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Orange Devil posted:Gotta go 3d and have monsters lob poo poo at the party from behind intervening high ground. I think generally minions should be identifiable. When I ran Encounters all the tokens it used had minion specific tokens so players could tell at a glance that something was a minion or not.
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Aug 23, 2021 11:00
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I make it clear which are minions because it feels bad to waste a good power on a single minion.
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Aug 23, 2021 11:08
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It completely tracks with the idea that 4E characters are experienced adventurers and can probably tell roughly which orc is one grunt of many and which has more confidence/battle scars/totems on their bow, or that the maggots spawned by the mobile trash heap aren't the main threat unless you ignore their spawning. Or later on, that they've by now slain elite orcs in their hundreds so that squad of orc captains isn't even a problem anymore, but the demon that's with them is a whole other number. Actually these days I even tend to colour-code my tokens by combat role (minions are greyscale). Adventurers can probably tell which enemy has a crossbow or shoots thorns, or which is in a combat rage or has a large shield or or or. Keeps enemies from looking samey, too. Named enemies are an exception and get full colour cause it seems right to play those cards a little closer to the chest, at the same time it marks them as potentially important to the story.
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Aug 23, 2021 11:23
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It's usually pretty obvious what the minions are anyway when the encounter is like, "Orc barbarian, orc shaman, eight orcs with clubs" but still better safe than sorry
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Aug 23, 2021 11:42
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Out of curiosity I've been reading a bunch of old 4e stuff and I've got a question: given that all the epic level stuff ends up with the main character undergoing some sort of apotheosis, how do you implement that when you've got multiple party members all with their own thing (or perhaps the same thing but seperate)
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Aug 28, 2021 02:30
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I always figured that sort of stuff would flow into some sort of epilogue narration once you were done with the campaign.
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Aug 28, 2021 07:08
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sbbqMoEwDqc
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Aug 28, 2021 09:48
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StashAugustine posted:Out of curiosity I've been reading a bunch of old 4e stuff and I've got a question: given that all the epic level stuff ends up with the main character undergoing some sort of apotheosis, how do you implement that when you've got multiple party members all with their own thing (or perhaps the same thing but seperate) The apotheosis starts when they first pick their Epic Destiny, it just completes once the campaign ends, so you generally use that as part of whatever epic tier plot lines you have going on (considering epic tier is when the PCs start getting involved in divine/interplanar politics). DMG1 p.146-147 explains how it's intended to work.
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Aug 28, 2021 10:08
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In my weekly game I play as Brawler Fighter that MCed into Monk and uses wrestling moves. I got that armor that lets you fall from large drops with no damage and our group got an airship. If things go well, perhaps I may use Slamming Rush to powerbomb someone into a 500 meter drop...
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Aug 29, 2021 17:14
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StashAugustine posted:Out of curiosity I've been reading a bunch of old 4e stuff and I've got a question: given that all the epic level stuff ends up with the main character undergoing some sort of apotheosis, how do you implement that when you've got multiple party members all with their own thing (or perhaps the same thing but seperate) I've never had a player who actually wanted to go through with the apotheosis (like, who the hell wants to become a song or a spell or some poo poo) so it's never come up for me.
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Aug 29, 2021 23:19
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Furthest I ever got was running a 2 year campaign that went from 1-7, then 11-15 after a time jump. I can't imagine bringing a campaign into epic tier. If I ever did I would handle the epic destiny send-offs in an epilogue because what else are you going to do, whittle the party down one player at a time until the last person ascends? Or at least pick one person whose ascension coincides with the ending and everyone else gets a LotR style post-action writeup. In other news our Session 1 happened last week after like 2 years of pathfinder and 5e and starfinder and it's so good to be running 4e again. It's like coming home.
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Aug 30, 2021 19:20
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Orange Devil posted:Also a quick check rules check: am I supposed to tell the players which monsters are minions? The DMGs state that you should identify minions as having worse\shoddier weapons and armor. If the battle's gimmick is not being able to tell minions from the other enemies, like in a clone scenario, sure, but if there's not a good reason, I recommend against it. Namagem fucked around with this message at 00:01 on Sep 2, 2021 |
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Sep 1, 2021 23:56
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I don't suppose there's a resource that has all the magic items in it so I don't have to flip between books? Even just the names and levels would be helpful.
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Sep 3, 2021 09:42
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Here's Everything. Literally everything.
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Sep 3, 2021 09:47
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Devorum posted:I don't suppose there's a resource that has all the magic items in it so I don't have to flip between books? There's multiple compendiums and builders as well.
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Sep 3, 2021 09:47
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Commander Keene posted:Here's Everything. Literally everything. funin.space also works well
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Sep 3, 2021 13:05
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Thanks! That's exactly what I was looking for.
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Sep 3, 2021 15:18
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Commander Keene posted:Here's Everything. Literally everything. I really like this one (I did my own crawl of the compendium using the same program) because it has regex search and filter options, but it does have some quirks. Notably, there seems to be some kind of parse error with the power keywords where any keyword containing "or" gets separated: Force becomes "F" and "ce," Teleportation becomes "Telep" and "tation," Beast Form becomes "Beast F" and "m," and so forth.
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Sep 3, 2021 15:34
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So the game I set up for my group is an ARPG style hub city with a guild that gives quests to clear out living dungeons and other things and retrieve the cores that let them grow. Also has a city-management system tacked on where they can upgrade the hub to get access to better equipment, town defenses, and various temporary buffs. Very LitRPG inspired. The characters can only take Extended Rests in town, or in specially designated areas outside (I put one every X encounters in a Quest area). That's worked well so far, short-circuiting the 5 minute workday without feeling unfair. I'm using Parcels to make sure they get magic items they need...but they also like random items, so I implemented a gacha system where they are rewarded with vouchers as part of quest rewards from the Guild. They can use the vouchers at a kiosk to spit out random magical items. More/Higher Level vouchers have better chances for higher level gear. The players are kind of in love with it, and I can see how people get hooked on loot boxes. I'm having an absolute blast running the game, and encounter design might be my favorite part. I love how it just...works. So far every quest has been full of tense combats and skill challenges. It's so easy to design things with multiple solutions, as well. The players (first time playing 4E) are loving it, too. They've been fully engaged all three sessions so far, with everyone focused on RP and tactics and determining solutions to problems. They're all flabbergasted at the things they heard about 4E when they were first getting into the hobby a few years ago.
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Sep 5, 2021 06:07
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Klungar posted:funin.space also works well I use funin for quick searches myself and tgat one for full options.
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Sep 5, 2021 12:15
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So it looks like I may be taking over DMing for our group that's currently playing 5e. They've given me free reign to pick what game I want to run and I've got a hankering for some tactical combat. I have played 4e with this group once like 8 years ago, but that game ended almost as soon as it started due to IRL junk. They seem to basically have no recollection of any of it. They have played Strike! more recently however. How are people introducing this to people these days? Anyone got any good "4e for the 5e player" blurbs they'd care to share? Also, how are people handling character building? Dump a copy of CBLoader on everyone and turn them loose? Taking turns at a laptop? I'm a little concerned that they might balk at the dozen or so steps to installing an ancient piece of software. I'd basically kill for a terminal server of some kind where I could get everything loaded and then just have them connect remotely, but these things all seem to cost $$$ (for Windows anyway). I think as long as I can get them to the table with characters in hand they'll take to the game, but it's quite a leap from 5e's limited character building options.
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Sep 8, 2021 14:49
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4E for the 5E player seems like just about the same as 4E for the 3.5 player used to be. It's mechanics focused, combat heavy, and it's well balanced on the basis of its rules, if you play to avoid combat or like to extrapolate physics from a spell description you will not have fun. (That last one is mostly implied "at my table" but I've found 4E fits that mindset most.) I'm in a minority of one in that I actively keep character options from my players and restrict them to PHBs, _____ Power books and the Adventurer's Vaults, but it's a hill I'm ready to die on. For actual creation I sit down with everyone in turn way in advance, or I offer any player the opportunity to tell me what they want to play, listing some character archetypes or basic ways to approach combat depending on what every player prefers to put first, and make a character for them.
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Sep 8, 2021 15:32
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My Lovely Horse posted:I'm in a minority of one in that I actively keep character options from my players and restrict them to PHBs, _____ Power books and the Adventurer's Vaults, but it's a hill I'm ready to die on. For actual creation I sit down with everyone in turn way in advance, or I offer any player the opportunity to tell me what they want to play, listing some character archetypes or basic ways to approach combat depending on what every player prefers to put first, and make a character for them. I do the same -- we talk over classes and races, especially focusing on "class is mostly what you do in a fight, not what you are IC, so if you want to play a wizard but be all about healing and buffing, we'll use the stats and rules for a cleric but your character will still be a wizard, ooh or maybe we could make it in the fluff that you're a wizard whose spells work by stealing the power of the gods, reckon that'd be fun?". Then I give them a few choices on the different builds for that class, like do they want to be a melee ranger or an archer ranger or something else, and generate a character based on their decisions. I have one player who loves to go all-in on charop and has apparently planned his advances out to level 30 on a spreadsheet somewhere, but everyone else just let me do the maths and hand them a nicely formatted sheet of their character's abilities.
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Sep 8, 2021 15:59
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I'm working on a 4e hack (aren't we all?) and I wanna reskin six Defenders, six Strikers, and six Leaders. Each can have some Controller mixed in, but I don't want any dedicated Controllers. Going purely by mechanics, what would y'all say are some of the best/your favorite classes? Bonus points if they're ones that have a reasonable power-level without needing to go too deep into CharOp (or if the needed CharOp can be baked straight into the class)? Specificity of flavor isn't a big deal, everything's getting reskinned anyways.
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Sep 22, 2021 23:44
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Ranger, Warlord, Sorcerer, Swordmage, Bard and Warden, are probably my favs.
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Sep 22, 2021 23:55
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girl dick energy posted:I'm working on a 4e hack (aren't we all?) and I wanna reskin six Defenders, six Strikers, and six Leaders. Each can have some Controller mixed in, but I don't want any dedicated Controllers. Going purely by mechanics, what would y'all say are some of the best/your favorite classes? Bonus points if they're ones that have a reasonable power-level without needing to go too deep into CharOp (or if the needed CharOp can be baked straight into the class)? Specificity of flavor isn't a big deal, everything's getting reskinned anyways. There are only really 6-7 in each of those categories to begin with, so you don’t have to cut too much (listed in order of my preference): Defender Fighter Paladin Battlemind Swordmage Warden Berserker Leader Warlord Cleric Bard Artificer Shaman Ardent Striker Rogue Barbarian Ranger Monk Warlock Sorcerer/Avenger (I haven’t played these enough to have a preference)
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Sep 22, 2021 23:58
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If you're deleting Controllers (which is IMO the right choice), remember that makes the Wizard a ranged Defender. As for favourite classes: Fighter, Warlord, Monk, Warden, Barbarian, Shaman, Sorcerer, and Runepriest are all mechanically interesting.
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Sep 23, 2021 08:34
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Without really thinking much about it, I enjoy the Fighter, the Warden, the Swordmage, and the Vampire.
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Sep 23, 2021 14:15
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Yeah, I'd say the Fighter class is kind of a cornerstone of 4e.
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Sep 23, 2021 14:47
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My group is only 5 sessions in, but the Swordmage, Rogue, Warlord, and Wizard are all having a blast so I guess they're my favorites. The Avenger seems to suck real bad so far, even when I design encounters to make them shine. Easily the weakest/most fiddly Striker and one I'd cut with no regrets.
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Sep 23, 2021 15:30
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The Avenger is one of those classes that occupies interesting design space, but that design space doesn't work well with how combats work in 4e. It's a striker designed around doing damage consistently at the cost of burst damage. But burst damage is the name of the game in 4e, so it falters without doing really unintuitive character optimization. You can build avengers to do burst damage in epic, but they're really dumb and incredibly squishy (basically you go morninglord and eternal seeker and basically become a ranger/barbarian/fighter with avenging resolution and a radiant spiked chain to do a stupid amount of hyper accurate multiattacks against permanently radiant vulnerable enemies.)
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Sep 23, 2021 19:52
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Avengers are not the strongest but I think they are a really cool class, and definitely one of the classes I like playing with the most.
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Sep 23, 2021 22:08
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Avengers can be perfectly strong but they need some specific readings of a few encounter powers to let them have smooth scaling. Otherwise they end up with a wonky play experience. Very cleanly good if your ST knows about what they need tho.
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Sep 23, 2021 22:27
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Lemon-Lime posted:remember that makes the Wizard a ranged Defender. Edit: To go into a bit more detail, I'm gonna be using nine classes (three of each kind) for full-scale grid combat, and adapting the other nine for rangeless, slightly more abstracted combat. (i.e., long, drawn-out battles where fighting every enemy group individually would take ages) girl dick energy fucked around with this message at 23:42 on Sep 23, 2021 |
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Sep 23, 2021 23:38
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girl dick energy posted:...Explain. I'm not saying I disagree, but please elaborate. I'm intrigued. Both Controllers and Defenders exist primarily to lock enemies down, which is one of the main reasons why Controllers shouldn't exist as a separate role. If you want to have the 4E Wizard (who is a Controller) in a game with no Controller role, you should make them a Defender/Leader instead (for lockdown+debuffs). 
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Sep 23, 2021 23:58
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girl dick energy posted:...Explain. I'm not saying I disagree, but please elaborate. I'm intrigued. If you eliminate Controllers and must have a wizard (because they're iconic) then that could put them into either the Defender or Striker role. A defender is just a very specific kind of controller*. But instead of just entirely locking things down, they generally (barring tripping/grappling shenanigans) give the enemy a choice of bad or worse. Illusionist, Transmutation, Enchantment, etc wizards are obvious choices that could slot in here with some design work. Evokers generally make people think of Striker, but could also be a Defender if you got creative with elemental zones or something. edit: * Which is why they're dumb, because not only do they just delete peoples' turns, they're also overly broad. ImpactVector fucked around with this message at 00:00 on Sep 24, 2021 |
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Sep 23, 2021 23:58
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ImpactVector posted:If you eliminate Controllers and must have a wizard (because they're iconic) then that could put them into either the Defender or Striker role. Putting them in as a Striker can also work if you move away from the idea of the Wizard having control spells (Grease, Colour Spray, Stinking Cloud, Ray spells, etc.) entirely, but you end up sacrificing too much of the "iconic" D&D wizard stuff if you do that. On the other hand, if the Wizard is a Controller, it can still get the handful of iconic wizard damage spells like Fireball or Lightning Bolt (and Sorcerer already exists as the Striker version of what a Wizard could be). Also it's really funny for the Wizard to be in the same role as the Fighter. Lemon-Lime fucked around with this message at 00:16 on Sep 24, 2021 |
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Sep 24, 2021 00:12
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I object to the idea of the controller role being pointless because there's a meaningful difference between 'capable of limiting how many actions enemies take, and how effectively', and 'capable of determining enemy targeting and positioning'. These things require different tools with different impacts, and I don't think the game is better for just lumping them together in a bucket. There's good and strong role differentiation there. WotC's designers just weren't always very good at showcasing it, is all.
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Sep 24, 2021 02:48
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Transient People posted:I object to the idea of the controller role being pointless because there's a meaningful difference between 'capable of limiting how many actions enemies take, and how effectively', and 'capable of determining enemy targeting and positioning'. These things require different tools with different impacts, and I don't think the game is better for just lumping them together in a bucket. There's good and strong role differentiation there. WotC's designers just weren't always very good at showcasing it, is all.
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Sep 24, 2021 02:51
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It's very funny the first time a controller shuts down a fight completely and everyone just circles the downed enemy and kicks them. Then you realize that this is going to happen in just about every fight, especially as the controller levels.
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Sep 24, 2021 03:12
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