lot in the Krakoan Era and... honestly, it's not entirely clear why every mutant wouldn't just try and kick the poo poo out of Cap or Stark or Reed at every chance. So I'm glad this internal circling the wagons around Mutantdom and gently caress humans is actually being presented, warts and all.
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Aug 19, 2021 22:47
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Again, Genosha is worse than any real life genocide or terrorist act by a significant factor, and no one besides mutants even seemed to notice it. I understand that's largely just because of how comics work, but I also understand a later writer using that as gristle for a story.
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Aug 19, 2021 22:54
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danbanana posted:I mean... "we" elected the people that, say, invaded Afghanistan and Iraq so while not directly "my" fault, I don't think an Afghani would be too concerned about the subtleties of that argument, and with reason. "I" was a child when that happened and in the twenty years since I don't recall having a meaningful chance to elect someone who would have reversed that decision. Most humans, even in a democracy, have distressingly small ability to choose their leadership! This is where the whole shared universe starts to make everything fall down, though, because most non-mutant titles are not written under the assumption that mutant genocides are going on and Captain America is ignoring them.
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Aug 19, 2021 22:56
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Yeah, like the Doylist reason is that mutant-focused comics are kind of a cousin line to non-mutant-focused comics at Marvel, even if there is still some overlap. It would be interesting to introduce a Watsonian reason, because even if they might be standoffish in some cases, most of the big heroes would probably at least try to stop anti-mutant crimes and conspiracies.
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Aug 19, 2021 23:20
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If I were a mutant I would not try to kick Iron Man's rear end, because I'd still be tiny and frail and my power would probably be like my teeth can turn into autumn leaves or something. I would just go to Krakoa and be allowed to hav e fun in a bower all day and not worry about it anymore.
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Aug 19, 2021 23:25
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most humans don't actively participate in the ongoing attempts at exterminating all mutants. they simply do nothing, instead. it's always "someone should do something about those dangerous mutants" and they never seem to mind when that someone is a nightmarish cyborg bigot or that something is a concentration camp run by giant robots. due to how the comics lines work, this complete indifference to the life and death of mutants includes captain america.
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Aug 19, 2021 23:42
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do cap and them show up in the x books to help out often?
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Aug 19, 2021 23:50
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site posted:do cap and them show up in the x books to help out often? Nope.
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Aug 20, 2021 00:07
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I mean...it does very periodically happen, like in Tom Taylor's X-Men: Red, because there's really nothing to stop it from happening other than X-writers not making it happen. X-Men: Red was really good.
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Aug 20, 2021 00:10
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BrianWilly posted:I mean...it does very periodically happen, like in Tom Taylor's X-Men: Red, because there's really nothing to stop it from happening other than X-writers not making it happen. That's one. Name a second time it happens.
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Aug 20, 2021 00:17
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What would probably be less dissonant would be 'yeah, of course we know Cap would back us up... he's one guy, even if he's pretty persuasive. And Richards would probably help us, maybe.. if he's not busy. The Hulk would probably protect mutants... if he was near some being actively oppressed. We can't rely on this when we're being targeted like this.' But ultimately it's Watsonian answers for Doylist problems.
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Aug 20, 2021 00:18
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Skwirl posted:That's one. Name a second time it happens.
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Aug 20, 2021 00:20
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BrianWilly posted:Spider-Man taught at the school! He's a menace.
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Aug 20, 2021 00:23
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Carol would definitely help some mutants if it meant she could murder some Skrulls.
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Aug 20, 2021 00:29
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The separation of the X-Men from other Marvel characters is more a product of the writers themselves just wanting to write X-Men stories and not include other superheroes. It's clear because it doesn't really work the other way around. X-Men and mutants pop up often in other books. The stories written in X-Books are just much more insular and don't lend themselves to having Captain America or Ghost Rider or Black Panther drop in.
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Aug 20, 2021 00:35
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I've a really hard time buying that no one in the outside world has any idea about the resurrection protocols. It's not treated like a secret on Krakoa, hell it's probably one of the first thing that any new mutant that arrives on the island gets told about, also can't forget about the crucible. A secret that an entire nation knows about ain't much of a secret. I would assume that there are mutants on the island that keep contact with the rest of the world, and it wouldn't take much for someone to slip up for that information to reach anyone keeping close tabs on the island. Why would for example Pete Wisdom not tell his bosses about this (well, before he got screwed by them)?
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Aug 20, 2021 01:31
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danbanana posted:I mean... "we" elected the people that, say, invaded Afghanistan and Iraq so while not directly "my" fault, I don't think an Afghani would be too concerned about the subtleties of that argument, and with reason. Aghani is the money. The people are Afghans.
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Aug 20, 2021 01:54
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You can extend this to practically any scenario for comics. Superman, Green Lantern, the Flash, Wonder Woman, etc. should get batteries thrown at them in Gotham City because they never stop the Joker or Bane or Riddler from killing hundreds of innocent bystanders. Every hero in New York City should get spat upon for not trying to stop the Punisher more often. Blade has to hate how he's the only person who cares about vampires. More comics should be my favorite character calling other characters fuckin' pieces of poo poo because Spider-Man is busy getting haunted by a hundred ghosts and six Sinister Sixes and Speedball is too much of a stuck up prick to bounce in and lend a hand.
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Aug 20, 2021 01:55
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Hey now, don't go draggin' my boy Speedball into this. Robbie's had a tough enough time as it is.
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Aug 20, 2021 02:00
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thetoughestbean posted:Aghani is the money. The people are Afghans. My bad! Thanks. I'll remember that. Google seems to say there's some controversy in using the term for the people so I'll avoid the controversy. Also, no one is arguing that Captain America should be spending his days testifying against Sentinel manufacturing or only fighting The Right to show his allyship. But the current X-regime coalescing mutantdom around that identity seems to bug people and... That's weird to me. Apply literal genocidal acts against any people and this is a likely outcome. The tension and even outright rejection of the Avengers and FF makes sense in that light. Dr. Doom crying over 9/11 and no one lifting a finger for 16 million Genoshans!
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Aug 20, 2021 02:08
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Edge & Christian posted:You can extend this to practically any scenario for comics. Superman, Green Lantern, the Flash, Wonder Woman, etc. should get batteries thrown at them in Gotham City because they never stop the Joker or Bane or Riddler from killing hundreds of innocent bystanders.
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Aug 20, 2021 02:20
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Adder Moray posted:Gotham is literally cursed. You send a Superman sized solution, you get a Superman sized problem. Which is why only street level heroes and occult people operate in the city. Is that canon?
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Aug 20, 2021 02:22
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danbanana posted:My bad! Thanks. I'll remember that. Google seems to say there's some controversy in using the term for the people so I'll avoid the controversy. I think the part that gets uncomfortable is the idea that, say, Galactus is having one of his bad days, rocks up to Earth for dindins... the X-Men just jump in their magic flower portals to Mars and gently caress off to let the humans all die?
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Aug 20, 2021 02:25
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danbanana posted:Is that canon? It is, though I'd have to look into which of the many books on the occult history and many curses on Gotham mentions the City's 'immune response' specifically. There are a lot of books and a lot of curses on that city. To be specific: Gotham is built on top of an ancient Warlock's tomb, the world's largest hellmouth, and the site where a Native American shaman slaughtered his own tribe, was killed, and cursed the land. Is adjacent to Slaughter Swamp. Contains the demon/hyper-adapter Barbatos. And has an additional curse that forces the ghost of anyone killed unjustly to linger forever (and is therefore filled with ghosts). Those ghosts once fought The Spectre, literal avatar of capital 'G' God's wrath, to a stand still. But I'm getting off topic. Point is, bullshit as it may be, DC does have an in universe justification for why other superheroes don't involve themselves in Gotham more often. Adder Moray fucked around with this message at 02:33 on Aug 20, 2021 |
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Aug 20, 2021 02:30
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Gaz-L posted:I think the part that gets uncomfortable is the idea that, say, Galactus is having one of his bad days, rocks up to Earth for dindins... the X-Men just jump in their magic flower portals to Mars and gently caress off to let the humans all die? I mean, the part that gets uncomfortable is that everybody who is actually in charge of Krakoa is giving off a fairly clear, if subtextual, vibe of "we are going to establish mutant supremacy and make non-mutants into a subjugated class; we look forward to doing to you as you did unto us". In that context, regarding humanity as a single entity that can bear communal guilt for the creation of Sentinel robots becomes extremely sinister.
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Aug 20, 2021 02:36
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