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Do Australians that choose less efficacious vaccines now get the opportunity to receive better vaccines later? edit:  Children spread COVID and masks don't cause harm. Why are the Australian governments not enforcing children wearing masks with Delta spreading exponentially? droll fucked around with this message at 06:43 on Sep 5, 2021 |
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Sep 5, 2021 06:40
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droll posted:Children spread COVID and masks don't cause harm. Why are the Australian governments not enforcing children wearing masks with Delta spreading exponentially? I think initially the idea was that they wouldn't wear them properly anyway, and people are still in denial about the risk to them.
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Sep 5, 2021 06:51
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droll posted:Do Australians that choose less efficacious vaccines now get the opportunity to receive better vaccines later? The most effective vaccine is the one you can get right now 
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Sep 5, 2021 07:04
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droll posted:Do Australians that choose less efficacious vaccines now get the opportunity to receive better vaccines later? which one do you think is the less efficacious?
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Sep 5, 2021 07:05
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freebooter posted:That's not going to be possible until/unless it mutates down into something less deadly, or unless we carry on with a really strict level of restrictions including the occasional UK-style winter circuit breaker lockdown. Delta is both more contagious and more deadly than the flu. Vaccines are not going to change that (hundreds of people still die annually from the flu even though we have flu vaccines). I'd also point out there's a hypocrisy in forcing the interstate borders to open up when it's not like Scummo is opening up our international borders at the same time. You'd think catching covid from a local would be the same as catching it from someone overseas, but apparently not. It's almost as if this were politically motivated...  Here in WA, the overall attitude toward allowing eastern states people to come here, almost certainly cause an outbreak that rapidly spirals out of control, and burden our already overburdened health system is "no way, get hosed, gently caress off". Sandgropers are really enjoying the lack of mask mandates and the only requirement of going out being you check in using an app. To us, not being able to travel is not the downside eastern staters think it is - Perth people generally go on holiday to Bali or Margaret River, not Sydney, and there's plenty of places to go now Bali is off limits. If you were to ask the average punter from WA how they feel about opening the borders, they say they feel sorry for eastern states people who want to come here to see their families, but interstate travel like that is a want, not a need, and that the needs of the people who already live here trump that. While I don't wholesale agree entirely with that attitude, it's very hard to argue against when, from my perspective, there's so much downside and so little to be gained by us reopening to the eastern states. gay picnic defence posted:Hopefully there’s just enough stress on the health system that anti vaxxers with covid get triaged into the hallway while the ICUs are saved for people who did the right thing. Don't. For that to happen, a whole lot of innocent people have to sicken and die. freebooter posted:Which is why I said it was true at the start but is no longer true now. I'd say this isn't really the fault of the health bureaucracies, though. It's the fault of a government that wants the virus to stop spreading while not doing any of the things that actually stop infected people from mingling with uninfected people. People are dying of COVID in their homes because their families didn't want the authorities to know they had it. Someone in your household having COVID means nobody in that house can work, which often translates to them not having enough money for rent, food, etc. Of course people are going out and about in the community with the virus, the government hasn't presented them with a viable alternative! If the government wanted to stop people spreading covid, they would pay people to stay home, and not just some measly 'disaster payment'. Raise Newstart to a point people aren't having to make the calculation of working and risk catching and spreading the disease, and making rent. Give a hugely generous payout to everyone in a household who has to isolate. Change whatever laws needed to make dismissing someone due to their need to isolate an unfair dismissal. Or pay businesses for the inconveniences for losing their workforce. Or even have a temp workforce they can tap into if the business is actually essential. The long and short of it is "find out the reasons why people are non-compliant, and find ways to make compliance a non-issue".
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Sep 5, 2021 07:08
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spaceblancmange posted:which one do you think is the less efficacious? The one that the data says is less efficacious. Can you share your data that suggests they're all the same?
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Sep 5, 2021 07:10
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droll posted:The one that the data says is less efficacious. Can you share your data that suggests they're all the same? 
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Sep 5, 2021 07:21
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droll posted:The one that the data says is less efficacious. Can you share your data that suggests they're all the same? If you ask a doctor they will tell you to get vaccinated as soon as possible with whatever is available now, they can interpret data too. Virologists don't even fully buy into the "x% efficacious" numbers, it's way more nuanced.
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Sep 5, 2021 07:52
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So is the answer yes or no? Sounds like no?
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Sep 5, 2021 07:57
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droll posted:So is the answer yes or no? Sounds like no? The answer is no but we’re all going to be getting boosters anyway
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Sep 5, 2021 08:01
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droll posted:The one that the data says is less efficacious. Can you share your data that suggests they're all the same? Cannot be arsed digging it out right now, but the data for a while has suggested Pfizer and AZ are equally effective at preventing hospitalisation and death, Pfizer is more effective at preventing symptomatic illness (80-something percent rather than AZ's 60-something percent) but a recent study shows that level of symptomatic effectiveness wanes after a few months and by the 6-month mark it's dropped down to the 60-something percent level too, or maybe slightly below that. Both of them appear to maintain their efficacy at preventing hospitalisation and death. froglet posted:
Yeah, in the same way that Europeans can't imagine Australia's borders being closed because they're obsessed with going to Ibiza or Mallorca twice a year, east coasters can't imagine WA's borders being closed for so long because they're can't imagine not nipping up to Sydney or Noosa all the time. I agree that interstate families cut off from each other does not outweigh the benefits derived for the majority of people who don't have close family out of the state, though I can see how that's harder for some people than it is for me e.g. I have some friends who very unfortunately had a baby right at the start of the pandemic and barely any of their WA family have been able to come meet her and it's like 18 months on now. But at the same time - and I wouldn't voice this to them - that's already kinda part of life when you make the decision to settle down on the other side of the continent, right? My partner has a five year old nephew in New Zealand whom we haven't seen at all except over Facetime for two years now, but let's not pretend that we were going to be a huge part of his life when he's growing up in another country. If we have kids, they're not going to be seeing my parents more than maybe once a year. Neither we nor they would be able to afford to fly back and forth more often than that. I think what's more likely to happen than not is what happened to Victoria: WA (and the other COVID free states) will try to maintain COVID zero into 2022, but it will seep in through truckies or whatever, a snap lockdown will become a longer lockdown, so eventually there'll be an admission of defeat and learning to live with the virus. What's going to be frustrating about that is the smug Sydney types who'll call that some kind of failure. Given that ending up like that, however inevitable it might be, is still the worst-case scenario, there's absolutely nothing wrong with trying to maintain it as long as possible!
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Sep 5, 2021 08:07
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droll posted:Do Australians that choose less efficacious vaccines now get the opportunity to receive better vaccines later? yeah I’m getting sputnik v as soon as the embargo is lifted
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Sep 5, 2021 08:07
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To answer the question since he's weirdly avoiding saying it directly, if you're vaccinated with AZ your booster will be either Pfizer or Moderna
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Sep 5, 2021 08:11
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https://twitter.com/JohnpaulGonzo/status/1434301595328520194?s=20
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Sep 5, 2021 08:16
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birdstrike posted:yeah I’m getting sputnik v as soon as the embargo is lifted What are you talking about?
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Sep 5, 2021 08:19
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droll posted:What are you talking about? getting the better vaccine
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Sep 5, 2021 08:30
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freebooter posted:But at the same time - and I wouldn't voice this to them - that's already kinda part of life when you make the decision to settle down on the other side of the continent, right? My partner has a five year old nephew in New Zealand whom we haven't seen at all except over Facetime for two years now, but let's not pretend that we were going to be a huge part of his life when he's growing up in another country. If we have kids, they're not going to be seeing my parents more than maybe once a year. Neither we nor they would be able to afford to fly back and forth more often than that.
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Sep 5, 2021 12:13
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That's staggeringly stupid, unless you're specifically referring to people who moved away from family in the last year or so.
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Sep 5, 2021 12:34
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Eediot Jedi posted:That's staggeringly stupid, unless you're specifically referring to people who moved away from family in the last year or so. Edit - it is usually stupid to say "all the people", I should have said "a number of people who chose to live away from their families now demand the right to move around and infect families that elected to remain geographically close". The point being that there is an appealing story there of deprivation, which is privileged over the faceless, eventless deprivation of people who go from not having to worry about COVID to having to worry about it. The Artificial Kid fucked around with this message at 13:21 on Sep 5, 2021 |
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Sep 5, 2021 12:40
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The Artificial Kid posted:No, what's staggeringly stupid is focusing solely on the pain of separated families and ignoring the pain of people watching (or in fact not being allowed to watch) their loved ones drowning in their own fluids, which can be prevented (perhaps only temporarily) through border closures. Right now in NSW 24,000 people have active COVID, around 2% of them will die and many more will endure weeks or months of severe illness, because somebody couldn't stand not traveling. Dude, turn off the tv and stay the gently caress off the internet for a little while. It has completely hosed your perspective. Or go and seek some mental help, gently caress me.
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Sep 5, 2021 12:46
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Launchpad McQuack posted:Dude, turn off the tv and stay the gently caress off the internet for a little while. It has completely hosed your perspective. Or go and seek some mental help, gently caress me. Edit - I've obviously expressed myself badly. What I'm driving at is that someone not being able to get across the border to visit their dying mum is a neat story. The grinding despair of a million people with elderly parents living in a state that used to have zero transmission and now has 24,000 active cases isn't a neat story. But it's still real. And we (and our media) are bad at actually doing the calculus of human suffering, instead privileging events and narratives that catch our attention or imagination. The Artificial Kid fucked around with this message at 13:04 on Sep 5, 2021 |
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Sep 5, 2021 12:50
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Anecdotes aren't evidence but a friend of mine has moved back to Perth in the last 2 weeks from Sydney, so it's not an iron curtain, you just need approval. Though from her account it was a buerocratic pain in the arse.
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Sep 5, 2021 13:08
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The Artificial Kid posted:This is an argument that the media doesn't give nearly enough air to. I've repeatedly declined the possibility of moving interstate for study/work (i.e. not applying for interstate university courses, not applying for interstate jobs even though it would have increased my chances of career progression) because I didn't want to move away from my family. But all the people who put other things ahead of living near family now want the right to move around and infect other people's families who didn't separate themselves geographically. Yes. I put other things ahead of living near family, and I accept that in this situation that means I can't see them even semi-regularly (i.e. once a year or so) like I used to. There's also the fact that being able to cheaply fly around the place is a very, very recent human innovation! Moving to another state or another country used to mean accepting you'd basically never see your family again. My grandparents moved to Australia from Ireland in the 1950s and died in the 2000s/2010s. You know how often they saw their family back in Ireland for that period of their lives? Once, in the '70s. That was it. Otherwise it was just the long-distance-rate phone call once a month. WA shouldn't (and won't, and has no plans to) reasonably isolate itself from the outside world after vaccination plateau within and endemic COVID without. But it's completely reasonable to do so before it gets to that point. Particularly, as McGowan says, because it'll probably only be a few extra months.
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Sep 5, 2021 13:14
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freebooter posted:Yes. I put other things ahead of living near family, and I accept that in this situation that means I can't see them even semi-regularly (i.e. once a year or so) like I used to.
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Sep 5, 2021 13:25
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Pandemics wouldn’t be a thing if we all decided to live in self sufficient and isolated anarcho-primitivist compounds
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Sep 5, 2021 13:49
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Solemn Sloth posted:Pandemics wouldn’t be a thing if we all decided to live in self sufficient and isolated anarcho-primitivist compounds All I'm saying is that if everyone got super into WOW this poo poo would be done in like 2 months.
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Sep 5, 2021 14:07
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hooman posted:All I'm saying is that if everyone got super into WOW this poo poo would be done in like 2 months. I mean yeah sure, but I'm pretty sure just locking every single person in jail, would have a much less permanent and scaring effect on humanity.
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Sep 5, 2021 14:14
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Solemn Sloth posted:Pandemics wouldn’t be a thing if we all decided to live in self sufficient and isolated anarcho-primitivist compounds Unless we plan to open international borders immediately, zero COVID domestically is just as sensible today as it was at the start of the pandemic. "Equilibrium" levels of COVID are only worth bothering with at the point where we re-open to the rest of the world. Otherwise we are simply courting needless death and disruption, especially when multiple states are still enjoying zero COVID and rightly wanting to stay that way. The Artificial Kid fucked around with this message at 14:20 on Sep 5, 2021 |
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Sep 5, 2021 14:18
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dr_rat posted:I mean yeah sure, but I'm pretty sure just locking every single person in jail, would have a much less permanent and scaring effect on humanity. I got level 99 problems but a covid ain't one. EDIT: If this joke doesn't work don't tell me, I've never played WOW.
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Sep 5, 2021 14:26
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bell jar posted:What's preventing you from getting AZ? I don't know which version I'm getting, it doesn't say
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Sep 5, 2021 14:28
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The Artificial Kid posted:I know that's got to suck, and I'm sorry if I seemed heartless about that. I certainly don't think that it's painless or deserved. You seem already very cognizant of the point I was trying to make that got some backs up, that there is no escape from the need to juggle different forms of suffering in this pandemic. No, I was agreeing with you. It does suck- it sucks a lot! But I definitely agree a huge problem throughout this whole thing has been people demanding that governments come up with an option that doesn't suck, which simply doesn't exist. We've had it very good for a very long time - two or three generations - and the idea that we're in a really lovely period of history in which we have only least-bad options to choose from is one which a lot of people still struggle with, i.e: https://twitter.com/patstokes/status/1434108711044206598 The Artificial Kid posted:Unless we plan to open international borders immediately, zero COVID domestically is just as sensible today as it was at the start of the pandemic. "Equilibrium" levels of COVID are only worth bothering with at the point where we re-open to the rest of the world. Otherwise we are simply courting needless death and disruption, especially when multiple states are still enjoying zero COVID and rightly wanting to stay that way. This is (IMO self-evidently) true, but I don't think it's incompatible with the grim likelihood that Delta will eventually seep in no matter what and even snap lockdowns won't get rid of it, as Victoria and NZ seem to be currently proving. But if anything that's just more justification for extremely hard and strict border policies in the interim.
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Sep 5, 2021 15:05
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freebooter posted:There's also the fact that being able to cheaply fly around the place is a very, very recent human innovation! Moving to another state or another country used to mean accepting you'd basically never see your family again. The difference between state and country seems important here - I don't think zero covid states should open but I don't blame people from moving from say NSW to QLD who are totally blindsided by not being able to visit family regularly. I'm honestly not sure how often someone from WA would visit the eastern states in say 1980 though. I agree there is a blind spot with how regular international travel is an anomaly in human history and I can't muster that much sympathy for people complaining about having to wait to see their family on the other side of the world for that reason. Even if you ignore the billions of people around the world who are too poor to do this, most people in the developed world were mostly born in a time where long distance international travel twice a year wasn't possible even for the wealthy. It's not like the Spanish Flu where we've lost the cultural memory over generations - millennials should remember when a trip to Europe was a once in a decade family event.
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Sep 5, 2021 17:04
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dumbfucks like droll up there are pretty common, anecdotally. I know multiple people who have just refused vaccines because they're either YouTube University poisoned or (as one guy who works as AN ORDERLY AT A HOSPITAL WHICH HAS HAD A COVID WARD has told me) they "don't see the point" since they are young and fit. I also have a friend who keeps sending me memes and stories about people who are hospitalised by Delta who havn't been vaccinated, here and abroad. Then I ask him when he's getting it and the answer keeps changing from "I don't want AZ I'll wait for Pfizer" to "Why get Pfizer when I can wait for Moderna" ect. Which is arguably a worse position because it means you believe in vaccination but are putting it off because you want the "better'' product from a spurious spreadsheet you're not qualified to understand. I will say as Victorian who booked AZ as soon as it was available I feel pretty loving smug about getting the Pfizer shot just given to me no questions asked now that people are complaining they can't get Pfizer appointments. I would've taken whatever they gave me. Animal Friend fucked around with this message at 18:30 on Sep 5, 2021 |
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Sep 5, 2021 18:27
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Wait for moderna is some bullshit, but wait for Pfizer when your age cohort was specifically advised to wait for it makes sense.
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Sep 5, 2021 19:04
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Can’t believe I’m agreeing with James Patterson and Tim Wilson https://www.theage.com.au/politics/federal/breach-of-trust-police-using-qr-check-in-data-to-solve-crimes-20210903-p58om8.html Police should be banned from accessing covid check-in data under any circumstances, it should be inadmissible in any proceeding if it is somehow accessed, and anyone that attempts or aids inappropriate access to the data should face loving jail time.
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Sep 5, 2021 21:17
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I think it's a little rich to imply that we shouldn't feel sorry for people who can't cross borders right now. The argument that international travel has only been the norm for a short amount of time is pretty weak. For the past, what, 40-50 years, people have been able to travel relatively cheaply at any time. The only time this wasn't true was after 9/11 when travel everywhere shut down for a bit. We've never seen anything on this scale before so of course this hasn't factored into calculus re: whether someone should move states or not. This isn't an argument for opening borders necessarily (though I do think the *outward* international travel ban is an insane human rights violation, not the *inward* ban), just to say that, "well, cheap travel hasn't been around that long anyway!" is a bit rich. I could turn this around and say, "well, we haven't had vaccines that long anyway, just have to live with it" as a reason to open schools right now.
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Sep 5, 2021 21:41
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The loving gall to include the assistance statistic in the article about how they gave an abuser a discharge to muddy the waters.
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Sep 5, 2021 22:19
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The Artificial Kid posted:No, what's staggeringly stupid is focusing solely on the pain of separated families and ignoring the pain of people watching (or in fact not being allowed to watch) their loved ones drowning in their own fluids, which can be prevented (perhaps only temporarily) through border closures. Right now in NSW 24,000 people have active COVID, around 2% of them will die and many more will endure weeks or months of severe illness, because somebody couldn't stand not traveling. Our current outbreak started because a limo driver wasn't taking appropriate precautions while transporting an international freight crew, so it wasn't because people couldn't stand not travelling at a personal level. International freight has been hugely impacted by covid, but supply chains are dependent on it so it's going to continue irrespective of the risks.
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Sep 5, 2021 22:29
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Breetai posted:The loving gall to include the assistance statistic in the article about how they gave an abuser a discharge to muddy the waters. "would have", if they weren't busy perpetuating them
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Sep 5, 2021 22:50
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alf_pogs posted:"would have", if they weren't busy perpetuating them I mean "dealing with" doesn't necessarily mean investigating.
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Sep 5, 2021 23:06
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