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They can't be reached. Closest I've come is reminding them that most people largely want the same things out of life but disagree how to go about it and hopeless appeals to our commonality but... IT doesn't get me very far.
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Aug 27, 2021 01:37
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I'm curious how one would "reach out" to the people who voted for Obama and were fairly liberal but then voted for Trump, like they're not wrong that nearly all Democrats are more interested in continuing the status quo than actually helping people, and any attempt to tell them "Look, the Dems at least won't make things too much worse and maybe in another four years we can try again for someone actually progressive" isn't going to reach them. That's the kind of talk they were protesting against in the first place. If they're still Trump supporters at this point either they're just all in on accelerationism and are hoping that voting worse people in will lead to the revolution quicker or whatever and don't give a poo poo how it affects vulnerable people, or they've just decided to go all in on hatred and bigotry. So what the hell is anyone supposed to say to change that?
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Aug 27, 2021 02:17
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Dang It Bhabhi! posted:I'm having trouble figuring out the origin of the "Ivermectin = Covid cure" idea, anyone have links/info on who first advanced it? It's usually some rear end in a top hat like Dennis Montgomery or Larry Nichols. Don't know about first, but I'm guessing this played a role: https://academic.oup.com/ofid/advance-article/doi/10.1093/ofid/ofab358/6316214 Which has recently been retracted: https://academic.oup.com/ofid/article/8/8/ofab394/6346765 Edit: as for the main author: https://twitter.com/DrAndrewHill/status/1427279978673197059 Seems on the level at a glance at least.
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Aug 27, 2021 04:45
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Twelve by Pies posted:I'm curious how one would "reach out" to the people who voted for Obama and were fairly liberal but then voted for Trump, like they're not wrong that nearly all Democrats are more interested in continuing the status quo than actually helping people, and any attempt to tell them "Look, the Dems at least won't make things too much worse and maybe in another four years we can try again for someone actually progressive" isn't going to reach them. That's the kind of talk they were protesting against in the first place. If they're still Trump supporters at this point either they're just all in on accelerationism and are hoping that voting worse people in will lead to the revolution quicker or whatever and don't give a poo poo how it affects vulnerable people, or they've just decided to go all in on hatred and bigotry. So what the hell is anyone supposed to say to change that? Part of the problem is the vast majority of Americans are stupid, ignorant, and almost totally uninterested. They pick a candidate based on a soundbite or a feeling or a photo.
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Aug 27, 2021 05:49
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pseudanonymous posted:Part of the problem is the vast majority of Americans are stupid, ignorant, and almost totally uninterested. They pick a candidate based on a soundbite or a feeling or a photo. They're still Americans. And they're still human - which means, yes, they make most of their decisions based more on emotion and feelings instead of logic. That's not going to change. It's a very historically relevant and important human trait to understand. We can thank modern psychiatry for giving us the general terms and broad understanding to give us a way to recognize and experiment with this trait of humanity. But since science is blind, some people will use or amplify the use of this new understanding for good or for ill or for both. Hating the other person is just hating ourselves. Focus on the amplifiers who are really causing the harm and not the people caught - just as we shouldn't blame deer for getting caught in the headlights.
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Aug 27, 2021 06:02
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Guavanaut posted:A bunch of those types were Ron Paul 2012 too, so it's less of a commitment to the ideals of democratic socialism and more "this guy says he hates the system" regardless of how or why. People also just have an innate tendency towards extremism. Like if a thousand people are all about some cause, a handful of them will almost inevitably take it too far. In communities that really push to radicalize members, the number is somewhat larger. Doesn't really matter whether it's left or right or if it's even political. People do the same stuff over religion, or, hell, even over video games
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Aug 27, 2021 07:37
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ashpanash posted:Don't know about first, but I'm guessing this played a role: Thanks this is fascinating and depressing. Par for the course.
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Aug 27, 2021 13:18
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Our society encourages extremism. Look at our mountain dews, Doritos, and corn nuts.
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Aug 27, 2021 14:01
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Cheen posted:Our society encourages extremism. Look at our mountain dews, Doritos, and corn nuts. That's the only explanation for this: https://twitter.com/ign/status/1430530663992725504?s=21
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Aug 27, 2021 14:16
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Twelve by Pies posted:I'm curious how one would "reach out" to the people who voted for Obama and were fairly liberal but then voted for Trump, like they're not wrong that nearly all Democrats are more interested in continuing the status quo than actually helping people, and any attempt to tell them "Look, the Dems at least won't make things too much worse and maybe in another four years we can try again for someone actually progressive" isn't going to reach them. That's the kind of talk they were protesting against in the first place. If they're still Trump supporters at this point either they're just all in on accelerationism and are hoping that voting worse people in will lead to the revolution quicker or whatever and don't give a poo poo how it affects vulnerable people, or they've just decided to go all in on hatred and bigotry. So what the hell is anyone supposed to say to change that? You can't change a person's way of thinking, especially if they already think they're right. You can try to appeal to them to think about what you're saying, you can show proof of your clams, etc, but it's almost always falling on deaf ears. We're 18 months into a pandemic and people STILL aren't doing the basic things to protect themselves and their communities. We're STILL arguing over the validity of masks, something we've understood to be a viable way to prevent illness for decades. We're a collapsing country, full stop.
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Aug 27, 2021 14:48
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Twelve by Pies posted:I'm curious how one would "reach out" to the people who voted for Obama and were fairly liberal but then voted for Trump, like they're not wrong that nearly all Democrats are more interested in continuing the status quo than actually helping people, and any attempt to tell them "Look, the Dems at least won't make things too much worse and maybe in another four years we can try again for someone actually progressive" isn't going to reach them. That's the kind of talk they were protesting against in the first place. If they're still Trump supporters at this point either they're just all in on accelerationism and are hoping that voting worse people in will lead to the revolution quicker or whatever and don't give a poo poo how it affects vulnerable people, or they've just decided to go all in on hatred and bigotry. So what the hell is anyone supposed to say to change that? Even if you could reach out to that specific category of people, I'm not sure that would put much of a dent into our problems. The Obama -> Trump voters exist, but the vast majority of MAGA and QAnon types are people who lost their minds once Obama won in 2008. The bulk of the QAnon and COVID-truther types popped their internet-conspiracy-theory cherry with Obama birtherism, and in hindsight it's no surprise that they fell in love with one of the O.G.s of the birther movement. A lot of these folks have been coping with not getting the things they want by diving into ever-crazier conspiracy theories for at least 13 years now. The core of the movement is not anti-establishment types who bounce around looking for whichever candidate is furthest from the mainstream, it's people who have been nursing racist resentments and playing footsie with conservative-slanted conspiracy theories for over a decade.
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Aug 27, 2021 15:42
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pop fly to McGillicutty posted:You can't change a person's way of thinking, especially if they already think they're right. You can try to appeal to them to think about what you're saying, you can show proof of your clams, etc, but it's almost always falling on deaf ears. I agree and feel powerless to do anything about it. It's severely affecting my depression and more and more I just feel like a fish out of water, unable to relate to a huge percentage of people who seem to get a kick out of denying abject reality and are often rather aggressive about it. It's made worse by the employer/employee situation most of us are facing since the majority of employers seem to be CHUD aligned or right wing adjacent at a minimum. When we're getting bitched out, I hear comments like "this is not some government or union job. Here you WORK". When my boss can't fill a position, it's "nobody wants to work" and never anything HE might be doing to chase off talent or deficiencies in his management style, training methods or approaches toward work flow. He's a franchise owner who bitches about not being able to make money without realizing we're both in the same club and that NOBODY can make any real money anymore. We're ALL hosed. The amount of poo poo he expects me to know for the wage he offers is...pretty much impossible. Every sales person I meet and work with sound like RWM talking head robots spewing whatever they heard on FOX. Every manager spends 95% of their time inventing new spreadsheets, work flows, arbitrary rules and broken systems that take up 1/3 of my work day just dealing with them instead of really streamlining anything or, more to the point, listening to their workers or soliciting their feedback and ideas. Everyone thinks everyone else is lazy for some reason. Sorry...that rant was not really on topic but it is kinda sorta if you squint.
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Aug 27, 2021 16:13
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Dang It Bhabhi! posted:I'm having trouble figuring out the origin of the "Ivermectin = Covid cure" idea, anyone have links/info on who first advanced it? It's usually some rear end in a top hat like Dennis Montgomery or Larry Nichols. An NBC reporter took a stab at this question yesterday. Click for thread: https://twitter.com/oneunderscore__/status/1431040456364810242 Full article, linked at the end of the thread: https://www.nbcnews.com/tech/tech-news/ivermectin-demand-drives-trump-telemedicine-website-rcna1791
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Aug 27, 2021 16:31
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ashpanash posted:They're still Americans. And they're still human - which means, yes, they make most of their decisions based more on emotion and feelings instead of logic. Or a moth burning itself on an electric light, or a human becoming addicted to heroin. A natural, conditioned response to unnatural stimulus. Even setting aside morality, "gently caress each and every one of them" is a counterproductive policy. Further, not every person radicalized into fascism is a rich white bigot boomer or their privileged alt-right offspring. I suspect the people who survived Canada's indigenous boarding schools have an outsize representation in embracing QAnon-adjacent beliefs. (I can only support this anecdotally, and only for one small region of one province. But I see no reason it wouldn't generalize.) Many of the crazy idiots we talk about here are inheritors of generations of oppression. I believe this. Focus on the amplifiers who are the cause of the harm. It's safer for your soul.
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Aug 27, 2021 17:07
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This Atlantic article contained a useful tidbit I hadn't thought of:quote:To better understand what’s happening in the GOP, think of a person with addiction who over time develops a tolerance; as a result, they need more potent and more frequent doses of the drug to get their desired high. And sometimes even that isn’t enough. They might turn to a more potent drug, which offers a more intense experience and a longer-lasting high, but at the price of considerably more danger. It works as an analogy, but it might be literally true. We're looking at a bunch of drug addicts, and their drug of choice whatever brain chemical rush you get from raging against made up enemies or perceived societal slights. The only path for the addict unaware of the path they are on is to continuously chase that first high, and they will ramp up the intensity and dosage as they keep trying to do that. At some point it has to break, but I don't know what damage will be done before that. e: and Facebook and Youtube are the dealers on every corner handing out doses for free.
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Aug 27, 2021 17:28
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The ultimate high for these addicts in the US right now seems to be denying the very reality of the pandemic, which does indeed seem like a pretty extreme drug. You've got to be extraordinarily worked up to deny the world in front of your own face. e: and to deny the deterioration and death of your friends and family in front of your own face. god drat.
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Aug 27, 2021 17:36
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That reminds me a bit how HIV/AIDS denial conspiracy theories were more likely to take root in communities most heavily affected by it (as well as the usual Icke/Jones style contrarians about everything), famously leading to a conspiracy zine that denied the deterioration and death of its entire staff.
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Aug 27, 2021 17:44
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Powered Descent posted:An NBC reporter took a stab at this question yesterday. Click for thread: loving hell that group of "doctors." fuuuuuuck
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Aug 27, 2021 18:12
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ashpanash posted:Hating the other person is just hating ourselves. Hmm, no, when I hate some rear end in a top hat who kicks their kid out of their house for being trans, l'm not hating myself when I hate them, I'm hating the rear end in a top hat who made a kid homeless. Seriously we already had someone post the "It's like I'm seeing double!" cartoon. ashpanash posted:Focus on the amplifiers who are really causing the harm and not the people caught - just as we shouldn't blame deer for getting caught in the headlights. Chuds actually are causing harm, even if they're victims themselves. I'm not denying that they've been warped by right wing propaganda but they're still causing actual harm to marginalized groups, whether it be by making certain groups live their lives in fear of being attacked through their beliefs, voting in politicians who want to make certain groups' lives more difficult, or even actively attacking people for the crimes of not being straight white cisgender Christians.
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Aug 27, 2021 18:16
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BiggerBoat posted:I agree and feel powerless to do anything about it. It's severely affecting my depression and more and more I just feel like a fish out of water, unable to relate to a huge percentage of people who seem to get a kick out of denying abject reality and are often rather aggressive about it. I fully understand the depression part. It feels like a portion of America is trying to keep us from collapse and the other part is literally trying to kill us all. It's exhausting. Try to find good in your life wherever you can. You've got goons, if nothing else. 
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Aug 27, 2021 19:21
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Yeah for what it's worth BiggerBoat you're a poster I recognize across threads and I enjoy reading your posts. Sorry we're all living in a dumb world.
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Aug 27, 2021 20:00
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Aw, thanks guys. I appreciate it. Part of my problem is watching where I live devolve into a lot of the poo poo we're discussing in this thread. My little town didn't always used to be this way and was kinda/sorta more Jimmy Buffet redneck style wise and not so much Charlie Daniels or Hank Williams. Not so angry and loving mean all the time about everything. Now, it seems like everyone has and ax to grind and is just pissed off about poo poo constantly. There's nowhere to really work here either, which I imagine is part of the stress and good luck trying to earn more than 15 bucks an hour anywhere no matter what you do. I mean, people are upset and rightly so, but they all seem mad at the wrong things and express it in ways that I totally can't identify with. If that makes sense. The gently caress does making your pick up truck louder and putting GIANT WHEELS on it do accomplish anything? Or flying GIANT AMERICAN FLAGS? Punisher stickers and defiantly refusing to wear masks in public? All that. I feel lost. We used to just fish down here, watch a little football and bask in this beautiful beach we have here. Now we collect guns, worship cops and ACT LOUD. i dunno.
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Aug 27, 2021 20:38
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Guavanaut posted:That reminds me a bit how HIV/AIDS denial conspiracy theories were more likely to take root in communities most heavily affected by it (as well as the usual Icke/Jones style contrarians about everything), famously leading to a conspiracy zine that denied the deterioration and death of its entire staff.
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Aug 27, 2021 20:58
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It's interesting how much of the "it was made in a lab but it also can't cause disease but it also hasn't even been isolated yet" rhetoric was carried over unchanged. I guess not surprising when some of the proponents of those are the same people, the professionally wrong types, but still interesting how common they were this time last year (but the 'not yet isolated' one at least seems a lot less common now).
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Aug 27, 2021 21:39
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The specific statements people make to justify their position are not necessarily important because the statements follow from the core belief and saying them is the act of reinforcing it. So they don't have to be internally consistent, they're just a mantra you repeat to make yourself feel better.
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Aug 28, 2021 01:46
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BiggerBoat posted:Aw, thanks guys. I appreciate it. I think Orwell really knew what he was talking about when he wrote, in 1984, about the impossibility of revolution when you don't even have the words for it. A lot of these folks have no way to consider what the cause of their problems (capitalism) and have been brain poisoned against the solution (socialism.) Somebody with a smartphone has literally the whole knowledge of mankind in the palm of their loving hands, but they've been poisoned for so long that they can't grasp it. It's really loving depressing, but I honestly think the only cure is "the consequences of their own actions, until they open their loving eyes or die (possibly taking the rest of us with them.)" Also, you're a good poster, Bigget Boat. Hope you can get some help. Agents are GO! fucked around with this message at 02:36 on Aug 28, 2021 |
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Aug 28, 2021 02:33
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ashpanash posted:
What an useless platitude (that isn't true), probably born out of massive privilege. quote:Focus on the amplifiers who are really causing the harm and not the people caught - just as we shouldn't blame deer for getting caught in the headlights. The people "caught" (because they love it) are the ones causing the harm. And do you really think the people who hate them don't hate the amplifiers? Hate is not a limited resource. Humans aren't deer. This incredible erasure of all agency is really honestly kind of a pathetic view of humanity. We have the ability to rise above our animal instincts, even the pieces of poo poo we are talk about do it in a hundred different ways on a daily basis. indiscriminately posted:Or a moth burning itself on an electric light, Okay, this is even more pathetic. quote:Even setting aside morality, "gently caress each and every one of them" is a counterproductive policy. Completely moral to hate these people, and hate is an incredibly productive force if it is directed towards things that can be achieved Holy gently caress has hate accomplished a hell of a lot in human history. quote:Further, not every person radicalized into fascism is a rich white bigot boomer or their privileged alt-right offspring. I suspect the people who survived Canada's indigenous boarding schools have an outsize representation in embracing QAnon-adjacent beliefs. (I can only support this anecdotally, and only for one small region of one province. But I see no reason it wouldn't generalize.) Many of the crazy idiots we talk about here are inheritors of generations of oppression. I believe this. Most oppressors are because most people until very recently were oppressed. So what? I don't care if you are a literal Holocaust survivor, if you start oppressing other people, you can get hosed as well. quote:Focus on the amplifiers who are the cause of the harm. It's safer for your soul. I'll focus on each and every cause of the harm. I'll focus on preventing people from becoming like that. It's far more useful in achieving progress, and thus safer for actual decent people instead of metaphysical concepts. Again, nobody really would be arguing against me in this if we talk about say, neo-nazis. Everyone hates someone, but because these particular people who deserve the hate also happen to be relatives and/or friends of people in this discussion, we get this sad equivocating about how they really aren't bad people  Thing is, they are. Doesn't really matter how they got there when making that determination. DarkCrawler fucked around with this message at 04:40 on Aug 28, 2021 |
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Aug 28, 2021 04:29
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I don’t think hate is actually very useful for anything. There’s no way to direct it toward anything productive and talking about it just makes you sound like the joker.
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Aug 28, 2021 04:40
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Antifa Turkeesian posted:I don’t think hate is actually very useful for anything. There’s no way to direct it toward anything productive and talking about it just makes you sound like the joker. Tell that to successful revolutionaries. Any of them, really but you can go with the ones you like, if you want. I can assure that hate was one of the main things motivating them. EDIT: The Joker doesn't really hate anyone, he's a nihilist who doesn't give enough of a poo poo to hate anyone. That's a weird analogy. Pretty sure he actually loves his worst enemy. DarkCrawler fucked around with this message at 04:44 on Aug 28, 2021 |
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Aug 28, 2021 04:41
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I think you’ll find most revolutions are founded on a positively stated conception of justice. Like they say they’re fighting for something or that they want to deliver a certain kind of world to future generations. Other than the scam ones meant to make aristocrats rich, like the US revolution.
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Aug 28, 2021 04:44
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Antifa Turkeesian posted:I think you’ll find most revolutions are founded on a positively stated conception of justice. I'll think you'll find they're founded on that and hatred against all the people and forces standing in the way of that conception of justice. And I'll think you'll find that the latter is required for the former to make any headway. quote:Like they say they’re fighting for something or that they want to deliver a certain kind of world to future generations. Key word: fighting. Hard to do that without hate, either one that already existed or one that arises in the course of that fighting. quote:Other than the scam ones meant to make aristocrats rich, like the US revolution. Nah, they had a positive concept as well (on paper at the least). But they and the people they got to fight for them (note: mostly not rich aristocrats) really hated paying taxes and actually being told what to do by the King. Hence, the incredibly productive results (for good or bad). Hate accomplished a whole lot. DarkCrawler fucked around with this message at 04:53 on Aug 28, 2021 |
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Aug 28, 2021 04:50
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DarkCrawler posted:Key word: fighting. Hard to do that without hate, either one that already existed or one that arises in the course of that fighting. think that's just u, dude
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Aug 28, 2021 07:25
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Based on the Revolutions Podcast, I'd say most revolutions are founded on famines and sudden, sharp declines in the standard of living, but that's just me.
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Aug 28, 2021 09:18
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Anarchy is 3 missed meals away
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Aug 28, 2021 12:23
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Peanut Butler posted:think that's just u, dude I think the historical evidence tells us otherwise.
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Aug 29, 2021 06:27
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BiggerBoat posted:We used to just fish down here, watch a little football and bask in this beautiful beach we have here. Now we collect guns, worship cops and ACT LOUD. Of course it's not everybody, but perceptions are shaped by extremes. Agents are GO! posted:I think Orwell really knew what he was talking about when he wrote, in 1984, about the impossibility of revolution when you don't even have the words for it. A lot of these folks have no way to consider what the cause of their problems (capitalism) and have been brain poisoned against the solution (socialism.) quote:It's really loving depressing, but I honestly think the only cure is "the consequences of their own actions, until they open their loving eyes or die (possibly taking the rest of us with them.)" 
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Aug 30, 2021 17:00
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indiscriminately posted:Same phenomenon in my friendly little hometown. This place weathered meth and opioids but meanwhile the oil & gas industry comes through bringing Fox News supplemented with Facebook and after only a decade or so a plurality of the population has lost their minds. Covid struck pretty lightly, so it's fake, a govt conspiracy. Elderly schoolteachers trying to protect themselves by obeying a mask mandate? They are the enemy, resist. Vaccine finally available after a long delay? Microchips / who knows what the long term effects will be. If/when the delta variant hits it's going to hit hard. I don't know if it's a majority of people or not or if it's just that the assholes are more visible and loud so I just notice it more but it seems like at least half. It's all anecdotal but I'm getting a distinct "there goes the neighborhood" feeling over the last year or 2. It's loving depressing.
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Aug 31, 2021 16:13
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indiscriminately posted:
I was just made aware of this today and at first it's kind of satisfying but after a while it's just really pathetic and grim.
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Sep 3, 2021 15:24
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Local Weather posted:I was just made aware of this today and at first it's kind of satisfying but after a while it's just really pathetic and grim. I just went through this: Yea I started reading thinking it would feel satisfying but it doesn't at all! People suffering sucks.
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Sep 3, 2021 15:33
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I find it endlessly entertaining, aside from the fact that they probably infected dozens or hundreds on their way to the grave. But that gets stopped at the conclusion too, so a happy ending.
DarkCrawler fucked around with this message at 13:24 on Sep 4, 2021 |
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Sep 4, 2021 13:20
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