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Romes128 posted:Any advice for a recent bootcamp grad looking for a job? I've had no prior experience in software development and got a couple hits on my resume when I first started looking. I did interview with two companies but got rejections (one was a final round, and neither of them were coding positions, more like engineering support). I absolutely suck at ds and algorithms and have been trying to learn more for coding challenges. Buckle down and work on your internal fortitude. It may take literally hundreds of applications before you land your first job. Work through medium problems on LeetCode and pick up Elements of Programming Interviews or Cracking the Coding Interview and do a few hours of problems a day. Hang in there!
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Aug 23, 2021 15:21
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New Yorp New Yorp posted:It can take a while to get your foot in the door. Two interviews is nothing. Keep practicing and applying. Once you get the first job, subsequent jobs are a lot easier. dantheman650 posted:Buckle down and work on your internal fortitude. It may take literally hundreds of applications before you land your first job. Work through medium problems on LeetCode and pick up Elements of Programming Interviews or Cracking the Coding Interview and do a few hours of problems a day. College Rockout posted:Everybody sucks at ds and algorithms when they first start working through them. I'd recommend focusing on getting really good at array and string manipulation before doing any deep dive into anything else. Unless you're shooting for faangs where everythings on the table, a majority of entry level technical questions will focus on those two. Thanks for the advice. I have a decade in hospitality management, I'm just so used to having interviews and being contacted like the next day with an offer. The bootcamp career services helped with my LinkedIn and resume, and a couple tech people I know looked at them and said they were solid. I'll keep applying and working on my coding/ds and algos.
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Aug 23, 2021 17:36
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An important thing for getting your first job is you should expect about a 1% return rate on resumes you send out unless you are glowing with accolades, which almost no one is. The first job you get is almost certainly going to be luck based rather than anything you did right by following our advice.
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Aug 24, 2021 00:31
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Vincent Valentine posted:The first job you get is almost certainly going to be luck based rather than anything you did right by following our advice. It's this Also, if you know someone who's really talented, talk to them, networking is a great, great way to pick up jobs, especially after you have a couple of years of experience. Major cities pre-covid had meetups with free pizza and beer, was a great place to show up with a stack of business cards and chat people up
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Aug 24, 2021 09:55
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I don't have loads of experience in this area, but I think people are over-stating how many applications and interviews you should expect as a new entrant. It could be that I was in a city with especially low standards and plentiful job vacancies, but I got a job in 4 months and probably like 20 applications, then did the same thing again a few months later. I interviewed at 5 places that year and got offered the job from 2 of them after basically a skype interview and then an in person one. I wasn't being picky with the jobs but they were proper software dev jobs paying decent money, and all I had on my cv was: bootcamp, a unity game, and a bunch of incomplete github repos. The interviews I had where I didn't get the job, it was completely obvious why even to me when I was walking out - I lacked some specific knowledge, no mystery. There was one place that kind of strung me along for months, for some reason. It was an animation studio and the only job out of any of them which I actually wanted specifically. So of course they interviewed me 3 times, emailled me about coming back in later, and then offerred nothing. I suppose my purpose with this post is so that people don't get discouraged thinking it's a bleak prospect because at least in my experience, it really, really isn't, providing you can actually perform in the application process and aren't being picky about your first job. There's so much demand and standards are all over the place.
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Aug 24, 2021 13:38
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Im curious if to publish your game or app did you need to make an LLC, assuming you are in the states? Or is it just public on git/personal site?
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Aug 24, 2021 13:55
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after a bootcamp it took me 6 months, ~100 applications, 35 hr screens, 18 technical interviews, 6 final rounds, and one offer to get my first job.
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Aug 24, 2021 13:58
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barkbell posted:after a bootcamp it took me 6 months, ~100 applications, 35 hr screens, 18 technical interviews, 6 final rounds, and one offer to get my first job. Wow, godspeed. I pray I don't have to wait six months to work. I'm unemployed right now but have enough money saved to live within my means for a while while I do this, so I'll have the advantage of doing nothing but job searching 8-10 hours a day every day until I get something. I am absolutely expecting for it to be a long slog, but I've heard from some who graduated from the same bootcamp that some people take longer than others. My tutor, who went through the exact same bootcamp with no coding experience prior last year, said he took advantage of all the career services and worked his rear end off and got a job pretty quickly. The person mentioning luck has to be spot on. We make our own luck to some degree, but I'm just going to expect for things to take a while and be ready to demonstrate my soft skills as well as possible in every interview. What might help me is that if I wind up going to work at a physical location, I'm in Connecticut, and CT has a bunch of initiatives to increase the supply of tech skilled workers. There are a lot of job listings here and not too many candidates -- I'm sure it would be much harder living in a major city.
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Aug 24, 2021 14:32
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There's going to be a lot of variation in how long it takes to get your first job. Where you are, your previous history, how the job market is now and things like that all matter, but there's a lot of luck involved too. Each application may have a low chance of turning into an offer, but the randomness means that some people will get that offer after only a few applications, and others will need more time.
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Aug 24, 2021 14:33
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Got my first job with one app / interview, second job with one app / interview. Ymmv
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Aug 24, 2021 14:44
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Hadlock posted:It's this All but 1 or 2 jobs I've had in the past 10 years have been because I knew someone who either already worked there, or knew someone who did. I still had to interview and all that, but getting to that interview stage was so much easier. I'm a tester and I'm wondering if I could make the jump into something programming related. I did computer science at uni about a decade ago (mostly the 'fancy math' stream) and scraped through with (barely) passing grades, and I imagine the main reason for my terrible grades is because it's only this year I was diagnosed with effectively a learning disability. As in, soon after I started treatment I got substantially better at the more technical side of my job because the information was always there, I just couldn't process it all together properly. But... Has working in testing (particularly manual testing) shot me in the foot? I've been doing some stuff on codecademy partially so I understand some of the stuff I'm testing better, but also because I'm wondering if I could make the jump. But I also worry my experience as a tester means I'll find it hard to get a job doing anything that isn't testing. I'm starting a new job soon where I'm hoping to expand on the automation testing front, but I'm wondering if I should learn a few other things so as not to paint myself into a career corner.
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Aug 24, 2021 16:28
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froglet posted:But... Has working in testing (particularly manual testing) shot me in the foot? I've been doing some stuff on codecademy partially so I understand some of the stuff I'm testing better, but also because I'm wondering if I could make the jump. But I also worry my experience as a tester means I'll find it hard to get a job doing anything that isn't testing. I'm starting a new job soon where I'm hoping to expand on the automation testing front, but I'm wondering if I should learn a few other things so as not to paint myself into a career corner. No. “Tester to developer” is a relatively common career path, and you’ll be able to spin it as a benefit: you probably know how to work in a software dev project environment, how to get to the edge cases that break software, and how to document bugs. You won’t have it as easy as a fresh CS grad, but if you build the skills through online classes and personal projects, your position will be much better than a random boot camp grad walking in off the street. How big is your new workplace? If it’s a larger company with a bunch of different dev/test teams, start making friends across the organization, and keep an ear out for teams that need junior devs. Bringing in a tester making the jump to junior SDE who doesn’t need all the traditional first week HR stuff, who has a good internal reputation and a few personal projects to show that they can code, is a relatively low risk move that can be real attractive for a hiring manager.
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Aug 24, 2021 17:39
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froglet posted:All but 1 or 2 jobs I've had in the past 10 years have been because I knew someone who either already worked there, or knew someone who did. I still had to interview and all that, but getting to that interview stage was so much easier. I moved from machining into a JS/React bootcamp. I met an automated QA there. He got a job and recommended that I apply. I applied and job an automated QA job with no experience in QA or programming. After a year and a half I was moved into development, so its definitely possible. It helped that I made friends with everyone I worked with, or at least left a positive impression. Enough people talked about my coding/devops abilities setting up multiple CI/CD c# selenium/appium automation frameworks that I was contacted to move into a dev role instead of the other way around. Edit: Ask to move to automation and work hard at it I guess? RC Cola fucked around with this message at 17:52 on Aug 24, 2021 |
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Aug 24, 2021 17:47
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froglet posted:I'm a tester and I'm wondering if I could make the jump into something programming related. It's extremely common to follow the QA to developer path. Three jobs ago, a guy got hired in as a senior developer in the bay area, he had been a QA person in Florida prior to that, and before I left got promoted to director (although it was an obvious case of classic startup title inflation) My last job, the VP of engineering started with the company as a QA person. He was actually a real VP though Those are some more extreme examples, but in general if you want to step into a developer role, you'll want to start rebranding yourself on LinkedIn now, and revise your resume to highlight development tasks you're doing, make it look like you already started the transition a year ago and have a year of developer experience Hadlock fucked around with this message at 18:28 on Aug 24, 2021 |
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Aug 24, 2021 18:26
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There will be some dipshits who will look down on your for having previously done testing, but they will look down on any career path other than graduating from university with a CS degree and several internships under your belt and going straight into a software development job at a tech company. Smarter people love junior developers with a background in testing. I'd much rather have someone who can think through all the edge cases of what they're writing but needs a bit of help finding good solutions for the problems than someone whose first attempts always only cover the happy path because it doesn't even occur to them to try to see what'll break.
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Aug 24, 2021 19:48
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In my experience it didn't seem like being a QA games tester helped my resume break into development jobs; 90% of what they seemed to be looking at for my first couple of jobs was completed projects on github, and a lack of those or any kind of intern or coop experience seemed to hurt a lot. Once you get your first job and have like at least 3 years experience at it it seems like getting new jobs got easier. I think with 5 years doors just open for you.
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Aug 24, 2021 23:11
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Hell even just shy of 2 years of experience makes a universe of difference. My last 4 years as a dev: Went to a (sorta) bootcamp, then sent 100 emails before finally getting my first job (followed this process which worked incredibly well for me and some other people I know, highly recommend it!). Second job (with about 1 year and 9 months experience) I sent maybe 15-20 apps and had about 3 great offers. Back in June (just shy of 4 years of experience), I didn't send a single app and just responded to recruiters. Had nearly a dozen interviews lined up within a week and 4 offers come through around the 3 to 4 week mark. I could have absolutely been more selective and wasted less time on some less-than-ideal opportunities, but either way, it's a huge far cry from where I was when I first started 
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Aug 25, 2021 19:10
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I basically suspect there's some kind of software HR companies use that gives some kind of number and that number goes up the longer you've been out working?It feels like there's just such a stark difference even a small amount of official employment provides.
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Aug 25, 2021 20:43
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It’s not really surprising. It takes quite a bit of time and effort to get an inexperienced dev to the point of not being a net negative, and many places don’t want to deal with that. I’m guessing the frequency of job switching also plays in to that, since the company is less likely to even see the benefit of that effort, better to let someone else pay that cost. Of course, that bit could be avoided if they’d just give decent pay raises to existing employees to begin with.
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Aug 25, 2021 20:54
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Raenir Salazar posted:I basically suspect there's some kind of software HR companies use that gives some kind of number and that number goes up the longer you've been out working?It feels like there's just such a stark difference even a small amount of official employment provides. Recruiting software definitely filters for people who are nearing the 2 year mark with no major title bumps, those people already have some equity, unlikely to be be awarded more, and are comfortable there but might be ready for something new with better chance of promotion Also target employees at series A/B that got their last funding 18-24 months ago, things might be looking grim on runway and employees looking for the exit doors But yeah, it's hard to justify hiring a green kid on a shoestring budget, experience is almost always preferred
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Aug 25, 2021 21:13
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Hadlock posted:Recruiting software definitely filters for people who are nearing the 2 year mark with no major title bumps, those people already have some equity, unlikely to be be awarded more, and are comfortable there but might be ready for something new with better chance of promotion Experience is great and all and that's understandable but they also shouldn't be advertizing the positions as entry level! Yet also requiring 20 years experience! And invented your own programming language! Co-founded github! For an entry level position!
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Aug 25, 2021 23:16
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Three things you shouldn't know how they're made Sausage Laws ...Job Requirements Generally the job requirement gets begrudgingly written by the hiring manager, then red lined by the director, then rewritten and sanitized by HR. Then it gets lost and the intern uploads something to the job site that looks similar to what was lost and doesn't tell anyone
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Aug 26, 2021 01:52
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At my job the HR rep who knew absolutely gently caress-all about engineering went around and asked the engineering team what should go on the job req. Individually, instead of as a group. Everyone had wildly different ideas of what the role should entail. They wrote it all down and published all of it. Some of the information directly contradicted each other. Don't think too hard about it.
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Aug 26, 2021 09:44
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95% of recruiters say something to me like, "I don't know what kubetnetes is, but they really want that for some reason". Tech recruiters might at least be familiar with the concept of Linux, but an HR person's eyes will just roll back in their head and brain activity flatlines if you even open your mouth to attempt to explain it. Hiring for a secretary, receptionist, advertising executive? Sure they can wrap their head around that
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Aug 26, 2021 09:58
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Raenir Salazar posted:Once you get your first job and have like at least 3 years experience at it it seems like getting new jobs got easier. I think with 5 years doors just open for you.
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Aug 26, 2021 15:11
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Rocko Bonaparte posted:A lot of this depends on the kind of experience you're accumulating. I have what ostensibly looks like twelve years of random Python scripting and that has closed lots of doors. No achievements to speak of? I scrubbed all mention of specific technologies from my resume. All victories, no details. Now everybody I talk to thinks I'm a miracle worker. Before, they thought I was a dumbass because many of those miracles were performed in PHP-dominated workplaces.
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Aug 26, 2021 15:25
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Rocko Bonaparte posted:A lot of this depends on the kind of experience you're accumulating. I have what ostensibly looks like twelve years of random Python scripting and that has closed lots of doors. You heard it here first, Python destroys your hireability!  But yeah I'm talking about years of gainful employment at a company with some kind of role and title. In my case 3 years at CSE seemed to do a lot to open doors for me; albeit not quite the doors I was looking for. I was looking for a job in the games industry but mostly seemed to get passed over by Behaviour, Ubisoft, etc but ended up mainly getting interest from smaller tech companies that used game engines as a part of their workflow for a non-game product.
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Aug 26, 2021 15:38
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Does anyone have a handy list of questions to ask the interviewer in an interview? There was a great list posted here a few years ago that I thought I'd saved but I can't seem to find it.
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Aug 27, 2021 09:47
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The interviewing thread in YOSPOS has a big pile of questions in the OP that have been collected over the years, if that helps.
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Aug 27, 2021 15:22
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minstrels posted:Does anyone have a handy list of questions to ask the interviewer in an interview? I've got a big rear end list here, but it hasn't been updated in awhile (suggestions welcome): https://simpixelated.com/85-questions-to-ask-about-the-company-in-an-interview
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Aug 27, 2021 16:51
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CPColin posted:The interviewing thread in YOSPOS has a big pile of questions in the OP that have been collected over the years, if that helps. Just had a look, those are actually the exact ones I was thinking of. Thanks!
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Aug 27, 2021 20:25
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I've read the general ideas about negotiating and what not, but how do the mechanics of it actually work for a large faang style company? Something like this? 1. get an offer with TC of x 2. respond saying "Would it be possible to get the TC up to 1.2x?" 3. hope it works? Like I know you're supposed to ask for more cause why not but i'm not sure how that works exactly. How much more and do you just ask like a little baby for some more dollars please and thank you?
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Aug 27, 2021 21:10
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I’ve used the following line almost verbatim to great effect: “I’m prepared to reject my other open offers/cancel pending interviews and sign immediately if you can do $x” Usually the recruiter will have to go check with someone, and then either come back with an OK or a counter-offer. I usually make x much higher that I would actually be happy with, so if they respond somewhere between their initial offer and x I sign anyway.
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Aug 27, 2021 21:14
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Read the negotiation thread.
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Aug 27, 2021 21:19
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awesomeolion posted:Like I know you're supposed to ask for more cause why not but i'm not sure how that works exactly. How much more and do you just ask like a little baby for some more dollars please and thank you? Definitely read the negotiation thread, or maybe just post there. But also to answer your question, just asking "like a little baby for some more dollars please" does actually work; it's better than not asking at all! As for the specifics, try things like: - "based on my research..." (that you should have done on levels.fyi, payscale, glassdoor, etc.) "I was actually expecting $X" - assuming you have a competing offer (this makes everything easier): "I have a competing offer for $X; I really love your company though, so if you can match/beat by 10% I'd be ready to sign" This is a good article that goes into specific examples: https://candor.co/guides/salary-negotiation dantheman650 posted:I’ve used the following line almost verbatim to great effect: “I’m prepared to reject my other open offers/cancel pending interviews and sign immediately if you can do $x” I usually try to save that for the 2nd/final time asking for more, but it definitely works either way.
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Aug 27, 2021 21:50
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thanks for the help all!
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Aug 28, 2021 09:00
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sim posted:Definitely read the negotiation thread, or maybe just post there. But also to answer your question, just asking "like a little baby for some more dollars please" does actually work; it's better than not asking at all! As for the specifics, try things like: This candor page is fantastic, exactly what I was looking for. Thanks again!
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Aug 28, 2021 22:44
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I have been reading through this thread to get some insight on realistic paths into software development, and it has been an interesting mix. Everything from 'anyone who can rub two lines of code together can get a job' to the most recent page or two with folks who have done bootcamps spending months trying to find something. Given that, I was hoping to get some thoughts on my situation! I have an engineering degree, but nothing involving computers. Materials engineering. I have been working as a materials development engineer for over a decade now. I originally considered going to school for CS but my parents talked me out of it as they thought it was a fad (this was back in '02 or so) but it has always been in the back of my mind. The inertia of life kept me busy (establishing career, getting married, kids) but recently things in life have me thinking about it again in a "why not, you only get one life" sort of way. There are secondary reasons as well, such as a career with remote work options being very attractive. So, unnecessary backstory aside, I've been taking the online CS50 course and enjoying it so far. I've talked to a few people who ended up in software engineering despite an unrelated degree who were just self taught via online classes and they recommended it, and I think I understand some of the downsides of that route with no set curriculum, no career support, and no bootcamp you can put on your resume. And with a family and little kids, I can't just quit my job and go do a bootcamp and cross my fingers I'll get a job coming out. And the time I have available tends to be a couple hours at the end of the day due to kids (or random downtime at work), and a lot of part time boot camps seem to have set hours for attendance right in the main part of the evening. I have found a few such as nucamp and St. Paul College that seem to be a bit more flexible and affordable, but not sure if those are considered less legit. I know I am very early in this process and it's probably going to take a fair bit of time, but I'm wondering if going down the self taught route (at least for now) makes sense, or is just a waste of time and I need to find a part time bootcamp that I can find a way to fit into my schedule. If I decide this is the route I want to go with my career I will likely have to take a paycut to get in, so just curious what people think is the most sensible path. Also, is having a technical degree and experience working as an engineer in a professional environment going to be much of an advantage when trying to break into the job market, or are companies not going to care as it's not coding related?
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Aug 30, 2021 16:17
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So I am a software dev hiring manager (in the twin cities!) who manages a team that is composed of mostly newer devs and some hybrid devopsy types. I hire A LOT of people who fit more or less your profile, people changing jobs a bit later in life. Life experience and a technical degree absolutely helps, and it will speed up your advancement too. I spend an inordinate amount of time with new people teaching them your basic "This is what you need to do to keep your job" type stuff. Having someone who knows that stuff usually shoots up the ladder once they get the technical pieces down (and the technical pieces are more dependably taught). I'm quoting my own post that I wrote a while back regarding expectations. Basically, the more you do on your own the more I need to see when hiring. It's doable to do by yourself but it's a harder road. Also regarding your friends, it's a lot harder now to make it being self-taught because there's a lot more people who try to cheat and look self-taught when they're not. So the bar is higher than even 5 or 6 years ago. Lockback posted:I hire people with your profile pretty frequently in what's generally considered a good entry-level engineer role (Lots of small projects and fixits, some internal tool feature development, eventually moonlighting on engineering squads). Here is what I look for based on background:
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Aug 30, 2021 16:36
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Regarding negotiation chat, they asked for some data or context to support asking for more and I provided a screenshot of levels.fyi and asked to get more toward the middle/upper part of the band. Further bulletins as events warrant. Seems like without a competing offer I'm out of luck but maybe they'll throw in a couple bucks since I asked.
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Aug 30, 2021 18:09
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