|
AAAAA! Real Muenster posted:Thankfully I'm not taking that angle though. I am approaching it from "I'm a dumb American I had no idea that Stalin killed 5 digits worth of people either through shipping them all to Siberia or negligence" until I started playing this kinds of games and doing some of my own research. Stalin having a Purge Button in HoI4 does nothing to illustrate that he was also a mass murderer. Germany industrialized killing people at an unprecedented rate and something should be said about it in the game; Stalin killed off million of people and something should be said about it in the game; the US imprisoned hundreds of thousands of people for the simple fact of being Asai and something should be said about it in the game. while the fact that the holocaust literally doesn't get mentioned leaves a bad taste in my mouth I do understand it. I have a suspicion that, far from discouraging or educating people, it would in fact encourage exactly the worst possible kind of person.
|
#
?
Sep 13, 2021 18:58
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 25, 2024 09:38 |
|
|
AAAAA! Real Muenster posted:Thankfully I'm not taking that angle though. AAAAA! Real Muenster posted:I am approaching it from "I'm a dumb American I had no idea that Stalin killed 5 digits worth of people either through shipping them all to Siberia or negligence" until I started playing this kinds of games and doing some of my own research. Stalin having a Purge Button in HoI4 does nothing to illustrate that he was also a mass murderer. Germany industrialized killing people at an unprecedented rate and something should be said about it in the game; Stalin killed off million of people and something should be said about it in the game; the US imprisoned hundreds of thousands of people for the simple fact of being Asai and something should be said about it in the game. AAAAA! Real Muenster posted:All this to disagree with "Germany should not be playable in HoI". I'd rather see events like Romania gets for its King's lifestyle, but worse, where Hitler suddenly diverts resources for something bad. Make players sign an affirmation of "Yes I understand that Hitler and Nazi Germany committed mass murderer on a horrific scale" to get the flavor text about genocide to go away. I dunno, something needs to be done.
|
|
#
?
Sep 13, 2021 19:07
|
|
|
i'm approaching it from an angle of "making a major country that everyone wants to play in a paradox game into an npc is stupid as gently caress" lol that that makes me a holocaust denier
|
|
#
?
Sep 13, 2021 19:11
|
|
|
playing as germany should make you hate hitler even more because he's constantly loving up the war effort. just endless bullshit that gets in the way of winning. you aren't really even "changing history" in an idle alt-hist kind of way if you don't have to contend with the same obstacles that germany actually did contend with
|
|
#
?
Sep 13, 2021 19:22
|
|
|
Decisive Campaigns: Barbarossa is one of the best examples I've seen of illustrating the horrors of the German warmachine and the regime behind it whilst not turning the game into an atrocity slideshow. It's not quite compable with HOI IV given you're playing as a Field Marshal in a specific campaign, but via its political point system and (semi) random events it makes you grapple with the idea of culpability and brutality. Hell whilst rudimentary it even rolls to see if you face a warcrimes tribunal post war. It's not perfect by any means, but it's a really good illustration of balancing mechanical options with what played out in the period depicted.
|
|
#
?
Sep 13, 2021 19:37
|
|
|
This is why Close Combat 2 is the best WW2 game. The Allied side is the losing side in an interesting three pronged operation with varied terrain and environments, with a reason to rush. Operation Market Garden is the best space for a game.SkySteak posted:Decisive Campaigns: Barbarossa is one of the best examples I've seen of illustrating the horrors of the German warmachine and the regime behind it whilst not turning the game into an atrocity slideshow. It's not quite compable with HOI IV given you're playing as a Field Marshal in a specific campaign, but via its political point system and (semi) random events it makes you grapple with the idea of culpability and brutality. Hell whilst rudimentary it even rolls to see if you face a warcrimes tribunal post war. It's not perfect by any means, but it's a really good illustration of balancing mechanical options with what played out in the period depicted. I love that the very first choice is "Are you playing as a Nazi" followed by "Are you listening to Hitler?". It helps so much in painting the breadth and division within the German war machine, especially in not being "warcrimes yes or no" but also, "which warcrimes", showing the different flavours of awful. Also, Stalin having a purge button is good. Stalin's purge button being justified by a civil war unless he purges hard enough is bad. Again, I prefer DC:B's approach of Stalin just becoming increasingly paranoid about random generals and people, and if it gets to high he just has more people killed.
|
|
#
?
Sep 13, 2021 19:46
|
|
|
The US, Brazil, and Oman should be unplayable in Vicky because of slavery. My day 1 mod will address this.
|
|
#
?
Sep 13, 2021 20:00
|
|
|
Zesty posted:Is it worth grabbing Surviving Mars + Green Planet while they're on sale? I don't know ANYTHING about the game, but Green Planet seems like a fun idea for long-term goals in a colony type game. Or is the game too.... Paradox poisoned? Surviving Mars and all it's DLCs other than the latest one is -absolutely- worth it. The replay value isn't too high beyond doing a handful of runs as different sponsors, but by then you'll definitely have had your money's worth. It's also a really pretty game and making pretty colonies is fun.
|
|
#
?
Sep 13, 2021 20:21
|
|
|
hot cocoa on the couch posted:i'm approaching it from an angle of "making a major country that everyone wants to play in a paradox game into an npc is stupid as gently caress" lol that that makes me a holocaust denier That's how war is these days
|
|
#
?
Sep 13, 2021 21:32
|
|
|
If the criteria is 'countries that do genocides shouldn't be playable' welp.. Sorry, Vicky3, Eu4, CK3, etc.
|
|
#
?
Sep 13, 2021 21:41
|
|
|
drat people just spent two pages doing whataboutism about someone saying that it's a terrible idea to let people play as the nazis without having a single mention of anything the nazis did outside of declaring wars. you can (and should) have an american and soviet government that doesn't cause genocides or mass killings, either deliberately or by accident. the entire concept of Nazism is to make genocides. literally divert resources from the frontlines to do genocide. goons complained about paradox being soft on the wehraboos so hard that they started emulating their arguments, fascinating.
|
|
#
?
Sep 13, 2021 22:32
|
|
|
The only 'good' response to this is just not to make video games about WWII, or other large scale conflicts in which countries did bad things. Which isn't necessarily the worst idea, but would deprive Paradox of basically all of their big games but Stellaris.
|
|
#
?
Sep 13, 2021 22:38
|
|
|
Except you can also commit even more massive, futuristic, not-yet-possible war crimes in Stellaris! 
|
|
#
?
Sep 13, 2021 22:44
|
|
|
Just as a side note, I'm pretty sure events going "Hello I see you are playing Germany please click this event to confirm that you are doing the genocides and all such" and "Hello I see you are still playing Germany please let me give you an update on all the genocides you're doing: Yep, still doing genocides" would get the game super hyper mega banned in Germany in an instant, even if it were to be removed in the German version. I presume it's been hard enough getting "play as the Nazis" past the authorities, so I very highly doubt the idea of "Hello we want to continue selling this game that in other regions shows the player how they are doing the genocides by playing" is going to fly. Also, Paradox balks at the basic idea of civilian casualties of war even existing as far as HoI4 is concerned.
|
|
|
#
?
Sep 13, 2021 22:57
|
|
|
Zesty posted:Is it worth grabbing Surviving Mars + Green Planet while they're on sale? I don't know ANYTHING about the game, but Green Planet seems like a fun idea for long-term goals in a colony type game. Or is the game too.... Paradox poisoned? You are more likely to get information about Surviving Mars in the Management Games thread.
|
|
#
?
Sep 14, 2021 00:04
|
|
|
Mans posted:you can (and should) have an american and soviet government that doesn't cause genocides or mass killings, either deliberately or by accident. the entire concept of Nazism is to make genocides. literally divert resources from the frontlines to do genocide. Uh, I got bad news for you chief, Soviet ideology likewise makes not having genocides or mass killings pretty darn near impossible. It kinda thrives on declaring certain segments or classes enemies of the state. A Buttery Pastry posted:??? American Education tends to do an okay job teaching about Nazi genocide and atrocities but a piss poor job about Soviet/Communist state genocides and atrocities. At the school I teach at, when most kids get to me, they know plenty about the Holocaust and Hitler, but don't have the faintest idea who Stalin or Mao are. I showed To Live one year in some of my classes and it blew kids' minds. Crazy Joe Wilson fucked around with this message at 00:16 on Sep 14, 2021 |
|
#
?
Sep 14, 2021 00:14
|
|
|
Kulaksayswhat?
|
|
#
?
Sep 14, 2021 00:15
|
|
|
DrSunshine posted:Except you can also commit even more massive, futuristic, not-yet-possible war crimes in Stellaris!
|
|
#
?
Sep 14, 2021 00:18
|
|
|
DrSunshine posted:Except you can also commit even more massive, futuristic, not-yet-possible war crimes in Stellaris! Yeah, but when I hit the 'glass the Blorg's home planet' button in Stellaris, there aren't actual Blorgs out there who are still traumatized from that time the evil space elves glassed their home planet to launch a petition to get the game banned. ...As far as we know, at least.
|
|
#
?
Sep 14, 2021 00:34
|
|
|
Hellioning posted:Yeah, but when I hit the 'glass the Blorg's home planet' button in Stellaris, there aren't actual Blorgs out there who are still traumatized from that time the evil space elves glassed their home planet to launch a petition to get the game banned. okay sure here we are back to ranking genocides and atrocities 
|
|
#
?
Sep 14, 2021 00:36
|
|
|
So I don't speak Swedish, but my brief forays into this article via. google translate suggest it's, uh, really bad. https://www.dn.se/kultur/undersokning-bland-anstallda-sexuella-krankningar-och-tystnadskultur-pa-svensk-speljatte/
|
|
#
?
Sep 14, 2021 00:49
|
|
|
Yall know this is a video game right? No matter what the gently caress you do or dont do, or how many numbers you manipulate up or down, history already fuckin happened. The game is the history only what if... The real fuckin sickos are the one massacring whole entire loving planets in stellaris.
|
|
#
?
Sep 14, 2021 01:16
|
|
|
Maybe those xenos should have thought about the consequences of claiming a territory on my border if they didn't want to get xenocided. Did you ever think of that?
|
|
#
?
Sep 14, 2021 02:05
|
|
|
Lady Radia posted:So I don't speak Swedish, but my brief forays into this article via. google translate suggest it's, uh, really bad. https://www.dn.se/kultur/undersokning-bland-anstallda-sexuella-krankningar-och-tystnadskultur-pa-svensk-speljatte/ Some excerpts through google translate, cause this poo poo is real bad: quote:Unwanted sexual attention, inappropriate touch and an atmosphere reminiscent of a "boy's club". So Frederick has to go even if only for the symbolism (presuming that sexual misconduct wasnt the reason for why he left before, in which case he shouldn't have even returned!)
|
|
#
?
Sep 14, 2021 02:19
|
|
|
Dramicus posted:Wouldn't a fantasy ww2 be even worse in this context? As the not-Germany would literally be clean and still attract all the wheraboos just as much as the real, not-clean Germany does? When I think of fantasy Germany WW2, I think of Fullmetal Alchemist. Lead by a Fuhrer and committing genocide.
|
|
#
?
Sep 14, 2021 02:35
|
|
|
Unless that's based on a NEW report that sounds like it's a repeat of the previous Google translate issue? The union's PR guy was in the reddit thread about it going "yeah we had to contact a bunch of news sites to get them to correct their language because it was way worse than what we actually said."
|
|
#
?
Sep 14, 2021 02:40
|
|
|
If it's as bad as the article makes it out to be, what the hell is up with the union? How was this a surprise to them? I still can't even figure out why it got leaked before, if a union survey showed those results and they felt it was a serious issue shouldn't they have figured out some details before even going to the company management? The only thing that makes sense in this scenario is the union has to be seen as bad as the company itself.
|
|
#
?
Sep 14, 2021 02:46
|
|
|
Crazy Joe Wilson posted:Uh, I got bad news for you chief, Soviet ideology likewise makes not having genocides or mass killings pretty darn near impossible. It kinda thrives on declaring certain segments or classes enemies of the state. ...what? The end of a social class is a material thing, you don't genocide aristocracy. The forced mass migrations and their lethal consequences weren't part of Soviet ideology but the result of terrible decisions, much like the internment of the Japanese and using Japanese skulls as trophies. The proof of this is that you are able to see years where neither the United States or the USSR actively did all they could to wipe out those most hated minorities from the earth. This was not the case with Nazi Germany. If you're a teacher and I have to tell you this, oh dear. Neither Franklin nor Stalin spent two decades demanding the total extermination of the Japanese and Cossacks, reached power explicitly wanting this to occur and diverted industry to complete these affairs until enemy troops were literally at the gates of the death camps. HoI actually deals with this in a terrible manner since it actively tells you that Stalin is 100% right and you should do the necessary purges because people are actively sabotaging the USSR unless you stop them. But this is entirely beside the point. I'm not going to reply much to the rest of your post, I'll only say that, with the endless anti-anything remotely close to center-left (much less actual left) propaganda in the United States, if the kids you know nowadays aren't being constantly convinced by how evil Mao was, it's only because landlords are doing their best to turn a whole generation into his biggest fans nessin posted:If it's as bad as the article makes it out to be, what the hell is up with the union? How was this a surprise to them? I still can't even figure out why it got leaked before, if a union survey showed those results and they felt it was a serious issue shouldn't they have figured out some details before even going to the company management? The only thing that makes sense in this scenario is the union has to be seen as bad as the company itself.
|
|
#
?
Sep 14, 2021 03:07
|
|
|
nessin posted:If it's as bad as the article makes it out to be, what the hell is up with the union? How was this a surprise to them? I still can't even figure out why it got leaked before, if a union survey showed those results and they felt it was a serious issue shouldn't they have figured out some details before even going to the company management? The only thing that makes sense in this scenario is the union has to be seen as bad as the company itself. They only unionized earlier this year, it's entirely possible this is one of the reasons they wanted to do so.
|
|
#
?
Sep 14, 2021 03:13
|
|
Yes, it's like a lava lamp.
|
Mans posted:drat people just spent two pages doing whataboutism about someone saying that it's a terrible idea to let people play as the nazis without having a single mention of anything the nazis did outside of declaring wars. It is not whataboutism to correctly identify Nazism as the end product of 500 years of Western Imperialism and Colonialism. The Holocaust was preceded by the Spanish treatment of Cubans, British treatment of Boers, Belgian treatment of Congolese, German treatment of Herero and Namaqua people, and American treatment of Indigenous peoples to the west. The latter quite literally inspired Hitler's war of extermination in the east. You could make a compelling strategy game about indigenous peoples resisting a powerful, colonizing force but that isn't what Paradox games are.
|
|
#
?
Sep 14, 2021 03:13
|
|
|
I'll never stop repeating this, because I love it: Turkey is a crazy outlier in that list of played countries and was almost certainly the single driving force behind Battle for the Bosphorus getting made, because Turkey was on the top-five list of most-played countries even when it was a generic-focus-tree country. People just really, really want to play the WW2 era as Turkey. Certainly helps that BftB's soundtrack additions all slap. I loving love The Black Sea.
|
|
#
?
Sep 14, 2021 03:16
|
|
|
ANOTHER SCORCHER posted:It is not whataboutism to correctly identify Nazism as the end product of 500 years of Western Imperialism and Colonialism Though one should be very careful to make it clear that Nazism and their genocides were not an inevitable development of those things, nor was it the only possible outcome (or even unique to Germany as the Sonderweg would have it, though that much is clear from your post)
|
|
#
?
Sep 14, 2021 03:17
|
|
|
ANOTHER SCORCHER posted:American treatment of Indigenous peoples to the west literally inspired Hitler's war of extermination in the east. I get it, a lot of people hate the US post 1950, but this is just wrong. WW2 is the direct result of WW1, Hitler killing off a shitload of Jews in the background is just the ideological replay of many pogroms of the past which is why there's a word for it.
|
|
#
?
Sep 14, 2021 03:29
|
|
|
SnoochtotheNooch posted:I get it, a lot of people hate the US post 1950, but this is just wrong. WW2 is the direct result of WW1, Hitler killing off a shitload of Jews in the background is just the ideological replay of many pogroms of the past which is why there's a word for it. the Jews were a trial run for what they were going to do to the Slavs in the east (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Generalplan_Ost), and yes Hitler himself cited America's project of Manifest Destiny even saying that "the volga will be our mississippi"
|
|
#
?
Sep 14, 2021 03:34
|
|
|
SnoochtotheNooch posted:WW2 is the direct result of WW1 lol yea nah
|
|
#
?
Sep 14, 2021 03:46
|
|
|
SnoochtotheNooch posted:I get it, a lot of people hate the US post 1950, but this is just wrong. WW2 is the direct result of WW1, Hitler killing off a shitload of Jews in the background is just the ideological replay of many pogroms of the past which is why there's a word for it. Pro tip the Nazis didn't just kill Jews they had very hot takes about Slavs too, specifically how they were going to kill the large majority of them to make room for German settlers and enslave the remaining fraction as agricultural labor on the vast and bountiful Crazycryodude fucked around with this message at 04:05 on Sep 14, 2021 |
|
#
?
Sep 14, 2021 04:00
|
|
|
Yea the Holocaust in the popular imagination (and in technical terms) is all about the murder of Jews specifically, but Jewish victims only make up about half of the Nazi murder victims (ie. excluding allied KIAs).
PittTheElder fucked around with this message at 04:31 on Sep 14, 2021 |
|
#
?
Sep 14, 2021 04:25
|
|
|
Crazy Joe Wilson posted:American Education tends to do an okay job teaching about Nazi genocide and atrocities but a piss poor job about Soviet/Communist state genocides and atrocities. At the school I teach at, when most kids get to me, they know plenty about the Holocaust and Hitler, but don't have the faintest idea who Stalin or Mao are. I showed To Live one year in some of my classes and it blew kids' minds. where the hell do you live???
|
|
#
?
Sep 14, 2021 05:05
|
|
|
It's extremely common for Amercian schools to stay away from recent history. My education covered very little 20th century history. I only learned about Watergate and Vietnam in detail in senior year and maybe that's just because they gave the teacher some leeway because he was a vet with a purple heart.
|
|
#
?
Sep 14, 2021 05:50
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 25, 2024 09:38 |
|
|
A Buttery Pastry posted:Yeah, it is actually quite a strange decision to make a game where you can play as any country in the world, so centered around just one country. Sure, it was core driver of the war (in Europe), but in terms of designing gameplay it seems very strange. Like, they've built an entire gameplay system that seems designed specifically to make the player think "Well, this sucks", then let a couple of countries get around it, when it'd make far more sense to design the game to be fun for the vast majority of countries. It's hard to escape when the start date is 1936 and the player gets control over industrial development. The player knows WWII is coming, and so no matter what country they play, they'll pursue expanding their industry and building up their military way harder than most countries actually did historically in that period. Especially since HoI4 is a pure wargame where that's all you can really do in peacetime anyway aside from waiting for focuses to run. It's a design problem any WWII game has to deal with, and the more power and freedom is given to the player, the more things have to be railroaded or restricted to keep a historical-ish WWII possible.
|
|
#
?
Sep 14, 2021 07:15
|
|
