(Thread IKs:
fart simpson)
|
gradenko_2000 posted:I only brought it up because people were horrified to learn that this kitty is being used in "propaganda to legitimize the Russian invasion of the Crimea" as some sort of example of a "milkshake duck" that literally involves an animal my usual stance is that it it always a mistake to let shitlibs learn and use words, but in this case i feel that we should teach them the term "fait accompli"
|
#
?
Sep 9, 2021 09:03
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 25, 2024 19:06 |
|
|
https://twitter.com/martyn_williams/status/1435789812548706310?s=19
|
|
#
?
Sep 9, 2021 10:55
|
|
|
Class: Juche Necromancer
|
|
#
?
Sep 9, 2021 11:04
|
|
|
Pener Kropoopkin posted:Yes. Bullpup designs are overrated because they're not worth the tradeoffs to perform only marginally better for what they're intended. They're way more awkward to handle and shoot than a regular rifle, and the idea that you need a shorter weapon for in-house fighting almost never comes up. If you want a shorter gun to move around doors you could use a carbine. IDC, the p90's perpendicular bullet position with rotating loader clip is cool as hell  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YwmsMffncUc
|
|
#
?
Sep 9, 2021 11:23
|
|
|
crepeface posted:IDC, the p90's perpendicular bullet position with rotating loader clip is cool as hell seems like an unnecessary complication to me
|
|
#
?
Sep 9, 2021 11:46
|
|
|
gradenko_2000 posted:I feel like there's an element of consolidation at play here, similar to the F-35, where instead of having two or three different weapons systems that specialize in a role, bureaucrats insist on a single "multi-role" system that ends up only being mediocre at everything at the same time. So instead of an AR-type rifle (is that the right term?) when you have room to maneuver, and a carbine for when you don't, they keep insisting on developing bullpup designs to try and cover both at the same time. it's the min/max brain on full display imo, and the dump stat is always development and unit costs lmao
|
|
#
?
Sep 9, 2021 12:06
|
|
|
Agrajag posted:seems like an unnecessary complication to me it's not really, other than the fact that they got the feed mechanism so reliable bullpup config means you get more muzzle velocity out of a given length firearm, which is more armor penetration and terminal velocity than accuracy or whatever the gently caress
|
|
#
?
Sep 9, 2021 12:13
|
|
|
crepeface posted:IDC, the p90's perpendicular bullet position with rotating loader clip is cool as hell Look, its that weird gun that show up on very scifi shows. My Eurasia thread and movie thread are collapsing.
|
|
#
?
Sep 9, 2021 12:28
|
|
|
i love that the p90 is thirty years old but it's still the sci-fi/future gun
|
|
#
?
Sep 9, 2021 12:30
|
|
|
crepeface posted:IDC, the p90's perpendicular bullet position with rotating loader clip is cool as hell Forgotten Weapons had a good overview of the P90 pretty recently. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M20PiFxMkrs Atrocious Joe posted:the experience of urban warfare since the 1990s seems to be that most armies prefer to blow up a house rather than try to go into it to fight. Sure, everybody would rather blow up a house than fight over it, but that's not always possible. Every major battle in a city since the 90s has still involved a ton of house to house fighting, and in the case of the US occupations in Iraq & Afghanistan the US military was doing a lot of home invasions.
|
|
#
?
Sep 9, 2021 12:41
|
|
|
To expand a bit on stuff, one reason that hasn't been mentioned here for why bullpups have been adopted by number of places (most famously UK, France, Israel, Austria and China, less famously Australia, South Africa, Croatia, and many others in smaller numbers) is that a lot of modern infantry are often mechanized; they move around in vehicles very frequently, and often where they're needed the most to be the tip of the spear so to speak is in urban locations where you don't want to blow everything up and armored vehicles are at risk. So for modern infantry, at least in theory, much of their most important work is/was expected to be in places where length of the weapon was an important factor for mobility, because the thought was that they'd basically be moving APCs to and from places with relatively tight quarters, so a considerable amount of their use would be in places where short length was useful (in reality this of course isn't always the case); i.e. getting in and out of small vehicles and going through buildings. With regards to barrel length, it's also important to know the context there. Basically all militaries now use small caliber high velocity ammo in their primary infantry rifles/carbines. The advantage of high velocity small caliber ammo is that it's 1) fast, which means its easier and more intuitive to shoot since you don't need to adjust point of impact due to bullet drop at much of any regular combat range, 2) lighter so you can carry more ammo (usually you're not shooting at visible people, more shooting generally at locations you thing people are in the distance, to saturate areas and suppress, and generally more ammo for the same weight is much better), 3) moderately better penetration etc. The big downside of small caliber ammo is that it can potentially have less of terminal ballistic effect, i.e. what it does to the target when it hits. It's a smaller caliber == smaller hole, and possibility of zipping right through a body and not expending its kinetic energy, which means unless you hit a major organ or the like directly, people can potentially take a lot of hits before being debilitated. In civilian guns you can get around this by using hollow point ammo which expands a bit once it hits, but this is banned in militaries since the first Hague Convention. HOWEVER, with small caliber high velocity ammo if the bullet is going fast enough it will yaw and break apart on impact, i.e. essentially having the same effect as a hollow point, and also sending smaller fragments all over. This makes it much much more likely that a hit will do debilitating damage. It just so happens that with a lot of ammo the velocity diff of using a shorter barrel is enough to make this much less likely to happen and to make the terminal ballistics much worse. So it's not just that having a shorter barrel on a rifle means you lose 10-20% of velocity, it's that that loss of velocity happens to be around the point when you might not have a small caliber round break up on impact, and all the sudden you're crossing a certain velocity threshold and maybe losing 50% (making up this number but you get the idea) of your terminal ballistic effect at various ranges. Thus a number countries decided they wanted to have short guns, but really really didn't want to shorten their barrels, and decided that bullpups were the way to go despite a number of downsides. Happy to go over the downsides and details more if anybody is interested but it's getting into the niche stuff of gun design and use.
|
|
#
?
Sep 9, 2021 12:52
|
|
|
Oneiros posted:i love that the p90 is thirty years old but it's still the sci-fi/future gun It's a crying shame the Germans never put into production their mechanical-watch-disguised-as-a-gun; the G11 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QGKcvM2Hh4g Edit: go to 18:05 to look at the insides of it
|
|
#
?
Sep 9, 2021 12:54
|
|
|
LimburgLimbo posted:To expand a bit on stuff, one reason that hasn't been mentioned here for why bullpups have been adopted by number of places (most famously UK, France, Israel, Austria and China, less famously Australia, South Africa, Croatia, and many others in smaller numbers) is that a lot of modern infantry are often mechanized; they move around in vehicles very frequently, and often where they're needed the most to be the tip of the spear so to speak is in urban locations where you don't want to blow everything up and armored vehicles are at risk. So for modern infantry, at least in theory, much of their most important work is/was expected to be in places where length of the weapon was an important factor for mobility, because the thought was that they'd basically be moving APCs to and from places with relatively tight quarters, so a considerable amount of their use would be in places where short length was useful (in reality this of course isn't always the case); i.e. getting in and out of small vehicles and going through buildings. didn't read
|
|
#
?
Sep 9, 2021 12:56
|
|
|
The APC stuff makes sense I guess. So with APCs you just added a cramped quarters situation to every battlefield lol.
|
|
#
?
Sep 9, 2021 13:32
|
|
|
BrutalistMcDonalds posted:i think the uniform did blend reasonably well in iraq urban terrain, but that's the only place it works other than 70s couches Look who's repainting all their captured equipment to the right camo colors: https://twitter.com/Natsecjeff/status/1435940755676311559?s=19
|
|
#
?
Sep 9, 2021 13:36
|
|
|
LimburgLimbo posted:a lot of modern infantry are often mechanized; they move around in vehicles very frequently, and often where they're needed the most to be the tip of the spear so to speak is in urban locations where you don't want to blow everything up and armored vehicles are at risk. So for modern infantry, at least in theory, much of their most important work is/was expected to be in places where length of the weapon was an important factor for mobility, because the thought was that they'd basically be moving APCs to and from places with relatively tight quarters, so a considerable amount of their use would be in places where short length was useful (in reality this of course isn't always the case); i.e. getting in and out of small vehicles and going through buildings. huh I hadn't considered this but it makes sense
|
|
#
?
Sep 9, 2021 13:37
|
|
|
gradenko_2000 posted:I only brought it up because people were horrified to learn that this kitty is being used in "propaganda to legitimize the Russian invasion of the Crimea" as some sort of example of a "milkshake duck" that literally involves an animal
|
|
#
?
Sep 9, 2021 13:46
|
|
|
IIRC, Afghanistan actually has extremely varied terrain and climate, despite the stereotype that it's all rocky desert. There's jungles more like Vietnam and probably snow somewhere.
|
|
#
?
Sep 9, 2021 14:05
|
|
|
gradenko_2000 posted:huh I hadn't considered this but it makes sense A folding stock solves this for rifles that aren't OG AR-15 pattern rifles. There are enough disadvantages and the minor advantages in an infantry rifle make it kind of a wash. The barrel length and weight thing becomes more of an issue once you get to machine guns and sniper rifles and larger caliber rounds (not just muzzle energy but also heat dissipation and barrel wear and tear) and the ergonomics and ambidexterity less so. Machine guns are more important on the battlefield than rifles and often must also come in and out of vehicles so length is even more of a factor, but any machine gun designed for sustained fire isn't going to be firing from magazines and it's difficult to make a 200 round box fit in a bullpup configuration so there's only a narrow range of applications. That being said magazine fed "RPK" style support weapons are coming back and even the USMC has adopted one. See also the US Army's NGSW. The British army also retains the magazine fed L86 LSW in addition to belt fed Minimis at the squad level. The Chinese also tried to do a thing in that from the late 90s they essentially phased out the 7.62mm medium machine gun from regular front line service and field only 5.8mm rifles and light machine guns and a 12.7mm heavy machine gun. The 5.8mm is a slightly more powerful round than 5.56mm in its regular configuration and they use a more powerful version for sniper files and machine guns, so a bigger, heavier barrel light machine gun in a bullpup configuration may have made more sense if it also shares parts with the rifle. Whatever the merits of that approach it looks like they're reversing course and going back to more conventional rifles and possibly also some kind of .30 machine gun.
|
|
#
?
Sep 9, 2021 14:34
|
|
|
Ghost Leviathan posted:Kinda funny that people are desperately waiting for China to explode because of violating some vague idea of the rules that capitalist countries make up as an excuse to not do anything what do you mean all of the "ghost cities" now have residents? planning for the future isn't profitable! i'm pretty sure making a plan violates the laws of capital dynamics
|
|
#
?
Sep 9, 2021 14:41
|
|
|
Throatwarbler posted:A folding stock solves this for rifles that aren't OG AR-15 pattern rifles. There are enough disadvantages and the minor advantages in an infantry rifle make it kind of a wash. Folding stocks can to an extent fix the length issues but only when you're using in a non-firing configuration, so it helps with de-assing from vehicles and such but it isn't so good for urban combat and room clearing. Also worth keeping in mind that all the modern bullpup rifles we see were really tested and developed in the 70s and 80s or earlier and I think a combination of folding stocks basically needing to be metal (given the polymer technology of the time) which added weight, and another potential breakage point, along with folding stocks usually having terrible cheekweld, made people shy away from widespread adoption. Given context/timeframe a bullpup made/makes sense to an extent but in time I wouldn't be surprised if most militaries moved away from them. If the US fully adopts partially polymer cartridges and other nations follow suit (i.e. probably the US strongarms NATO countries into doing what they want) then I wouldn't be surprised if the next gen saw much fewer bullpup guns. Throatwarbler posted:The barrel length and weight thing becomes more of an issue once you get to machine guns and sniper rifles and larger caliber rounds (not just muzzle energy but also heat dissipation and barrel wear and tear) and the ergonomics and ambidexterity less so. Machine guns are more important on the battlefield than rifles and often must also come in and out of vehicles so length is even more of a factor, but any machine gun designed for sustained fire isn't going to be firing from magazines and it's difficult to make a 200 round box fit in a bullpup configuration so there's only a narrow range of applications. That being said magazine fed "RPK" style support weapons are coming back and even the USMC has adopted one. See also the US Army's NGSW. The British army also retains the magazine fed L86 LSW in addition to belt fed Minimis at the squad level. Worth noting the USMC is not just adopting an RPK-like gun, the M27, but is apparently going to do away with its squad automatics entirely (and potentially just giving everyone an M27 since it's really just a nicer, more accurate M4). Apparently basically on the back of feedback that on patrol guys would regularly just leave their M249s in their Humvees so they didn't have to deal with the weight and bulk. It makes sense in counter-insurgency scenarios where you're generally not suppressing other squads of troops in order to maneuver and attack, and if you come across and heavy combat you're more likely avoiding close contact and just call in air support. Wouldn't be surprised if they either reversed on that decision at some point (likely if/when they adopt polymer cased ammo), because as you say the MG is a pretty drat important tool, or if it bit them in the rear end the moment they went up against modern well equipped opposition. LimburgLimbo has issued a correction as of 15:52 on Sep 9, 2021 |
|
#
?
Sep 9, 2021 15:29
|
|
|
this gunchat is loving great and myself as a total layman really appreciate this incredible s+ tier posting, thank you very much
|
|
#
?
Sep 9, 2021 15:35
|
|
|
At least unpractical gun design chat is better than fear mongering mccarthy chat.
|
|
#
?
Sep 9, 2021 15:42
|
|
|
Rutibex posted:what do you mean all of the "ghost cities" now have residents? planning for the future isn't profitable! i'm pretty sure making a plan violates the laws of capital dynamics personally, the most loving annoying and stupid contradiction of capitalism has to be this one
|
|
#
?
Sep 9, 2021 15:50
|
|
|
Agrajag posted:seems like an unnecessary complication to me you get to have clips that carry a lot more ammo that not sticking out of your gun like a teen's unwanted erection that trips you up when you're trying to do a cool slide down a stair bannister while firing off rounds
|
|
#
?
Sep 9, 2021 15:59
|
|
|
helical mags are cooler though
|
|
#
?
Sep 9, 2021 16:18
|
|
|
dead gay comedy forums posted:this gunchat is loving great and myself as a total layman really appreciate this incredible s+ tier posting, thank you very much just lol if you post in CSPAM and want to disarm the workers and surrender arms and ammunition
|
|
#
?
Sep 9, 2021 16:26
|
|
|
gradenko_2000 posted:https://twitter.com/ansicht_auge/status/1157446670696607745?s=19 I was still on the fence about the Crimean takeover after learning the vast vast majority of people there supported it, but now I’m behind it 100%!
|
|
#
?
Sep 9, 2021 16:31
|
|
|
crepeface posted:you get to have clips that carry a lot more ammo that not sticking out of your gun like a teen's unwanted erection that trips you up when you're trying to do a cool slide down a stair bannister while firing off rounds I have never touched a machine gun (only shot some handgun with cousin) but doesn't this just make the handling of the gun heavier? When hiking, you want to carrier the heavy and least used items around the center core of your body because its the most energy efficient way to carry weight.
|
|
#
?
Sep 9, 2021 16:32
|
|
|
stephenthinkpad posted:I have never touched a machine gun (only shot some handgun with cousin) but doesn't this just make the handling of the gun heavier? When hiking, you want to carrier the heavy and least used items around the center core of your body because its the most energy efficient way to carry weight. See, I was looking at that rear magazine design and my immediate thought is to how it would affect the balance of the weapon.
|
|
#
?
Sep 9, 2021 16:42
|
|
|
https://twitter.com/NobodymrRobert/status/1435805951907434503 what a bunch of jerks because we would never do that right  ... because we would never do that right 
|
|
#
?
Sep 9, 2021 17:23
|
|
|
https://twitter.com/softwarnet/status/1435550667393810439
|
|
#
?
Sep 9, 2021 17:28
|
|
|
The US navy would give their final warning before they fired huge shells into their own deck like https://twitter.com/dril/status/873264183281889281?s=19
|
|
#
?
Sep 9, 2021 17:29
|
|
|
Some Guy TT posted:https://twitter.com/NobodymrRobert/status/1435805951907434503 US ships used to visit Hong Kong regularly after all 
|
|
#
?
Sep 9, 2021 17:29
|
|
|
in other boating news https://twitter.com/taiwandefense/status/1435985886416719887
|
|
#
?
Sep 9, 2021 17:32
|
|
|
Shabu is the Japanese slang for methamphetamines btw, interesting that it's used by the Philippines. Have to kind of guess that it's probably because they Yakuza would get it made in the Philippines for import maybe, and there was that influence on the slang.
|
|
#
?
Sep 9, 2021 17:32
|
|
|
Nothing made in America anymore smdh
|
|
#
?
Sep 9, 2021 17:32
|
|
|
LimburgLimbo posted:just lol if you post in CSPAM and want to disarm the workers and surrender arms and ammunition Go read the canpol thread. Shitload o closet libs.
|
|
#
?
Sep 9, 2021 17:33
|
|
|
now if it were AMERICAN made meth this would never have happened
|
|
#
?
Sep 9, 2021 17:33
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 25, 2024 19:06 |
|
|
Some Guy TT posted:in other boating news that'll look cool on the bottom of the sea
|
|
#
?
Sep 9, 2021 17:40
|
|
