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Eric Cantonese
Dec 21, 2004

You should hear my accent.
Why would Bolsonaro supporters storm the Chinese embassy? Covid conspiracy theorist thinking?

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Negostrike
Aug 15, 2015


Because child-eating commies :tinfoil:

Elias_Maluco
Aug 23, 2007
I need to sleep

Eric Cantonese posted:

Why would Bolsonaro supporters storm the Chinese embassy? Covid conspiracy theorist thinking?

China hate is a big part of bolsonarismo now (another thing they imported from trump supporters)

Lawman 0
Aug 17, 2010


That's crazy.

Vincent Van Goatse
Nov 8, 2006

Enjoy every sandwich.

Smellrose
Stay safe Brazilian goons.

punk rebel ecks
Dec 11, 2010

A shitty post? This calls for a dance of deduction.

Why do both of these guys have their pants WAY too low. I'm genuinely surprised that I don't see any pubic hair.

SlothfulCobra
Mar 27, 2011

You don't march around shirtless with a ridiculous hat and covered in body paint if you don't wanna show off your body.

Negostrike
Aug 15, 2015


Vincent Van Goatse posted:

Stay safe Brazilian goons.

Sorry they set me on fire and I'm also being stabbed while somehow still being able to post. It happens.

Grouchio
Aug 31, 2014

Florestan: Bolsonaro comes out smaller and more worried this September 7th (translated article)

quote:

In an interview with TV 247, journalist Florestan Fernandes stated that the acts called by Jair Bolsonaro on September 7th did not meet his expectations and he leaves smaller and more worried. “The movement he expected from a crowd did not materialize in Brasília or in other parts of the country. Many people took to the streets, but it was his bubble, analyzed Florestan,

And he adds: "I think he stretched the rope because he's worried about his and his family's future, because the fence is closed with regard to wrongdoings when he was a parliamentarian and he was the one who took his children to parliament."

For the journalist, Bolsonaro is pulling the rope "to stick his neck and today he has put a good part of his neck." “The military is melting along with it. Today's act shows that. He says he is defending democracy, but the banners call for military intervention. He says he defends the four lines of the Constitution, but the banners call for the arrest of members of the Supreme Court or the closure of the Supreme Court,” he stressed.

Coup failing already.

DarkCrawler
Apr 6, 2009

by vyelkin
Hope he and his poo poo family burns.

America Inc.
Nov 22, 2013

I plan to live forever, of course, but barring that I'd settle for a couple thousand years. Even 500 would be pretty nice.
Something I like about Mexico is that the culture of its indigenous peoples has persisted in a way that didn't happen in the US and Canada. In the latter two countries Native Americans have been effectively made invisible after hundreds of years of genocide. Native peoples have been corraled into reservations in remote parts of the country, and relegated to a small minority with minimal marks on the broader culture.

In Mexico, the influence of the Aztecs, Maya, and the many other indigenous groups is omnipresent: in the words used, the cuisine, the genetic makeup, and even in the religion.

For example, La Virgen de Guadalupe may be a Catholic syncretism of the Spanish Virgen de Extremadura with Tonantzin. People do pilgrimages to santuarios for saints or syncretic incarnations of Jesus or the Virgin Mary some of which took characteristics of indigenous gods. This kind of syncretism in the US is virtually non-existent.

And this indigenous heritage is celebrated and taken as something of pride.

This isn't to negate the oppression that indigenous groups faced or still face in Mexico, and with all that it's still a stark contrast to the United States.

E: I suppose this kind of syncretism can be seen across Latin America among peoples of indigenous and black heritage: santería and voodoo in the Caribbean, candomblé and a whole bunch of other religions in Brazil. We could even go back to the syncretism with pagan Roman rituals like Christmas with Saturnalia. Generally Spain and other Catholic countries sought to convert Native peoples over exterminating them, which sometimes meant bridging existing beliefs with Christianity and Western culture.

America Inc. fucked around with this message at 06:53 on Sep 11, 2021

punk rebel ecks
Dec 11, 2010

A shitty post? This calls for a dance of deduction.

no hay camino posted:

Something I like about Mexico is that the culture of its indigenous peoples has persisted in a way that didn't happen in the US and Canada.

You have to understand that there were way way WAY more indigenous people living in Mexico. The amount of natives in Mexico outnumbered the natives in America and Canada more than 4 to 1. And that's America and Canada COMBINED. Therefore a lot more people were left after the waves of pandemics.

America and Canada were like the Siberia of the "New World" in comparison.

People who define themselves as indigenous or mestizo of the original native population make a plurality of Mexico's population. Meanwhile Native Americans aren't even 1% of the United States population.

punk rebel ecks fucked around with this message at 08:31 on Sep 11, 2021

Fuschia tude
Dec 26, 2004

THUNDERDOME LOSER 2019

punk rebel ecks posted:

You have to understand that there were way way WAY more indigenous people living in Mexico. The amount of natives in Mexico outnumbered the natives in America and Canada more than 4 to 1. And that's America and Canada COMBINED. Therefore a lot more people were left after the waves of pandemics.

America and Canada were like the Siberia of the "New World" in comparison.

Why is that, anyway? How did the tropics and South America end up so much more densely settled than the original populations in the north?

Demiurge4
Aug 10, 2011

Fuschia tude posted:

Why is that, anyway? How did the tropics and South America end up so much more densely settled than the original populations in the north?

Lack of harsh winters? It’s not all jungles.

Fuschia tude
Dec 26, 2004

THUNDERDOME LOSER 2019

Demiurge4 posted:

Lack of harsh winters? It’s not all jungles.

SA has winters :colbert:

Gripweed
Nov 8, 2018

ASK ME ABOUT MY
UNITED STATES MARINES
FUNKO POPS COLLECTION



Fuschia tude posted:

Why is that, anyway? How did the tropics and South America end up so much more densely settled than the original populations in the north?

I bet that a big factor is that the North American midwest is no fun without horses. So if you come in through Alaska and head south down the Pacific Coast, there's good land there on the coast but you can't go for east before you hit the Great American Desert. So you keep going south until you hit Mexico and then the desert finally lets up and hot drat, you've got great places to live from sea to sea

Lawman 0
Aug 17, 2010

Fuschia tude posted:

Why is that, anyway? How did the tropics and South America end up so much more densely settled than the original populations in the north?

They were full fledged high intensity agriculture civilizations with every incentive (no horses, no pastoral animals other than Llamas) to make the people number go up. Also corn and potatoes with additional supplement crops like quinoa and amaranth plus things like peppers are monstrously efficient source of calories. Though you could certainly still mess things up and fall apart like the Mayans did. Otoh it's my opinion that the Inca had probably one the best agricultural and food distribution systems devised by humanity up to that point.

punk rebel ecks
Dec 11, 2010

A shitty post? This calls for a dance of deduction.
I hope I don't seem too ignorant by asking this, but how "advanced" were the Inca and the Aztecs when the Spaniards came? Like were they comparable to say the Romans technologically?

shades of blue
Sep 27, 2012

no hay camino posted:

And this indigenous heritage is celebrated and taken as something of pride.

This is mostly a semi-modern thing that was invented in order to avert civil unrest and so on. It is not wholly or even mostly incorrect to think of Mestizo identity as being part of the Mexican state's effort to crush out minorities to the best of it's ability following the Mexican Revolution.

Fuschia tude posted:

Why is that, anyway? How did the tropics and South America end up so much more densely settled than the original populations in the north?

Afaik, and this is mostly speculation because all of this happened centuries ago, the Little Ice Age was much more severe of a problem in northern America. It is probably the case that North America did at one point have relatively densely populated territories, they just collapsed in the face of the Little Ice Age and then were completely crushed by disease. Also afaik a similar collapse was observed in Southern America with whatever culture created terra preta. We have, in that situation, literally no records or evidence whatsoever except for the soil because they would have built everything out of wood.

punk rebel ecks posted:

I hope I don't seem too ignorant by asking this, but how "advanced" were the Inca and the Aztecs when the Spaniards came? Like were they comparable to say the Romans technologically?

I'm not sure that this is really a sensible way to think of the world given that different societies develop different technologies for different reasons and this is very heterogenous. The Inca had a fairly sophisticated psuedo-bureaucratic system but didn't have iron working. It's just not a question that really makes sense imo.

SlothfulCobra
Mar 27, 2011

Yeah, some technologies that the old world developed, they just didn't, and there were a couple technologies that the new world did that the old world just didn't. I guess the one that people cite most is the Aztec calendar, but the Incans had freeze-drying. There's also nixtamalization, but that wasn't really relevant in Europe until they brought corn over and started dying of pellagra. Knapping was also a lost technology in Europe, but still widely used in the new world to make wicked sharp rocks.

There's sort of a classical way that people used to view new world societies as being in like some kind of more "primitive state of development" like there's a bunch of preset types of societies that you can only go linearly from one to another, but that's an archaic way of thinking. I think the biggest difference is just that the old world had more people who were more connected across more land and had access to more things across Europe, Africa, and Asia than the new world did.

Gripweed posted:

I bet that a big factor is that the North American midwest is no fun without horses. So if you come in through Alaska and head south down the Pacific Coast, there's good land there on the coast but you can't go for east before you hit the Great American Desert. So you keep going south until you hit Mexico and then the desert finally lets up and hot drat, you've got great places to live from sea to sea

The midwest is less fun, but also can't really host that much in the way of agriculture without some fairly advanced agricultural techniques. Most human societies throughout history really like sticking around coasts and rivers.

I think there's also an aspect of European settlement being harder around the tropics with all sorts of tropical diseases that locals would be resistant to, but colonists wouldn't be, and for whatever reason, England's population exploded at a way higher rate than Spain and much of the rest of Europe, so the English were colonizing a smaller amount of land with a larger amount of people.

There was a map in the maps thread recently that might also be relevant.

shades of blue
Sep 27, 2012
We also don't really know what the population of North America was, in much the same way that we don't really know what the population in and around the Amazon was. Everything that people say is just speculation or assumption or projection but all of this is incredibly approximate.

Kal-L
Jan 18, 2005

Heh... Spider-man... Web searches... That's funny. I should've trademarked that one. Could've made a mint.

punk rebel ecks posted:

I hope I don't seem too ignorant by asking this, but how "advanced" were the Inca and the Aztecs when the Spaniards came? Like were they comparable to say the Romans technologically?

You should give a look over at Bernal Diaz del Castillo's work: The True History of the Conquest of New Spain. If you want something more general and fictional, but with lots of research, Gary Jenning's Aztec is a good novel too.


Bernal Diaz del Castillo posted:

After having examined and considered all that we had seen we turned to look at the great market place and the crowds of people that were in it, some buying and others selling, so that the murmur and hum of their voices and words that they used could be heard more than a league off. Some of the soldiers among us who had been in many parts of the world, in Constantinople, and all over Italy, and in Rome, said that they had never beheld so large a market place and so full of people, and so well regulated and arranged.

That's from when the Spanish arrived at Tenochtitlan for the first time. And you know in what high regard Catholics had Rome at that time.

Ghost of Mussolini
Jun 26, 2011

no hay camino posted:

I don't know about news media but in regards to video essays about Latin America I can't recommend BadEmpanada enough.
I'm not going to comment on Bad Empanada's Venezuela coverage, I'm not an expert on Venezuela. What I can tell you is that his coverage of Argentina, Chile, and Uruguay is awful. BadEmpanada is an Australian who moved to Argentina and decided to start explaining how politics work here as if he was a local. He doesn't even have a full grasp of Spanish. His coverage of politics here is simplistic, uninformed, and incredibly biased towards the contemporary form of Peronism. I am in no way pro-Guaido and co., and I doubt BadEmpanada is, but I cannot suppose that his analysis of anywhere else is better than the analysis of the place in which he now lives.

I don't mean to single out your post specifically, I've seen him recommended before. His content seems accessible but its full of pitfalls. At that level its better just to read wikipedia (likely what BadEmpanada is doing himself).

Spice World War II
Jul 12, 2004

Ghost of Mussolini posted:

I'm not going to comment on Bad Empanada's Venezuela coverage, I'm not an expert on Venezuela. What I can tell you is that his coverage of Argentina, Chile, and Uruguay is awful. BadEmpanada is an Australian who moved to Argentina and decided to start explaining how politics work here as if he was a local. He doesn't even have a full grasp of Spanish. His coverage of politics here is simplistic, uninformed, and incredibly biased towards the contemporary form of Peronism. I am in no way pro-Guaido and co., and I doubt BadEmpanada is, but I cannot suppose that his analysis of anywhere else is better than the analysis of the place in which he now lives.

I don't mean to single out your post specifically, I've seen him recommended before. His content seems accessible but its full of pitfalls. At that level its better just to read wikipedia (likely what BadEmpanada is doing himself).

LOL "Australien who doesn't even have a full grasp of Spanish" straight out of the angry twitter bubble

Ghost of Mussolini
Jun 26, 2011

Spice World War II posted:

LOL "Australien who doesn't even have a full grasp of Spanish" straight out of the angry twitter bubble
Let me know if you have any other hot takes on how BadEmpanada is correct to continuously run English-language cover for the most reactionary institution in Argentine politics

Spice World War II
Jul 12, 2004

Ghost of Mussolini posted:

Let me know if you have any other hot takes on how BadEmpanada is correct to continuously run English-language cover for the most reactionary institution in Argentine politics

Here's the thing: If you watch a bunch of his stuff, especially some of his live clips, you can clearly see that he speaks Spanish just fine. He also was always open about having immigrated to Argentina from Australia, as well as that his spanish skills were worse when he first moved to Argentina (before his youtube "career").

That didn't stop "Australian who doesn't even have a full grasp of Spanish" becoming the favourite attack line parroted by people who are big vaush/visualpolitik/grayzone fans/coup apologists/... whoever is currently mad in his comments anyway, either because they don't know any better or even though they do know better, and it's such an easy way to just completely discount all the content without having to engage with any argument.

As you posted with an air of authority about how awful his coverage on Argentina, Chile and Uruguay is (personally I haven't heard him talking about Uruguay at all, but I've seen maybe 20% of his content, tops), I assume you speak spanish and have ties to the region. I'm sorry, but I've yet to interact with anyone of your background who issued a blanket condemnation of Empanada's videos and added that "australian" line who was arguing in good faith.

i say swears online
Mar 4, 2005

well that post didn't inspire much confidence

America Inc.
Nov 22, 2013

I plan to live forever, of course, but barring that I'd settle for a couple thousand years. Even 500 would be pretty nice.

Ghost of Mussolini posted:

Let me know if you have any other hot takes on how BadEmpanada is correct to continuously run English-language cover for the most reactionary institution in Argentine politics

Could you expand on that? It seems to me that the problem with peronismo is that it means essentially nothing at this point after Menem. Take back Las Malvinas?

Ghost of Mussolini
Jun 26, 2011

Spice World War II posted:

Here's the thing: If you watch a bunch of his stuff, especially some of his live clips, you can clearly see that he speaks Spanish just fine. He also was always open about having immigrated to Argentina from Australia, as well as that his spanish skills were worse when he first moved to Argentina (before his youtube "career").

That didn't stop "Australian who doesn't even have a full grasp of Spanish" becoming the favourite attack line parroted by people who are big vaush/visualpolitik/grayzone fans/coup apologists/... whoever is currently mad in his comments anyway, either because they don't know any better or even though they do know better, and it's such an easy way to just completely discount all the content without having to engage with any argument.

As you posted with an air of authority about how awful his coverage on Argentina, Chile and Uruguay is (personally I haven't heard him talking about Uruguay at all, but I've seen maybe 20% of his content, tops), I assume you speak spanish and have ties to the region. I'm sorry, but I've yet to interact with anyone of your background who issued a blanket condemnation of Empanada's videos and added that "australian" line who was arguing in good faith.
I don't watch those other channels you mentioned so I am not at all aware of that being a common attack deployed against him. I said he's Australian because that is where he is from. His Spanish may have improved, and I admit that I have not seen anything recent by him. In his early content it was not that good, although that did not stop him flaunting it as if it gave him more authority on the subject. His videos on Peronism and the evolution of Argentina show an only cursory analysis of the issue and he's 100% fallen into the false progressive narratives put forward by the Peronists. In Argentina these people are called "hippies con OSDE", OSDE being a rather expensive medical insurance scheme, i.e. they're upper/middle-upper class progressives who can afford to repeat progressive platitudes and do nothing further. His videos are overviews/summaries of very complex topics in which he's never penetrating the top level. He made a one hour video on "neoliberalism", and he dismissed Menemism in one sentence, and didn't even speak about the Concertación (you're making a video about neoliberalism on a Latin America politics channel and don't speak about the 90s in Chile, Argentina, or Brasil?).

I'm not saying that everything that Badempanada says is wrong. At first glance, he seems to be saying the right things. For example, he rightly called the operation against Evo a coup, because that is what it was. However, any time he goes into detail on Argentina, he is wrong about pretty much everything. I went and looked at his channel, he put up a 1hr video on Fujimori. I'm sure he says that Fujimori was a bad dude, but I'm willing to bet that someone with deeper knowledge about Peruvian political history, especially the political history of the Peruvian popular and armed struggle, would find that Badempanada's analysis past saying "Fujimori bad" is off the mark.

I am fully sincere when I say that I think that Badempanada has never earnestly spoken to a poor person or gone to a communal/mutual-aid association or anything of the sort.

no hay camino posted:

Could you expand on that? It seems to me that the problem with peronismo is that it means essentially nothing at this point after Menem. Take back Las Malvinas?
Peronism is working entirely as intended. Menem was a great Peronist in the 90s, and so is Cristina Kirchner right now.

The aim of Peronism is the same as in 1943 when Perón became Secretary of Work and Social Security: preempt any form of worker's organization. Perón hollowed out the institutions of the state to create a parallel quasi-state structure that would contain popular movements. By co-opting the power of the state, Perón was able to establish trade unions that responded to him personally, as he was the one assigning money and resources. These benefits did not go to workers, but to the organizations that were loyal to him. Workers who did not adhere to Peronist organizations were persecuted, socialists and communists were jailed, forced into exile (external or internal, it was very common to move them to the interior of the country), or even in many cases killed. The leadership cliques of these trade unions are extremely corrupt, and enjoy great levels of wealth. On the other hand, working-class people are given short-term benefits that are conditional to continued Peronist political control of the state. For example, minimum wages that are set by decree instead of by law to a formula that would contemplate other issues like inflation or economic growth. It is a half-implemented corporativist system that doesn't even fully commit to straight fascism, because whoever finds themselves as the head of Peronists knows that if the system became too formalized it could itself turn into a threat to their leadership.

When Menem sold off half of the state and enacted a totally derisory monetary policy in the 90s, it was done to provide people with the illusion of economic growth and the attainment of wealth. It lasted for a few years and then exploded, sending millions into poverty. Every single time that the Peronists have taken power in Argentina since 1943, the country has always emerged with more poor and weaker institutions than before. The current government is Peronist, and a large segment of the opposition is either self-identified as Peronist or in alliance with self-identified Peronist forces. Since 1989, intercine warfare among Peronist factions has been more important in determining who will be President than the actual election day.

Peronism is the most effective form of mass/class repression that Argentina has ever seen. It is more efficient than "European-style" social democracy, more efficient than the traditional landed class, more efficient than the church, and more efficient than non-Peronist military elite rule.

Mr. Nemo
Feb 4, 2016

I wish I had a sister like my big strong Daddy :(
So how was it tonight in Milei's bunker Ghost?

punk rebel ecks
Dec 11, 2010

A shitty post? This calls for a dance of deduction.
I was a fan of Bad Empanda until I commented on one of his videos and he basically said that since I'm an American my opinion doesn't matter.

Ghost of Mussolini
Jun 26, 2011

Mr. Nemo posted:

So how was it tonight in Milei's bunker Ghost?
Brilliant reply. I don't like a low-effort youtuber so I must be a libertarian

GimmickMan
Dec 27, 2011

Ghost of Mussolini posted:

Brilliant reply. I don't like a low-effort youtuber so I must be a libertarian

Perhaps take a moment to consider why someone would think that your post would make them think that? Peronism is not going to win any "most left-wing government party" contests any time soon, but when you say it is "the most reactionary institution in Argentine politics" it's hard to take you seriously. I assume from your handle that you're not posting in bad faith, but what you said is just plain not true.

Peronism did not genocide the indigenous peoples to give their lands to their friends. Peronism did not wage a civil war to ensure all international trade had to go through the port of Buenos Aires, ensuring the city would be rich at the expense of the provinces. Peronism did not systematically kidnap, torture and murder thirty thousand civilians most prominently important union leaders, journalists and artists speaking against them. The list goes on, because this country has an incredibly toxic history of the people in power being subservient to foreign governments from the day the "Cabildo open to the people" consisted of rich douches arguing whether our national language should be French or English in the future, rather than Spanish or god forbid any of the languages spoken by the indigenous peoples.

Most of the old money families responsible for these things are known Antiperonists today, like the Bullrich, Martinez de Hoz and Mitre dynasties, because for all of its ills Peronism is at least ostensibly and in theory a nationalist and protectivist party while these people have been sellout liberals for the past two hundred years. Peronism often fails at being nationalist and protectivist, but in theory it stands for those things, which is why the US have been supporting Antiperonist candidates ever since. And before Peronism was a thing it was Great Britain supporting the same people to the same ends.

edit: i said great britain supported antiperonism in the 1800's, which, lol. fixed.

GimmickMan fucked around with this message at 14:39 on Sep 13, 2021

Ghost of Mussolini
Jun 26, 2011

GimmickMan posted:

Perhaps take a moment to consider why someone would think that your post would make them think that? Peronism is not going to win any "most left-wing government party" contests any time soon, but when you say it is "the most reactionary institution in Argentine politics" it's hard to take you seriously. I assume from your handle that you're not posting in bad faith, but what you said is just plain not true.
I stand by my statement, in terms of applying reactionary policies and actions, the Peronists are far and away the most efficient political force in the history of Argentina. Indeed, its exactly why they're so efficient that they do not have to go around machine-gunning people, because they have totally neutered any form of non-elite political organization or conception of class consciousness.

GimmickMan posted:

Peronism did not genocide the indigenous peoples to give their lands to their friends.Peronism did not wage a civil war to ensure all international trade had to go through the port of Buenos Aires, ensuring the city would be rich at the expense of the provinces. Peronism did not systematically kidnap, torture and murder thirty thousand civilians most prominently important union leaders, journalists and artists speaking against them. The list goes on, because this country has an incredibly toxic history of the people in power being subservient to foreign governments from the day the "Cabildo open to the people" consisted of rich douches arguing whether our national language should be French or English in the future, rather than Spanish or god forbid any of the languages spoken by the indigenous peoples.
Perón wasn't around for the conquest of the desert and other such incidents, coming into power much too late to partake in those actions. Nevertheless, if Perón had been an army officer in the 1870s, 80s, I have no doubt that he would have done the same thing Roca and company did. What has Peronism done for peoples of non-European descent? Even after decades of Peronist governments, non-Europeans are still disproportionately poor, less educated, less able to access healthcare, etc. If they wanted, the current Peronist government could lift extremely regressive taxes that greatly affect poor communities tomorrow, and yet they don't. The majority of non-Europeans live in serious poverty, in provinces that are strongly controlled by Peronist administrations. In terms of positions of power, Peronist governments are as representative of non-Europeans as the military governments, or the Radical-into-Cambiemos governments. Cristina's ching-chong-accent routine or Alberto's commentary on nautical transport should make it clear what these people really think of the non-Europeans of this country.

Perón was also not around to fight any wars regarding the port of Buenos Aires, but have they also done anything to reverse that trend? No, they have not. Commercial, capital, and political power concentration to Buenos Aires has continued through every Peronist administration. Perón himself exchanged war debt for all the British railways, and had control over essentially all industry. Did he change anything? No. During the Menemist administration, Menem actually even went backwards and shut down a lot of the infrastructure going to the interior. During the Duhalde, Kirchernirst, and now Kirchnerist-Albert administrations investment has continued to be focused on Buenos Aires. The railways continue to lack investment, the Paraná (which should be a major commercial capital-accumulation waterway) isn't even dredged. The Kirchners have never missed an opportunity to block any infrastructure which may threaten the trucker's unions. the Kirchners have run their entire national-level careers on setting up projects and then not actually following through with them. Investments in electricity generation are likewise near non-existent. We have the domestic capacity to build nuclear power plants and the great success of the Peronist administration was to set up a port for liquid-natural-gas container ships, an extremely expensive, inefficient, and contaminating form of power generation. Have the Peronists done anything to reverse the fracking operations in Vaca Muerta?

The Peronists are no strangers to extra-judicial executions. During the first Peronist administration political repression, including murder, was continuously and consistently deployed against left-wing organizations. Its worth noting that the same level of repression was not used against Peronist opposition from the traditional right. During the Peronist return, they waged a full armed campaign in the north and simultaneously established the Triple-A to carry out repression in urban centres. The AAA was established on the direct order of Perón. Many of those killed were union members, journalists, and artists. Once the 1976 coup happened, some AAA members happily carried on their jobs, and others went to Spain, to keep on doing the exact same thing for the Francoist regime. A lot of AAA actions were carried out with the support of the SIDE, and that relationship only became stronger following the 76 coup.

Peronists have absolutely no problem with dealing with foreign interests as long as they are also in on the take. Rather than investing in the country, Perón traded away most of the war credit accumulated on British debt for shiny bullshit (soon to be obsolete weapons and an aged railway network). During his second presidency, Perón happily struck deals with major US companies, including selling off vast YPF drilling rights to Standard Oil. Menem sold off basically half of the state, while the Kirchners have done little to reverse any of it. At the same time, all have been more than happy to take on large amounts of debt, further beholding the Argentine state to foreign interests (and the fact that other administrations also do it doesn't excuse them).

GimmickMan posted:

Most of the old money families responsible for these things are known Antiperonists today, like the Bullrich, Martinez de Hoz and Mitre dynasties, because for all of its ills Peronism is at least ostensibly and in theory a nationalist and protectivist party while these people have been sellout liberals for the past two hundred years. Peronism often fails at being nationalist and protectivist, but in theory it stands for those things, which is why Great Britain and the US have been supporting Antiperonist candidates ever since.
Peronism is not a nationalist party past meaningless bullshit platitudes like putting a map of the Malvinas on the 50-peso bill. I don't see anything nationalist in looting the state for all its worth while the country continues to sink.

Please don't interpret my comments as somehow being approval of the next obvious alternative, Cambiemos. Cambiemos was massively hurtful to the country, and any future potential Cambiemos administration would be just as bad as any Kirchnerist one. I want to be clear that in no way am I going to support anyone like Macri (or Larreta, or Bullrich, or whoever they put up in 2023).

America Inc.
Nov 22, 2013

I plan to live forever, of course, but barring that I'd settle for a couple thousand years. Even 500 would be pretty nice.

Ghost of Mussolini posted:

Perón was also not around to fight any wars regarding the port of Buenos Aires, but have they also done anything to reverse that trend? No, they have not. Commercial, capital, and political power concentration to Buenos Aires has continued through every Peronist administration.

It seems to me that Latin American countries have a general problem with their economic power being concentrated in a few capital cities, and this goes back to colonial times when the port cities acted as waypoints with Spain to extract wealth from the interior. I think Galeano talks about that in Las Venas Abiertas de América Latina.

Not to excuse failures on the part of Peronistas to resolve that problem, but it's definitely not just an Argentina thing. It doesn't help that it's a compounding problem, as people leave their home provinces for the cities causing labor and brain drain.

Reading a little bit of Argentinian reddit forums there appears to be a segment of Argentinos that despise conurbanos that they see as supposedly haraganes sucking up benefits earned with their money. These people are also usually anti-Peronistas...

America Inc. fucked around with this message at 00:58 on Sep 14, 2021

America Inc.
Nov 22, 2013

I plan to live forever, of course, but barring that I'd settle for a couple thousand years. Even 500 would be pretty nice.

punk rebel ecks posted:

I was a fan of Bad Empanda until I commented on one of his videos and he basically said that since I'm an American my opinion doesn't matter.

What were you arguing? Were you just asking a question?

I have to say in general if you're not from a country, you definitely need to be careful with the judgments you make about their politics. There are some universal things like anti-colonialism, anti-capitalism that should be supported. But on the other hand these fights can be co-opted or distorted and a naive observer can get fooled, like I got fooled by Yakú Perez in Ecuador and his supposed support for indigenous causes. So you really have to be a keen observer, pay attention to who is trying to sell you on something, and try to get a broad set of sources from the people on the ground and not just the people who happen to speak English.

All that being said, it is a little incongruent to be an Australian and just handwave Americans or Brits that make comments or questions. All these countries had their grimy hands over Latin America to some extent or another. At some point he was the dumb Australian too.

GimmickMan
Dec 27, 2011

There are enough vocally rightwing Peronists in the party right now that I have no doubt they would've gladly participated in any number of the monstrosities that the oligarchy of Argentina has been perpetuating since its inception. Hell, Pichetto was part of PJ's leadership until two years ago and he said "We should vindicate the conquest of the desert" like a week ago. We're in agreement that PJ behaves much like said oligarchy and mostly only take progressive policies when they can coopt any systems resulting from them to their own ends.

What I continue to disagree with is that they're a more efficient political force than their opposition. Like, that might be true in some provinces (San Luis, Santa Cruz) or a few districts of Buenos Aires (La Matanza stands out here) but the liberals have always been and will likely always be the ones with more influence in CABA and the agricultural countryside, which is where money and population are most concentrated.

If they were as influential as you say, let alone the most reactionary (which is the part of what you said that I think clashes most with people), they wouldn't have been couped out of power multiple times or have lost the culture war in the capital of the country like they have.

Would Peron have supported the genocide of the natives? We don't know and it doesn't matter, because he wasn't there to do so and reap the benefits of it, it was the liberals who were there. Also, yes, the AAA were real and terrible but consider the dictatorship got away with a bodycount about twenty times larger while people looked the other way until they committed political suicide by going to war. They could get away with much more, including making Peron's name a forbidden word, because they were much more firmly backed by economic and cultural powers local and foreign.

I get the point you're trying to make that PJ has coopted and corrupted what could have been a much stronger leftist movement, which, yeah, it loving sucks, but I can't really agree that they're the worst thing in the Argie political system today when the same lobbyist groups that originated the problems PJ perpetuates are still there, have been going strong for at least two centuries and even just won the PASO yesterday.

punk rebel ecks
Dec 11, 2010

A shitty post? This calls for a dance of deduction.

no hay camino posted:

What were you arguing? Were you just asking a question?

It was his tankie topic. In the video he said that tankie is just a term liberals use to deride anyone to the left of a social democrat. I posted that in my circles "tankie" means people who hold water for authoritarian tendencies of regimes just because they are perceived as anti-American or left wing.

WhiskeyWhiskers
Oct 14, 2013


"هذا ليس عادلاً."
"هذا ليس عادلاً على الإطلاق."
"كان هناك وقت الآن."
(السياق الخفي: للقراءة)

punk rebel ecks posted:

It was his tankie topic. In the video he said that tankie is just a term liberals use to deride anyone to the left of a social democrat. I posted that in my circles "tankie" means people who hold water for authoritarian tendencies of regimes just because they are perceived as anti-American or left wing.

As much as I dislike BadEmpanada, he was right.

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Ghost Leviathan
Mar 2, 2017

Exploration is ill-advised.
Yeah, the latter definition refers to an incredibly tiny group of people on Twitter who were always irrelevant to everything. At this point it's the same as fascists calling anyone not full-throatedly supporting them a communist.

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