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Separate issue, but I kinda wish we didn’t see aging PCs as quite so disposable. But idk know if there’s actually much we can do with them.
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Sep 10, 2021 20:02
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The desktop I built in 2011 around a Phenom II 965 BE is still running and performing fine, under both Windows 10 and Linux. It can't keep up in games anymore and is missing some CPU instruction sets, but for 99% of use cases it is still fine.
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Sep 10, 2021 20:07
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That’s what I mean. Often they’re still capable machines, but we can have good reasons for getting replacements. But what do you do with the old one, if you don’t need two desktops?
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Sep 10, 2021 20:12
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Rinkles posted:That’s what I mean. Often they’re still capable machines, but we can have good reasons for getting replacements. But what do you do with the old one, if you don’t need two desktops? There are often computer refurbishers/recyclers who can make good use of them, but you're right that's not an option everywhere. I keep mine around because I'm fond of it and still make use of it, but I'm also a nerd and have a stockpile of equipment just in case.
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Sep 10, 2021 20:15
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My pet theory is that MS knows 11 is a half-baked trash patch for 10 and this is a way to throttle new users upgrading to it, while maintaining a sense of being part of an exclusive club of Windows 11 authorized PCs.
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Sep 10, 2021 20:20
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Like five years ago I used to work for a used computer store, and even then plenty of computers up to 10 years old or so were perfectly usable as Internet/Word Processing/Email machines. Longevity has only increased since then, MS is going to force a lot of perfectly capable computers into the bin before their time. 4th-7th gen Intels especially.
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Sep 10, 2021 20:32
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The CPU limitation is a legit worry for my work. It's a public school in Alberta, which is has basically no funding due to conservative governments cutting our budget by a few % nearly every year for last couple decades. At this point we only replace PCs if the cost of replacing is lower than the cost of repair. By 2025 >50% of our machines probably won't have a supported CPU. That leaves us with either forcing Win11 to run on unsupported hardware, or switching half our machines to Win10 LTSC 2019.
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Sep 10, 2021 20:41
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Ihmemies posted:Maybe Intel sent MS a list of CPU's they are allowed to support in order to sell more new CPU's? Microsoft promised the oems that they will get a new os to sell to customers - windows 10x. It was bad even by Microsoft standards. So they cancelled it. Oems still demand new os. So microsoft slaps togeter windows 11
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Sep 10, 2021 20:43
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Klyith posted:The CPU support thing is ironically a way more well-founded and reasonable demand! Using a hypervisor to isolate the OS kernel and defender from everything else is a good anti-malware defense. But it would kinda suck for people to get a surprise performance hit from upgrading to 11, so a tiny support list is rational. (Skylake + HVCI sucked, though. There was a real performance hit even interactively, so I can see why they don't want to officially support it). phongn fucked around with this message at 21:04 on Sep 10, 2021 |
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Sep 10, 2021 21:01
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Hungry Computer posted:The CPU limitation is a legit worry for my work. It's a public school in Alberta, which is has basically no funding due to conservative governments cutting our budget by a few % nearly every year for last couple decades. At this point we only replace PCs if the cost of replacing is lower than the cost of repair. By 2025 >50% of our machines probably won't have a supported CPU. That leaves us with either forcing Win11 to run on unsupported hardware, or switching half our machines to Win10 LTSC 2019. I feel like Microsoft is staggering around weirdly and relying too much on institutional inertia while different branches of the company set up a situation that is not good for the company as a whole. The OS guys release an intrusive dumbed-down Mac-like respin of Windows 10 and there is a lot of hemming and hawing about what systems will support it, or systems where you can install it but it won't update, and so and on so forth. Meanwhile the Office team is pushing hard for web-based versions of everything that work independent of OS, making a local install increasingly superfluous. The Edge team is working to make it handle PDFs as capably as Adobe Reader, like decent fill and sign options. Office and Adobe are two of the things keeping me on Windows for work, and if I could reliably work on .docx and fillable PDFs in a browser then most of those reasons go away. I think my office is still running the local network on Windows Server, but I'm not sure how dependent we are on it. Other departments may have some more proprietary Windows-based stuff than mine, but I'm guessing it could be virtualized if needed. More than 90% of my own workflow is fine using a Linux desktop instead of Windows. Hell, I'm currently running the Linux Edge beta and it's perfectly fine. The main reason I ever run Windows on my personal machines is for gaming, and if that continues to reach parity on the Linux side then I really won't have any need for Windows except maybe as a backup OS or for niche purposes.
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Sep 10, 2021 21:18
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I don't get these claims about webifiying Office. The current web versions are a clusterfuck, IMO, and the rumor about "rewriting Office" really just pertain to Outlook.
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Sep 10, 2021 21:33
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E: ^ Office on the Web rules. It covers 95% of use cases and that last 5% are advanced office features that most people don't even have to deal with on their day-to-day. If Proton lives up to expectations there really won't be much a reason to use Windows at home anymore. Desktop Linux is a lot more accessible than it used to be, and if it comes down to an increasingly-poor populace having to decide between paying several hundred dollars or putting something like Pop OS on the computer they already own to access the same web content they were already accessing, economics gonna be at play. klosterdev fucked around with this message at 21:36 on Sep 10, 2021 |
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Sep 10, 2021 21:33
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MS Game Pass is the main reason Windows is on my home PC. As far as I can tell there's still no way to run that or any UWP apps in Linux.
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Sep 10, 2021 21:44
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Combat Pretzel posted:I don't get these claims about webifiying Office. The current web versions are a clusterfuck, IMO, and the rumor about "rewriting Office" really just pertain to Outlook. I feel like this demands an obligatory "old man yells at cloud" joke.
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Sep 10, 2021 23:48
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Here's my hot take: gently caress the web as universal solution to everything and their mom.
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Sep 11, 2021 00:13
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Combat Pretzel posted:Here's my hot take: gently caress the web as universal solution to everything and their mom. Actually though. Both as a user of computers and as a developer of software, gently caress the web
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Sep 11, 2021 00:42
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Combat Pretzel posted:Here's my hot take: gently caress the web as universal solution to everything and their mom. I don't fully disagree with you, but I see it more as a case-by-case kind of thing. Like once webmail matured the idea of running a dedicated email client became anathema to me. Pre-pandemic I still made some use of Outlook on the desktop, but at this point I am so used to Outlook on the web that I will actively avoid the local version. I haven't run an email client on my own machines except for archival purposes since no later than 2005, because it is pointless and superfluous to me. I do install office suites on my machines, but left to my own devices it's going to be Libre Office. I only use MS Office under protest, and have done so for even longer than I've used exclusively webmail. I'm fine with digital delivery of games, but don't like the idea of not having local installs. poo poo, I don't even like streaming music - I rely on my library of mp3s for that.
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Sep 11, 2021 00:54
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Hungry Computer posted:MS Game Pass is the main reason Windows is on my home PC. As far as I can tell there's still no way to run that or any UWP apps in Linux. The other option, and what I've decided is my long term plan after being very turned off by 11, is the new-ish linux KVM tech that can run a Windows VM inside your linux host with bare-metal performance. And then output it to a window on a linux desktop. It's loving witchcraft. OTOH it's still mega-nerding where you have to write your own configs specific to your hardware, so maybe not for people who are just getting started with linux. Also you need a 2nd GPU, which is why it will stay a long range plan for me until whenever GPU prices finally unfuck themselves.
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Sep 11, 2021 06:14
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Yeah, I think if I install linux at any point, I'll stick to dual booting for my game pass library.
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Sep 11, 2021 06:46
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CaptainSarcastic posted:The main reason I ever run Windows on my personal machines is for gaming, and if that continues to reach parity on the Linux side then I really won't have any need for Windows except maybe as a backup OS or for niche purposes. At this point I think the biggest thing holding back Linux gaming is the fact that publishers still insist on using denuvo. Just about everything else I’ve tried in Proton has been playable but if the game has denuvo DRM, you have to find a crack or boot into windows to play it.
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Sep 11, 2021 07:11
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Minor issues on the Surface Pro 4: The latest Nord VPN client does not work out of the box on Windows 11. Neither does YouTube in Chrome after waking from sleep until the page is refreshed. I imagine both of these will get fixed down the line. Rinkles posted:That’s what I mean. Often they’re still capable machines, but we can have good reasons for getting replacements. But what do you do with the old one, if you don’t need two desktops? For normal people, it can make a good temporary backup to keep around in case of major hardware failure, or a new computer for grandpa to watch HD YouTube and Netflix. For serious nerds, keep em around for future projects, Minecraft server, home media server, etc. Heran Bago fucked around with this message at 10:55 on Sep 11, 2021 |
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Sep 11, 2021 10:53
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corgski posted:At this point I think the biggest thing holding back Linux gaming is the fact that publishers still insist on using denuvo. Just about everything else I’ve tried in Proton has been playable but if the game has denuvo DRM, you have to find a crack or boot into windows to play it. I know anti-cheats are currently a brick wall for Proton but I thought DRM generally wasn't a problem? I checked the list of games with Denuvo that have yet to be cracked and a good chunk of them are Gold or Platinum https://www.protondb.com/app/1446650 https://www.protondb.com/app/1277400 https://www.protondb.com/app/1113560 https://www.protondb.com/app/447040 https://www.protondb.com/app/629820
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Sep 11, 2021 11:42
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Canine Blues Arooo posted:Actually though. Both as a user of computers and as a developer of software, gently caress the web I just get tired of people calling everything on a computer an “app.” I really don’t understand why it bothers me at all; I’m not a programmer or IT person, and I have both an iPhone and iPad running apps all day long.
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Sep 11, 2021 13:26
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DerekSmartymans posted:I just get tired of people calling everything on a computer an “app.” I really don’t understand why it bothers me at all; I’m not a programmer or IT person, and I have both an iPhone and iPad running apps all day long. I mean, it’s shorter that the alternatives What did we use to call them, programs, executables… Pretty sure that switch to calling everything an app was a Steve Jobs thing
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Sep 11, 2021 17:12
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repiv posted:I know anti-cheats are currently a brick wall for Proton but I thought DRM generally wasn't a problem? Huh, I’ll have to check again, I was bashing my head against the wall trying to get some of my games to work as recently as six months ago.
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Sep 11, 2021 19:34
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Comfy Fleece Sweater posted:I mean, it’s shorter that the alternatives Programs. Computers run programs. I mean, it’s not like it’s against the law to refer to them as “apps,” it’s just grating to my 47 y/o ears. I am still posting on a 22 year old dead gay forum, after all.
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Sep 11, 2021 21:02
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I like Linux, because it's got plenty of interesting features, I like tinkering and the UNIX ways, but it's pretty useless if I can't run various (Windows only) productivity software flawlessly out of the box or play AAA games near their actual release date. If I have to run VMs left and right to make this work, I ought to stick to Windows to begin with. I gave it an extended try a long while back, when GPU passthrough via VFIO started to become a thing, and I found myself running the VM more than the underlying Linux system.
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Sep 11, 2021 21:42
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DerekSmartymans posted:Programs. Computers run programs. I mean, it’s not like it’s against the law to refer to them as “apps,” it’s just grating to my 47 y/o ears. I am still posting on a 22 year old dead gay forum, after all. Application programs or "apps" are specifically user-facing programs that normal people do things with. All applications are programs, not all programs are applications. Your web browser is an app, notepad.exe is an app. MySQL database software isn't an app, grep isn't an app. Everything on phones is an app because that's the only thing phones can do. The contraction "app" dates to before mobile phones existed, people were talking about a "killer app" in the 90s and Jobs in fact used the phrase when the iphone was first revealed.
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Sep 11, 2021 21:48
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I've run dual-boots back to the early 2000s, with Mandrake Linux starting off as my go-to. Over the years the balance of time shifted more and more to the Linux side of the dual-boot for me, but still having to use Windows when I'm at the office or using my work laptop. Like I said, I don't have to run much in the way of proprietary software, and have been too lazy to find workarounds for the few things that I do. I don't hate Windows, and never have, but Microsoft has been really good at loving up the user experience over time. I do generally dislike Office, and I think the last version that I didn't detest was Office XP. Removing or hiding options is not something I take well, nor is being "helpful" in ways that end up with me fighting the program to make it do what I want instead of what it thinks I want. So far what I hear about Windows 11 sounds like a lot of the same kind of misguided approach - remove options, limit choices, force things on the user. If they don't unfuck Windows 11 I'll probably avoid it or just view it as specifically for gaming. I can't imagine work updating to 11 - we only went to 10 about 2 years ago.
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Sep 11, 2021 22:00
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Combat Pretzel posted:I like Linux, because it's got plenty of interesting features, I like tinkering and the UNIX ways, but it's pretty useless if I can't run various (Windows only) productivity software flawlessly out of the box or play AAA games near their actual release date. I'm fascinated to see how the Steam Deck plays out when people go in expecting a console-like experience, but get the kinda-works-with-tweaks-months-after-game-launches Proton experience
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Sep 11, 2021 22:06
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repiv posted:I'm fascinated to see how the Steam Deck plays out when people go in expecting a console-like experience, but get the kinda-works-with-tweaks-months-after-game-launches Proton experience I don't expect this to be the experience for most people to be honest. Maybe I have a different standard than most people, since I've been using Linux for almost two decades at this point, but current proton is the closest to a seamless "it just works" experience I've ever seen on Linux. I don't have a huge game library, so I'm sure there's problem titles I havent run into, for me the only thing that has led to problems have been some VR games. Even using Proton forks, it seems like it should be more of a pain but it's one of the most straightforward things I've done with Linux. I suspect/hope that by the time the steam deck releases this will be even more true.
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Sep 12, 2021 00:21
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Klyith posted:Application programs Yeah I know, I just wanted to be crotchety because I just got off a Zoom “meeting” with my 8 y/o niece and 5 y/o nephew thanking me for a box full of like Disney, SpongeBob, Jurassic Park, and various “learning” games (Blue’s Clues, Sesame Street, etc) while digging through the box (they got the DVD-R USB from Amazon two days ago) and talking about the various “apps” that looked like fun. They were for my now 22 y/o son and boxed up as he got older. My nephew is falling behind because of a Covid breakout at school, and his grandmother (sis-in-law) said he’d said he’d never seen so many apps before. I bit my tongue.  
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Sep 12, 2021 01:28
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Combat Pretzel posted:If I have to run VMs left and right to make this work, I ought to stick to Windows to begin with. I gave it an extended try a long while back, when GPU passthrough via VFIO started to become a thing, and I found myself running the VM more than the underlying Linux system. CaptainSarcastic posted:I've run dual-boots back to the early 2000s, with Mandrake Linux starting off as my go-to. Over the years the balance of time shifted more and more to the Linux side of the dual-boot for me, but still having to use Windows when I'm at the office or using my work laptop. Like I said, I don't have to run much in the way of proprietary software, and have been too lazy to find workarounds for the few things that I do. Yeah, this is gonna be different for everyone. At this point a whole lot of the software I use is multi-platform, and the things that aren't have pretty decent analogues on the linux side. Hell, you get visual studio in linux now with VSCode. If I had more windows-only software that I was unavoidably tied to, that might make the "living inside the VM" issue a problem. But for me, it's pretty much just games and game-adjacent stuff keeping me tied to windows. And I absolutely can't do the dual-boot thing, because the Windows side also has all the multi-platform software I need and dual booting is a PITA. I don't want to shut down all the stuff I was working on during the day and reboot just to play a game. That sucks. I've done the dual-boot thing and it leads to me drifting back into windows.
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Sep 12, 2021 02:27
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DerekSmartymans posted:Programs. Computers run programs. I mean, it’s not like it’s against the law to refer to them as “apps,” it’s just grating to my 47 y/o ears. I am still posting on a 22 year old dead gay forum, after all. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pI-iJcC9JUc&t=53s
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Sep 12, 2021 02:35
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Now y’all jus tryin’ to piss me off… (that commercial is brain poison  )
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Sep 12, 2021 14:21
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it would be nice if 11 didn't do stupid stuff like decide randomly to change my multi monitor settings from show only on 2 to extend these displays when booting up this morning, leaving me to wonder why the mail app wasn't opening (it had, just on the laptop monitor, which had the brightness turned all the way down so i didn't notice)
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Sep 12, 2021 17:11
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Windows 11 - it'd be nice if it didn't do stupid stuff
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Sep 12, 2021 19:28
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After a good week I can't get over how bad the file explorer is. Love the extra spacing between elements for touch screen use. It makes the whole thing so much more manageable for small operations with fingers. Stylus usage for precision is less of a requirement now. Odd that it's on by default in desktop mode but whatever. I've adjusted to the top bar that no longer has tabs or ribbon menus. Kind of neutral on it at this point. Again lots of room for touch, but things don't have to be so tucked away. What I'm not sure I'll ever get used to are the icons. Most individual file icons are just fine. The icons for an empty folder and a folder containing files are very similar. At a glace they look nearly identical with medium icons, and there isn't a preview of what files are inside. It looks sleeker than the old exploded folder icons, and I'm sure it's nice for performance not having to generate thumbnails, but god drat. These are small, medium, and large:  Also these icons look like some very old iPhone / iOS stuff and the look conflicts with everything else. They don't show if they have contents like normal folders and are not even consistent with their equivalents in the quick-access panel.  In conclusion, barnold posted:Windows 11 - it'd be nice if it didn't do stupid stuff Heran Bago fucked around with this message at 17:10 on Sep 13, 2021 |
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Sep 13, 2021 10:45
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Heran Bago posted:Also these icons look like some very old iPhone / iOS stuff and the look conflicts with everything else. They don't show if they have contents like normal folders and are not even consistent with their equivalents in the quick-access panel. Folders that have contents show a slight white line on the top left of the icon.
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Sep 13, 2021 11:12
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The new icons are quite nice in their own way, but white strip = folder content is just unfathomably poor design and needs changing ASAP.
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Sep 13, 2021 12:23
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