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TheDiceMustRoll posted:i know South Park brought gingers to the hatestream but they def didnt make "jew" a slur There is a fair bit of speculation that Cartman's casual anti-Semitism normalized using "jew" as a general insult. And, honestly, having hung around some of the places online that would eventually become breeding grounds for the alt-right, South Park's particular brand of edgy cynicism kind of laid the groundwork for a lot of people's radicalization. This is not to say I think the show was deliberately trying to foster a reactionary mindset in its viewer base, just that it's combination of "I think the truth lies somewhere in the middle" centrism combined with its edgy "gently caress you mom" approach to racism would end up being leveraged by reactionaries to recruit for what would become the alt right.
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Aug 23, 2021 21:50
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KingKalamari posted:There is a fair bit of speculation that Cartman's casual anti-Semitism normalized using "jew" as a general insult. And, honestly, having hung around some of the places online that would eventually become breeding grounds for the alt-right, South Park's particular brand of edgy cynicism kind of laid the groundwork for a lot of people's radicalization. This is not to say I think the show was deliberately trying to foster a reactionary mindset in its viewer base, just that it's combination of "I think the truth lies somewhere in the middle" centrism combined with its edgy "gently caress you mom" approach to racism would end up being leveraged by reactionaries to recruit for what would become the alt right. From my (admittedly fallible) memories of being in college when South Park debuted, because I'm old - using "jew" as a general insult was absolutely A Thing before the show existed (using it as a verb, too; back in the '80s I distinctly recall a bunch of kids, myself sadly included, using the term "jewed" as a synonym for "ripped off"); I would definitely argue that, as you say, it was normalized by the show, because when confronted with "hey maybe it's not cool to drop casual racism, kid" suddenly people had "oh it's just a South Park thing, relax and don't take things so seriously" as a ready-made retort that they could use to cover up the entirely genuine racism that they were giving utterance to. It's a perfect example of how giving cover to racists is every bit as harmful as actually spreading racism, IMO
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Aug 23, 2021 22:49
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Oh yeah, any discussion of antisemitism in the past several decades has got to mention South Park. It didn't invent it, but it normalized it for a ton of young people.
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Aug 23, 2021 22:55
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Anyway, you can't say Blizzard did a racism because they obviously watched The Cosby Show, gosh.
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Aug 23, 2021 23:17
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KingKalamari posted:There is a fair bit of speculation that Cartman's casual anti-Semitism normalized using "jew" as a general insult. And, honestly, having hung around some of the places online that would eventually become breeding grounds for the alt-right, South Park's particular brand of edgy cynicism kind of laid the groundwork for a lot of people's radicalization. This is not to say I think the show was deliberately trying to foster a reactionary mindset in its viewer base, just that it's combination of "I think the truth lies somewhere in the middle" centrism combined with its edgy "gently caress you mom" approach to racism would end up being leveraged by reactionaries to recruit for what would become the alt right. Most American media until like, the late 2010's was pretty dialed into the South Park style of spewing bigoted ideas to millions and then making it clear that "real racists" are bad. Like Star Trek played the centrism game all the time but everyone pretends it was hyper-woke because they don't remember (or want to remember) Kirk both-siding racists and the people that don't want to suffer from racism anymore, or Starfleet's policy of not allowing women to acquire the rank of Captain (and then showing a feminist stand-in go insane with power in less than an hour after doing do), or Klingons in blackface and yellowface, or or or or or or or
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Aug 23, 2021 23:34
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TheDiceMustRoll posted:Most American media until like, the late 2010's was pretty dialed into the South Park style of spewing bigoted ideas to millions and then making it clear that "real racists" are bad. Like Star Trek played the centrism game all the time but everyone pretends it was hyper-woke because they don't remember (or want to remember) Kirk both-siding racists and the people that don't want to suffer from racism anymore, or Starfleet's policy of not allowing women to acquire the rank of Captain (and then showing a feminist stand-in go insane with power in less than an hour after doing do), or Klingons in blackface and yellowface, or or or or or or or Original Trek has a lot of good in there, mostly round the character of Nyota Uhura. First inter-racial kiss on US TV, and MLK literally begged Nichelle Nichols to stay with the show because it was the only place on TV where they had a black person treated as the equal of white people, and sometimes giving them orders. By the standards of the 60s it was groundbreaking. TNG onwards not so much. Rodenberry's Federation was cloying and Rick Berman was ... not progressive.
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Aug 24, 2021 01:06
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TheDiceMustRoll posted:Most American media until like, the late 2010's was pretty dialed into the South Park style of spewing bigoted ideas to millions and then making it clear that "real racists" are bad. Like Star Trek played the centrism game all the time but everyone pretends it was hyper-woke because they don't remember (or want to remember) Kirk both-siding racists and the people that don't want to suffer from racism anymore, or Starfleet's policy of not allowing women to acquire the rank of Captain (and then showing a feminist stand-in go insane with power in less than an hour after doing do), or Klingons in blackface and yellowface, or or or or or or or
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Aug 24, 2021 01:12
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It's also significant that the character Cartman is screaming "Jew" at is Jewish. They linked Cartman's anger to Kyle's ethnicity and played that connection for laughs. If there are earlier examples of ironic "just a joke relax" racism, I can't think of any. Of course there were prior "humorous" depictions of racism - but these were either A) earnestly racist (lovely 50s stuff) or B) bigoted characters were meant to be the butt of the joke (blazing saddles).
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Aug 24, 2021 01:26
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neonchameleon posted:Original Trek has a lot of good in there, mostly round the character of Nyota Uhura. First inter-racial kiss on US TV, and MLK literally begged Nichelle Nichols to stay with the show because it was the only place on TV where they had a black person treated as the equal of white people, and sometimes giving them orders. By the standards of the 60s it was groundbreaking. Uhura was definitely a big step forwards. She's not just a sub-department head (reporting to Scotty), but her group probably handles the ship's firewalls, codebreaking, network security, and so on. On top of all that, she's a qualified watchstander on one of Starfleet's 12 biggest ships. There are a few episodes where Kirk grabs a bunch of people for an away mission and leaves Uhura with the conn. She moves from her usual station down to Navigation and is now doing the Officer of the Deck's job. For a mere lieutenant to have those kinds of responsibilities is a big deal for the character given the situation in America at the time.
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Aug 24, 2021 02:08
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Starfleet is shockingly conservative regarding anything LGBTQ related.
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Aug 24, 2021 03:46
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Halloween Jack posted:Starfleet is shockingly conservative regarding anything LGBTQ related. Until fairly recently anyway. Now there's Stamets, Culber, Reno, and those adorable season 3 kids.
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Aug 24, 2021 04:56
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moths posted:It's also significant that the character Cartman is screaming "Jew" at is Jewish. They linked Cartman's anger to Kyle's ethnicity and played that connection for laughs. Archie Bunker from All in the Family had a similar issue. Meant to be an old grouchy racist always in the wrong, and viewers said "hey, this guy's like me and people laugh when he says racist stuff, I love him!" mllaneza posted:Uhura was definitely a big step forwards. She's not just a sub-department head (reporting to Scotty), but her group probably handles the ship's firewalls, codebreaking, network security, and so on. On top of all that, she's a qualified watchstander on one of Starfleet's 12 biggest ships. There are a few episodes where Kirk grabs a bunch of people for an away mission and leaves Uhura with the conn. She moves from her usual station down to Navigation and is now doing the Officer of the Deck's job. For a mere lieutenant to have those kinds of responsibilities is a big deal for the character given the situation in America at the time. I don't know how people of the time felt about him, but Barney Collier from the Mission Impossible TV show (great show, still holds up if you can adjust to the more suspenseful/deliberate pacing compared to modern TV) was a similar positive role model. Brilliant engineer responsible for most of the gadgets everyone else used, I think the only time I recall him playing into a stereotype was bluffing his way past bad guys.
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Aug 24, 2021 04:56
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Thomamelas posted:I always felt like Shadowrun did an okay job with metaplot. Like yes, some massive events are out of reach of the PCs but there are so many plot hooks lying around that you could have an impact despite the major NPCs. Just keep the Immortal Elves out of it. The Harlequin adventures had some serious moments of 'watch the big NPC be the protagonist' in.
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Aug 24, 2021 05:31
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theironjef posted:Until fairly recently anyway. Now there's Stamets, Culber, Reno, and those adorable season 3 kids. There's also the lesbian in DS9 (one of the first five on TV), the transgender exploration of the Trill in DS9, and the asexual TNG episode. It's not perfect and not a lot of the shows -- but when viewed through the lens of the early to mid 90s, it was somewhat ahead of the curve. The more that Rick Berman sunk his teeth into the franchise, the more terrible and regressive the shows became.
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Aug 24, 2021 17:48
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Eastmabl posted:There's also the lesbian in DS9 (one of the first five on TV), the transgender exploration of the Trill in DS9, and the asexual TNG episode. Idunno if it was Berman, but I believe Frakes wanted Soren to be played by a man and the production wouldn't have it.
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Aug 24, 2021 18:03
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Yeah, original Series Star Trek was legitimately progressive for its time (not just with Uhura, but stuff like having a Russian crewmember was legitimately edgy in the 60's.) By the 90's, though, they were seriously behind the curve. The year before TNG first started dipping its toe in the water of allegorically exploring LGBT themes with The Outcast, Golden Girls had a full fledged gay wedding. By the time DS9 had a woman on sort-of-woman Trill kiss, Roseanne had multiple gay series regular characters. Star Trek didn't get a canonical on-screen gay character until... what, Star Trek Beyond? For a show set in the future, the star trek of the 80's and 90's was pretty far behind the times. Old Kentucky Shark fucked around with this message at 18:54 on Aug 24, 2021 |
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Aug 24, 2021 18:45
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TNG devotes multiple episodes to "exploring" unbelievably stupid questions like "Is an android a person" and "Can we grant asylum to people fleeing persecution." You'd think a space fleet devoted to seeking out new forms of life and new civilizations and establishing diplomatic relations with them would have come up with a policy for this stuff at least a hundred years ago. Edit: Also the episode where Picard becomes insanely angry that Data didn't throw a little girl into a volcano along with her entire civilization. Just absolutely bugfuck crazy. The Federation has some sort of weird eco-imperialist philosophy about the natural order of things. Halloween Jack fucked around with this message at 19:09 on Aug 24, 2021 |
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Aug 24, 2021 19:03
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Old Kentucky Shark posted:Star Trek didn't get a canonical on-screen gay character until... what, Star Trek Beyond? And! It pissed off the original actor a bit, since it implied that Sulu was closeted(he was shown interested in women).
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Aug 24, 2021 19:07
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TheDiceMustRoll posted:And! It pissed off the original actor a bit, since it implied that Sulu was closeted(he was shown interested in women).  As an aside, Uhura got a great line there. Sulu says, "I'll protect you, fair maiden!" She replies, "sorry, neither."
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Aug 24, 2021 19:22
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I always somehow forget that George Takei is/was just some straight up man-candy. God drat, dude, you fleche right into my heart.
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Aug 24, 2021 19:41
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TheDiceMustRoll posted:And! It pissed off the original actor a bit, since it implied that Sulu was closeted(he was shown interested in women). Not to mention it just felt way too on the nose to make Sulu the first LGBTQ main cast member given George Takei being an out gay man with a long history of public advocacy for LGBTQ rights. It just felt really lazy on the writer's part that, when the time came to actually include some queer representation they immediately jumped to "uh...the character who's original actor is a well known gay man I guess?". Like, show a little imagination here guys - make Chekov or Bones gay! Any option but the one that just screams "We made this decision at 4:50 PM on a Friday"!
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Aug 24, 2021 19:53
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Was TOS really progressive for its time in terms of sexism? I know Uhura was on the bridge and that was nice, and I know Roddenberry wanted Number One but wasn't allowed. But the show as it stands is just so sexist. Turnabout intruder is only the worst example of it. That said, I haven't seen a lot of TV from that time, so I'm not sure how bad it was compared with that.
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Aug 24, 2021 20:11
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Context is also important. Like, Kirk/Uhura was the first interracial kiss on television...in the United States...between a Caucasian man and an African-American woman...on the lips.
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Aug 24, 2021 20:19
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For TV at the time it was progressive, but compared to like books or movies not so much. TV was really really bad in the US for a very long time.
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Aug 24, 2021 20:19
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I'd offer that it was a bigger deal then than it might seem in retrospect today. Televised content was limited to a handful of channels, which meant that Trek was present in a bigger percentage of screens. Star Trek's actual messaging was dubious on a lot of issues, but the consistent depiction of both Nichols and Takai as serious professionals who were respected by their (white) peers was groundbreaking in its own right.
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Aug 24, 2021 20:51
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HopperUK posted:Was TOS really progressive for its time in terms of sexism? I know Uhura was on the bridge and that was nice, and I know Roddenberry wanted Number One but wasn't allowed. But the show as it stands is just so sexist. Turnabout intruder is only the worst example of it. That said, I haven't seen a lot of TV from that time, so I'm not sure how bad it was compared with that. For sexism possibly not although fanon Kirk is very different from canon Kirk. But for racism let's provide some context. From MLK according to Nichelle Nichols (via NPR) Nichelle Nichols (Lt. Uhura) posted:Ms. NICHOLS: I went in to tell Gene Roddenberry that I was leaving after the first season, and he was very upset about it. And he said, take the weekend and think about what I am trying to achieve here in this show. You're an integral part and very important to it. And so I said, yes, I would. And that - on Saturday night, I went to an NAACP fundraiser, I believe it was, in Beverly Hills. And one of the promoters came over to me and said, Ms. Nichols, there's someone who would like to meet you. He says he is your greatest fan. And from Whoopi Goldberg Whoopi Goldberg (Guinan) posted:"Well, when I was nine years old Star Trek came on," Goldberg says. "I looked at it and I went screaming through the house, 'Come here, mum, everybody, come quick, come quick, there's a black lady on television and she ain't no maid!' I knew right then and there I could be anything I wanted to be."
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Aug 24, 2021 21:10
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I know those (lovely) stories which is why I specifically mentioned sexism. Thanks for posting them though 
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Aug 25, 2021 03:51
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My view on old Trek is that the casting of the protagonists was pretty progressive for the time, but most of the writing, while telling good stories, had godawful messages. The nazi episode claims that fascism is the most efficient form of government. Spock says this. They also seem to imply that if you simply get rid of the leader, the entire apparatus starts crumbling down and really who is to say who is "at fault" aside from the guy in the hitler chair? It's pretty bad, native americans played by italians in redface praising kirk for saving them from famine by teaching them how to grow crops, etc. My only real issue is when they start to erroneously claim they were groundbreaking in every way, and that the show is some kind of hyper-left messaging machine, which it was not. They'll usually include like, a screenshot of the half black/half white faces episode (which says both sides are wrong and "disgusting") and say they offered a commentary on social issues at the time. It's like a PragerU video where they cite a source that directly contradicts what they say, but they're not expecting most people to actually look into it. Xiahou Dun posted:I always somehow forget that George Takei is/was just some straight up man-candy. God drat, dude, you fleche right into my heart. Shatner too. Hell, they're all really attractive, and its weird as gently caress seeing shows where people don't have perfectly bleached/capped teeth and fucktons of makeup. Halloween Jack posted:TNG devotes multiple episodes to "exploring" unbelievably stupid questions like "Is an android a person" and "Can we grant asylum to people fleeing persecution." You'd think a space fleet devoted to seeking out new forms of life and new civilizations and establishing diplomatic relations with them would have come up with a policy for this stuff at least a hundred years ago. Robert Beltran had it right: https://www.cnet.com/news/star-trek-anniversary-50-chakotay-robert-beltran-the-prime-directive-is-fascist-crap/
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Aug 25, 2021 06:06
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What about other scifi properties of the late 20th century? Babylon 5 always felt kinda progressive to me, but then again, that was 28 years ago.
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Aug 25, 2021 06:46
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dwarf74 posted:https://twitter.com/Cephalofair/status/1428393530532171779?s=19 Cephalofair Games should really loo into background of one of their guest designers, Timo Multamäki. He was convicted on charges sexual abuse of minors in 2015. Boardgame Geek had one thread about it back in the day but it was removed. Lapinkansa, a respectable magazine that had news article, link can now be only found in internet archive. It never occurred to me to archive the whole article back in the day. https://web.archive.org/web/20150706080333/https://www.lapinkansa.fi/lappi/miehelle-yli-2-vuotta-ehdotonta-vankeutta-lasten-hyvaksikaytosta/ Maria Pettersson wrote about devastion that it brought to local gaming scene, as Multamäki was active participant and organizer in LARP scene and game designer: https://www.hs.fi/sunnuntai/art-2000002839054.html Ask anyone else active in finnish roleplaying and LARP scene and they can confirm this.
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Aug 25, 2021 06:57
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Mr.Misfit posted:What about other scifi properties of the late 20th century? Babylon 5 always felt kinda progressive to me, but then again, that was 28 years ago. Babylon 5 is great, but it's not progressive except in that it manages to do fascism above a fifth grade reading level. There's an episode which is basically the counter-trek where a family wants to refuse a medical procedure which would save their kids life(basically think an appendectomy) for religious reasons and they do the whole star trek thing where they discuss a few angles of it, and then the Starfleet analog doctor guy just says "nah, gently caress you" and does it anyway. The parents seem to be placated, but then they kill him because they believe anyone who has had surgery done on them causes that person to become a demon with no soul. The moral of the episode isn't about how religious people are loving stupid, it's about cultural imperialism and the captain calls them out on their blind arrogance. TNG was an extremely arrogant show, so it had to have been a dab on them. Overall it's just...smarter than Star Trek was in 90s. Lots of good characters, the entire "fascist takeover of the government" is believable, and happens for reasons that make sense, while also putting forth good arguments as for why fear is not the answer, much more than Star Trek's take on it (one day, out of nowhere, nazis just..appeared everywhere! there was nothing we could do! if you kill the leader the problem is solved though). There's a lot of ways the show examines hate, why it festers, how it lashes out, why it can't ever win, how it can poison a mindset, etc. I don't find it openly bigoted, and unlike Star Trek I don't recall a "ha ha, look! A MAN WEARING A DRESS! WHAT A FREAK!" episode. It did have weird poo poo like King Arthur showing up with a sword and everything. It really makes you have to ask what you mean by progressive show, though. Farscape has great characters of both genders but it also goes on and on about genetics in the least helpful way possible, for example. Buffy the Vampire Slayer has some things going for it(tons of pretty good woman as protagonists, etc) but also some dumb things(Buffy has this whole thing about throwing criminals into the american prison system and calling it 'getting help' which is...naive?)
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Aug 25, 2021 07:20
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Mr.Misfit posted:What about other scifi properties of the late 20th century? Babylon 5 always felt kinda progressive to me, but then again, that was 28 years ago. Babylon 5 simultaneously is about a bunch of mutineers / revolutionaries being in the right but also has kind of a cop-worship thing going on. It casts the labor union as sympathetic when they strike against pay conditions on the station, but ultimately the narrative sides with management, even while the ultimate problem is cast as corrupt politicians underfunding the Babylon project. It's pretty clear about the Centauri empire being a blood-stained, genocidal regime, but it also frequently makes an equivalence between them and their victims. Even the central conflict between the Shadows and the Vorlons is a bit "maybe the truth is in the middle" sometimes, even though the Shadows are almost literally demons from hell. It's an interesting story and I don't think it can necessarily be reduced to a single pat summary, but it's got a distinct centrist streak -- not an unexamined or un-self-conscious one, but not a perspective I agree with at all no matter how much I enjoy the show. TheDiceMustRoll posted:Babylon 5 is great, but it's not progressive except in that it manages to do fascism above a fifth grade reading level. There's an episode which is basically the counter-trek where a family wants to refuse a medical procedure which would save their kids life(basically think an appendectomy) for religious reasons and they do the whole star trek thing where they discuss a few angles of it, and then the Starfleet analog doctor guy just says "nah, gently caress you" and does it anyway. The parents seem to be placated, but then they kill him because they believe anyone who has had surgery done on them causes that person to become a demon with no soul. The moral of the episode isn't about how religious people are loving stupid, it's about cultural imperialism and the captain calls them out on their blind arrogance. TNG was an extremely arrogant show, so it had to have been a dab on them. i agree with this completely Tuxedo Catfish fucked around with this message at 07:47 on Aug 25, 2021 |
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Aug 25, 2021 07:43
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Tuxedo Catfish posted:Even the central conflict between the Shadows and the Vorlons is a bit "maybe the truth is in the middle" sometimes, even though the Shadows are almost literally demons from hell. That's probably a good example of doing truth is somewhere in the middle since both sides basically went mask-off and started just deleting entire civilizations for *checks notes* having an opposing side's storage locker on them. Getting an entire galaxy to LARP the War of the Ring over and over to "prove" your beliefs are correct is so dumb. What I can think everyone agrees with is that all of the biggest shitheads in Babylon 5(Reefa, Morden) get absolutely loving awesome comeuppances(except for Cartagia since he basically died instantly) I guess the best summary that I can think of is the guy who made Babylon 5 was extremely well versed in history, mythology and classic shakespeare, and understood that television is best done up as a stage play with fancier effects, because by the end of Babylon 5 you like the characters so much you ignore the obvious christmas lights and cheap dimestore halloween masks that some of the people wear. Star Trek discovery looks amazing in terms of special effects but it's just complete garbage because none of the characters seem to have personality traits beyond crying. The entire federation got blown up because someone cried too loudly in a space cloud and I am not making that up.
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Aug 25, 2021 08:10
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TheDiceMustRoll posted:TNG was an extremely arrogant show, so it had to have been a dab on them. They hired David Gerrold (who ran the writer's room for TNG S1 and S2, plus wrote the series Bible) to write that episode especially to make it stand out from Star Trek. Babylon 5 is flawed, but is truly great nonetheless. It's on HBO Max. Go for it.
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Aug 25, 2021 08:17
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Halloween Jack posted:TNG devotes multiple episodes to "exploring" unbelievably stupid questions like "Is an android a person" I liked the part where Picard says "oh, you mean slaves, this hadn't occurred to me" and Guinan gives him a Look.
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Aug 25, 2021 08:27
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Bruceski posted:I liked the part where Picard says "oh, you mean slaves, this hadn't occurred to me" and Guinan gives him a Look. and then they made them slaves anyway.
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Aug 25, 2021 08:45
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TheDiceMustRoll posted:Babylon 5 is great, but it's not progressive except in that it manages to do fascism above a fifth grade reading level. There's an episode which is basically the counter-trek where a family wants to refuse a medical procedure which would save their kids life(basically think an appendectomy) for religious reasons and they do the whole star trek thing where they discuss a few angles of it, and then the Starfleet analog doctor guy just says "nah, gently caress you" and does it anyway. The parents seem to be placated, but then they kill him because they believe anyone who has had surgery done on them causes that person to become a demon with no soul. The moral of the episode isn't about how religious people are loving stupid, it's about cultural imperialism and the captain calls them out on their blind arrogance. TNG was an extremely arrogant show, so it had to have been a dab on them. Forgive me if I'm dense, but do they kill the doctor, or their own child in this context? I can read it as "we must kill the demon child" but also "we'll kill you for turning our kid into a soulless abomination!"
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Aug 25, 2021 08:48
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Libertad! posted:Forgive me if I'm dense, but do they kill the doctor, or their own child in this context? I can read it as "we must kill the demon child" but also "we'll kill you for turning our kid into a soulless abomination!" They kill their own child.
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Aug 25, 2021 08:59
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TheDiceMustRoll posted:Babylon 5 is great, but it's not progressive except in that it manages to do fascism above a fifth grade reading level. There's an episode which is basically the counter-trek where a family wants to refuse a medical procedure which would save their kids life(basically think an appendectomy) for religious reasons and they do the whole star trek thing where they discuss a few angles of it, and then the Starfleet analog doctor guy just says "nah, gently caress you" and does it anyway. The parents seem to be placated, but then they kill him because they believe anyone who has had surgery done on them causes that person to become a demon with no soul. The moral of the episode isn't about how religious people are loving stupid, it's about cultural imperialism and the captain calls them out on their blind arrogance. TNG was an extremely arrogant show, so it had to have been a dab on them. One place Babylon 5 was surprisingly progressive was on sexuality. It had a lesbian relationship (until one of the actresses asked to leave the show), and when two guys who didn't get along went undercover as a gay married couple the joke was in how they bickered so much that it was believable with the fact they were the same gender being treated as no big deal (and I don't recall any comments being made about the genders of the couple at all).
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Aug 25, 2021 10:15
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Bruceski posted:I liked the part where Picard says "oh, you mean slaves, this hadn't occurred to me" and Guinan gives him a Look. They really play fast and loose with "social concepts that are forgotten in the 24th century." Like, everyone's hanging around the holodeck LARPing Shakespeare and Sherlock Holmes novels, but you start talking about slavery, drug addiction, racial/gender inequality everyone's like "How could a society even be so corrupt?" At best, Star Trek TNG can say they touch upon these issues, but the majority of social episodes tend to either be a Prime Directive handwashing of the situation with the message "Do better. Like us, the perfect Federation," or solving a problem for a small percentage of people they directly interacted with, and marking the bigger problem as too systematic for them to handle on an hour of TV. Even the "Is Data property?" episode gets ruined twice, when they reveal the hologram slaves in Voyager, and then directly ruined in ST: Picard with new Federation androids. But these are emotionless I, Robot style androids, so it's completely different this time...
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Aug 25, 2021 10:21
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