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Evil Fluffy posted:Shallan was the worst character until RoW. Now she’s solidly in second place and I have a hard time believing the new champion will be dethroned. At least I hope not because said character is worse than dead weight. Insert obligatory post in defense of Shallan, who I relate to way more than I relate to Sab669 posted:My suspicion was that, at least with Kaladin, Sanderson is trying to be cognizant of the fact that depression often times isn't just like, <make a realization / shift in perspective> <never be depressed again>. Nah, that poo poo is recurring for many many people. He's on record about wanting to depict depression respectfully and realistically, because many people close to him have depression (his wife is one, I believe, according to a WoB I can't be bothered to dig up right now). Shallan, on the other hand, was not originally intended to be a genuine depiction of DID and he's ALSO on record about her issues being magical-related, and I even had a theory at one point that it wasn't just a Shallan issue, that it was a Lightweaver side effect of going too deep into their powers and hence the requirement for Lightweavers to speak truths rather than oaths beyond the first. By the time he got to Oathbringer, though, I think the fact that whether he willed it or no, most people assumed Shallan was his attempt at depicting and representing DID in his works. That meant he went away, did some reflection, and then decided to change it going forward. Pretty admirable of him, because most other authors would either avoid or push back on the issue. RoW had a lot of input from beta/sensitivity readers who have DID and he did a pretty long post on how taking aboard their feedback made the writing better. (for those who still hate the Shallan sections, I dunno what to say, other than not everyone is gonna love reading every character, because I sure wanted to skip all of the Kaladin in the tower die hard stuff, and honestly on rereads I want to skip most of the Kaladin sections too) th3t00t posted:I thought Sanderson did a good job with Kaladin and his mental illness in the earlier parts of RoW. Kaladin becoming more and more shell shocked and unable to perform in battle was good, Kaladin's existential crisis following his forced retirement from combat was good and his struggles with his Father, were well done. But then it was just a chore to read "Kaldadin does his best Diehard impression, but super depressed the whole time" for most of the 2nd half of the book. Part of it is the feeling that Kaladin has gone through the same struggle over and over (for three previous books), but I think the main reason is Sanderson messed up his promises here. We were promised Kaladin being a pioneering mental healthcare professional and then the plot went elsewhere, but all I wanted to see was Kaladin doing more of the mental healthcare stuff because that was new and interesting (whereas the die hard stuff was not).
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Aug 24, 2021 16:05
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Leng posted:Shallan, on the other hand, was not originally intended to be a genuine depiction of DID and he's ALSO on record about her issues being magical-related, and I even had a theory at one point that it wasn't just a Shallan issue, that it was a Lightweaver side effect of going too deep into their powers and hence the requirement for Lightweavers to speak truths rather than oaths beyond the first. Also, she's really, really bad at speaking truths. Especially about herself.
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Aug 24, 2021 16:14
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We may still get more mental healthcare Kaladin in book five, especially given that (RoW) he's no longer in charge of an army, and it seems fairly likely that since we're at the end of this initial arc, he speaks the fifth ideal and becomes new Honour or some other abstract force or being. At this point he's one of the most powerful entities in the Stormlight world, and the battles he may need to fight may not be mundane enough to simply require brute force.
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Aug 24, 2021 16:25
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If he is putting some real effort into making mental issues more real I’ll give him credit for it. I don’t know, just kinda comes off a little hackey when it’s coming from a middle aged white guy mormon I guess? Like if you wanna go into depression and DID, don’t dip your toe in, you loving wade into the grimey mess of it. I do think he’s pretty decent writer all in all though.
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Aug 24, 2021 21:10
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Invalid Validation posted:Like if you wanna go into depression and DID, don’t dip your toe in, you loving wade into the grimey mess of it. I don't understand this. I can't think of specifics off the top of my head but there were lots of times reading Kaladin's inner thoughts and I'm just like, "Yea that mentality/perspective makes complete sense to me". I don't think he's only "dipped his toes in" at all  poo poo, Kal was super close to going full blown Honor Chasm in WOK.
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Aug 24, 2021 21:22
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Sab669 posted:I don't understand this. I can't think of specifics off the top of my head but there were lots of times reading Kaladin's inner thoughts and I'm just like, "Yea that mentality/perspective makes complete sense to me". I don't think he's only "dipped his toes in" at all Yeah nothing about Kaladin is "dipping a toe in" any other fantasy author would of had him magically fixed after the first book.
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Aug 24, 2021 21:24
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Yea but nothing really compares to it after that. He basically becomes a mopey superhero.
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Aug 24, 2021 21:37
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Invalid Validation posted:Yea but nothing really compares to it after that. He basically becomes a mopey superhero. classic anime trope
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Aug 24, 2021 21:39
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Right, because he has gotten healthier with each book. Not healthy, not cured, just less severely depressed.
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Aug 24, 2021 21:40
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Invalid Validation posted:Yea but nothing really compares to it after that. He basically becomes a mopey superhero. He (RoW)literally gets to the same point at the climax - except he actually jumps.
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Aug 24, 2021 21:46
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I get it I just think it leans more on the Saturday morning cartoon version of depression.
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Aug 24, 2021 21:47
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Invalid Validation posted:If he is putting some real effort into making mental issues more real I’ll give him credit for it. I don’t know, just kinda comes off a little hackey when it’s coming from a middle aged white guy mormon I guess? Now that I think of it, Utah also has super high rates of cosmetic surgery too, you see that poo poo on billboards there constantly; maybe inspiration for lightweaving? edit: literally the #1 state in the country - https://www.usatoday.com/in-depth/news/health/2018/12/06/depression-rates-rise-utah-looking-slow-increase/2213071002/
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Aug 24, 2021 21:57
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kaladin's too depressed and mopey. also not depressed enough, imo
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Aug 24, 2021 22:17
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Invalid Validation posted:I get it I just think it leans more on the Saturday morning cartoon version of depression. Depression is a pretty big spectrum and no portrayal is going to map right onto everyone's experience. IMO, the portrayal is extremely accurate and feels very real based on my own experience with it, minus actual suicide attempts. On the flip side most people do not identify with the mental health struggles of Shallan but a few really do. It makes sense to me that his portrayal is good but doesn't resonate with anyone who hasn't experienced that before - and since DID is way less common than depression so more people are put off by it.
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Aug 25, 2021 00:06
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Taffer posted:Depression is a pretty big spectrum and no portrayal is going to map right onto everyone's experience. IMO, the portrayal is extremely accurate and feels very real based on my own experience with it, minus actual suicide attempts. yeah, in terms of the 'is he putting real effort to portray these accurately' question the answer seems to be an overwhelming yes. probably sanderson's most admirable trait as a writer recently has been, by all accounts, spending more and more time genuinely engaging with people with experiences way different than his own (not just on depression/DID/addiction but also on sexuality and gender) and making sure those people exist in his world too. this may result in some cringey moments here and there but i'll take it over the alternative any day
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Aug 25, 2021 00:44
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You’re right I’m probably more harsh on it than I should. I do enjoy what books I’ve read so far of his. He does crazy rear end word building pretty good. Doesn’t need to overly explain it either which I appreciate, can use metals to see the ghost of Christmas past? Sure why not?
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Aug 25, 2021 01:01
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If you want trauma and depression and crazy rear end worldbuilding, there's also Worth the Candle, which recently finished. It's definitely Not For Everyone though, it has the "rational fiction" style that not everyone likes, and it's considerably darker and grimmer overall than Sanderson's work.
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Aug 25, 2021 01:32
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Invalid Validation posted:Both Shallan and Kaladin have a problem of reverting most of their character growth between books. I really loved Kaladins growth in the first book and his origin story was genuinely great. You could tell he blew his load on it and needed to start over to give him something to work on again in subsequent books. Potato Salad posted:You know what, I think I'm actually looking for excuses to give the author, but the idea that traumas and problems are a two steps forward, one step back kind of cycle is suddenly very very relatable and real to me Other subsequent posts covered it but yeah, two steps forward one step back is a very realistic way to depict it. It's not meeting narrative expectations which can be unsatisfying but it's accurate, and I'm of the opinion that it's deliberate but that he screws it up on occasion. Guy is a craftsman and not a savant - he keeps grinding it out and every work is a little better than the last, but he has to make a bunch of errors in the process road potato posted:That whole thing made sense when I learned that he lives and teaches in Utah, and is a member of the Latter Day Saints church. It's clear that he knows about and is critical of arbitrary enforcement of specific hierarchical gender roles and taboos because of his lived experience. I used to live an an area with a lot of Mormons and knew a bunch of Mormon families, and that safehand stuff totally tracks. Yeah my opinion of him and his books went from like, to hate because it was obvious just Mormonism fiction, to suspicion he was just catering to popular trends to make money for tithing, to like again when he depicted people with addictions, with weird sexual orientations, with very un-Mormon behavior with sympathy even if he got the details slightly wrong. It's clear he's sincere about caring about EVERY perspective, and solicits input from actual people about their experience
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Aug 25, 2021 15:07
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DarkHorse posted:It's clear he's sincere about caring about EVERY perspective, and solicits input from actual people about their experience I agree and this is something I like about him as well. But it was really evident in especially RoW that this mission has taken over his plotting, pacing, and character development in an unbalanced way, and that the overall quality of the book suffered for it. I still support him in his sincere caring about accurate perspectives, I just hope in his future works he can achieve this mission without sabotaging his other writing strengths. And like you said, he is a craftsman who keeps working to improve so he probably will.
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Aug 25, 2021 16:12
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Sab669 posted:Right, because he has gotten healthier with each book. Not healthy, not cured, just less severely depressed. It sounds like they both have PTSD, and that is something that isn't magically cured. That being said, the "woe is me" chapters do tend to drag on and get grating.
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Aug 25, 2021 21:05
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AnimeIsTrash posted:It sounds like they both have PTSD, and that is something that isn't magically cured. That being said, the "woe is me" chapters do tend to drag on and get grating. Kaladin also has depression, in the first book he mentions always being kinda overly sad randomly since childhood and that it seemed to coincide with rain/the seasons.
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Aug 25, 2021 21:07
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General Stormlight spoilers:I I recently had a thought that Brandon built in some nice limiter to prevent some powers and thus people from being just too extreme. As we've seen, bondsmiths unchained by Honor are capable of some unbelievable feats, and the narration is at pains to point out that Dalinar (and Ishar) haven't used the full potential of their powers yet. I expect we will see some truly gaga stuff from them in book 5. But Brandon can always use an emergency brake here. Only three spren can make somebody a bondsmith, and these spren are fare more self-aware, and have far more agency, than the other unbonded radiant spren. They can simply refuse to bond any more humans. Two are already bound, but their radiants are not exactly young. Coupled with a time skip, that problem can solve itself. And it wouldn't surprise me if Ishar's blade gets destroyed by Nightblood in the next book, eliminating the last avenue to get bondsmith powers. That's imho pretty well planned out by Brandon.
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Aug 27, 2021 21:31
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Torrannor posted:
I am definitely extremely excited to see Dalinar Unchained. Can't even guess what he'll be able to do when interacting with another Order of KR Torrannor posted:And it wouldn't surprise me if Ishar's blade gets destroyed by Nightblood in the next book, eliminating the last avenue to get bondsmith powers. That's imho pretty well planned out by Brandon. It... never even occurred to me to ask, "What if someone took Ishar's blade" 
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Aug 27, 2021 22:13
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Sab669 posted:I am definitely extremely excited to see Dalinar Unchained. Can't even guess what he'll be able to do when interacting with another Order of KR imo a cool thing about Connection shenanigans is that they are so wild that people might literally be limited by their imagination like clearly dalinar had no idea the kind of bullshit Ishar was pulling was even within the realm of possibility, even if Dalinar's magic isn't strong enough to do most of it. someone taking that honorblade might legit be unable to use it effectively unless they have the knowledge component
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Aug 27, 2021 22:48
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I want more nightblood
Calidus fucked around with this message at 23:20 on Aug 27, 2021 |
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Aug 27, 2021 23:15
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Calidus posted:I want more nightblood Here here! Give him his own POV in arc one and watch everyone gasp.
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Aug 27, 2021 23:26
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Yea; Nightblood Novella when???
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Aug 27, 2021 23:41
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Isn't the next book Szeth's? I figure we should get something there. But yeah knowing him it'll be a novella like Edgedancer and Dawnshard (They both should've been in the books proper.)
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Aug 28, 2021 01:15
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Just started reading, and yet also just about to wrap up, Emperors Soul. Why didn’t I read it sooner? Cool magic system and I’m looking forward to seeing how things fold into the greater Cosmere other than the mention of the three realms.
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Aug 28, 2021 02:15
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eke out posted:imo a cool thing about Connection shenanigans is that they are so wild that people might literally be limited by their imagination I wondered about that for possibilities the other day. Connection amulets in Wax and Wayne let you talk like you grew up somewhere even if it is with a weird accent, could you change that Connection permanently? Could you remove the Connection two friends have? Like all of a sudden Wayne is Ishar's best friend instead of Wax? I don't think we currently know enough to be sure, but weird poo poo like that might be possible with the connections people have to other people or to a particular cause or ideal.
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Aug 28, 2021 19:40
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seaborgium posted:I wondered about that for possibilities the other day. Connection amulets in Wax and Wayne let you talk like you grew up somewhere even if it is with a weird accent, could you change that Connection permanently? Could you remove the Connection two friends have? Like all of a sudden Wayne is Ishar's best friend instead of Wax? I don't think we currently know enough to be sure, but weird poo poo like that might be possible with the connections people have to other people or to a particular cause or ideal. You could absolutely do that
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Aug 28, 2021 20:17
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seaborgium posted:I wondered about that for possibilities the other day. Connection amulets in Wax and Wayne let you talk like you grew up somewhere even if it is with a weird accent, could you change that Connection permanently? Could you remove the Connection two friends have? Like all of a sudden Wayne is Ishar's best friend instead of Wax? I don't think we currently know enough to be sure, but weird poo poo like that might be possible with the connections people have to other people or to a particular cause or ideal. Pretty sure it's "you couldn't before (because Honor limited the powers of bondsmiths), but you can now".
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Aug 28, 2021 22:04
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Sab669 posted:It... never even occurred to me to ask, "What if someone took Ishar's blade" Somebody did. Many somebodies, in fact. The Shin had it all along, and Szeth's dad was the carrier of Ishar's blade until Ishar decided he wanted it back. Also don't forget that Szeth had trained with all 10 Surges, and the only blade the Shin did not have was Taln's. Since each blade grants access to 2 different Surges, while he didn't need to train with all 9 blades (theoretically you could cover all 10 Surges with just 5 blades), it's possible Szeth himself has trained with Ishar's blade too, seeing how his father carried it
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Aug 29, 2021 00:08
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Sab669 posted:Yea; Nightblood Novella when??? Not a novella; Nightblood the novel (sequel to Warbreaker), and according to the last State of the Sanderson, it'll happen eventually at some point after Stormlight Five (soooooo, not before 2023) Barreft posted:Isn't the next book Szeth's? I figure we should get something there. Next book is Szeth flashbacks and I am so looking forward to the Szeth and Kaladin buddy cop adventure to Shinovar where Kaladin tries to stop Szeth from fulfilling his Ideal of Crusade because it involves mass slaughter of the Stone Shamans and a large part/most of the Shin while having to cure Ishar's magical insanity, which as we saw from the RoW climax means Kaladin most probably needs to swear the Fifth Ideal to make that happen
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Aug 29, 2021 00:13
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Watch Shinovar be loving Wakanda. Except probably not since they are explicitly white as dough.
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Aug 29, 2021 00:52
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Leng posted:Somebody did. Many somebodies, in fact. The Shin had it all along, and Szeth's dad was the carrier of Ishar's blade until Ishar decided he wanted it back. I guess I forgot his dad had it. And again it just never occurred to me that he might have used it like Szeth himself used the blade he had when we first met him. I don't recall his training being that well versed. God I can't wait for Book 5 for his flashbacks.
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Aug 29, 2021 00:53
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Did he say he’s gonna do anything meaningful with the cosmere stuff? Like write books about it? Stormlight books kinda hint at a cosmic war but that’s all I’ve seen so far. Admittedly I haven’t read everything he’s written though.
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Aug 29, 2021 01:10
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Invalid Validation posted:Did he say he’s gonna do anything meaningful with the cosmere stuff? Like write books about it? Stormlight books kinda hint at a cosmic war but that’s all I’ve seen so far. Admittedly I haven’t read everything he’s written though. literally the entire rest of his career/life is planned to be spent writing this one metanarrative and we're only reaching the end of the first phase right now, so... yes, i would assume he intends to write books about it lol like sanderson is 45 and now quite earnestly talking about how he simply can't write new, unplanned series anymore because he needs to spend pretty much the remainder of his natural life span finishing the cosmere eke out fucked around with this message at 02:26 on Aug 29, 2021 |
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Aug 29, 2021 02:23
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According to his podcast, he hopes to be done with the Cosmere by the time he turns 70. So… 25 years from now.
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Aug 29, 2021 02:25
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Invalid Validation posted:Did he say he’s gonna do anything meaningful with the cosmere stuff? Like write books about it? Stormlight books kinda hint at a cosmic war but that’s all I’ve seen so far. Admittedly I haven’t read everything he’s written though. my understanding is that dragonsteel, the post almost everything Cosmere series will be about the assassination of adonalisium, the God that all of these shards were broken off of. it'll be followed by one final series to cap everything off with. also, somewhat more immediate spoilers for post Stormlight we've seen from the preview of the next sixth of the dusk book that radiants will be in conflict with allomamcers which is a more direct interaction than we've seen outside of hoid
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Aug 29, 2021 03:10
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