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mawarannahr posted:lol. no. 
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Aug 23, 2021 19:29
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i'm not checking the news on self-driving vehicles daily but i have never once seen anything that suggests self-driving vehicles might be a reality anywhere but in the Bay Area on predefined routes in perfect weather conditions. it's more of a joke than the f35. has there been anything new since that was the state of affairs?
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Aug 23, 2021 19:40
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mawarannahr posted:i'm not checking the news on self-driving vehicles daily but i have never once seen anything that suggests self-driving vehicles might be a reality anywhere but in the Bay Area on predefined routes in perfect weather conditions. it's more of a joke than the f35. has there been anything new since that was the state of affairs? here's a recent video showing how driverless cars are currently on the road in Phoenix: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yjztvddhZmI. autonomous vehicles will reduce the number of accidents and fatalities/injuries, but only if most or all cars are autonomous. on the other hand, lol Phoenix. Wide suburban thoroughfares and clement weather. I'd like to see how they do in Boston in winter.
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Aug 23, 2021 19:54
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There's a proven design for an electrical car that can be automated easily. It's called a train.
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Aug 23, 2021 19:56
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raspurtin posted:here's a recent video showing how driverless cars are currently on the road in Phoenix: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yjztvddhZmI. thanks for linking a waymo-propaganda video explaining how the self-driving car is just like a self-driving elevator. very helpful. self-driving cars have been "right around the corner" since 2001 and the only self-driving car that's going to be right around the corner is one slamming into a ped
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Aug 23, 2021 20:02
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it wasn't really supposed to be a serious proposal but I don't know how else you unfuck the transit situation in rural America, and personally I like living in the woods and find cities loud and stressful and incompatible with maple syrup production and large outdoor weed plants. You could solve a lot of VTs problems with trains on a schedule if you were willing to build out to every tiny 800 person town, but you still need last leg of some kind. I had never thought about cars too critically before working at a dealership group doing IT poo poo for a year and a half, a decade and a half ago. It was informative because I jumped straight from a cozy nonprofit that was trying to improve nursing rehab units, right into some of the most toxic capitalism I can imagine being able to implement on such a petty scale. The basic model seemed to be talking people who could afford a Yaris into thinking they could afford a Lexus at 23% APR on a 72 month loan and then repossessing after 14 months and selling used to the next rear end in a top hat who walked in. Salesmen culture was identical to high school culture and people dropped N words at that place like it was no big deal. Greasy worn porn magazines in the bathroom at one of the dealership mechanic bay bathrooms. Exactly what you'd expect, more or less. Also the swarm of proprietary technology companies that exist in the periphery of the auto industry seems uniquely dumb, from one-hit-wonder purveyors of some tool you need for one job on one thing and it's 900% what you'd expect to pay, to the automakers themselves being increasingly secretive with both consumers and the actual technicians doing the work who now usually diagnose things and adjust settings using specialized computers talking to the car computer through some crypto or just undocumented protocol. Before COVID I used to leave home like three times a week; twice with kiddo and once to shop and do something social. Now I do curbside pickup once a week and have this really expensive metal box that sits on my hill obscuring some trees literally 98% of the time, and I have to do all this paperwork to keep it current with the state etc. If someone solved the problem well enough that I could live here and not have a car and not have any horrible life disruptions, I would voluntarily give up the 2-wheel death trap "pleasure" vehicle no problem, it only works like 6 months a year anyway.
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Aug 23, 2021 20:07
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i never said it was around the corner, but the advance of automated machinery (including cars) is constantly progressive. every new car built today has a multitude of semi-autonomous features that would seem like science fiction in 2001 (autonomous car functionality goes back much further than the 2001 darpa attempt, though). every single automaker believes that full autonomy is possible, it is only a question of development and testing, not technology. in my field of work (industrial automation), machine learning and extremely high computation cycles have made even the most difficult tasks routine to automate in the past 5-10 years. i don't believe self-driving cars to be the solution to the problems car culture has created - that is the fault of poor urban planning and automotive industrial titans destroying viable alternatives for their own profit (TRAINS) - but i do think they are inevitable, and so does everyone who designs and builds cars
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Aug 23, 2021 20:25
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hot cocoa on the couch posted:i never said it was around the corner, but the advance of automated machinery (including cars) is constantly progressive. every new car built today has a multitude of semi-autonomous features that would seem like science fiction in 2001 (autonomous car functionality goes back much further than the 2001 darpa attempt, though). every single automaker believes that full autonomy is possible, it is only a question of development and testing, not technology. in my field of work (industrial automation), machine learning and extremely high computation cycles have made even the most difficult tasks routine to automate in the past 5-10 years. i don't believe self-driving cars to be the solution to the problems car culture has created - that is the fault of poor urban planning and automotive industrial titans destroying viable alternatives for their own profit (TRAINS) - but i do think they are inevitable, and so does everyone who designs and builds cars Suppose they work. How does that really help anyone? You can replace a bit of labor input with capital. So what?
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Aug 23, 2021 20:33
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Kind of insane to accuse others of utopian thinking and then rant about fully autonomous cars lmao *sent from my tesla as at it crashes into the nearest emergency vehicle
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Aug 23, 2021 20:35
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hot cocoa on the couch posted:but i do think they are inevitable, and so does everyone who designs and builds cars i don't. i think we'll see infrastructure and societal slow-quick climate-change collapse before any mass self-driving car that works 99.98% of the time. also a lot of places have bad roads, very complex intersections, and jam-packed streets where you gotta be aggressive if you want to get anywhere or else you'll just be sitting at the same light watching it turn green-red for 20 minute straight without being able to go unless you just gun it; or being aggressive in getting over to take an exit in jam-packed traffic (or hope someone is nice to your fancy techy self-driving car). sure phoenix where there's 10000 sf of asphalt per person on mega-wide 8 lane thoroughfares without any weather everywhere might, but dc/la/portland/seattle/sf/nyc/boston lol
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Aug 23, 2021 20:37
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i see your point. on the other hand, every single automaker has stopped production this year because of shortsighted profit seeking and inability to plan for the long term. as this happens, companies that bet on the wrong horse , like Toyota, are actively working to greenwash their failures so I think their hands are pretty full. my greatest doubt is that it seems unlikely we’ll have the productive capacity to build such a thing and deliver it to anyone but the richest if it ever becomes a reality. maybe China could pull it off eventually but the streets there are a much bigger challenge. it’s just some bs for rich people to talk about like gmo babies, epic space travel, and how le rosey has fallen from its heyday. Xaris posted:i don't. i think we'll see infrastructure and societal slow-quick climate-change collapse before any mass self-driving car that works 99.98% of the time. also a lot of places have bad roads, very complex intersections, and jam-packed streets where you gotta be aggressive if you want to get anywhere or else you'll just be sitting at the same light watching it turn green-red for 20 minute straight without being able to go unless you just gun it; or being aggressive in getting over to take an exit in jam-packed traffic (or hope someone is nice to your fancy techy self-driving car). the roads are probably going to be pretty hosed up. not sure i'd rule out the last infrastructure investment in america being some kind of non-functional autonomous driving signalization project though. mawarannahr has issued a correction as of 21:01 on Aug 23, 2021 |
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Aug 23, 2021 20:37
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Xaris posted:self-driving cars have been "right around the corner" since 2001 Nope. The HW tech and SW methods really started to mature in early-mid 2010s. 2000s DARPA Grand Challenge was there to point out where major gaps in tech were. hot cocoa on the couch posted:...but i do think they are inevitable, and so does everyone who designs and builds cars I think the people who aren't skeptical aren't so because there's enough investment $$ keeping optimism alive. Without full autonomy, I don't know if the desired ROI will be achieved. Not a car person but a systems eng/AI person - I'm pretty skeptical of any full autonomy on the roads at any point in the next ~2 decades. I agree that we'll continue to see incremental improvements but mixed human-AI roads and different driving cultures based on geography strain the learning problem and managing the liability of how systems manage edge cases will inhibit significant adoption. I hope to have to eat my hat, though.
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Aug 23, 2021 20:48
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Cabbages and Kings posted:If someone solved the problem well enough that I could live here and not have a car and not have any horrible life disruptions, I would voluntarily give up the 2-wheel death trap "pleasure" vehicle no problem, it only works like 6 months a year anyway. I think this is unfortunately unsolvable in North America without redoing rural/exurban development patterns overall. I spent a few months in a place in Denmark that was fairly low-density and agricultural on the whole, but housing still mostly clustered into slightly denser neighborhoods that were linked by bike path and quiet roads to town centers with train stations and shopping. This is a big infrastructural difference from something like a Wyoming cowtown where the center of town is itself diffuse and car-dependent. I guess you could start bootstrapping bike infrastructure, since there's a feedback loop of more people cycling -> quieter, safer roads -> more people cycling, but engineering a walkable/car-free town center in a car-dominated exurb is politically hard and people will fight it the whole way down
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Aug 23, 2021 20:51
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genericnick posted:Suppose they work. How does that really help anyone? You can replace a bit of labor input with capital. So what? again, i don't think it does, and again, i don't think it's the answer to the problems cars cause. i just think it's foolish to boldly claim it to be impossible from my (automation engineer) point of view, and even for a layman
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Aug 23, 2021 21:00
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What if instead of automated electric vehicles we just have a mandatory draft for bus & train drivers
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Aug 23, 2021 21:49
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Half the problem with cars is due to the arms race to keep drivers swaddled in enough protective tech so they might survive a high speed crash. Build out rail as far as is practical, then solve the last mile issue by banning current cars from public roads rendering lightweight electric or human powered vehicles. Think recumbent trikes or quads with full fairings and a top speed of ~25mph. Those would be much cheaper, smaller, take way fewer materials, are more easily serviced, and meet the need. Yeah, some people who live in the middle of nowhere might make an argument for having a truck, but just limit top speed (actually limit, with GPS-verification) and restrict to daytime use only. People seem to think that they have a right to drive 80 on bike lanes in their F350 Big Horn Edition but it just ain’t so. I can’t go shoot my guns in the supermarket and they shouldn’t be permitted to drive dangerous vehicles unrestricted on public roadways. Not that any of that is ever going to happen. Instead automated vehicles will eventually be approved and they will kill at least as many cyclists and pedestrians, only the dead will be even more disproportionately black/brown people due to racist algorithms. No one will care because they can still go from their cul-de-sacs to their offices without leaving air conditioning for more than a few minutes or raising their heart rates above resting. Loucks has issued a correction as of 22:06 on Aug 23, 2021 |
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Aug 23, 2021 22:04
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It isn’t so much that autonomous cars aren’t possible, it just isn’t really going to change squat especially since you will still need to have your hands on the wheel and there will never be any type of centralized control over them. In addition, that dream about them just cruising through intersections is never going to happen. At best, they are going to just allow drivers to daydream a lot more. (Also, as discussed earlier, the carbon efficiency of electric cars (largely due to production) is a lot less than one would think (it would take 60,000 miles for a Tesla 3 to match the efficiency of a Prius, and there is a good chance that Tesla wouldn't make it there)). There is no actual way to salvage car culture without almost all of its current drawbacks. Predictable enough, the only real solution is pretty much mass nuclear power plants, hydroelectric dams and renewables with a multi-modal transit system. Private cars would be on a lottery system (and there would be a pretty severe taxes on anything but the most basic economy car/truck). Other countries are already moving in that direction. And yeah, municipally organized rental cars are already a thing. I know they are pretty popular in Moscow. Ardennes has issued a correction as of 00:41 on Aug 24, 2021 |
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Aug 23, 2021 22:11
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personal trains
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Aug 23, 2021 22:11
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Colonel Cancer posted:What if instead of automated electric vehicles we just have a mandatory draft for bus & train drivers Just raise the national health care budget for bulging disc & sciatica problems
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Aug 23, 2021 22:54
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Epic High Five posted:personal trains You hire a dog to sit on the front of the car and lay out track
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Aug 23, 2021 23:08
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a self-driving car intelligent enough to navigate general road conditions will also be intelligent enough to demand wages and time off
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Aug 23, 2021 23:12
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donoteat posted:a self-driving car intelligent enough to navigate general road conditions will also be intelligent enough to demand wages and time off a mild amount of snow easily defeats every self driving tech
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Aug 23, 2021 23:16
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donoteat posted:a self-driving car intelligent enough to navigate general road conditions will also be intelligent enough to demand wages and time off Counterpoint: CA Prop 22
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Aug 23, 2021 23:57
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guidoanselmi posted:Counterpoint: CA Prop 22 Unconstitutional apparently.
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Aug 24, 2021 00:02
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I've lived carless in the Twin Cities for about 13 years and I feel that our public transit has been UNFAIRLY MALIGNED in this thread. You know, a bit. Actionjackson did say he lives in the suburbs, and the description for our suburban public transit is basically "god help you", it's true. I live in the middle of Minneapolis and my workplace is in deep hellish suburbia and the commute was (prior to my office going more-or-less full WFH) about 1.5-two hours each way and gently caress you if you miss the only bus going out and back because that commuter line is 90% geared toward people who live in the suburbs and work in the cities. That wasn't that bad, I'd certainly rather bus commute than drive, but I'm much happier not doing it at all (well, I'm back to going in once a week now because that's important apparently, and I had to fight a bit to keep it to once a week). The bus system within the cities? It's, you know, fine. Can get most anywhere in a semireasonable amount of time. The light rail is obviously superior in every way except coverage area. I don't have a large dog though. My cats will fit in carriers for such times as are necessary.
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Aug 24, 2021 01:21
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 the dog goes in the front
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Aug 24, 2021 04:50
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docbeard posted:I've lived carless in the Twin Cities for about 13 years and I feel that our public transit has been UNFAIRLY MALIGNED in this thread. I lived in mpls for a decade and I only used my car to haul my mtb out to the suburban trails.
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Aug 24, 2021 04:55
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donoteat posted:a self-driving car intelligent enough to navigate general road conditions will also be intelligent enough to demand wages and time off existing cars mostly get like 98% time off so we have some room for negotiation
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Aug 24, 2021 05:05
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the funny part of EV and autonomous cars is that even if you make those two things work perfectly they're still a loving catastrophe for a bunch of other different reasons anyway.
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Aug 24, 2021 05:41
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Notorious R.I.M. posted:the funny part of EV and autonomous cars is that even if you make those two things work perfectly they're still a loving catastrophe for a bunch of other different reasons anyway. I mean a bunch of proponents of autonomous cars are quite vocal about literally defunding public transit further since it would be "redundant."
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Aug 24, 2021 05:46
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Ardennes posted:I mean a bunch of proponents of autonomous cars are quite vocal about literally defunding public transit further since it would be "redundant." https://sf.streetsblog.org/2015/03/10/fantasizing-about-self-driving-cars-sunnyvale-opposes-el-camino-bus-lanes/ quote:he Sunnyvale City Council voted 4-3 last month to oppose dedicated bus lanes that could cut transit riders’ trips nearly in half along the length of El Camino Real, making bus trips almost as quick as driving. More than one council member said the city shouldn’t invest in transit because self-driving cars are going to make it irrelevant.
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Aug 24, 2021 05:54
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  thank you cars, very cool!
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Aug 24, 2021 07:10
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Colonel Cancer posted:There's a proven design for an electrical car that can be automated easily.
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Aug 24, 2021 07:25
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what if the cars were nuclear powered
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Aug 24, 2021 07:28
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is this the thread where we talk about Miatas I miss my Miata
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Aug 24, 2021 07:50
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'autonomous cars are inevitable'? what a cucked mindset, good lord. technological 'progress' isn't some pre-determined thing!!!
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Aug 24, 2021 08:13
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rabble rabble posted:what if the cars were nuclear powered we've been over this and the answer is a resounding "yes"
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Aug 24, 2021 11:59
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rabble rabble posted:what if the cars were nuclear powered Absolutely. Nuclear cars that drive themselves to the nearest population center so fast that they don't need wheels 
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Aug 24, 2021 12:46
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I don't know. I like having to pay like $400-$1000 a month in order to drive to my job that's 24 miles away and back!
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Aug 24, 2021 12:50
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Zurtilik posted:I don't know. I like having to pay like $400-$1000 a month in order to drive to my job that's 24 miles away and back!  what the gently caress does gas/insurance cost where you live e: oh i guess maybe car loan payment/lease also?
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Aug 24, 2021 13:15
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