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Gynovore posted:If Biden really gave a poo poo, all he would have to do is modify the Social Security rules so that anyone who is eligible for vaccination, refuses it, then catches Covid, is not eligible for any disability. This would send Cletus and Lurleen running to the nearest Walgreen in ten seconds flat. Nothing gets between a redneck and his disability check. This is ableist and lovely. 
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Sep 7, 2021 19:52
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Jaxyon posted:This is ableist and lovely. Explain how its ableist. And if you're response is "some people cannot make it to walgreens" then create a federal program to help vacciante people in their own homes.
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Sep 7, 2021 19:56
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Denying people the money they need to live because they made wrong choices and/or just plain got unlucky, is not good. If that's not obvious, I don't know how to explain it in a way that won't come off as condescending. What is necessary is a vaccination requirement to enter every non-essential public space. It's fair, it affects everyone equally, it's not a mandate, and it has been shown to increase vaccination rates where it's been done.
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Sep 7, 2021 20:00
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Dems could just pass a law where any able person who doesn’t take the vaccine could be sued for tens of thousands of dollars and the anti-vaxxor has to pay all legal fees regardless of the outcome. It seems to be a pretty popular option and the Supreme Court said it’s cool with it. But there I go thinking of things the Dems could do beyond tweeting “get the vaccine”.
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Sep 7, 2021 20:08
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Well at least we can all agree that someone should do something; shame about the current state of democracy inaction  Skyarb posted:Explain how its ableist. And if you're response is "some people cannot make it to walgreens" then create a federal program to help vacciante people in their own homes. My guess would be mocking people that currently receive disability checks, which is how that post reads. I'm not going to probe you for it or ask you to edit, but keep in mind there's all sorts of people from all sorts of backgrounds that receive those checks and it's not all lazy rednecks hooked up to the Fox News drip feed. Professor Beetus fucked around with this message at 20:50 on Sep 7, 2021 |
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Sep 7, 2021 20:15
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LimburgLimbo posted:You know I got interested in looking at what the actual evidence of whether Ivermectin could be useful for COVID is. There's a fair amount of evidence to show it *may* be of some use, but it's obviously nowhere near the effectiveness of vaccine. The guys who got the Nobel for it's use have also not really been that forthcoming about it. All there really seems to be is a pretty lukewarm response from William Campbell back in April 2020: From everything I've read about ivermectin it's potential antiviral effect would require much higher doses than is safe to replicate the in vitro experiments and even then, those didn't kill the virus outright, they just slowed replication. Maybe it helps a sick person stave off the worst of it but for someone unvaccinated I don't know it would help them by enough time for an immune response to save their lungs, especially since just because it's present in your system doesn't mean it's going to be evenly distributed everywhere. Whatever potential it has to help it is nowhere even close to vaccination, so it being an alternative is simply a joke.
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Sep 7, 2021 20:31
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DeeplyConcerned posted:trust me you guys do not want long Covid. my dad had a seizure and had to go to the hospital and he came back with it, immediately infecting my mom and I. i'm tired as all gently caress all the time. and my brain no work good anymore. Folks, we've found our new D&D mod. Genuinely sorry to hear that, though. How long has it been since that happened?
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Sep 7, 2021 20:32
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Professor Beetus posted:My guess would be mocking people that currently receive disability checks, which is how that post reads. Exactly. It was pretty obvious and really awful in a country where disability is barely enough to live on and a lot of people who need it don't get it.
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Sep 7, 2021 21:08
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Florida beat covid! No more deaths, time for more parties! https://twitter.com/MiamiHerald/status/1435336780925087747
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Sep 7, 2021 22:46
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Real big uptick in death certs marked "definitely NOT covid" though
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Sep 7, 2021 22:52
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Died of lungs being mysteriously full of fluid.
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Sep 7, 2021 23:03
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They didn't die guys they went to live in heaven. Which is new game +
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Sep 7, 2021 23:43
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tagesschau posted:This is the key, I think. Being asked to give up everything you enjoy just a little bit longer, we promise, while you see full football stadiums and people dining indoors like it's 2019, is an increasingly insane request. In the face of woefully inadequate public-health measures, my being maybe 90% as cautious as I should be is really not the source of the problem, and insinuating that it is does nobody any favors and just insults people's intelligence. The older I get, the more I understand that those pink, cigar-smoking things on The Raccoons were the perfect representation of capitalists.
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Sep 7, 2021 23:45
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I'm in favor of simply stripping citizenship away from people who can be vaccinated and refuse to do so on the grounds that if they don't want to contribute to holding up their end of the social contract then the country shouldn't uphold its end either and that's it. You can be a citizen again after you get vaccinated assuming you pass the tests and background checks we subject immigration applicants to. If you don't, you're internally deported to somewhere sucky like Wyoming.
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Sep 7, 2021 23:50
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I can totally get the position pt6a and Tagesschau are in. Where I am there are practically zero protections anymore. When kids at school get infected, the state doesn't even recommend self isolation for their mates anymore. Health care is so overworked that some surgeries now have a waiting list of 2 years, but everyone around me is acting like 2019. I have to defend why I'm wearing a mask at the doctor's office. The only place where I occasionally see people still keeping up any kind of hygiene is the Asian supermarket. I am expected to show up in person at at least some work functions. I constantly feel like a crazy person because the reality I live in seems to be a completely different one from my colleagues and most IRL friends. By contrast when o go onto this thread I feel that I should be ashamed of myself because I visited a supermarket in person. It just gnaws on your sense of reality and maintaining that dissonance is tiring.
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Sep 7, 2021 23:51
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HonorableTB posted:I'm in favor of simply stripping citizenship away from people who can be vaccinated and refuse to do so on the grounds that if they don't want to contribute to holding up their end of the social contract then the country shouldn't uphold its end either and that's it. You can be a citizen again after you get vaccinated assuming you pass the tests and background checks we subject immigration applicants to. That's intensely unconstitutional and I would never, ever in 1,000 years want to open the "let's start stripping citizenship" door. Ever. gently caress that. Citizenship is sacred.
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Sep 7, 2021 23:51
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How are u posted:That's intensely unconstitutional and I would never, ever in 1,000 years want to open the "let's start stripping citizenship" door. Ever. gently caress that. Citizenship is sacred. is it though because we drone strike an awful lot of our own citizens in extrajudicial murders to be holding it up as sacred besides, what part of being born on a particular patch of dirt is sacred? if i'm born on the literal US/Canadian border, which takes precedence and why? imo citizenship should just be automatically given to any resident moving into a country like you would update your legal address and vehicle registration upon moving. HonorableTB fucked around with this message at 23:55 on Sep 7, 2021 |
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Sep 7, 2021 23:52
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HonorableTB posted:is it though They're still citizens, even if we drone strike them. The Federal and state governments murder plenty of citizens in various ways. What kind of point are you trying to make, even? My point of view is: unassailable citizenship is a genuinely good thing. Opening the door to stripping it from social undesirables is intensely problematic. Stripping citizenship from unworthy people is something that fascists love to dream about. I'm not calling you a fascist, but you should really think that through.
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Sep 7, 2021 23:56
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How are u posted:They're still citizens, even if we drone strike them. The Federal and state governments murder plenty of citizens in various ways. What kind of point are you trying to make, even? it's not all that different from what others have been consistently advocating in this thread vis a vis China's authoritarian actions to curb the pandemic. Why's it okay to weld people into buildings and heavily regulate and disrupt internal migration using the hukou system on top of the increased pandemic restrictions, but not make citizenship conditional on upholding the social good when both actions have the same intended effect in curbing the pandemic and have ostensibly the same requirements re: disregarding fundamental rights of a citizen? That's my point. Either you can curb the pandemic using authoritarian measures or you don't curb the pandemic at all, especially not long term. Gotta have a carrot to go with the stick to beat these decadent westerners into compliance somehow. In a normal reality, death would be the stick and "not dying with vaccination" would be the carrot, but here we are in the stupidest timeline where you provide the carrot of vaccination and the chuds reject it and beat themselves with the horse paste stick out of spite. and all the while thousands more die every day. HonorableTB fucked around with this message at 00:02 on Sep 8, 2021 |
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Sep 7, 2021 23:57
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Statelessness is an absolute horrorshow. Creating a human rights crisis in order to make covid slightly more manageable is a briefly tempting revenge fantasy but you might as well say "what if every antivaxxer got a roundhouse kick to the face each day they go without getting vaxxed." It's a puerile notion at best.
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Sep 7, 2021 23:59
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If you’re going to send out the goon squad to round up and deport the unvaccinated, you should instead have the goon squad forcibly vaccinate them and let them go. Less human rights crisis, better public health outcome
haveblue fucked around with this message at 00:05 on Sep 8, 2021 |
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Sep 8, 2021 00:03
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haveblue posted:If youre going to send out the goon squads to round up and deport the unvaccinated, you should instead have the goon squad forcibly vaccinate them and let them go. Less human rights crisis, better public health outcome the board rejected my first idea for an autonomous hunter-killer drone that patrols the skies over the chudlands, chasing fleeing chuds down the street firing vax needles with a silent fwip-fwip-fwip In seriousness though, the point of my statelessness comment was to highlight that these kinds of measures are more than likely the only thing that will keep the pandemic reasonably controlled as evidenced by the only country to keep it controlled long term, which is China, who accomplished this through similar means considered draconian and taboo to western values. Even the ideal western response ends in Australia and New Zealand shrugging and giving up after a year of successful containment. America and Britain are currently in a competition to see who can die the fastest, most of mainland Europe isn't far behind, and the global south has been doing as badly as they always have except now it's worse because delta is worse. HonorableTB fucked around with this message at 00:07 on Sep 8, 2021 |
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Sep 8, 2021 00:04
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Yeah, if you’re going to violate someone’s rights, just hold them down and vax them. They’ll probably forget all about it within five years anyway.
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Sep 8, 2021 00:05
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the holy poopacy posted:but you might as well say "what if every antivaxxer got a roundhouse kick to the face each day they go without getting vaxxed." Go on....
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Sep 8, 2021 00:06
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HonorableTB posted:Why's it okay to weld people into buildings and heavily regulate and disrupt internal migration using the hukou system on top of the increased pandemic restrictions, but not make citizenship conditional on upholding the social good when both actions have the same intended effect in curbing the pandemic and have ostensibly the same requirements re: disregarding fundamental rights of a citizen? Well yeah no poo poo the CCP is fully fine with these tactics. They're an authoritarian quasi-fascist state party beholden to no one. I do not want my government to exercise that type of power. This is not some all or nothing issue. The choice is not a simple binary between fascist authoritarianism one one side and whatever it is you'd call the US response on the other. Besides, the pandemic will wind down eventually even in the USA because the population will continue to slowly get closer to full vaccination. Once we have the kids vaccinated it will pretty much only be the proud chuds left. Hesitant people will come around with enough inconvenience.
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Sep 8, 2021 00:08
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How are u posted:Well yeah no poo poo the CCP is fully fine with these tactics. They're an authoritarian quasi-fascist state party beholden to no one. I do not want my government to exercise that type of power. If the choice isn't a binary one then what, in your opinion, is the correct way to approach it given we have no successful examples of long term pandemic management without accompanying authoritarian overreach? The middle ground, which would be what, Australia? New Zealand? Britain?? I know nobody's handled it worse than the US but if the middle ground is Boris Johnson's shambling UK brexiting with a cough and a smile then that's not appreciably any different aside from vaccination rates and only then because they didn't have the antivaxxer background the US does. What's the answer in your view? The only solution you offer is "wait until the virus burns itself out after running out of unvaccinated people while the bodies keep stacking up as we achieve full vaccination by pure attrition" which seems like a much less effective management method than anything else proposed and doesn't include the increasingly high possibility of a vaccine escaping variant outcompeting delta, like Mu still might. Then everyone's hosed and we're back to square 1. HonorableTB fucked around with this message at 00:13 on Sep 8, 2021 |
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Sep 8, 2021 00:10
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HonorableTB posted:In seriousness though, the point of my statelessness comment was to highlight that these kinds of measures are more than likely the only thing that will keep the pandemic reasonably controlled as evidenced by the only country to keep it controlled long term, which is China, who accomplished this through similar means considered draconian and taboo to western values. Even the ideal western response ends in Australia and New Zealand shrugging and giving up after a year of successful containment. America and Britain are currently in a competition to see who can die the fastest, most of mainland Europe isn't far behind, and the global south has been doing as badly as they always have except now it's worse because delta is worse. The point is that you've actually concocted an example that is far more chilling and less effective than anything China has done. You're pointing to China's success in containing the pandemic and instead of saying we should copy China's strict quarantine procedures (which aren't even entirely opposed to Western values) you're saying we should copy China's concentration camps.
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Sep 8, 2021 00:16
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HonorableTB posted:The only solution you offer is "wait until the virus burns itself out after running out of unvaccinated people while the bodies keep stacking up as we achieve full vaccination by pure attrition" Historically this has pretty much been how pandemics have worked. We are lucky in that we have a miracle vaccine, so people (and soon children) can make the choice to protect themselves. I look a the rest of the world doing pretty terribly and have to think that that's just how things go. China is unique in having the ability to coerce and forcibly control its population to the degree that 'zero covid' strategies have worked thusfar. China will also, however, give up those strategies at some point in the future. Even the authoritarian fascist state is going to have to live with covid eventually, because the virus is endemic and here to stay.
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Sep 8, 2021 00:17
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How are u posted:Well yeah no poo poo the CCP is fully fine with these tactics. They're an authoritarian quasi-fascist state party beholden to no one. I do not want my government to exercise that type of power. I mean the Chinese response was basically what we do in the US to TB cases or if a biosafety level lab has an escape of like ebola or something. It's not that the US is above actual pandemic control measures, it's that the US just didn't think it was that serious. Like right now, if we were serious about full vaccinating and not just opening back up no matter what, we'd be importing vaccines that have been cleared for children, but we aren't.
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Sep 8, 2021 00:19
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Epic High Five posted:I mean the Chinese response was basically what we do in the US to TB cases or if a biosafety level lab has an escape of like ebola or something. It's not that the US is above actual pandemic control measures, it's that the US just didn't think it was that serious. Like right now, if we were serious about full vaccinating and not just opening back up no matter what, we'd be importing vaccines that have been cleared for children, but we aren't. I used to think "ah if only Obama had been in his 3rd term we could have possibly nipped this in the bud, just like how he did such a good job with Ebola". But now, looking at, well, pretty much the entire world suffering through the same experience, I'm not so sure. I think this pandemic was going to wallop us all spectacularly no matter what we tried to do initially.
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Sep 8, 2021 00:22
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There’s a difference between authoritarian and fascist. The biggest thing China has in common with fascism is that it’s partially run by capitalists.
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Sep 8, 2021 00:23
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The same things goons are asking and demanding for in this thread, such as mask mandates and vaccine mandates and closure of schools etc, are all things which by and large the federal US government does not have the authority or power to do and the people at the state level who do have that power want to feed children into a virus grinder. What is to be done?
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Sep 8, 2021 00:23
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jetz0r posted:Florida beat covid! No more deaths, time for more parties! China is at it again with all that lying! Jokes aside…. https://twitter.com/ALhospitals/status/1434983342970183681?s=20 That vaccine percentage is higher than I would like but understandable considering the low vaccine rates of Alabama.
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Sep 8, 2021 00:24
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HonorableTB posted:it's not all that different from what others have been consistently advocating in this thread vis a vis China's authoritarian actions to curb the pandemic. Why's it okay to weld people into buildings and heavily regulate and disrupt internal migration using the hukou system on top of the increased pandemic restrictions, but not make citizenship conditional on upholding the social good when both actions have the same intended effect in curbing the pandemic and have ostensibly the same requirements re: disregarding fundamental rights of a citizen? That's my point. Either you can curb the pandemic using authoritarian measures or you don't curb the pandemic at all, especially not long term. Gotta have a carrot to go with the stick to beat these decadent westerners into compliance somehow. In a normal reality, death would be the stick and "not dying with vaccination" would be the carrot, but here we are in the stupidest timeline where you provide the carrot of vaccination and the chuds reject it and beat themselves with the horse paste stick out of spite. and all the while thousands more die every day. This seems like a sloppy conception of fundamental human rights, and of the relative effectiveness of measures like strict lockdowns vs. revoking citizenship in directly reducing transmission
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Sep 8, 2021 00:24
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haveblue posted:If you’re going to send out the goon squad to round up and deport the unvaccinated, you should instead have the goon squad forcibly vaccinate them and let them go. Less human rights crisis, better public health outcome Exactly, this pandemic is not going to be solved with more convoluted, shifting rules that increase suffering. I mean, it's also not going to be solved by the American political system, because it can't be bribed or negotiated with. But it's telling that the authoritarian power fantasies are focused more on punishing scapegoats than trying to deal with the virus on it's terms.
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Sep 8, 2021 00:26
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HonorableTB posted:The same things goons are asking and demanding for in this thread, such as mask mandates and vaccine mandates and closure of schools etc, are all things which by and large the federal US government does not have the authority or power to do and the people at the state level who do have that power want to feed children into a virus grinder. What is to be done? I would say: try to let go of the things that you can't control and live your life the best you can. The pandemic die has been cast, the bell can't be unwrung, and the path we're on (slowly ratcheting up vaccines for a couple of years until covid burns out and becomes a nuisance disease) is pretty well set in stone. Set expectations accordingly. That's me, anyway.
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Sep 8, 2021 00:26
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How are u posted:I would say: try to let go of the things that you can't control and live your life the best you can. If we can't change the course of this and anything we might do fails to matter then why are we even having this continuing charade of mitigation and management? Might as well stop pretending anyone in power cares about this entirely and hope we keep the deaths under 2 million
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Sep 8, 2021 00:29
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How are u posted:I used to think "ah if only Obama had been in his 3rd term we could have possibly nipped this in the bud, just like how he did such a good job with Ebola". But now, looking at, well, pretty much the entire world suffering through the same experience, I'm not so sure. I think this pandemic was going to wallop us all spectacularly no matter what we tried to do initially. Well it's a respiratory virus, not some mysterious bug from outer space. Even the Bible has guidelines on how to prevent a pandemic from spreading. You just either do them and hopefully it's enough, or you don't and get wiped out. There's no bargaining with a virus, you've gotta pick a path and you've gotta pick it early. HonorableTB posted:The same things goons are asking and demanding for in this thread, such as mask mandates and vaccine mandates and closure of schools etc, are all things which by and large the federal US government does not have the authority or power to do and the people at the state level who do have that power want to feed children into a virus grinder. What is to be done? Well the federal government can declare war powers and all that goes away, but the states do have those powers and do regularly utilize them. They just aren't doing them with COVID, specifically. The problem isn't in the system, it's in the unwillingness to use that system. So you put people in power over those systems who are willing to do the needful and you protect them. I mean that's obviously not what happened here but that's how you stop a pandemic spread.
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Sep 8, 2021 00:29
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HonorableTB posted:The same things goons are asking and demanding for in this thread, such as mask mandates and vaccine mandates and closure of schools etc, are all things which by and large the federal US government does not have the authority or power to do and the people at the state level who do have that power want to feed children into a virus grinder. What is to be done? Some sacred marks on paper exist, so people have to suffer and die, nothing else can be done. We're a country trapped in a burning building, looking at an exit door with an old "DO NOT OPEN" sign taped on it, trying to bargain with the sign to let us out.
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Sep 8, 2021 00:30
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Lord Stimperor posted:I can totally get the position pt6a and Tagesschau are in. God drat I hear this extremely hard. I've already talked about recent medical events so I won't overshare again but suffice to say non-critical non-covid relate care is getting absolutely hosed right now and there's definitely a non-zero amount of people who are going to die and have much worse health outcomes due to their inability to get the care they need because of the immense strain the healthcare system is under with Covid. I'm basically checking in with all my old health care contacts from when I worked in that field and everyone is stressed as gently caress and basically in a state of constant despair. And then we see our better-to-do family and friends taking vacations and going around unmasked and partying like it's 2019 and I just can't loving reconcile these two realities in my brain. Half of one of our DND (5E) groups meets in person while we continue to stay zoomed in and I feel like we're in the twilght zone or something. Professor Beetus fucked around with this message at 00:36 on Sep 8, 2021 |
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Sep 8, 2021 00:31
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