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Lemming posted:https://visagetechnologies.com/face2bmi/#:~:text=A%20collaboration%20of%20researchers%20from,BMI%20from%20social%20media%20images. I mean sure but facebook most certainly isn't going full-bore into VR metaverse stuff because they think it's cool. It's all about that data harvesting, the stuff they can't get yet. I don't think it's overblown in the least.
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Aug 25, 2021 02:02
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KakerMix posted:I mean sure but facebook most certainly isn't going full-bore into VR metaverse stuff because they think it's cool. It's all about that data harvesting, the stuff they can't get yet. I don't think it's overblown in the least. Sure, but that's the case with any given platform (including social media). The problem is Facebook or any other large evil company running a giant platform, not that the data they're looking for is all that unique or different compared to what's already available. My point is that it's still the same problem, not something new or unique to VR
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Aug 25, 2021 02:36
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KakerMix posted:I mean sure but facebook most certainly isn't going full-bore into VR metaverse stuff because they think it's cool. It's all about that data harvesting, the stuff they can't get yet. I don't think it's overblown in the least. The difference is fidelity. Sports watches and facebook posts give them brief snippets of your life it can make reasonable guesses from. Tracking you while in VR (especially if the mic's on) gives them literally all of yourself in realtime.
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Aug 25, 2021 02:46
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Lemming posted:Sure, but that's the case with any given platform (including social media). The problem is Facebook or any other large evil company running a giant platform, not that the data they're looking for is all that unique or different compared to what's already available. My point is that it's still the same problem, not something new or unique to VR Neddy Seagoon posted:The difference is fidelity. Sports watches and facebook posts give them brief snippets of your life it can make reasonable guesses from. Tracking you while in VR (especially if the mic's on) gives them literally all of yourself in realtime. Yeah it's this. You know how you can see other people in VR and your brain goes "heh yeah that's (friends name)" because you can see them move like a person? I don't know about you but I typically don't have an entire upper body rig constantly tracking my movement in real time in such a way like VR.
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Aug 25, 2021 03:05
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I think stuff like what you read and talk about and spend your time looking at, posts you make, pictures you take, who you send messages to, etc is a lot more useful and invasive than the ways you play certain VR games. I don't think the data will be anywhere near as useful for years and years, let alone the ability to parse it as effectively as stuff like text which is a lot more information dense and easier to parse Again, I'm not saying there aren't potential issues, I'm saying the current situation we're in is already so incredibly dire that adding VR to it isn't making it that much worse
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Aug 25, 2021 03:33
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Lemming posted:I think stuff like what you read and talk about and spend your time looking at, posts you make, pictures you take, who you send messages to, etc is a lot more useful and invasive than the ways you play certain VR games. I don't think the data will be anywhere near as useful for years and years, let alone the ability to parse it as effectively as stuff like text which is a lot more information dense and easier to parse It's not about "certain VR games", it's about being IN VR full-stop. Why do you think they keep pushing Horizon and being a social platform in VR? You can tell a lot more from who you're talking to, how long you talk to them, the way you talk to them, and how your body language presents during that, than just a bit of text and a photo. Again; VR gives them the complete image of you as a person in real-time. It's not about advertising TO you, it's about giving them a complete image of YOU. Health, opinions, personality, sexuality, you name it, everything in a nice Orwellian package. And, for the umpteenth time, this isn't something they do overnight with a singular decision that today they're just going mask-off evil; They push you a little at a time because you tolerate the little transgressions one-by-one. It's only down the line that all those little individual transgressions add up into, oops, a really big transgression. Neddy Seagoon fucked around with this message at 03:52 on Aug 25, 2021 |
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Aug 25, 2021 03:50
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Neddy Seagoon posted:It's not about "certain VR games", it's about being IN VR full-stop. Why do you think they keep pushing Horizon and being a social platform in VR? You can tell a lot more from who you're talking to, how long you talk to them, the way you talk to them, and how your body language presents during that, than just a bit of text and a photo. Again; VR gives them the complete image of you as a person in real-time. It's not about advertising TO you, it's about giving them a complete image of YOU. Health, opinions, personality, sexuality, you name it, everything in a nice Orwellian package. They don't know enough about VR to make Horizon good and make people actually want to use it, so I don't really have the confidence that they have an order of magnitude more understand of those interactions so well that they can extract useful data there they can't already get somewhere else. quote:You can tell a lot more from who you're talking to, how long you talk to them, the way you talk to them, and how your body language presents during that, than just a bit of text and a photo. This is very froofy. What do you actual mean, concretely? What kind of information are they extracting that they can get money from here, information they don't already have access to through Facebook and social media? They already know who you talk to, how often, in what form. They don't need body language when they can already analyze writing patterns, which is both much more straightforward and more dense than interpreting your entire body language, which isn't necessarily even directed towards anyone in particular. They have access to much larger sets of dense data, like how long you spend reading certain posts, what your reactions are to them, what comments you make (which they can figure your emotional state from), and you're doing tons of those interactions every time you use that kind of social media thing, compared to talking to a much smaller number of people in VR in the same amount of time. What you're describing is something orders of magnitude more difficult and way less specific. Again, they already have access to this kind of information, in much more dense forms, without needing to add VR on top of it. I absolutely agree they are trying to get control of VR as a platform, but the issues we're talking about are basically the same as they are with any other platform. This is not to downplay how dangerous the VR stuff is! But I think you're misjudging how bad things *are right now,* and VR is not some threshold where things are significantly worse.
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Aug 25, 2021 04:20
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gettin mad at all the dick pill ads i'm getting because mark used my quest to analyze my arm movements and determine i've got a tiny pecker
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Aug 25, 2021 04:31
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JUNGLE BOY posted:gettin mad at all the dick pill ads i'm getting because mark used my quest to analyze my arm movements and determine i've got a tiny pecker
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Aug 25, 2021 04:32
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I'm looking forward to the in-game ads. Almost done with your exercise game for today? KFC ad banner with "free delivery" displayed. Gaze lingering on red sports cars? Oh hey look there's a red sports car available in a lot NEAR YOU!
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Aug 25, 2021 04:59
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Here's an actual study regarding what can be gleaned and learned about individuals purely via motion tracking data if you want to see some actual data on this discussion: https://www.nature.com/articles/s41598-020-74486-y quote:These body motions are diagnostic of personal identity, medical conditions, and mental states. Previous work has focused on the identifiability of body motions in idealized situations in which some action is chosen by the study designer. In contrast, our work tests the identifiability of users under typical VR viewing circumstances, with no specially designed identifying task. Out of a pool of 511 participants, the system identifies 95% of users correctly when trained on less than 5 min of tracking data per person
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Aug 25, 2021 05:12
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JUNGLE BOY posted:mark used my quest maybe it was measuring mark's pp, op.
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Aug 25, 2021 06:22
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pun pundit posted:I'm looking forward to the in-game ads. Almost done with your exercise game for today? KFC ad banner with "free delivery" displayed. Gaze lingering on red sports cars? Oh hey look there's a red sports car available in a lot NEAR YOU! Like I figure I'm going to be bombarded with porn and pizza ads, so business as usual
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Aug 25, 2021 06:43
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mutata posted:Here's an actual study regarding what can be gleaned and learned about individuals purely via motion tracking data if you want to see some actual data on this discussion: quote:Merely collecting tracking data of an interaction in VR—even if that interaction is not designed to be identifying—is enough to identify users with alarming accuracy. We propose the greater challenge is not to design identifying interactions but rather to design non-identifying interactions. Yep. The type, amount and fidelity of the data of just how you go to pick something up in VR is probably easy enough for an algorithm to pluck you out of an entire sea of data. Like how you can identify people by their gait, how you interact in VR can just as easily be a 'gait' of sorts, and it looks like this is exactly the case.
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Aug 25, 2021 07:27
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Facebook and other companies don't need to analyze your gait in VR to figure out who you are, since they can do that from your login. But they also (and assuredly all similar kinds of companies) already track you all over the internet even if you don't have a Facebook account. The reason that VR isn't the next step in the destruction of privacy isn't that those tactics aren't possible, it's that they're already doing those things through easier and more robust methods!
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Aug 25, 2021 08:13
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Lemming posted:Facebook and other companies don't need to analyze your gait in VR to figure out who you are, since they can do that from your login. But they also (and assuredly all similar kinds of companies) already track you all over the internet even if you don't have a Facebook account. The reason that VR isn't the next step in the destruction of privacy isn't that those tactics aren't possible, it's that they're already doing those things through easier and more robust methods! More data = better than, I don't know why this is so difficult to grasp. Facebook is not satisfied with what they already have.
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Aug 25, 2021 08:23
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KakerMix posted:More data = better than, I don't know why this is so difficult to grasp. Facebook is not satisfied with what they already have. I'm not sure why you think I'm not acknowledging it is worse quote:Again, I'm not saying there aren't potential issues, I'm saying the current situation we're in is already so incredibly dire that adding VR to it isn't making it that much worse My point is that they are *already doing these kinds of things* at an extremely large scale, without VR. Stuff like talking about fitness and biometric data, etc, I'm pointing out that isn't a next step, it's a current step. I'm not trying to downplay the invasiveness of these companies, I'm pointing out that this is a present thing and not a future thing. Edit: basically, I agree that metaphorically, the implications of VR on privacy are like Facebook throwing a molotov at your house. But also thirty minutes ago they set off a gas explosion and your house is also already mostly burnt down. Lemming fucked around with this message at 09:03 on Aug 25, 2021 |
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Aug 25, 2021 08:35
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Lemming posted:I'm not sure why you think I'm not acknowledging it is worse Again; It''s a question of fidelity; You can pull pretty accurate data from the topics people post about consistently and the like, but VR is real-time full-spectrum recording of you in your entirety and catches all the little things a static image or text, or even a fitness tracker can't. Everything you say, everything you do. Along with the discreet things that might be private and kept off Facebook like, say, your sexual orientation, and Facebook passing that off for, oh, your government to find out  . You can fake a Facebook profile, you can't fake being yourself 100% of the time.KakerMix posted:Yep. The type, amount and fidelity of the data of just how you go to pick something up in VR is probably easy enough for an algorithm to pluck you out of an entire sea of data. Like how you can identify people by their gait, how you interact in VR can just as easily be a 'gait' of sorts, and it looks like this is exactly the case. Hell, if they get their full-body external camera thing out to retail they could literally pick you out of a crowd by your walking gait, height, etc.
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Aug 25, 2021 09:11
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Neddy Seagoon posted:Again; It''s a question of fidelity; You can pull pretty accurate data from the topics people post about consistently and the like, but VR is real-time full-spectrum recording of you in your entirety and catches all the little things a static image or text, or even a fitness tracker can't. Everything you say, everything you do. Along with the discreet things that might be private and kept off Facebook like, say, your sexual orientation, and Facebook passing that off for, oh, your government to find out They can already do that!! They don't need VR to do that. They already have tons of videos of people, from themselves or their friends, and they can extract that information from there, and then they could apply that to whatever else they wanted. They can use patterns of what websites you visit and places you spend more time on (both on the web and physically) to glean that kind of information. I'm not downplaying what they could potentially do with VR (although I'd still argue it will be *a lot* more difficult to extract the most useful data, since your physical movements are relatively data poor compared to information you enter on computers and phones), I'm pointing out that they can already do basically all the things that are being suggested as spooky potential intrusions through VR.
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Aug 25, 2021 10:14
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Neddy Seagoon posted:Along with the discreet things that might be private and kept off Facebook like, say, your sexual orientation https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2013/mar/11/facebook-users-reveal-intimate-secrets 8 years ago, using public data only, external researchers got 88% confidence for sexual orientation. Facebook themselves will do much, much better, even if you didn't tick the box. The issues are more that VR gives them an in with non-facebook users, and that it gives them better real-time emotional state/advertising response.
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Aug 25, 2021 10:44
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Xaintrailles posted:https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2013/mar/11/facebook-users-reveal-intimate-secrets Absolutely. The data thing is a red herring, here; they don't want to keep doing what they're doing, VR lets them own an entirely new platform. You can see the kind of interest they had when they tried doing the Facebook phone thing that died, they don't want to just learn more about people, they want to own the things that people spend all their time on. That's their real end goal. Edit: vvvv hey, I'm doing my part 
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Aug 25, 2021 10:49
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VR Megathread: endless discussions about Facebook, not that many VR games though.
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Aug 25, 2021 11:04
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Turin Turambar posted:VR Megathread: endless discussions about Facebook, not that many VR games though. if people just replied with "yeah facebook is evil piece of poo poo" instead of constantly slurping the zucc boot every time a bad thing happens, i think there'd be a lot less derails like this seriously look at this poo poo I said come in! posted:Looking through that dudes Twitter feed, and he is claiming ignorance of not knowing what happened that got him banned for 30 days. Chances are pretty high, but not necessarily fact, that he said something in support of anti-vaxxing, or QAnon. Jokerpilled Drudge posted:9 times out of 10 if someone is claiming to be wronged by a facebook ban (ONLY WRT VR gaming) they are full of poo poo lmfao vvvv: incredible Truga fucked around with this message at 11:51 on Aug 25, 2021 |
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Aug 25, 2021 11:38
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Truga posted:if people just replied with "yeah facebook is evil piece of poo poo" instead of constantly slurping the zucc boot every time a bad thing happens, i think there'd be a lot less derails like this Better than the same four posters back patting each other over about thirty posts a day about how surprised they are Facebook still sucks
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Aug 25, 2021 11:46
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I'm sure the facebook stuff has been litigated more than the drat vtuber stuff.
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Aug 25, 2021 12:11
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 I don't wanna come off as a hipster, but I vastly prefer the original Rez to this version.
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Aug 25, 2021 13:44
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I got my new gpu and it's friggin crazy how much of a difference it makes when you jack up the resolution, even for the Quest 2 which I figured had a pretty low ceiling for what it could achieve graphically. I didn't realize until now just how much I was banging rocks together before w/r/t VR fidelity with my 1070. Oh and facebook's an evil piece of poo poo! Yeah!!!
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Aug 25, 2021 14:08
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explosivo posted:I got my new gpu and it's friggin crazy how much of a difference it makes when you jack up the resolution, even for the Quest 2 which I figured had a pretty low ceiling for what it could achieve graphically. I didn't realize until now just how much I was banging rocks together before w/r/t VR fidelity with my 1070. That's good to know, I've got a 1070 as well. Been trying to decide if there is even a reason to jump through all hoops and expense of upgrading. Ordered the new Quest2 yesterday and arrives today. Facebook evil, but those are solid logistics. Still annoyed that my Quest1 locked itself into a boot loop (from a firmware upgrade? who knows) but most of my games are in the Oculus store, the vendor lock-in is real and I guess I'm not getting out of it.
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Aug 25, 2021 14:23
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If you want to talk Facebook's evils, talk about the new Quest dashboard where nothing's clearly labelled, Air Link is behind the battery meters and the settings menu is in the apps list.
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Aug 25, 2021 14:32
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I've moved to a 3060 and it's a big step up from the 1060; Alyx still tells me that I'm running low on VRAM despite having twice as much now, but I'm running it at max settings at 120hz and full res with acceptable frames, so whatever. It may just be the Citrix virtual drivers I have for work throwing it off, I dunno.
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Aug 25, 2021 14:40
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Nukelear v.2 posted:Still annoyed that my Quest1 locked itself into a boot loop (from a firmware upgrade? who knows) but most of my games are in the Oculus store, the vendor lock-in is real and I guess I'm not getting out of it. My Rift S took a dump after a recent software update, too. I have babied the unit, never twisting or stepping on the cable, and plugged each cable into the same ports (upgraded from 980 ti to 3080 in October 2020, so different DP port, I guess) since buying it in November 2019. I never had an issue until the most recent software update. Now I get USB errors on the reg that don't seem to actually be a hardware issue. Restarting the Oculus service with Oculus Tray Tool several times eventually fixes without having to reseat cables and remains fixed until I restart the computer. I shouldn't be surprised, given they discontinued the headset after a whole 15 months of availability. Come to think of it, the first Quest was discontinued after about 15 months, too, although you could at least buy replacement controllers for the Quest for some time. I don't know if Rift S Touch controllers were ever sold directly by Oculus past December 2019. They've been listed out of stock every time I've looked since getting the headset. The rubber fell out of place on my left controller's trigger, causing it to squeak, and I wanted to buy a spare for when it inevitably bites the dust, but I'm not about to drop $120+ on a controller on eBay. Doctor_Fruitbat posted:I've moved to a 3060 and it's a big step up from the 1060; Alyx still tells me that I'm running low on VRAM despite having twice as much now, but I'm running it at max settings at 120hz and full res with acceptable frames, so whatever. It may just be the Citrix virtual drivers I have for work throwing it off, I dunno. I think Alyx is just misguided. My 980 ti gave me that error and I thought "I guess it makes sense," but the 3080 has 4GB more VRAM and still gives me the error. I had more than enough headroom to crank up supersampling on top of maxing out the settings in-game after the upgrade, though. Helps that I'm running a lower resolution display at a lower frame rate.
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Aug 25, 2021 14:59
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I laughed really hard last night when I set the streaming quality to Ultra in Virtual desktop and it played the UT "HOLY poo poo" sound effect 
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Aug 25, 2021 15:44
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njsykora posted:If you want to talk Facebook's evils, talk about the new Quest dashboard where nothing's clearly labelled, Air Link is behind the battery meters and the settings menu is in the apps list. I dislike the changes in the tv app, how the information of the video is now more hidden behind an extra click, and how after all this time, you still can't order by date, you can't customize the categories or basically, do anything. Their categories are crap too, just today I saw that 'Editor's pick' category and 'must see videos' were 99% the same.
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Aug 25, 2021 15:45
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BTW, you guys have watched Nightmara? That's serious competition to the other Quill creators, Studio Syro!
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Aug 25, 2021 15:53
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explosivo posted:I got my new gpu and it's friggin crazy how much of a difference it makes when you jack up the resolution, even for the Quest 2 which I figured had a pretty low ceiling for what it could achieve graphically I guess the Quest 2 still has a pretty high res panel, and once you're doing PCVR its relatively low processing/GPU power is irrelevant as the PC is doing the work.
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Aug 25, 2021 17:02
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Bloodplay it again posted:My Rift S took a dump after a recent software update, too. I have babied the unit, never twisting or stepping on the cable, and plugged each cable into the same ports (upgraded from 980 ti to 3080 in October 2020, so different DP port, I guess) since buying it in November 2019. I never had an issue until the most recent software update. Now I get USB errors on the reg that don't seem to actually be a hardware issue. Restarting the Oculus service with Oculus Tray Tool several times eventually fixes without having to reseat cables and remains fixed until I restart the computer. After my Quest died I went scouring the internet and it really seems like the overall quality of Oculus is declining. Every successive release made my Quest worse until the day it died and it seems the 2 and S are in similar camps. Hoping they turn it around because if Oculus sours people on VR or gets shuttered, it would be a massive blow to VR as a whole.
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Aug 25, 2021 17:37
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Lemming posted:You can see the kind of interest they had when they tried doing the Facebook phone thing that died what was the Facebook phone thing?
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Aug 25, 2021 17:44
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raditts posted:what was the Facebook phone thing? https://www.cnet.com/tech/mobile/heres-why-the-facebook-phone-flopped/
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Aug 25, 2021 17:49
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explosivo posted:I got my new gpu and it's friggin crazy how much of a difference it makes when you jack up the resolution, even for the Quest 2 which I figured had a pretty low ceiling for what it could achieve graphically. It's higher resolution than Index , and 120hz. That's enough vr headset to need a 3080.
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Aug 25, 2021 18:06
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Turin Turambar posted:It's higher resolution than Index , and 120hz. That's enough vr headset to need a 3080. It makes complete sense, I just never realized HOW much of a difference it would actually make until I saw it for myself. And I only had time for like half a round of Take and hold, I can't wait to see how much better Alyx looks now.
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Aug 25, 2021 18:11
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