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galagazombie posted:Lena Headey is the one to blame for Cersei being a bad character in the show. She was so good in the role and so god drat charismatic both in the show and real life, the character became a symbol in pop culture for being a #girlboss. The whole reveal that Cersei is a sociopathic idiot narcissist who only succeeded because her lack of a conscience made it easy for her to sabotage allies, but incompetent at actually ruling or winning, would not have gone over well with a huge segment of the viewership. It's the same reason they had to start removing all the subplots about how she doesn't care about being faithful to Jaime in the slightest. Or where in the early seasons the fact she has incest babies with her brother is treated as horrifying and a sign of her being unhinged, but then in the back half they suddenly decide that no, incest is good and Cersei is brave and noble for doing it. And all of a sudden Jaime and Cersei's relationship is treated as romantic star-crossed lovers instead of some hosed up poo poo Jaime needs to get over. this makes so much sense until I remember that Emilia Clarke was also on the show   lol:
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Sep 8, 2021 00:00
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Qwertycoatl posted:If that's true, how come they made Dany go crazy? She had a bigger fan following than Cersei Because D&D were besotted by Lena Headey as Cersei, the same reason they wrote Ellaria Sand's character how they did (they wanted her to be like Indira Varna's character from Rome).
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Sep 8, 2021 08:34
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TheKirbs posted:the same reason they wrote Ellaria Sand's character how they did (they wanted her to be like Indira Varna's character from Rome) But she's not remotely?
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Sep 8, 2021 09:36
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Toxic Fart Syndrome posted:this makes so much sense until I remember that Emilia Clarke was also on the show Emilia Clarke was written as a "hero" throughout the show though. So the character could pick up the slack for the actress in the "become a #girlboss" department. It's kind of the reverse of Cersei, where Lena perhaps took too much slack for the character to the degree D&D started writing her different.
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Sep 8, 2021 09:45
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Bronn's real crime was stealing the show from my boiz Willas and Garlan. House Tyrell was second only to Martell in being done dirty. Wtf is up with loving Bronn getting Highgarden?
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Sep 12, 2021 13:41
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Edgar Allen Ho posted:Wtf is up with loving Bronn getting Highgarden? It's probably a commentary on the political dynamics of post-revolutionary Russia. After the civil war many people from marginalized parts of society were put into positions of power, even when they were completely unqualified and unsuited for these roles. Inbred, unsuited and unqualified stooges of the Tsar regime were replaced with unsuited and unqualified cutthroats. Bram is Lenin. Drogon is a metaphor for the revolutionary spirit. Oh ... wait ... no. I have the writers' notes here and it actually just says "funny gangster man go brrrrr, get big stone house to life in, LOL"
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Sep 12, 2021 14:19
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Edgar Allen Ho posted:Bronn's real crime was stealing the show from my boiz Willas and Garlan. D&D kinda forgot the lower houses existed is what happened
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Sep 12, 2021 16:15
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Yes, it's like a lava lamp.
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In D&D's GOT the major houses only have a single family (which makes no sense as that single family always has multiple children) and lower houses don't exist at all. Their world is just so small, it only has like 30 people living in it total. Those 30 people do everything important ever. They can travel anywhere in hours, and have no concern for things like supplies. Armies are like a magic spell you cast, not real people. They appear, attack, die, disappear, and then can appear again later when needed. But then when you need to do a thing its up to 5 brave guys because remember there's only 30 people in the whole world, the armies don't exist. "Twenty goodmen" is the name of an epic level army spell.
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Sep 12, 2021 17:01
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Pattonesque posted:I mean if you're gonna make Bronn something, make him Master of War or give him the City Watch again and bump it up to a Small Council position. You know, poo poo he'd be really good at There was even the scene when Tyrion was planning the siege defense and Bronn, who had survived sieges, gave him useful counsel. He also advised Jaime's army in siege and counter-siege operations. GoT did really become a popularity contest by season 6. One thing that bugged me is that Dany left Daario in Meereen. She was going to go on a conquest in Westeros and she left behind one of her only seasoned commanders, a former mercenary, to rule a ravaged city that she wouldn't even mention starting at the moment she left. Meanwhile, she apparently needed to bring Missandei, a royal advisor who could speak several Essos languages and knew the societies of the continent inside and out to Westeros so they could talk about boys. I guess you could chalk this up as one of Tyrion's many failings, where despite failing Dany again and again, other characters still lauded his "great mind" to the end.
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Sep 13, 2021 03:14
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I’d like to read about Daario’s epic mercenary kingdom where with the slave trade gone he has to turn to military conquests to keep the treasury filled and creates a big empire that turns Danny as some quasi mythical messiah figure to unite the populace.
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Sep 13, 2021 04:34
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galagazombie posted:I’d like to read about Daario’s epic mercenary kingdom where with the slave trade gone he has to turn to military conquests to keep the treasury filled and creates a big empire that turns Danny as some quasi mythical messiah figure to unite the populace. My preferred take on it is that Daario turns Slavers Bay and its cities into the progressive egalitarian utopia that Dany merely talked about creating but couldn't because she was incompetent and insane. So he's revered as a founding father of an empire and Dany is aptheosized into a god that barely resembles who she actually was. Her burning down King's Landing is part of the myth, but it's okay because that King's Landing loving deserved it.
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Sep 13, 2021 04:51
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Personally I think the King's Landing peasants didn't deserve horrible death. Also, my Daario opinions differ on if we're talking generic Aragorn Daario or blue hair gold beard Daario.
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Sep 13, 2021 11:45
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The one with the tongue, obviously.
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Sep 13, 2021 12:10
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If Daario came to Westeros he was 100% dying in the beyond the wall team up adventure for a zombie.
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Sep 13, 2021 13:27
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I wouldn't imagine Daario really gave a poo poo about slavery and always figured that, once scorned, he'd just betray Danaerys But nope, there was no object permanence and be ceased to exist.
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Sep 13, 2021 13:32
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Daario staying to the end would have been fun, just to seem him rag on Jon.
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Sep 13, 2021 16:48
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Slavers Bay reverted to factory settings 2 seconds after Dany left.
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Sep 13, 2021 17:24
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Captain Splendid posted:I wouldn't imagine Daario really gave a poo poo about slavery and always figured that, once scorned, he'd just betray Danaerys Books, maybe. I don't know what he was like there outside of the truly insane hair and beard. But TBF to the show characterization, though he was a Lothario type who betrayed his commanders for sex, he also had that whole ode to consent where he refused to gently caress slaves or prostitutes because he only wanted women with the agency to choose him. And he was a slave as a child...I feel like those things point to an anti-slavery stance, generally speaking. Regardless of how resentful he might've become over Dany, he probably still hated the Wise Masters far more.
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Sep 13, 2021 22:32
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Crespolini posted:Slavers Bay reverted to factory settings 2 seconds after Dany left. It was an Afghanistan metaphor all along.
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Sep 13, 2021 23:28
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Daario's entire power base is the former Slaves (who seem to make up at least half or more of the population) and their worship of Dany. Taking an anti-slavery stance is basically the only way for him to keep the old masters from putting his head on a pike. In fact his best move is probably to go full reign-of-terror on the the old Slaver class, which honestly would have made Dany's rule infinitely easier and more successful had she tried that instead of continually bending over backwards to please them. For all the brutality of the single time when she crucified a few guys, she basically left the slaver class in power by giving them amnesty every time she took a city and letting them keep all their money. And the Slavers entire military force in both the books and show were mercenaries, and mercenaries won't fight for people who won't pay them (because they're dead, and any who flee have had all their wealth confiscated).
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Sep 14, 2021 08:18
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galagazombie posted:Daario's entire power base is the former Slaves (who seem to make up at least half or more of the population) and their worship of Dany. Taking an anti-slavery stance is basically the only way for him to keep the old masters from putting his head on a pike. In fact his best move is probably to go full reign-of-terror on the the old Slaver class, which honestly would have made Dany's rule infinitely easier and more successful had she tried that instead of continually bending over backwards to please them. For all the brutality of the single time when she crucified a few guys, she basically left the slaver class in power by giving them amnesty every time she took a city and letting them keep all their money. And the Slavers entire military force in both the books and show were mercenaries, and mercenaries won't fight for people who won't pay them (because they're dead, and any who flee have had all their wealth confiscated). I like how she eventually started feeding a random master to her dragon every tuesday , and never imagining that maybe the other ones might start thinking they have literally nothing to lose by joining the harpies. and btw the slaves also hate you now because you execute them for killing their former masters. like either of those things would be the dumbest way to go, but combining them is just *mwha* perfect.
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Sep 14, 2021 18:22
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Dany burned a woman to death for getting revenge after her village was destroyed and everyone was raped and killed by her husband.
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Sep 14, 2021 19:45
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bobjr posted:Dany burned a woman to death for getting revenge after her village was destroyed and everyone was raped and killed by her husband. #girlboss
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Sep 14, 2021 21:16
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bobjr posted:Dany burned a woman to death for getting revenge after her village was destroyed and everyone was raped and killed by her husband. Girls get it done.
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Sep 15, 2021 06:42
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bobjr posted:Dany burned a woman to death for getting revenge after her village was destroyed and everyone was raped and killed by her husband. Dany has massive main character syndrome. As in, she believes she's the main character and nobody else matters worth a drat. So nothing she ever does could be bad because even the bad things she takes part in she does for (in her head) good reasons. And any slight against her must be met with maximum punishment because how loving dare someone do something bad against her, the obvious Good Guy of the story that is her life. I don't think any other character ever calls her out on any of her poo poo. Except Mirri Maz Duur.
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Sep 15, 2021 07:51
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I feel like there's some pretty basic failures of textual comprehension here. Dany doesn't burn Mirri for getting revenge for the rape and pillaging. If anything she internalizes that point Mirri was making by talking about Drogo's crimes against her people and village, because at the same time she's burning Mirri she's also saying that any warriors who stay with her horde will be forbidden from rape and have to take wives instead and a bunch of other stuff meant to reform her methods exactly along the lines of Mirri's criticisms. The realization that the road to the throne she'd started by asking Drogo to give it to her through a bloody conquest wasn't just going to hurt her enemies in Westeros but a ton of innocent people was formative in her becoming The Breaker Of Chains and whatnot. She burns Mirri because Mirri didn't just kill her husband and destroy her army for the crimes they actually did, she killed Dany's unborn baby and magically destroyed her reproductive capabilities to prevent the fulfillment of a prophecy. If Mirri deserves revenge for what Drogo did, no way does Dany not deserve revenge equally.
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Sep 15, 2021 08:54
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Sanguinia posted:I feel like there's some pretty basic failures of textual comprehension here. Dany doesn't burn Mirri for getting revenge for the rape and pillaging. If anything she internalizes that point Mirri was making by talking about Drogo's crimes against her people and village, because at the same time she's burning Mirri she's also saying that any warriors who stay with her horde will be forbidden from rape and have to take wives instead and a bunch of other stuff meant to reform her methods exactly along the lines of Mirri's criticisms. The realization that the road to the throne she'd started by asking Drogo to give it to her through a bloody conquest wasn't just going to hurt her enemies in Westeros but a ton of innocent people was formative in her becoming The Breaker Of Chains and whatnot. Shades of the "thanks for killing Caligula, but to maintain legitimacy we must execute you" move from I, Claudius.
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Sep 15, 2021 11:06
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Dany's going crazy makes sense, but Mirri was like the only indication. Everyone else had shades of evil, like crucifying all those dudes, or burning the Khals. But they deserved it. Maybe ideally they should have been imprisoned and potentially rehabilitated but I'm not sad for them. It should have been a progression into crueler and less justified burninatings. But nope. Mirri and Dickon are the only people you can be even slightly sympathetic towards. I guess destroying people's whole culture is bad but the slavers and the Khals were all Skeletor. I ain't sad. And even the Dothraki themselves saw her do the Khals and thought "drat this rules!"
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Sep 15, 2021 13:22
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She should've starved outside the gates of Qarth and saved us a lot of bad TV but I guess that's on George.
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Sep 15, 2021 14:23
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Edgar Allen Ho posted:It should have been a progression into crueler and less justified burninatings. But nope. Mirri and Dickon are the only people you can be even slightly sympathetic towards. I guess destroying people's whole culture is bad but the slavers and the Khals were all Skeletor. I ain't sad. And even the Dothraki themselves saw her do the Khals and thought "drat this rules!" I mean, when Tyrion gets up on his Author's Pundit he's very explicit in saying that those seemingly justified actions against "evil men," are meant to be seen by us as a sign that Dany was getting worse all along and we were cheering her on because he agreed with her political positions. The more she wins the more she thinks she's always good and always right, etc. The problem with that is it betrays D&D's own dumb political biases more than it reveals those of their audience because its normal for human being to be against slavery and misogyny and other horrible societal evils, so its not weird to see them get overthrown by delicious cathartic fantasy destruction and be happy about it.
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Sep 15, 2021 16:24
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I think the crucifixions and burninatings are supposed to be seen as gratuitously cruel, but this is also a series where the heroes have also burned enemies alive (Tyrion's wildfire gambit), and where the literal first thing we see is most honorable man in Westeros, Ned Stark, decapitating a man for minor crimes because its how things work around here.
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Sep 15, 2021 16:34
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The biggest problem I had with Danny was that she was the closest the show got to a Mary Sue back when the show had us believe that major characters were just as vulnerable as the little guys. Everybody who meets her, except for those she has to triumph over, are usually immediately won over to her side because she is just so cool and awesome and always right. She is just given the dragons, given Drogo's horde, given the Unsullied, given another group of horse dudes, and finally given the fleet needed to carry her troops to Westeros. I think the hardest she had to work was when she killed the old owner of the Unsullied in front of everyone and they all just shrugged their shoulders, or when she just tipped over some torches and got the horse army for free.
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Sep 15, 2021 17:36
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Saying that Dany was just "given," the dragons kind of minimizes all the emotional trauma involved in losing her husband and unborn child and being afflicted with a blood curse that ruined her reproductive organs IMO. Also "Drogo's Horde," was like 50 people when she was "given," it, most of them abandoned her before she went into the fire and came out a messiah. Also she does an awful lot of suffering crossing that desert before she finds Qarth, and the only reason she gets help "given," to her there is part of an elaborate scheme to use her which she then has to turn on its head. If you want to argue that Dany getting the Unsullied Army was too easy, ok I guess, but that's a pretty clear case of her using her intelligence and guile to exploit an idiot who underestimates her because she's a woman. I don't think its really fair to call that Mary Sue behavior. Hand-wavey since there's almost no fallout from getting this slave army and it all integrates perfectly into her cause, sure, but not Mary Sue-ish. Similarly she wins the battle of Slavers Bay pretty easily but its not like getting to that point didn't require a lot of effort and toil and sacrifice and suffering on her part. The win was only so easy because it was there to illustrate what the dragons could actually accomplish now that all three were full grown, and getting to that point certainly was not a gimmie for Dany either, it was the culmination of her entire story to that point. Her getting all the Hordes of the Great Khals to follow her just by burning their leaders and being fireproof was about the closest thing to legit Mary Sue behavior, and the writing was off the rails for EVERYONE at that point.
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Sep 15, 2021 20:21
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Sanguinia posted:I feel like there's some pretty basic failures of textual comprehension here. Dany doesn't burn Mirri for getting revenge for the rape and pillaging. If anything she internalizes that point Mirri was making by talking about Drogo's crimes against her people and village, because at the same time she's burning Mirri she's also saying that any warriors who stay with her horde will be forbidden from rape and have to take wives instead and a bunch of other stuff meant to reform her methods exactly along the lines of Mirri's criticisms. The realization that the road to the throne she'd started by asking Drogo to give it to her through a bloody conquest wasn't just going to hurt her enemies in Westeros but a ton of innocent people was formative in her becoming The Breaker Of Chains and whatnot. ..n..no? If someone performs an unjustified killing, then you can take revenge on them. That revenge itself is a justified killing (by this way of thinking) and so does not provoke further revenge. The idea "you killed my husband (who murdered and sanctioned rape against your family) so you wronged me and I have a right to take that out on you" is inherently hypocritical. I mean you're right, Dany did learn from Mirri and also killed her, but I don't think you can call that any kind of consistent. Its selfish. She's doing things that benefit herself. Mirri did make her aware of something, but ultimately Dany gonna take care of Dany and that takes priority over "equality" or whatever, which she doesn't reaaaaally care about. Sanguinia posted:Saying that Dany was just "given," the dragons kind of minimizes all the emotional trauma involved in losing her husband and unborn child and being afflicted with a blood curse that ruined her reproductive organs IMO. But she could have had the dragons without her husband dying, that's just how things played out. Correlation does not imply causation. Dany definitely suffered, but I don't think you can say she only got the dragons because of it. Zaphod42 fucked around with this message at 21:00 on Sep 15, 2021 |
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Sep 15, 2021 20:57
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I think you're missing Sanguinia's point. Killing Drogo and educating Danaerys would be one thing. Cursing her womb and causing her to lose her baby is another.
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Sep 15, 2021 21:02
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Zaphod42 posted:But she could have had the dragons without her husband dying, that's just how things played out. Correlation does not imply causation. Dany definitely suffered, but I don't think you can say she only got the dragons because of it. It's heavily implied to be blood magic where Mirri was the sacrifice. It's also implied but never stated directly that those eggs are very old eggs stolen from the Targaryens that had never hatched in hundreds of years so something miraculous was definitely involved.
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Sep 15, 2021 22:05
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Zaphod42 posted:..n..no? If someone performs an unjustified killing, then you can take revenge on them. That revenge itself is a justified killing (by this way of thinking) and so does not provoke further revenge. The Bee posted:I think you're missing Sanguinia's point. Killing Drogo and educating Danaerys would be one thing. Cursing her womb and causing her to lose her baby is another. Ironic that it was in a response to a post where I claimed failure of text comprehension, isn't it? "How could you say Mirri killing Drogo as revenge then justifies further revenge?!" "...I didn't?"
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Sep 16, 2021 03:05
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TOOT BOOT posted:It's heavily implied to be blood magic where Mirri was the sacrifice. It's also implied but never stated directly that those eggs are very old eggs stolen from the Targaryens that had never hatched in hundreds of years so something miraculous was definitely involved. Cough cough the Prince That Was Promised shall wake dragons from stone. And have the song of Ice and Fire.
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Sep 16, 2021 04:45
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Funny thing in the books: Mirri's medical and magical advice is completely ignored. She makes a thing for Drogo's wound and tells him not to drink, and he throws that right off and chugs away every night. She then says that bad poo poo is going down in the tent, do not do not do not go in and the gang carry Dany in there the moment she's incapacitated. On a second read you get the impression she was sincerely trying to gain some favor but was cut off at the knees and just made the dragons pop as a last ditch effort towards her goals. She trained under the Mage Maester from the end of book 4, so that's something was meant to be tied into at some point but we'll likely never fully know.
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Sep 16, 2021 07:16
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Zaphod42 posted:But she could have had the dragons without her husband dying, that's just how things played out. Correlation does not imply causation. Dany definitely suffered, but I don't think you can say she only got the dragons because of it. Didn't the Targs try the whole "walk into the fire holding dragon eggs" thing at Summerhall and the outcome was a bunch of dead Targs? There had to be something about MMD being both a magic user and/or having recently completed a blood magic ritual that made a difference. That said, we don't know for sure that there wasn't a blood sacrifice involved at Summerhall or that Dany's lineage wasn't a factor in why she got to live and her dragons hatched.
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Sep 16, 2021 13:58
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