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He's not saying it's counter to labor justice to do it. What I read him as saying is that paying well and fair rates is so ingrained in the company that making it a stretch goal is something they don't needto do. Which is very much a show me before I have any chance of believing you type of statement but not something that I read as him saying that tying it to stretch rewards is counter to labor justice.
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Sep 8, 2021 21:23
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He's implying that people who do have that as stretch goals, instead of having a high base rate, are counter to labor justice. Which is (a) silly, other people don't start their projects with a Viacom IP (b) doesn't explain why they wouldn't have that baked in anyway, higher is better even if their base rate is good (c) doesn't explain why coming up with extra doodads is better.
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Sep 8, 2021 21:26
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I didn't pick up that implicationquote:But again, we will never tie that to a stretch goal because that's something we would do regardless of how successful the project was,” he said. “If that's the model that people are using, awesome, that's great. But labour justice is so central to our work that we think it's a little weird for us to proclaim that we're doing this thing when we see it as something we try to shoot for every single day.” He didn't speak negatively of people using that model, he's just saying they will never do that. And then adding the rest of that to try and not make his company look bad, by saying they don't need to because they are so great and good about labor. Like Moths said it's just him trying to find a way out. But alas it's parsing intent from just text so 
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Sep 8, 2021 21:36
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Mr.Misfit posted:I find this highly fascinating, and if I may ask, Some of this makes more sense when you read the work of one of the original reactionaries, Nicolás Gómez Dávila, who, to put it mildly, was an awful person. He wrote a ton of aphorisms, mainly concerned with keeping the world under pre-Vatican II Catholic rule. He's not technically a fascist, but he is one of the founders of reactionary thought, whose central idea is that modern society is corrupt and decadent, and thus he envisages a return to the "good old days". Where it differs from fascism is that there's no nationalist bent or attempt to build a group around himself. Dávila's writing has no mechanism by which "we" will seize power and return the world to this pure state; he simply criticizes the world and watches it get "worse", and he deliberately kept himself out of any political office, though posts were offered to him. He was the 1970-1990s equivalent of a conservative doomer twitter poster. It's one of those "all squares are rectangles, but not all rectangles are squares" type deals. It seems impossible to be a fascist without being a reactionary, but non-fascist reactionism is possible, though rarer. https://web.archive.org/web/20070210070255/http://www.wandea.org.pl/nicolas-davila.html Dávila posted:Modern man does not love, but seeks refuge in love; does not hope, but seeks refuge in hope; does not believe, but seeks refuge in a dogma. (I, 212)
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Sep 8, 2021 21:52
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Maybe I'm the rear end in a top hat for being way too primed to pick up on passive aggression but quote:But labour justice is so central to our work that we think it's a little weird for us to proclaim that we're doing this thing when we see it as something we try to shoot for every single day.
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Sep 8, 2021 21:54
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zachol posted:Maybe I'm the rear end in a top hat for being way too primed to pick up on passive aggression but I think it speaks to someone who's on the defensive. Whether they're on the defensive because they feel unfairly attacked or because they feel accurately attacked I couldn't say. Though in general I don't think it looks good to talk about the importance of labor justice while advocating for a secret process over an open process.
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Sep 8, 2021 22:10
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No idea what Magpie's writing rates are, but when I interviewed for a Social Media Manager position in 2017 it was a whopping $10/hr so lol.
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Sep 8, 2021 22:29
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DressCodeBlue posted:No idea what Magpie's writing rates are, but when I interviewed for a Social Media Manager position in 2017 it was a whopping $10/hr so lol. yikes lmao
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Sep 8, 2021 22:47
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DressCodeBlue posted:No idea what Magpie's writing rates are, but when I interviewed for a Social Media Manager position in 2017 it was a whopping $10/hr so lol. competitive rates
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Sep 8, 2021 22:54
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zachol posted:Maybe I'm the rear end in a top hat for being way too primed to pick up on passive aggression but It's Diaz Truman, zero surprise there.
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Sep 8, 2021 23:00
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zachol posted:Maybe I'm the rear end in a top hat for being way too primed to pick up on passive aggression but In principle I kind of agree with it, though. I think the burden is on the employer to pay a fair wage or to set up profit sharing systems (in reality of course they have to be forced to do that through organizing, but if you ask me what an employer trying to do "labor justice" looks like, it's on them to proactively set up those systems). Tying it to a kickstarter goal is weird to me because you're putting the burden on the contributors - a boss who says to their employees "look, I *wanted* to pay you more but the people just didn't pony up enough to hit that stretch goal so instead of paying you we're sending all the contributors little pins" is trying to shift the attention about where that responsibility lies. Like, if you want to do justice then build the profit-sharing in from the beginning, don't make it a bonus that people earn because of the actions of third parties. Edit: that's very much an in-principle thing, though. For me to take any specific claim seriously, they have to show that they're already doing the good work - otherwise it's just a cop-out for doing neither the original work or the bonus approach.
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Sep 8, 2021 23:38
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This was discussed earlier in the thread I think, but I'm sympathetic to the idea of a Kickstarter where the lowest level is only enough for the unavoidable publishing costs, but none of the editors or contributors (including and especially the project leads) actually make any money off of it, and everything past that minimum gets divided in some even or equitable way. Starting off as some kind of zine-like collaboration, and everything's based off of rev share rather than a base level of pay. I definitely agree it's lovely if you're paying the editors and organizers but not the authors.
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Sep 8, 2021 23:47
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A lot of stretch goal pay bumps are basically bunk, in that a 25% bump sounds good but is actually pretty mediocre if all the writers are making a three-digit sum.
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Sep 8, 2021 23:56
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admanb posted:I think it speaks to someone who's on the defensive. Whether they're on the defensive because they feel unfairly attacked or because they feel accurately attacked I couldn't say. Honestly I'm not surprised if he's on the defensive about the question, because I don't remember seeing that particular question("why not a pay more stretch goal?") do any numbers until after that last AP stretch goal anyway. People didn't seem that worried about if the contributing writers were making enough money until they were mad about the money for an only tangentially related reason (the AP was enough to get me to drop out just because I don't like celebrity AP culture at all, but I still don't think that the last million and a half dollars were all going to Satine or anything, that's not logical). He's on the defensive because if he says like "Well hey, that's a great idea" or something it'll turn out largely to be a wedge question so that "How can you justify paying X celebrities" can get in after him.
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Sep 8, 2021 23:57
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theironjef posted:Honestly I'm not surprised if he's on the defensive about the question, because I don't remember seeing that particular question("why not a pay more stretch goal?") do any numbers until after that last AP stretch goal anyway. People didn't seem that worried about if the contributing writers were making enough money until they were mad about the money for an only tangentially related reason (the AP was enough to get me to drop out just because I don't like celebrity AP culture at all, but I still don't think that the last million and a half dollars were all going to Satine or anything, that's not logical). He's on the defensive because if he says like "Well hey, that's a great idea" or something it'll turn out largely to be a wedge question so that "How can you justify paying X celebrities" can get in after him. Are you implying that people only started beating the "Pay contributors more!!" drum because they were mad when it was evident Magpie would not back off a Satine Phoenix-GM'ed game? Because I've definitely seen rumblings about whether or not the ($9,535,317, before any kind of backer kit or people upping pledges post-kickstarter) windfall would land at the feet of the contributors for at least half the kickstarter now. e- And regarding the language, MDT was happy to appropriate social justice language as a weapon against criticism all the way back in the Zak blog posts. I don't see a reason to give him the benefit of the doubt this time. I just speedran the past 10ish pages of posts but it wasn't that long ago were someone commented how they got aggro blocked and refunded for criticizing the Satine Phoenix GM choice on the kickstarter, either. Nuns with Guns fucked around with this message at 01:07 on Sep 9, 2021 |
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Sep 9, 2021 00:59
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Nuns with Guns posted:Are you implying that people only started beating the "Pay contributors more!!" drum because they were mad when it was evident Magpie would not back off a Satine Phoenix-GM'ed game? Because I've definitely seen rumblings about whether or not the ($9,535,317, before any kind of backer kit or people upping pledges post-kickstarter) windfall would land at the feet of the contributors for at least half the kickstarter now. Not 100%, but that is definitely when that line of questioning intensified, no question about it. Personally I think that's pretty normal and not hypocritical or anything for people who started that line of complaint around that time, they were generally happy with every other stretch goal being something they wanted, I don't recall anyone making an impassioned plea for writer checks when the Pai Sho tile was announced, for example. People see something they absolutely don't want and it makes finding fault (real fault, again) suddenly a lot easier. For the record I'm not giving him the benefit of the doubt either, just trying to piece out his current pathology. Like I said, I dropped my pledge the moment the AP was announced, none of this looks good to me. theironjef fucked around with this message at 02:23 on Sep 9, 2021 |
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Sep 9, 2021 02:20
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It might not even be because of that AP stretch goal, but people's current views of Magpie and/or the industry is definitely coloring their interpretation of that answer. He specifically says he's not disparaging publishers who do higher compensation as part of stretch goals and says Magpie bakes in their compensation rate before getting surprised with pre-orders/sales. That should be as noncontroversial as a restaurant saying "We don't do tips here because expecting employees to rely on tipping runs counter to our philosophy on fair compensation" It's fair to immediately follow up with "Ok, but what are you paying? And is it livable?"
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Sep 9, 2021 03:15
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Spookyelectric posted:Tiny Taverns. It's a TinyD6 book (Gallant Knight Games). Oh, hey, Tiny Taverns is yours? I bought that on sight because it looked adorable, even if I haven't gotten to play it yet because... pandemic. TheDiceMustRoll posted:It's probably pretty frustrating to know that WotC would rather weather the scandal of letting sex offenders officiate M:TG than continue to allow your stupid rear end to attend events. Eh, Hambly scammed his way to a paid-off new truck on the backs of people he got to donate to his 'legal defense fund' for a fight he faked at GenCon. He's doing fine for himself on wingnut welfare. Liquid Communism fucked around with this message at 05:30 on Sep 9, 2021 |
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Sep 9, 2021 05:17
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Toph Bei Fong posted:[.... a lot of terrible quotes....] Great Scott, it sounds downright miserable in how dumb these are. 
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Sep 9, 2021 06:16
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Mr.Misfit posted:Great Scott, it sounds downright miserable in how dumb these are. I kinda like the one plagiarized from Rosa Luxemburg.
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Sep 9, 2021 12:17
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Mr.Misfit posted:Great Scott, it sounds downright miserable in how dumb these are. That's kinda where I sit on this. The world they paint is one of constant fear and ruin. It has to be awful to live like that. Based on that, I don't think they "like" anything. There is only the line they decide to defend. Now, where that line is (and who nudges it around) is more subjective, whether it's American Prosperity, Whiteness, "Western Culture," or even just the (IMO laughable) "ethics in game journalism," There is The Wall, and they must defend it lest the Barbarian Hordes come ransacking it and the golden fields beyond. The position always feels like they just want a life that's simple, but not peaceful.
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Sep 9, 2021 12:28
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Liquid Communism posted:
Why would you say he "faked" a fight that had witnesses and a dude was forced to confess to, and apologize for, starting with a trace-able motive? Was everybody lying? Did Nick Rekeita fake the legal documents he went over on a stream too? 
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Sep 9, 2021 13:10
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TheDiceMustRoll posted:Why would you say he "faked" a fight that had witnesses and a dude was forced to confess to, and apologize for, starting with a trace-able motive? Was everybody lying? Did Nick Rekeita fake the legal documents he went over on a stream too? iirc he faked that it was an unprovoked attack that caused him serious harm, when it was him trying to start poo poo with people he had internet beeves with and getting a retaliatory punch in the process
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Sep 9, 2021 13:56
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TheDiceMustRoll posted:Why would you say he "faked" a fight that had witnesses and a dude was forced to confess to, and apologize for, starting with a trace-able motive? Was everybody lying? Did Nick Rekeita fake the legal documents he went over on a stream too? Why the gently caress do you watch Nick Rekeita streams and follow so many chuds so closely, anyway
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Sep 9, 2021 14:28
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TheDiceMustRoll posted:Why would you say he "faked" a fight that had witnesses and a dude was forced to confess to, and apologize for, starting with a trace-able motive? Was everybody lying? Did Nick Rekeita fake the legal documents he went over on a stream too? Why are you trying to defend the honor of Jeremy-loving-Hambly of all people?
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Sep 9, 2021 14:33
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Hambly got basically slapped+ outside a bar and tried to paint himself as a gamergate martyr for his stance on Anita Sarkeesian. gently caress that guy, there's literally no reason to give him brain space except derisively.
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Sep 9, 2021 14:44
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Feeple posted:That's kinda where I sit on this. The world they paint is one of constant fear and ruin. It has to be awful to live like that. I think it's less an active want and more just a foundational assumption that this is how the world is, generally because they weren't raised in the most caring environment. (Not necessarily abusive, just... not adequately supportive.) So they grow up with this notion that the entire world is a dangerous place, full of wicked people trying to undermine the status quo and get one over on everyone else, and only The Right Kind of Media are safe to consume because of that. I assume they probably like some of it, but I'd guess a lot of the time it's more a sense of comfort and escape from the world of Bad People Are Everywhere. Which, like, as someone with anxiety I would also be extremely upset if I thought someone was trying to take away the stuff I use to try and ease that anxiety! But of course 99% of the "bad people" aren't even trying to take anything away, it's just a bunch of uncritical assumptions because That's How the World Works. I wonder if a lot of it also comes from actual bullying about being into nerd poo poo, probably from family, early enough that they got the impression that the world wants to stop them from being happy with their stuff. Brains are dumb as hell, and when you're young and learning about the world you develop a lot of completely wrong assumptions about how things work just based on "Well, this happened, so clearly it's 100% natural and the way things are." So ultimately they probably want a peaceful life, but they don't understand how to achieve it, because they've grown up to believe that peace only comes when you destroy all the bad guys, and under an anxious mindset, there will always be more bad guys.
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Sep 9, 2021 14:45
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Discussing the facts of a situation doesn't make you a crypto-nazi, folks.
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Sep 9, 2021 14:46
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Feeple posted:That's kinda where I sit on this. The world they paint is one of constant fear and ruin. It has to be awful to live like that. I agree. It reminds me of those terrible reviews of Tarantino movies that Abby Shapiro and her husband did, where whenever they start to get into it or find something interesting, they immediately pull back and ask "What does it mean?" or "What's the point of this?", completely missing that a lot of the fun of movies is interpreting what the director is trying to say (and whether they pulled that off), or to figure out what it means to you. Any sort of ambiguity must be condemned, and any attempt to "trust the viewer" must be questioned. You see that a lot in conservative discussions about aesthetics, honestly. "What I like" must be objectively good, of a quality which no one could possibly disagree with, and "What I don't like" must similarly be terrible in some grand cosmic sense, such that only fools would enjoy it. It seems very insecure, and would be sad if it wasn't so annoying and harmful.
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Sep 9, 2021 14:47
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dwarf74 posted:Discussing the facts of a situation doesn't make you a crypto-nazi, folks. Questioning arguments is the same as defending the opposition, as I have learned from twitter.
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Sep 9, 2021 14:47
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The issue is more that DiceMustRoll has a history of this, including actively defending Zak S before the whole rapist thing happened. So yeah, I immediately question why the gently caress the dude is intimately acquainted with Nick Rekeita’s streaming contents, ‘cause that dude is an asshat chud involved in the legal defense grift of Vic Mignogna.
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Sep 9, 2021 14:51
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The statement "did he fake the legal documents he went over on a stream" does not mean he is intimately familiar with the contents of that stream. I heard of it too, and I never saw it; the lore on this one goes back years, in this thread and its predecessors, at this point. The fight did happen. Nick Rekeita has attempted, to some degree successfully, to position himself as a victim in that confrontation; most of us in this thread do not agree with that characterization. TDMR, the "faked" part was not implying that the fight never happened; it was implying that he caused it to happen, and has greatly exaggerated the specifics of the incident in order to try to put himself in the best possible light.
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Sep 9, 2021 17:53
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Mors Rattus posted:The issue is more that DiceMustRoll has a history of this, including actively defending Zak S before the whole rapist thing happened. In most of the situations like this I've seen, people are usually just gadflies or adversarial in the debate sense. Like, yes, it's a tactic for actual bad actors to pretend to be that, but it's also worth it to have someone like that around to make sure your own arguments aren't built on a foundation of bullshit. I wasn't around for the Zak S stuff so I can't say anything on that, but it's silly to get aggro over factual corrections, no matter what the source.
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Sep 9, 2021 18:30
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Mors Rattus posted:Why the gently caress do you watch Nick Rekeita streams and follow so many chuds so closely, anyway I don't lmao. What a ridiculous accusation. Here's a flow of how my post was made from my history before I went to bed.  Mors Rattus posted:The issue is more that DiceMustRoll has a history of this, including actively defending Zak S before the whole rapist thing happened. Doing research isn't being "intimately acquainted" with anyone or anything. You're literally getting mad I used google to verify something and try to turn it into a whole "AH YES YOU CLEARLY MASTURBATE TO VIDEOS OF RIGHT WING YOUTUBERS HOURLY, ITS THE ONLY POSSIBLE EXPLANATION" thing like please use less internet dude, I cut way back and it's been enormously healthy for me. actually3raccoons posted:Why are you trying to defend the honor of Jeremy-loving-Hambly of all people? I have literally taken the fattest, greasiest poo poo on Jeremy Hambly multiple times in this thread, and I'm blocked by him on twitter, because I roasted him about pissing on his floor and trying to turn it into a dunk. You can literally roast that guy for years without running out of content because he's an idiot who publicly embarrasses himself online every few hours.
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Sep 9, 2021 23:01
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The Quartering moved into vanilla right-wing gifting because he'd managed to be too publicly toxic for Wizards of the Coast to ever want to associate with, and that's really loving saying something. They cut off all MtG preview material first, then when that didn't work he was banned, not just from IRL tournaments for life, but also permabanned from MtG: Arena. Every major avenue for the Magic channel he'd been building was unceremoniously  -ed. Springboarding that into a rebrand into broader hateful nerd rage videos was really all he could do to keep the gift going.And legal stuff around The Quartering and Nick Rekeita are/were pretty popular for a while. Nick Rekeita was Vic Mignogna's lawyer for those stupid SLAPP cases Vic was sending out after the decades of quiet rumors about him being a sex creep finally came to a head. You could go dig through people laughing at all the dumb bullshit around that case if you want to laugh at legal messes for a while. It's not exactly hard to be aware of details around that stuff.
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Sep 10, 2021 05:05
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Nuns with Guns posted:The Quartering moved into vanilla right-wing gifting because he'd managed to be too publicly toxic for Wizards of the Coast to ever want to associate with, and that's really loving saying something. They cut off all MtG preview material first, then when that didn't work he was banned, not just from IRL tournaments for life, but also permabanned from MtG: Arena. Every major avenue for the Magic channel he'd been building was unceremoniously Technically it was Ty Beard, who also acts as Rekeita's estate lawyer and if you think that's suspicious Nick would start a fund for Mignogna without even asking Vic first and getting Beard to prosecute it, well, congratulations on being awake. That said if you followed folks like Greg Doucette who kept people up to date because he is an actual lawyer who does actual cases (there has always been debate about how much law Nick practices regularly) who had found out about the case and commented on it throughout in giant Twitter threads because every lawyer who saw it found it the most hilarious thing ever. The best thing about Hambly being blocked out of MtG: Arena was it also served to put him out a whole lot of money because he'd spent a bunch on cards for it.
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Sep 10, 2021 15:42
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Ty Beard, a truly incredible lawyer and one half of the team that brought us Fistful of TOWs, a pretty good modern wargame. God only knows how, having seen his lawyering. I suspect the other creator did most of the work.
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Sep 10, 2021 15:47
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Dawgstar posted:Technically it was Ty Beard, who also acts as Rekeita's estate lawyer and if you think that's suspicious Nick would start a fund for Mignogna without even asking Vic first and getting Beard to prosecute it, well, congratulations on being awake. That said if you followed folks like Greg Doucette who kept people up to date because he is an actual lawyer who does actual cases (there has always been debate about how much law Nick practices regularly) who had found out about the case and commented on it throughout in giant Twitter threads because every lawyer who saw it found it the most hilarious thing ever. For those who want to know more, ALAB has a really good rundown of how weird that whole situation was: https://www.alabseries.com/episodes/episode-4-weeb-wars-pt-1 https://www.alabseries.com/episodes/episode-5-weeb-wars-pt-2
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Sep 10, 2021 16:21
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Toph Bei Fong posted:For those who want to know more, ALAB has a really good rundown of how weird that whole situation was: I knew a guy who like, IRL was really dialed into this and I didn't feel like arguing it since I didn't know the particulars of the VM case(or who the gently caress VM was) but I told him that lawyers are not magic wands you can use to force people to do your bidding and he instantly assumed that meant I was on the other camp whoever that was and started yelling at me for supporting cancel culture. I think a lot of people who were on the Vic side literally thought Mr Beard was gonna walk in, give them the old razzle dazzle, like in the movies, and win the greatest win ever in legal proceedings, because a lot of them don't realize the american legal system isn't really designed around extremely rapid action. poo poo isn't Phoenix Wright were you have three days from court filing to either win or lose.
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Sep 11, 2021 00:06
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TheDiceMustRoll posted:I think a lot of people who were on the Vic side literally thought Mr Beard was gonna walk in, give them the old razzle dazzle, like in the movies, and win the greatest win ever in legal proceedings, because a lot of them don't realize the american legal system isn't really designed around extremely rapid action. poo poo isn't Phoenix Wright were you have three days from court filing to either win or lose. What made it worse (or better) was Nick kept talking it up like that's exactly what would happen. He's a walking example of 'the dumbest person to pass a bar exam is still a lawyer.' Most of the crowd even assumed it was Vic on trial and not the one, you know, bringing the case to sue people and on the stand confessed to doing the things he said he did. It was great.
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Sep 11, 2021 00:13
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