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egg tats posted:I think the medium plays into this somewhat, and framing moreso. when we meet dalinar, he's well past his lowest point, and he's already working on improving himself. we also spend a lot of time inside dalinars head in a way that just can't really happen with a Manga or an anime. up until the current arc of MHA, we only really knew endeavour by the way he influenced his children. by which I mean the way he abused them! dalinar isn't shown doing anything, like, evil until book 3, and even then only then in flashback. we basically meet endeavour by his kid telling us how he got his zuko scar yeah, exactly. the beginning of Dalinar's story is effectively "this guy Anakin used to be known as Darth Vader, and everyone is absolutely terrified of that guy, but we're in Anakin's head and we know he's legitimately a decent person trying to do good now " (and also we don't learn any details about the massacres he did until book three) we have access to the unique, objective personal knowledge that this change is real and we're left wondering just how hosed up was this guy? with few answers until we've spent a ton of time with him eke out fucked around with this message at 02:25 on Aug 15, 2021 |
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Aug 15, 2021 02:22
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Imagine trying to redeem Sadeas in book 4 instead of what we got.
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Aug 15, 2021 02:32
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It helps that the contrast between Dalinar and the rest of Alethi society is so stark, which is clear from the very first book. Sadeas massacred the Parshendi who were trying to surrender, and it's portrayed as a totally normal thing in his society. The other Alethi always talk about how Dalinar has gone soft, while extolling abhorrent behavior as virtuous, and question his sanity when he goes "perhaps this senseless killing has gone long enough, why don't we try to negotiate, or if those fail, try a decisive push on the enemy's stronghold to end this war?". Dalinar is the only one among the highprinces who can be seen as both sensible, and morally good according to our modern views. Additionally, while the Blackthorn was a horrible monster, at least some of the worst things he did, he did under the direct, targeted influence of basically the god of hatred, who was grooming Dalinar to become his personal champion among mortals. And from a religious/spiritual perspective, it definitely helps that Dalinar is framed from the start as a sinner who's obviously/apparently succeeded at his quest to reform himself to earn redemption. At first it looks like it was "only" for being drunk on his brother's fateful night, and for being a standard, if particularly fearful, Alethi warlord. The whole extent of his crimes was definitely surprising to me. But then this arc even culminated with him gaining his wife's forgiveness at the end of Oathbringer. The whole series is set up to frame Dalinar in the most sympathetic light possible, imho. It's not surprising that he doesn't get vitriolic hatred from the fandom.
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Aug 15, 2021 05:51
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It's interesting that even in flashbacks to Dalinar's Glory Days his actions don't feel too glorified. We see it through his eyes, and the things wrong with it aren't exactly spelled out, but even in parts where he's being "heroic" something feels off. I'm not sure if it's something about the writing itself or the contrast with the person we know he'll become. Puts a harsher light on things like Sadeas's comment that he "missed the old Dalinar" back in book 1.
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Aug 15, 2021 06:21
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It helps that he has the Blackthorn mantle/name he can lump all the bad stuff onto, but we know him as Dalinar. It also helps to know his mental state was affected non-volitionally by the Thrill, which is like pure adrenaline and rabies and bath salts, so of course he's going to commit outrageous acts or violence.
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Aug 15, 2021 19:52
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I feel like him being manipulated by a god was a cop out. His redemption is much more poignant if he is just a huge piece of poo poo to begin with. But nope, he’s still a piece of poo poo, but just might not have been quite such a genocidal one.
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Aug 19, 2021 05:32
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Invalid Validation posted:I feel like him being manipulated by a god was a cop out. His redemption is much more poignant if he is just a huge piece of poo poo to begin with. But nope, he’s still a piece of poo poo, but just might not have been quite such a genocidal one. But that's basically the conclusion he came to as his redemption in Oathbringer. It's literally 'even if I was being tempted I made those decisions and I have to take responsibility.' Like he goes on about how he can't grow and become better until he acknowledges that he was a piece of poo poo.
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Aug 19, 2021 09:05
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I also saw that as part of the whole accepting ones pain, and how Dalinar accepted the pain of all the things he'd done, and on the opposite end Moash refused to accept his pain and gave it to Odium so he could be guilt free without dong any work on his part.
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Aug 19, 2021 12:12
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I guess that’s true. I just think it’s a little cheap.
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Aug 19, 2021 12:38
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Would you say that it was an invalid validation of their past actions?
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Aug 19, 2021 13:20
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Invalid Validation posted:I feel like him being manipulated by a god was a cop out. His redemption is much more poignant if he is just a huge piece of poo poo to begin with. But nope, he’s still a piece of poo poo, but just might not have been quite such a genocidal one. He spent the first two books without any major influence and still working on a genocide. It was socially acceptable to the alethi though because they are racist as hell.
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Aug 19, 2021 13:59
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Tunicate posted:He spent the first two books without any major influence and still working on a genocide. It was socially acceptable to the alethi though because they are racist as hell. No major influences other than the unmade that is basically bloodlust incarnate.
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Aug 19, 2021 16:38
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Nah he wasn't really feeling the thrill anymore
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Aug 19, 2021 18:32
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I've enjoyed catching up on the thread - I last read it just before Rhythm of War came out- I haven't read the entire thing, but reading some of the discussion as that book progressed has been fun. I have no experience at all with anything else in the Cosmere, but I don't know if I want to go through the entire mistborn series right now. Is Warbreaker a good spot to get some more fantasy reading in? If I start with Wax and Wayne will I be lost having skipped the first 3 in Mistborn?
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Aug 21, 2021 10:36
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Nah, you'll be fine, though starting with Wax and Wayne will spoil some big things about the original Mistborn trilogy. I'm sure some people will be like NO READ THE ORIGINAL FIRST but I think you'd experience it like getting the back story of characters who are presented as legends. But Warbreaker is free and also good, so you know. Either would work.
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Aug 21, 2021 11:58
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road potato posted:I've enjoyed catching up on the thread - I last read it just before Rhythm of War came out- I haven't read the entire thing, but reading some of the discussion as that book progressed has been fun. I have no experience at all with anything else in the Cosmere, but I don't know if I want to go through the entire mistborn series right now. Is Warbreaker a good spot to get some more fantasy reading in? If I start with Wax and Wayne will I be lost having skipped the first 3 in Mistborn? I can't imagine reading Wax & Wayne without reading the first Mistborn trilogy. A lot of it's appeal comes from seeing just how far the previous world has changed, while still retaining many of it's unique features. You would also totally spoil the plot of the original trilogy, which would be a shame, because it's a fantastic work. And if you're into epic fantasy like Stormlight, then it makes little sense to me to skip the very epic story set in the Final Empire, and go to the much less epic, but arguably better character focused Wax & Wayne books. Warbreaker is indeed a good way to get in more fantasy reading, and is certainly the book most connected to the Stormlight Archive saga. It is arguably required reading before starting Words of Radiance, or at the very least before Oathbreaker. You will immediately recognize some characters, so I can only recommend you to read it. If you don't want to go for the whole Mistborn trilogy after reading Warbreaker, you don't need to. The Final Empire works great as a standalone novel, you don't need to read Well of Ascension and Hero of Ages to get some closure.
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Aug 21, 2021 12:02
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Way of Kings done and drat did it pick up in the last 20% of the book, like all Sanderson books, but man it was so confusing for the first half. I’m generally pretty good at picking up his overarching themes but it took a while for everything to click. Not sure if it’s because Stormlight is his big epic or something else but I’m liking it so far.
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Aug 21, 2021 16:24
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the way of kings, to me, was largely Sanderson saying "yes ok I'm genuinely listening, I can write about contemporary topics and get it right" like, TWoK and to a degree WoR are proof that Sanderson can engage deeply with people very unlike him, listen open minded, and represent them well
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Aug 21, 2021 16:30
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I still think the way he represents Shallan makes no sense but I'm assured by an acquaintance that it really be like that some days, which I guess means that I'm the one who has more to learn
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Aug 21, 2021 16:33
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Potato Salad posted:I still think the way he represents Shallan makes no sense but I'm assured by an acquaintance that it really be like that some days, which I guess means that I'm the one who has more to learn Are the characters in Stormlight supposed to be progressive or something? I don’t really get that vibe outside the clear socialist themes of “listen to and empathize with the every day worker/person” concept but the whole sexy safehand thing is so loving funny and dumb.
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Aug 21, 2021 16:43
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getting hornt up about exposed ankles is funny and dumb and equally a real thing, the point is that cultural sexual taboos are rather arbitrary
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Aug 21, 2021 16:47
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eke out posted:getting hornt up about exposed ankles is funny and dumb and equally a real thing, the point is that cultural sexual taboos are rather arbitrary yeah I get that but being turned on by one hand and not the other is funny. It’s like if women let their left breast hang out but people didn’t care because they actually want to peep the right one. I bet the people whose boon is their vision is mirrored are in heaven lol.
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Aug 21, 2021 16:54
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Potato Salad posted:I still think the way he represents Shallan makes no sense but I'm assured by an acquaintance that it really be like that some days, which I guess means that I'm the one who has more to learn I do like how he threw in that line about Shallan talking to some Ardents and being like "what I have isn't like the actual disease some people have this is some magic poo poo"
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Aug 21, 2021 16:54
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Louisgod posted:Are the characters in Stormlight supposed to be progressive or something? I don’t really get that vibe outside the clear socialist themes of “listen to and empathize with the every day worker/person” concept but the whole sexy safehand thing is so loving funny and dumb. I don't think that the characters are supposed to be progressive or whatever - More like, the characters' challenges are made as true to life as Sanderson can swing it, and so long as he's soliciting genuine feedback and trying hard, it's pretty good so far he's doing a good enough job that the strikeouts really stand out also, seconded that Vorin Safe Hand Horniness™ is really fun in a dumb way. it's so on the nose, but this is the same author who made Wax & Wane the names of main characters in a story about rapid change
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Aug 21, 2021 17:45
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socialsecurity posted:I do like how he threw in that line about Shallan talking to some Ardents and being like "what I have isn't like the actual disease some people have this is some magic poo poo" so I have an artist friend and sanderson nut who does legit shift in and out of a whole slew of masks, and their take is like if you take their very real, very fluid sense of self and make each mask more real through something like Forgery, that's what Shallan seems to have - in their opinion a very real problem, augmented by the reality-twisting effects of human perception projecting changes into the cognitive and spiritual planes it's a bit loving abstract and that makes it REALLY hard to see what's going on Potato Salad fucked around with this message at 17:52 on Aug 21, 2021 |
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Aug 21, 2021 17:50
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Shallan is probably the weakest character as far as I’m concerned. Kaladins origin story was so good and Shallans seemed like he figured he just needed another Shamalayan twist cause that’s what he’s been doing with all the major characters so far. Just wish he could figure out how to make the middle of his books better cause they drag on too long.
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Aug 21, 2021 17:56
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I actually really liked the backstory for Shallan and the initial twist was genuinely surprising. It was frustrating as hell to have her go through the exact same growth cycle in books 3 and 4 though.
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Aug 21, 2021 19:22
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I thought Shallan was interesting in the first book. Her arc wasn't as tense as Kaladin's, but there was still intrigue (though I really, really didn't like her first few chapters of cringey dialogue). Second book was also good, and the scene in the chasm was an all-timer. It was when the books started to really focus on her multiple personalities in Oathbringer and Rhythm that I got really tired of her. Her introspective moments really highlight Brandon's flaw in regards with repetitive prose, and I swear there was a resolution with her at the end of Oathbringer that Rhythm of War just pretends didn't happen.
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Aug 22, 2021 02:12
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Both Shallan and Kaladin have a problem of reverting most of their character growth between books. I really loved Kaladins growth in the first book and his origin story was genuinely great. You could tell he blew his load on it and needed to start over to give him something to work on again in subsequent books.
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Aug 22, 2021 02:33
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Louisgod posted:but the whole sexy safehand thing is so loving funny and dumb. That whole thing made sense when I learned that he lives and teaches in Utah, and is a member of the Latter Day Saints church. It's clear that he knows about and is critical of arbitrary enforcement of specific hierarchical gender roles and taboos because of his lived experience. I used to live an an area with a lot of Mormons and knew a bunch of Mormon families, and that safehand stuff totally tracks.
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Aug 22, 2021 03:02
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road potato posted:That whole thing made sense when I learned that he lives and teaches in Utah, and is a member of the Latter Day Saints church. It's clear that he knows about and is critical of arbitrary enforcement of specific hierarchical gender roles and taboos because of his lived experience. I used to live an an area with a lot of Mormons and knew a bunch of Mormon families, and that safehand stuff totally tracks. Right the idea in and of itself makes a lot of sense when you take mormonism’s prudish innocence into consideration (good friend of mine’s grandparents did the whole secret handshake at the temple in Utah, secret underwear and all), I just find it funny that one bare hand and not both are seen as scandalous. It’d be like me letting my balls hang out but I cover the right with a cloth.
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Aug 22, 2021 05:50
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Eh, Arabic culture has the whole left-hand/right-hand manners system, so it doesn't seem too wild to me.
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Aug 22, 2021 17:42
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Invalid Validation posted:Shallan is probably the weakest character as far as I’m concerned. Kaladins origin story was so good and Shallans seemed like he figured he just needed another Shamalayan twist cause that’s what he’s been doing with all the major characters so far. Just wish he could figure out how to make the middle of his books better cause they drag on too long. Shallan was the worst character until RoW. Now she’s solidly in second place and I have a hard time believing the new champion will be dethroned. At least I hope not because said character is worse than dead weight.
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Aug 23, 2021 04:53
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Evil Fluffy posted:Shallan was the worst character until RoW. Now she’s solidly in second place and I have a hard time believing the new champion will be dethroned. At least I hope not because said character is worse than dead weight. Venli?
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Aug 23, 2021 06:06
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Invalid Validation posted:Both Shallan and Kaladin have a problem of reverting most of their character growth between books. I really loved Kaladins growth in the first book and his origin story was genuinely great. You could tell he blew his load on it and needed to start over to give him something to work on again in subsequent books. Crossing realistic depictions of recurring mental health disorders with anime power creep yields strange results.
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Aug 24, 2021 00:22
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Pennsylvanian posted:Eh, Arabic culture has the whole left-hand/right-hand manners system, so it doesn't seem too wild to me. The safe hand is the wiping hand and the Alethi are just super into scat.
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Aug 24, 2021 03:56
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Invalid Validation posted:Both Shallan and Kaladin have a problem of reverting most of their character growth between books. I really loved Kaladins growth in the first book and his origin story was genuinely great. You could tell he blew his load on it and needed to start over to give him something to work on again in subsequent books. You know what, I think I'm actually looking for excuses to give the author, but the idea that traumas and problems are a two steps forward, one step back kind of cycle is suddenly very very relatable and real to me that being said, I don't think Sanderson is writing it that way
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Aug 24, 2021 13:49
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Potato Salad posted:You know what, I think I'm actually looking for excuses to give the author, but the idea that traumas and problems are a two steps forward, one step back kind of cycle is suddenly very very relatable and real to me I started to write a similar post but deleted it the other day  My suspicion was that, at least with Kaladin, Sanderson is trying to be cognizant of the fact that depression often times isn't just like, <make a realization / shift in perspective> <never be depressed again>. Nah, that poo poo is recurring for many many people.
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Aug 24, 2021 13:53
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Sab669 posted:I started to write a similar post but deleted it the other day
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Aug 24, 2021 15:20
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Ho ho ho! Now I have a spanreed!!
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Aug 24, 2021 15:28
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