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StrangeThing posted:I think it's a little rich to imply that we shouldn't feel sorry for people who can't cross borders right now. The argument that international travel has only been the norm for a short amount of time is pretty weak. For the past, what, 40-50 years, people have been able to travel relatively cheaply at any time. The only time this wasn't true was after 9/11 when travel everywhere shut down for a bit. We've never seen anything on this scale before so of course this hasn't factored into calculus re: whether someone should move states or not. My supply of sympathy is getting hit pretty hard by all the people literally loving dying right now. I don't really have much to spare on people whose main complaint from the global pandemic is not getting to visit granny. It's like a loving skit where someone's being interviewed on the scene of a multi-fatality car pileup to complain about how the tragic event caused them to stop suddenly and break a nail.
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Sep 5, 2021 23:23
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I mean I’m sure some people want to just visit friends but there are plenty of couples who have been separated, people who have been stopped from visiting dying relatives. I wouldn’t minimize the type of harm and grief that causes.
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Sep 5, 2021 23:34
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I think at the very least kids being separated from parents for weeks and months is pretty loving unacceptable, and whatever hoops the relevant state governments need to jump through to reunite them needs to be a priority
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Sep 5, 2021 23:38
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StrangeThing posted:I mean I’m sure some people want to just visit friends but there are plenty of couples who have been separated, people who have been stopped from visiting dying relatives. I wouldn’t minimize the type of harm and grief that causes. Speaking as someone whose best friend (who I considered chosen family) died in Melbourne just after an earlier lockdown came down: it was awful beyond measure not being able to visit her in hospital and having to attend her funeral in a loving zoom call, but given the option to travel I would have unequivocally said "gently caress off" because I'm not a shithead plague rat and I had no intention of having to bury my mother, or partner, or anyone else because of a selfish desire to put everyone at risk by traveling during a pandemic.
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Sep 5, 2021 23:48
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it's a tough and lovely situation all round. i don't blame people for running out of patience at all, given the last two years of nonstop federal political spin and bullshit, but obviously there are situations where border closures are loving with people's lives in a major way. on a personal note, my grandad's very likely going to die of dementia within the next two weeks and only his very immediate family have a chance of saying goodbye beforehand, let alone attending the funeral. this fortunately includes me because i'm in SA with him, and i still think a hard border is the way to go - but there's absolutely a lot of sympathy for my extended family in NSW and VIC who won't get that chance. not fishing for sympathy, just that i can totally appreciate the hardships the border closures have put on relationships. Breetai posted:Speaking as someone whose best friend (who I considered chosen family) died in Melbourne just after an earlier lockdown came down: it was awful beyond measure not being able to visit her in hospital and having to attend her funeral in a loving zoom call, but given the option to travel I would have unequivocally said "gently caress off" because I'm not a shithead plague rat and I had no intention of having to bury my mother, or partner, or anyone else because of a selfish desire to put everyone at risk by traveling during a pandemic. that sucks, really sorry for your loss.
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Sep 5, 2021 23:48
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alf_pogs posted:
Thanks. We knew it was coming as she had metastatic breast cancer for about 6 years, but we at least got to spend time with her two weeks prior on her 36th birthday, and probably gave her the last really good time of her life. Which is all kinds of hosed up bittersweet.
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Sep 6, 2021 00:37
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Breetai posted:Speaking as someone whose best friend (who I considered chosen family) died in Melbourne just after an earlier lockdown came down: it was awful beyond measure not being able to visit her in hospital and having to attend her funeral in a loving zoom call, but given the option to travel I would have unequivocally said "gently caress off" because I'm not a shithead plague rat and I had no intention of having to bury my mother, or partner, or anyone else because of a selfish desire to put everyone at risk by traveling during a pandemic. You’re a good person for seeing it that way. The problem is never people who feel sad about losing a friend or missing the chance to speak with a dying relative, it’s the people who can’t see past that individual pain and balance it against the great mass of human feeling outside themselves. And even then with a virus it’s understandable that it’s hard for them to make that calculation, because they never feel dangerous within themselves, they need to be shown that they might be fine but that for every 100/1,000/10,000 travellers indistinguishable from them an outbreak affecting millions of people will happen.
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Sep 6, 2021 00:38
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Breetai posted:Speaking as someone whose best friend (who I considered chosen family) died in Melbourne just after an earlier lockdown came down: it was awful beyond measure not being able to visit her in hospital and having to attend her funeral in a loving zoom call, but given the option to travel I would have unequivocally said "gently caress off" because I'm not a shithead plague rat and I had no intention of having to bury my mother, or partner, or anyone else because of a selfish desire to put everyone at risk by traveling during a pandemic. I'm sorry for your loss. But I would always have sympathy for you during that situation. That's the point, really - that we should have sympathy for people cut off by borders, not to just dismiss it as people complaining they can't see grandma. Except for children cut off from parents. That poo poo is deplorable and heads should roll.
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Sep 6, 2021 00:45
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The Reff in some Melbourne suburbs is 4. I know people are tired of lockdowns but this poo poo is ridiculous.
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Sep 6, 2021 00:54
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gay picnic defence posted:The Reff in some Melbourne suburbs is 4. I know people are tired of lockdowns but this poo poo is ridiculous. Well, good news: Melbourne has no plans to relax lockdown rules yet?
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Sep 6, 2021 00:58
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StrangeThing posted:I'm sorry for your loss. I have sympathy from a personal level. I have no sympathy from a policy level. Except for the kids cut off from parents. Seems like that would be a small enough number we could arrange something. Feels weird to say this given the argument I'm making, but sorry about that Breetai.
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Sep 6, 2021 01:13
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StrangeThing posted:Well, good news: Melbourne has no plans to relax lockdown rules yet? I’m more concerned about when they’re planning on enforcing the lockdown rules.
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Sep 6, 2021 01:14
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 Sadly it's just the Vic Libs at it again.
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Sep 6, 2021 01:22
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Lolie posted:Our current outbreak started because a limo driver wasn't taking appropriate precautions while transporting an international freight crew, so it wasn't because people couldn't stand not travelling at a personal level. International freight has been hugely impacted by covid, but supply chains are dependent on it so it's going to continue irrespective of the risks. Don't forget that the initial stages of the outbreak were poorly handled because the NSW Premier had gone all in on "No more lockdowns".
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Sep 6, 2021 01:24
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gay picnic defence posted:I’m more concerned about when they’re planning on enforcing the lockdown rules. What should be happening right now that isn’t happening?
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Sep 6, 2021 01:24
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hooman posted:Anecdotes aren't evidence but a friend of mine has moved back to Perth in the last 2 weeks from Sydney, so it's not an iron curtain, you just need approval. Though from her account it was a buerocratic pain in the arse. Are the magic words to say they're an au pair? The Artificial Kid posted:No, what's staggeringly stupid is focusing solely on the pain of separated families and ignoring the pain of people watching (or in fact not being allowed to watch) their loved ones drowning in their own fluids, which can be prevented (perhaps only temporarily) through border closures. Right now in NSW 24,000 people have active COVID, around 2% of them will die and many more will endure weeks or months of severe illness, because somebody couldn't stand not traveling. The Artificial Kid posted:I'm not upset about it, I was just responding in kind. All over the world untold suffering has arisen from people's need to travel freely all over the world. This is yet another example of viruses having evolved to exploit our contact with one another, but that doesn't change the fact that that is why we have a pandemic going on. If we had proper quarantine facilities it would mitigate it more, but the ultimate solution is for everyone temporarily to work out where they actually want to be in the world and stay there. The Artificial Kid posted:I know that's got to suck, and I'm sorry if I seemed heartless about that. I certainly don't think that it's painless or deserved. You seem already very cognizant of the point I was trying to make that got some backs up, that there is no escape from the need to juggle different forms of suffering in this pandemic. You weren't responding in kind, you completely hosed your point and then went off. After fellating yourself for nobly clinging to your family pre-pandemic, being a oval office people who moved away pre-pandemic, you beat your chest about what worries a million people, presumably you included, are now facing like I loving don't understand and aren't facing them myself. My back wasn't up before, it is now you loving idiot.
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Sep 6, 2021 01:28
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Capt.Whorebags posted:Don't forget that the initial stages of the outbreak were poorly handled because the NSW Premier had gone all in on "No more lockdowns". Man it was so infuriating listening to people talking about how the government just wanted us to be locked down, like Gladys didn't drag her feet as hard as she could. There's claw marks on the pavement where she was dragged kicking and screaming into locking down at all and people were still like "gladys just wan lockdown sheeple" 
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Sep 6, 2021 01:29
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Solemn Sloth posted:Can’t believe I’m agreeing with James Patterson and Tim Wilson Forgot to quote this while I was in the angry dome but what a cursed time to be alive.
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Sep 6, 2021 01:35
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StrangeThing posted:I think it's a little rich to imply that we shouldn't feel sorry for people who can't cross borders right now. The argument that international travel has only been the norm for a short amount of time is pretty weak. For the past, what, 40-50 years, people have been able to travel relatively cheaply at any time. The only time this wasn't true was after 9/11 when travel everywhere shut down for a bit. We've never seen anything on this scale before so of course this hasn't factored into calculus re: whether someone should move states or not. I'm not unsympathetic to this argument, though my general opinion is that just because something has been that way for a while doesn't mean a global catastrophe can't swing the needle back in the other direction for a while. But I think people's opinion on how commonplace interstate and international travel was/is can definitely come down to one's own experience and privilege. Like, what you said there - the idea that people could travel relatively cheaply at any time in the 1980s and 1990s - is most definitely not the experience of my family! My dad's brother lives in Sydney and during the 1990s/2000s, having his family come over to Perth, or having some of us go over to visit, was a once every 4-5 years thing. (Though granted, this may be a fairly unique Perth thing - it wouldn't be the same if we were split between Sydney and Brisbane.) ModernMajorGeneral posted:It's not like the Spanish Flu where we've lost the cultural memory over generations - millennials should remember when a trip to Europe was a once in a decade family event. Even once in a decade seems a lot to me! I went with my entire family to Ireland in 2019 to scatter my grandparents' ashes and for many in the family it was the first time they'd ever been to Europe. It was the third time I'd ever been but the first was shoestring-budget backpacking, the second was when I lived in the UK for a year. When I lived in the UK a lot of my coworkers asked if I was going home for Christmas. I get that Brits probably don't grasp the cost and distance involved, but that's a $2,000 return flight. It was laughably out of the question.
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Sep 6, 2021 01:40
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StrangeThing posted:What should be happening right now that isn’t happening? A bunch of people in LGAs with high rates of covid transmission copping the long dick of the law would be nice.
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Sep 6, 2021 01:51
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gay picnic defence posted:The Reff in some Melbourne suburbs is 4. I know people are tired of lockdowns but this poo poo is ridiculous. Wife is a healthcare worker. One family has someone in hospital, two of their family members have already died, the family still believe COVID is a hoax/conspiracy. All members of the family at home are covid positive. Extended family still mingling through peoples homes. Members of the family (covid positive) attempted to attend the hospital to see the hospitalised family member, and assaulted security guards including pulling the guards mask down and coughing in their face when denied entry. People are hosed, we actually do need to weld some people into their houses.
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Sep 6, 2021 01:55
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gay picnic defence posted:A bunch of people in LGAs with high rates of covid transmission copping the long dick of the law would be nice. Could you be more specific?
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Sep 6, 2021 02:00
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Solemn Sloth posted:
That's what section 62 is for. Every state has similar provisions. quote:(4) A public health order may authorise the person subject to the order-- http://classic.austlii.edu.au/au/legis/nsw/consol_act/pha2010126/s62.html
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Sep 6, 2021 02:02
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gay picnic defence posted:A bunch of people in LGAs with high rates of covid transmission copping the long dick of the law would be nice. so you'd like to see the cops attacking the migrant communities in south west and west sydney where the spread is the worst? just want to be clear on what you're asking for here.
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Sep 6, 2021 02:12
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Solemn Sloth posted:People are hosed, we actually do need to weld some people into their houses. Just to be clear, no, we should never do this. Lolie posted:That's what section 62 is for. Every state has similar provisions. Uh...no. We should not weld people into their homes. lol are we seriously discussing this?
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Sep 6, 2021 02:15
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StrangeThing posted:Just to be clear, no, we should never do this. If they have repeatedly shown that they will happily put other peoples lives in danger by willfully spreading the virus, what else do you suggest?
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Sep 6, 2021 02:17
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Laserface posted:so you'd like to see the cops attacking the migrant communities in south west and west sydney where the spread is the worst? If by attacking you mean strictly enforcing the public health orders then yes. If they want to be treated like adults they can start acting like them and follow the loving rules. People are going to die because these arseholes have decided it’s all too hard and they can’t be bothered doing their bit to stop the pandemic.
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Sep 6, 2021 02:19
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NPR Journalizard posted:If they have repeatedly shown that they will happily put other peoples lives in danger by willfully spreading the virus, what else do you suggest? We already have policing measures to deal with this. There are a million things we can do - jail time, etc. We don't need to literally weld people into a house, jesus. gay picnic defence posted:If by attacking you mean strictly enforcing the public health orders then yes. If they want to be treated like adults they can start acting like them and follow the loving rules. People are going to die because these arseholes have decided it’s all too hard and they can’t be bothered doing their bit to stop the pandemic. I don't disagree, but you haven't exactly specified what you want to happen. What enforcement measures do you want to see increased? Do you want an increased police presence in these areas?
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Sep 6, 2021 02:20
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Regarding travel chat, I don't know about everyone else, the as soon as those international boarders are open iam getting my rear end outta here as soon as possible. My problem with Australia is it is full of Australian. Not sorry for wanting a holiday, I do and see some hosed up poo poo whilst on duty. Pretty confident my rear end will be rolling around the Jordaan in Amsterdam with a head full of amenisa haze loving life at some point next year and it will be loving great.
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Sep 6, 2021 02:20
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Monitored house arrest should 100% be on the table for people who have demonstrated zero intent to comply with public health orders
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Sep 6, 2021 02:21
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StrangeThing posted:We already have policing measures to deal with this. Whatever works. I’m sure the health department and the cops have a better idea than I do. If it’s going to take uniformed soldiers on the streets, spot checks of anyone seen outside and helicopters flying low overhead at night then so be it.
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Sep 6, 2021 02:23
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Have choppers circling overhead shooting anyone without a mask on and if it turns out they had a medical exemption send the family a sorry card imo
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Sep 6, 2021 02:24
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gay picnic defence posted:Whatever works. I’m sure the health department and the cops have a better idea than I do. If it’s going to take uniformed soldiers on the streets, spot checks of anyone seen outside and helicopters flying low overhead at night then so be it. I mean, this still ignores the question re: how much of the transmission is due to people breaching health orders and how much of it is due to essential workers spreading the virus to their households. I don't think we know that breakdown, do we? Solemn Sloth posted:Have choppers circling overhead shooting anyone without a mask on and if it turns out they had a medical exemption send the family a sorry card imo Are you being serious?
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Sep 6, 2021 02:28
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Solemn Sloth posted:Have choppers circling overhead shooting anyone without a mask on and if it turns out they had a medical exemption send the family a sorry card imo Makes sense. If people aren’t scared enough of the virus to stay the gently caress at home they need to be made scared of something else. Random extrajudicial killings might just do the trick.
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Sep 6, 2021 02:30
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Certainly this is not Gospel but the vast majority of cases here in ACT seem to stem from essential businesses; https://www.covid19.act.gov.au/act-status-and-response/act-covid-19-exposure-locations Coles, Woolworths, various chemists, etc. You can't stop this unless you move to full delivery only when in lockdown. Anecdotally but when I was still going to Woolworths (as of last week we don't leave the house except for exercise, all food we order online) everyone was complying with social distancing, masks, and getting in and out as fast as possible.
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Sep 6, 2021 02:31
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StrangeThing posted:Are you being serious? Of course not. He'd never say sorry.
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Sep 6, 2021 02:32
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I think looking at the cost of international, or even interstate travel for some people in Australia over the last decade, it's sort of rich to say travelling far from home has become common place in the last 50 years. And I do mean rich, I think the vast majority of people don't travel still. I went to the Eastern states once, someone else paid for it, it was loving expensive. Can someone tell me why Clive Palmer is so desperate to get into WA?
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Sep 6, 2021 02:33
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Konomex posted:I think looking at the cost of international, or even interstate travel for some people in Australia over the last decade, it's sort of rich to say travelling far from home has become common place in the last 50 years. And I do mean rich, I think the vast majority of people don't travel still. In 2019 I tool a holiday, it was literally cheaper to fly to Amsterdam than it was to Sydney. So I went to Rotterdam to watch a soccer match. Travel was cheap as gently caress until the start of the pandemic. It will be cheap as gently caress again. What the gently caress are you idiots on about?
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Sep 6, 2021 02:36
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gay picnic defence posted:Makes sense. If people aren’t scared enough of the virus to stay the gently caress at home they need to be made scared of something else. Random extrajudicial killings might just do the trick. This is hosed up. Konomex posted:I think looking at the cost of international, or even interstate travel for some people in Australia over the last decade, it's sort of rich to say travelling far from home has become common place in the last 50 years. And I do mean rich, I think the vast majority of people don't travel still. More than ten million Australians went overseas in 2017. https://www.abc.net.au/news/2018-01-19/more-aussies-pull-out-their-passports-with-nz-trips-on-the-rise/9344692 A few years ago it was possible to get a flight to LA for like, $850. Travel is loving cheap man.
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Sep 6, 2021 02:36
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Konomex posted:Can someone tell me why Clive Palmer is so desperate to get into WA? rich spoilt dipshit got told he couldn't do something
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Sep 6, 2021 02:38
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