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Human Tornada posted:Well... yeah, it's still a work of narrative fiction. Usually the end of the story is when things get wrapped up. I mean realistically you don’t need to end the therapy sessions. They aren’t actually important to the plot outside a few instances, and by the end they barely even had any scenes
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Aug 20, 2021 02:13
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Where'd he get this bread? The Bread Museum?
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Aug 20, 2021 03:10
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Re: Vito's plot, on my last rewatch I liked that Vito remained a loving awful person to the end. And what I took from it as far as Tony's stuff goes, his main issue is that he doesn't really solve the Vito issue at all before Vito ends up murdered, which effectively is what his guys are mad about. If he would have sent Vito to exile working elsewhere, my guess is that most people in Tony's crew would have grumbled but accepted it, because money's money and out of sight, out of mind. So maybe the therapy ends up at times making Tony indecisive.
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Aug 21, 2021 08:35
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NDvGNLuSxZA
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Aug 21, 2021 19:21
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Kemper Boyd posted:Re: Vito's plot, on my last rewatch I liked that Vito remained a loving awful person to the end. Doesnt Tony resolve to kill Vito by the very end? It was a lot like the Richie and Jackie Jr plots, where Tony hems and haws and then ultimately resolves to do something about it, someone else takes care of it for him. He was certainly tempted by Vito’s earning potential (and slightly enlightened thinking for the 2006 Mafia), but ultimately decided it was untenable because so many in his crew were unhappy about it, and the pressure Phil put him under. The Sopranos likes to complicate your feeling about someone right before they go - so for an utter villain like Ralphie, they give you an episode humanizing him, for folks they’re allowing us to sympathize with, like Pussy, Christopher and Vito marching to their dooms, they show them murdering someone in cold blood. The only mafioso they don’t do this with really is Richie, who’s a cold blooded bastard with almost no redeeming value his entire run
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Aug 21, 2021 23:48
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Fantastic editing 
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Aug 21, 2021 23:58
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Mike N Eich posted:The only mafioso they don’t do this with really is Richie, who’s a cold blooded bastard with almost no redeeming value his entire run
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Aug 22, 2021 01:18
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Halloween Jack posted:Nothing they do with Leotardo makes me loathe him any less. They don’t do much with him, but Phil is a weird character, as they seem to waffle on what they want to do with him
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Aug 22, 2021 01:37
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Halloween Jack posted:Nothing they do with Leotardo makes me loathe him any less. he loves his grandkids.
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Aug 22, 2021 06:02
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He loved Vito like a brother-in-law.
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Aug 22, 2021 07:31
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Came here to post this. loving amazing.
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Aug 22, 2021 07:36
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CharlestheHammer posted:I mean realistically you don’t need to end the therapy sessions. They aren’t actually important to the plot outside a few instances, and by the end they barely even had any scenes It was the central theme bookending the whole show. The only other way to more explicitly signal the end of the show would be to have Tony dressed up like the Satriale pig screaming "that's all folks!"
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Aug 22, 2021 08:13
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Whale Vomit posted:It was the central theme bookending the whole show. The only other way to more explicitly signal the end of the show would be to have Tony dressed up like the Satriale pig screaming "that's all folks!" Nah I actually just finished it, the whole therapy plot line ends with a whimper. Though I’m not sure how it could have had a satisfying conclusion. It’s though you could say that for the whole ending. Which just kind of wrapped up like it just got canceled
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Aug 22, 2021 10:41
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CharlestheHammer posted:They don’t do much with him, but Phil is a weird character, as they seem to waffle on what they want to do with him I think the more interesting stuff about Phil is that he probably would have forgotten about Vito eventually but his wife kept pushing him deeper into some self-loathing hate thing about gay people.
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Aug 23, 2021 08:52
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I just kinda found Phil (god rest Frank's soul) a bit of a corny villain. Especially flanked by Butchie. Was it intentional to juxtapose the towering alpha Tony against little old jerk-in-a-tissue Shah of Iran?
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Aug 23, 2021 11:53
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Phil is theoretically sympathetic. He was a great captain, and he took the rap and did 20 years to protect the system. Now that he's out, he wants what he's entitled to according to their code. In practice, he throws his weight around all over the place in the most assholish way possible, loudly declaring that he has the right to do whatever he wants to whoever he wants, and his death is a relief for everyone involved, him included.GoutPatrol posted:he loves his grandkids.
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Aug 23, 2021 15:00
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Kemper Boyd posted:I think the more interesting stuff about Phil is that he probably would have forgotten about Vito eventually but his wife kept pushing him deeper into some self-loathing hate thing about gay people. That was interesting and I feel like they could have done more with that. But once the war starts he doesn’t even appear until his death. He just never gets the chance to do anything sadly
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Aug 23, 2021 16:08
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I feel for the person who rotoscoped this, they did a great job and I am sure it took 100 years.
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Aug 23, 2021 18:31
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It’s true there isn’t much to humanize Phil, he’s pretty much the personification of bitterness and spite. In that way he also kind of personifies that whole left-behind era of the Mafia, one that can’t conform to the 21st century and is irreparably stuck in a certain mindset. Whatever else you say about Tony, he’s at least trying to conform to a new era, in some more or less clumsy ways. There are some hints that there is something latent that Phil is struggling with (the way he grasps the bedsheets when Vito is being killed, his speech about being in prison, the male models) but it’s only fragments. Regardless, it doesn’t matter how 2 dimensional Phil is, Frank Vincent imbues him with a vitality and fury that I absolutely love.
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Aug 23, 2021 18:43
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Yeah all the old school guys come off a little irredeemable but I think it’s an interesting dynamic. The show takes place in these declining years of the mafia, where the noose is tightening and everyone’s just watching out for themselves; then you get these old school types (Phil, Richie, feech) who presumably went away when being connected gave you more status and think they’re entitled to a big homecoming, only to find out that the world they thrived in isn’t there anymore, so they just kind of thrash around like a shark out of water until someone puts them down.
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Aug 23, 2021 18:54
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Ainsley McTree posted:Yeah all the old school guys come off a little irredeemable but I think it’s an interesting dynamic. The show takes place in these declining years of the mafia, where the noose is tightening and everyone’s just watching out for themselves; then you get these old school types (Phil, Richie, feech) who presumably went away when being connected gave you more status and think they’re entitled to a big homecoming, only to find out that the world they thrived in isn’t there anymore, so they just kind of thrash around like a shark out of water until someone puts them down. I love how they managed to make Feech this vile character who ruined a family's life by going to war with Paulie over who cut what lawn and also a sad old man when Tony (rightly) decided it would be best to get rid of him to avoid another Richie.
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Aug 23, 2021 19:15
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Mike N Eich posted:Doesnt Tony resolve to kill Vito by the very end? It was a lot like the Richie and Jackie Jr plots, where Tony hems and haws and then ultimately resolves to do something about it, someone else takes care of it for him. He was certainly tempted by Vito’s earning potential (and slightly enlightened thinking for the 2006 Mafia), but ultimately decided it was untenable because so many in his crew were unhappy about it, and the pressure Phil put him under. I feel like Tony gets a lot of credit for his enlightened view about Vito's homosexuality but I wonder what the response would have been if the shoe had been on Phil or Johnny Sack or Carmine's foot? It's easy for them to want to kill Vito. He doesn't earn them any money. But what if he was one of theirs, and was a powerful earner? I imagine even Phil for all his talk would have wondered if he could get away without killing Vito. Sil too, for that matter. It's really easy to want Vito dead when he's not the one making you truck loads of money. Tony's forgiveness of Vito is ultimately motivated by money more than anything. If Vito was a poo poo earner I don't think he would have given a second thought to killing him.
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Aug 23, 2021 19:54
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The Phill, Feech and Richie arcs (and to some extent season 1 Junior) were reiterations of the same some conflict between generations during this period of decline in the Mafia. Guys who went away in the 80s Mafia busts had no respect for the guys who got made and rose the ranks afterwards. It was a reality check when the old timers came back with their palms open and nothing but complaints -- nobody living up to their reputations, their own idealized memories or Gary Cooper. Phil was a pain but 110% correct. What good was it to not become a rat? There was nothing set aside for them or a place for them to earn; only a long-gone honor code that probably never really existed in this thing. It was always (and forever) every man for himself. It says it all that old man Dimeo is the family boss and the namesake for the entire series run but may as well not even exist.
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Aug 24, 2021 07:15
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IRL, the head of the of the family (the DeCavalcantes) which the whole DiMeo family is loosely based on, got murdered over possibly being gay: https://www.theguardian.com/world/2003/may/02/usa.garyyounge
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Aug 24, 2021 07:20
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I think the problem with Fitch, Richie and Phil is they feel like the same thing. Which is kind of tedious for a narrative show. They did try with Phil to shake it up a bit. I think it failed but they did try
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Aug 24, 2021 15:20
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Kemper Boyd posted:IRL, the head of the of the family (the DeCavalcantes) which the whole DiMeo family is loosely based on, got murdered over possibly being gay: https://www.theguardian.com/world/2003/may/02/usa.garyyounge The DeCavalcantes are an interesting crime family and kind of a microcosm for the mob's rise and fall on their own and do feel like they mirror the Sopranos. They were originally run by Simone DeCavalcante whose nickname was "Sam the Plumber" because he owned a plumbing/AC business as his job to pay taxes on and he actually managed to retire to Florida but was still giving orders through his son. Then you have "John the Eagle" Riggi who spent most of his time as boss behind bars and died in a, quote, small house in Edison with his nurse/doctor which feels very Junior. They have a formal boss now with some long-time member running things but at the same time the family's been so gutted by the FBI and everything New York's taken over a lot of their rackets which also feels like what would happen to the DiMeo's, Tony dead or not.
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Aug 24, 2021 16:29
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CharlestheHammer posted:I think the problem with Fitch, Richie and Phil is they feel like the same thing. Which is kind of tedious for a narrative show. They did try with Phil to shake it up a bit. I think it failed but they did try Eh I'd say they're more like variations on a theme. Richie's arc was to establish the whole "man out of time" thing as it relates to the mob. Feech's arc was rooted just as much in him not being a lackey for Tony - notice that it's Feech not laughing at Tony's lame joke that ultimately prompts Tony to send him back to jail. And Phil's arc, at least in Season 6, felt like he was meant to be a dark(er) mirror of Tony - he tries briefly to become a better person as a result of a near-death experience, but eventually backslides and becomes completely irredeemable. They're all similar for sure but have enough nuances to avoid making them feel repetitive, IMO anyway.
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Aug 24, 2021 16:58
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Feech was also there to show whether tony learned anything from dealing with Richie or not; I think tony literally even says this at some point
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Aug 24, 2021 18:41
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Did he need to? Ritchie wasn’t ever a threat.
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Aug 24, 2021 18:58
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CharlestheHammer posted:I think the problem with Fitch, Richie and Phil is they feel like the same thing. Which is kind of tedious for a narrative show. They did try with Phil to shake it up a bit. I think it failed but they did try I can see that but kind of disagree overall. I don't tend to lump them together as characters but you're right that they sort of filled the same role. Now you got me thinking about it though and I'm hard pressed to come up with ways that they're different so I think you might be right. Maybe in my mind I didn't lump them together since I watched the show before the advent of binge watching and in "real time" so my exposure to each character was spread out over years of consuming the episodes. You kinda need characters like that in this show to keep it tense. You can throw Ralph on that same pile for different reasons. I'd say that Richie begat Feech and showed what Tony had learned, like McTree wrote. And Richie was absolutely a threat. He was horning in on Janice, challenging Tony's authority, throwing his weight around constantly and also cutting into the money that Davey owed to Tony. He was back dooring a power grab with Junior too. Psycho is right that all 3 are variations on a theme I think. Phil was just a dick and also on the other "team" who didn't really break bad until Johnny's health created a power vacuum and after Tony's cousin started some poo poo. Whatever happened there.
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Aug 24, 2021 19:21
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Ainsley McTree posted:Feech was also there to show whether tony learned anything from dealing with Richie or not; I think tony literally even says this at some point "Nip it in the bud" That entire set up with Chris and the whole scene where the probation officer makes a visit to Feech is one my favorite ones on the show. The way Chris and Benny sell it by pretending to be hard line and negotiating is great. It's such a slow burn when the PO rings and it's a situation we've all been in where we know we hosed up but still hope we can bullshit our way out of it. Then that closing shot of him riding back to jail on the bus where we can see him piecing together what happened. Sorry for the double post. BiggerBoat fucked around with this message at 19:28 on Aug 24, 2021 |
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Aug 24, 2021 19:22
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CharlestheHammer posted:Did he need to? Ritchie wasn’t ever a threat. I’m not sure that’s completely true; Richie hated his guts more every day (the jaaaaaackeett) and there were definitely elements pushing him to be a problem, though he didn’t seem to have his mind made up one way or the other yet; but either way, if I’m remembering the season right, tony certainly seemed convinced he was going to have to do something sooner or later, i thought
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Aug 24, 2021 20:10
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Richie was absolutely a threat. He was trying to get Junior’s blessing to whack Tony and he went to Albert Barese to get that crew’s support. Tony already made plans with Silvio to figure out a way to make Richie disappear, it just so happened that Janice did it first after he punched her in the mouth.
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Aug 24, 2021 20:23
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Phil is a funhouse mirror version of Tony, moreso than any of the other villain in the show except Livia. He and Tony both have the same arc in that they both lose themselves in their feelings of wounded pride and/or personal resentment in different ways throughout Season 6 which has disastrous consequences for the people around them. CPFortest fucked around with this message at 21:25 on Aug 24, 2021 |
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Aug 24, 2021 21:22
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Ainsley McTree posted:I’m not sure that’s completely true; Richie hated his guts more every day (the jaaaaaackeett) and there were definitely elements pushing him to be a problem, though he didn’t seem to have his mind made up one way or the other yet; but either way, if I’m remembering the season right, tony certainly seemed convinced he was going to have to do something sooner or later, i thought He failed him every way tho. Really his whole arc showed just how weak and ineffectual the old school were now He can hate Tony as much as he wanted but honestly that one twin whose name I can’t remember was more a threat
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Aug 24, 2021 21:42
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CPFortest posted:Phil is a funhouse mirror version of Tony, moreso than any of the other villain in the show except Livia. Can you elaborate on this? Pissed Ape Sexist posted:Seconded-- but obviously not confrontationally. It's an interesting thematic thread to pull on. EDIT: Same. It was just something I hadn't thought about BiggerBoat fucked around with this message at 22:12 on Aug 24, 2021 |
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Aug 24, 2021 21:47
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BiggerBoat posted:Can you elaborate on this? Seconded-- but obviously not confrontationally. It's an interesting thematic thread to pull on.
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Aug 24, 2021 22:08
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BiggerBoat posted:Can you elaborate on this? It's more prevalent in the back half than the front half but off the top of my head, the whole Tony/Bobby conflict in Sopranos Home Movies is set off by Tony's fury at Janice being fairly non chalant about when Johnny shot a bullet through Livia's beehive hair compared to him. The final trigger for Phil deciding to antagonize the Jersey crew over the rest of the season is how he makes himself mad by retelling the story of how his family name became Leotardo, an event he takes seriously only occurring because of a tiny documenting error on Ellis Island. Both instances are about how each venerate their warped views on their family history. The catalyst for Phil retaking control of the family isn't how Doc acts as a leader to others but him taking a bit of his food at dinner, just like how Tony kills Chris after he sees the baby's car seat destroyed after the wreck. They both make these decisions to kill based on how the other has personally offended them, not just whatever mistakes they made. There's also Tony destroying his friendship with Hesh because he feels he isn't being properly deferential in addressing Tony's gambling debts. Tony spends all of Remember When contemplating killing Paulie just because of how his behavior irritates him. Tony also looses all his love for Christopher through seeing how Chris portrays him in Cleaver and after Chris talks about Dickie Moltisanti being a drug addict, both events shattering his perspective on both of them. Tony spends all of Kennedy and Heidi frustrated because no one else but him has the same semi-relieved reaction to Chris' death, and this is contrasted by how seriously Phil still feels about his brother's death compared to everyone else, especially after Little Carmine's "Whatever happened there" quip. The other obvious example is how they both deal with Vito Jr. They both want him to shut up and get over how he's processing his dad's death and they each give him "life lessons" that are for their own benefit in assuaging how they treated Vito rather than helping him process his grief and actually addressing his cries for help. In the end they're both done in by their inability to cope with their pride and resentments. Phil is killed due to escalating the conflict too far and Tony is cut off from Melfi, left with kids that through their own choices along with his that didn't really escape his orbit, a crew that all has some level of antipathy to him due to his behavior, and is unable to save himself from acting just like Livia. CPFortest fucked around with this message at 22:59 on Aug 24, 2021 |
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Aug 24, 2021 22:31
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Thanks for the reply and the effort post. That's a lot to unpack.
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Aug 24, 2021 23:43
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Better than a half hour of Mr. Chase on the new movie https://www.rollingstone.com/movies/movie-features/david-chase-many-saints-newark-interview-1211288/
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Aug 25, 2021 00:28
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