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But again, not because he pretended to be good and awesome, but because he openly showed them what he was and scared the poo poo out of them. He manipulated both of them through despair -- they thought he was so strong that there was no hope in fighting him, but rather that it would be wiser to join him (Saruman) or just give up (Denethor). Nobody had any illusions that he wasn't evil.
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Sep 2, 2021 19:03
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Sauron also does a lot of his work via his emissaries and armies. The Easterlings etc that he gets under his command were probably brought in under a combination of threats, force, and manipulation. But I doubt Sauron was directly involved with most of that. His tactics obviously work pretty well to bring a large contingent of men under his command. His emissaries are less effective in the West but that's because he has such a history of loving with the Western powers that they pretty much trust nothing he says by the third age. But I doubt any but a very small few of his servants ever communicate directly with him. Contrary to the movies portrayal he does have a body in the third age, or at least by the time of the books he does as Gollum remarks on him only having four fingers on his right hand. But even with that, as Denethor notes he won't leave his tower and show up anywhere in person except to gloat when Gondor is defeated.
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Sep 2, 2021 20:52
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Saruman and denethor were also especially susceptible due to their use of their crystal ball use
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Sep 2, 2021 23:36
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We have a taste of Saurons emissaries by the way in the report of the Dwarves at the Counsel of Elrond
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Sep 2, 2021 23:36
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euphronius posted:We have a taste of Saurons emissaries by the way in the report of the Dwarves at the Counsel of Elrond "The time of my thought is my own to spend." "For the present."
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Sep 3, 2021 00:06
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Those dwarves didn’t buy it - in part - because they had been betrayed by Sauron before . I guess you could see it working for nations that Sauron has been better to
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Sep 3, 2021 00:14
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euphronius posted:Those dwarves didn’t buy it - in part - because they had been betrayed by Sauron before . It's also not hard to imagine a pitch to the Easterlings and Southrons and so on, given that Gondor are invading imperialists and are simply presented as "better than you, by default". You get a small taste of it in the TT movie when Saruman revs up the Dunlendings.
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Sep 3, 2021 00:19
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Yeah that was also a good demonstration of the Voice of Saruman (as being basically a vile populist lol)
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Sep 3, 2021 00:20
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Was it ever explained how Gandalf was trapped in, or on, Orthanc? Was it just magic? Were there stairs to the top? Actually I can't remember if he was even at the top in the book.
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Sep 3, 2021 21:00
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Zippy the Bummer posted:Was it ever explained how Gandalf was trapped in, or on, Orthanc? Was it just magic? Were there stairs to the top? Yeah, it’s the top, and the book is surprisingly vague about how it happens. “They took me and they set me alone on the pinnacle of Orthanc, in the place where Saruman was accustomed to watch the stars. There is no descent save by a narrow stair of many thousand steps, and the valley below seems far away.” Who are “they?” It’s really unclear. Possibly Saruman’s gatekeepers, who met him at the wall of Isengard and told him he was expected—but there’s been no mention of them since the very start of the scene, and it doesn’t seem like they followed him into Orthanc for the meeting. Maybe it was other flunkies Saruman had on hand. Or maybe Saruman yelled a bunch of nonsense and then magically yeeted Gandalf into the ceiling, who can say.
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Sep 3, 2021 21:10
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Orc snuck up behind him and put him in a half nelson Turns out Mithrandir is surprisingly vulnerable to common wrestling holds, he's goddamn lucky nobody taught the orcs the Sharpshooter
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Sep 3, 2021 21:46
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Phy posted:Orc snuck up behind him and put him in a half nelson Back of the head with a half-brick in a sock imo.
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Sep 4, 2021 00:26
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Phy posted:Orc snuck up behind him and put him in a half nelson Tell that to Boromir
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Sep 4, 2021 01:32
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Tree Bucket posted:Tell that to Boromir That was the Sharpe shooter.
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Sep 4, 2021 11:05
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Zopotantor posted:That was the Sharpe shooter. 
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Sep 4, 2021 13:56
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This might have already been posted but I just found this retrospective on Bakshi's LOTR. I really enjoyed it even though I never saw the movie. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Cr_rb_pitHk
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Sep 5, 2021 07:03
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It's really good and worth checking out! So are the Rankin/Bass Hobbit and return of the king, even though that production company's best fantasy is the last unicorn
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Sep 5, 2021 08:18
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It's absolute irredeemable shite, but in an entertaining way
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Sep 5, 2021 10:57
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Jackson OTOH, 
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Sep 5, 2021 11:54
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I actually prefer the Bakshi version of the Prancing Pony. John Hurt absolutely nails that scene as Aragorn. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=orLz433Cf-g
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Sep 5, 2021 17:22
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How did the hobbits worship Eru? Like I know the free peoples worship him but do the hobbits time like churches or something?
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Sep 5, 2021 19:20
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Mycroft Holmes posted:How did the hobbits worship Eru? Like I know the free peoples worship him but do the hobbits time like churches or something? Stealing this from a Quora post: Somebody on Quora posted:Tolkien wrote in a footnote to Letter 153 that Hobbits had no practice of worship or prayer:
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Sep 5, 2021 19:31
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Mycroft Holmes posted:How did the hobbits worship Eru? Like I know the free peoples worship him but do the hobbits time like churches or something? They didn’t overtly worship anything/anybody, Frodo and Sam didn’t even understand the rangers in Henneth Annun having a moment of silence before the meal.
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Sep 5, 2021 19:36
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I never got the feeling that anybody ever worshipped Eru so much as acknowledged him as the Creator and went on with their day. Same with the Valar, really. Tolkien's whole thing with the numinous in the Middle-Earth stories seemed to be that it was something real that you interacted with and respected, but in a way similar to any other power or authority - up to and including flipping it the bird and moonwalking out of Paradise if you wanted to. Off the top of my head the only time I recall anything like formal organized religion was when Sauron got the Numenoreans to start worshipping Morgoth and sacrificing people to him on top of the sacred mountain. I am sure I'm forgetting something, though. Edit: yeah, I always forget the Rangers of Ithilien doing their moment of silence. Still not what I'd call worship. Lemniscate Blue fucked around with this message at 19:44 on Sep 5, 2021 |
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Sep 5, 2021 19:41
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The Elves not having worship makes sense since they're immortal timeless beings but it does feel odd that Men/Hobbits wouldn't have some sort of real or imagined gods to worship.
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Sep 5, 2021 20:11
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The Numenoreans practiced religion before Sauron showed up and co-opted it. The center of the island, the Meneltarma, was a holy mountain where the kings ritually prayed to Iluvatar. I think that’s the only case of religious practice that directly invokes God, rather than veneration of the gods/the undying land. Valinorean elves have feasts with the gods which is kind of like religion I guess, but also not quite. There is definitely no church in Tolkien’s fantasy, and when Sauron corrupts Numenor to devil worship he is changing an institution of priest-kingship into a sinister and aggressive popular religion.
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Sep 5, 2021 20:13
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skasion posted:The Numenoreans practiced religion before Sauron showed up and co-opted it. The center of the island, the Meneltarma, was a holy mountain where the kings ritually prayed to Iluvatar. I think that’s the only case of religious practice that directly invokes God, rather than veneration of the gods/the undying land. Valinorean elves have feasts with the gods which is kind of like religion I guess, but also not quite. There is definitely no church in Tolkien’s fantasy, and when Sauron corrupts Numenor to devil worship he is changing an institution of priest-kingship into a sinister and aggressive popular religion. I wonder why he chose not to have religions in his mythology. I'd never really considered that before.
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Sep 5, 2021 20:20
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The elves definitely worship
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Sep 5, 2021 20:37
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shone on his breast. They spoke together, and then suddenly it seemed to Frodo that Arwen turned towards him, and the light of her eyes fell on him from afar and pierced his heart. He stood still enchanted, while the sweet syllables of the Elvish song fell like clear jewels of blended word and melody. ‘It is a song to Elbereth,’ said Bilbo. ‘They will sing that, and other songs of the Blessed Realm, many times tonight. Come on!’ From Rivendell
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Sep 5, 2021 20:40
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Ginette Reno posted:I wonder why he chose not to have religions in his mythology. I'd never really considered that before. He was a devout (really, going to mass every morning) catholic, inventing any other religion would probably have seemed wrong to him.
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Sep 5, 2021 20:49
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There are definitely religions. I mean the rohirim have ancestor worship, the elves worship the gods, lots of people worship Morgoth and Sauron, I think the dwarves do stuff with Aule, etc
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Sep 5, 2021 20:55
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Zopotantor posted:He was a devout (really, going to mass every morning) catholic, inventing any other religion would probably have seemed wrong to him. with many of the oddities around Tolkien, it does come down to he was really, really catholic
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Sep 5, 2021 20:58
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euphronius posted:shone on his breast. They spoke together, and then suddenly it seemed to Frodo that Arwen turned towards him, and the light of her eyes fell on him from afar and pierced his heart. He stood still enchanted, while the sweet syllables of the Elvish song fell like clear jewels of blended word and melody. ‘It is a song to Elbereth,’ said Bilbo. ‘They will sing that, and other songs of the Blessed Realm, many times tonight. Come on!’ I guess there is that a bit but it's not very formalized.
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Sep 5, 2021 21:10
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The Noldor have something fairly close to worship in that they like to pray about how they’ve been expelled from paradise and would like to get back. I would still hesitate to directly identify it with religion though because it’s personal and in a sense informal. There is elvish practice involving the gods, but there is no elvish orthodoxy because most of them just straight up know the gods: there’s nothing to “believe”. It’s a little more like “pagan” religion of antiquity than it is like Abrahamic religions, but even that had its temples and its priesthoods. Elves have neither. A forest is perfectly sacred to them, and so is a hall they built. They barely even have religious ritual beyond like, hanging out and having a really nice meal and singing songs and being chill. It’s a little more like the Christianity of the apostles than it is like the Christianity of the church. More like communion in the literal Latin sense than the later Holy Communion.
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Sep 5, 2021 22:03
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My re-read of Fellowship continues. Moria is still among the most gripping parts of any fantasy to me. Everything about the trek into the dark enthrals me. I think it's the best set-piece Tolkien wrote, personally. One thing I caught this time around is the initial doubt that Aragorn has on the other side; where to now? I never thought of it before but the full route to Mordor that Gandalf intended on was never discussed. I don't recall him ever bringing it up when he returns, but I wonder if he would've considered any other path than the one leading to Shelob. The anger of Caradhras is also intriguing. The previous discussion of the Old Forest got me thinking it might be ticked off by centuries of Dwarfs gutting its insides. BigglesSWE fucked around with this message at 22:07 on Sep 5, 2021 |
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Sep 5, 2021 22:04
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Lemniscate Blue posted:
Even silent grace is prayer
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Sep 5, 2021 22:57
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Arc Hammer posted:I actually prefer the Bakshi version of the Prancing Pony. John Hurt absolutely nails that scene as Aragorn. Vigo is a good Aragorn but I enjoy the wrinkle here of the character being a bit more aged and world weary.
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Sep 5, 2021 23:04
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Ginette Reno posted:I wonder why he chose not to have religions in his mythology. I'd never really considered that before. Zopotantor posted:He was a devout (really, going to mass every morning) catholic, inventing any other religion would probably have seemed wrong to him. That, basically. Remember that the conceit is that it's not only pre-Christ, but pre-Abraham – maybe even pre-Adam, depending on how you want to reconcile the Biblical vs. Silmarillion accounts of how humans originated. God has not yet entered into any Covenants, so there are no terms on which Good People can offer their worship to him, with a rare handful of exceptions (the Kings of Numenor, as mentioned above, and it's conceivable that the seasonal festivals in Valinor might include some prayer to Eru under the Valar's direction).
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Sep 5, 2021 23:53
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Frodo literally does a invocation which is answered. Idk man it all seem pretty religious
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Sep 5, 2021 23:55
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Its more like a magic spell.
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Sep 6, 2021 00:05
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