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Between Fallout, Ponymod, TNO, and Anbennar I'm starting to think the pdox style games are just better suited to alt-history or straight up fantasy/sci-fi.
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Sep 16, 2021 01:48
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HOI4 definitely is, but the setting of eu and especially vicky are a big draw for me.
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Sep 16, 2021 01:51
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The actual best mod is not the Pony mod, nor the Fallout mod. It is the Pony Fallout mod.
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Sep 16, 2021 02:14
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paradox games have always been better suited to abandon history and making well balanced scenarios, namely because they’re uniformly incapable of representing any form of history
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Sep 16, 2021 02:19
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VostokProgram posted:It's a video game. Nobody's stupid enough to think that just because the Holocaust isn't represented in hoi4, that it didn't happen. Nobody looks at hoi4's depiction of Stalin's purges as historical truth. It doesn't matter. The game is not a reflection of latent national socialist tendencies within paradox development studios. Nor is everyone, or even most people, who play a country in hoi4 in agreement with that country's policies. Germany has a high player count because it's mechanically interesting and there is an obvious sequence of goals with increasing difficulty. Nazi fetishism and the clean Wehrmacht myth are real things that exist today, and they hurt people even if they don't hurt you personally. The way HoI has consistently portrayed Nazi Germany has implicitly endorsed both.
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Sep 16, 2021 02:27
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yikes! posted:HOI4 definitely is, but the setting of eu and especially vicky are a big draw for me. EU4’s good for most European powers and a few non-Europeans, but Vicky? I think there it’s mostly the economic mechanics and technologies rather than the actual point in time. I hope we get a good alternate setting to bring it all together for a better game.
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Sep 16, 2021 02:29
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HerpicleOmnicron5 posted:That’s also factually true, but the Fallout mod being better than base game is both more widely known and far less of a dunk.  Rynoto posted:Between Fallout, Ponymod, TNO, and Anbennar I'm starting to think the pdox style games are just better suited to alt-history or straight up fantasy/sci-fi. Well Paradox games seem to be easier to mod, or at least have more active modding communities, than most games out there. So if I want to play around in a Fantasy world at the strategic level I'm looking at a modded Paradox game, like the Witcher Kings or Faerun mods for CKII. HOI4 is in an interesting situation because it takes place on a shorter timescale than most other strategy games, and so is more appropriate for telling many stories than other games. In the other games some things take way longer than they should, because the games are designed so that warfare, politics, or (in CK) personal relationships are taking place on a timescale with the rise of a state. Add to that sensitive nature of a lot of the history covered by these games, HOI especially, and it's no wonder that there are so many alternate setting mods.
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Sep 16, 2021 02:32
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I feel like Vicky 3 is going to have multiple insanely good alt history or straight up fantasy total conversion mods. If the war game is at all detailed all I’m ever going to need is a decent steampunk mod.
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Sep 16, 2021 06:02
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One of the hardest part of modding is adding in decent graphics and images, and for the most part Paradox abstracts out the need for a lot of that stuff. When you are just writing txt files, or updating values it's pretty easy.
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Sep 16, 2021 06:03
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Lady Radia posted:paradox games have always been better suited to abandon history and making well balanced scenarios, namely because they’re uniformly incapable of representing any form of history Nobody played the balanced world scenarios for Doomsday. And balance is for other games, having asymmetrical challenges is an appeal of Paradox over other strategy games. Rynoto posted:Between Fallout, Ponymod, TNO, and Anbennar I'm starting to think the pdox style games are just better suited to alt-history or straight up fantasy/sci-fi. I think a lot of people are drawn to the historical aspect, as for me I can't stand the more out there poo poo. A certain level of unexpected happenings is appreciated, but when I start seeing poo poo like Sunset Conquest or whatever it's called I check out
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Sep 16, 2021 06:06
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Anbennar on hearts of iron would be an ambitious project but I'd love it. Kobolds could produce a dragon super heavy tank 
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Sep 16, 2021 11:25
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Gaius Marius posted:Nobody played the balanced world scenarios for Doomsday. And balance is for other games, having asymmetrical challenges is an appeal of Paradox over other strategy games. Also I pray TNO is ported to Vicky 3. The german civil war and its associated breakdowns in the puppet states, and the south african war, are like the only actual wars in the game outside of Russia. Vicky would remove a lot of the kludged in mechanics and tell the story better.
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Sep 16, 2021 11:53
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Vicky TNO: An alternative world where the British won the century even more than normal.
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Sep 16, 2021 12:38
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Mans posted:Vicky TNO: An alternative world where the British won the century even more than normal. please god no 
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Sep 16, 2021 12:52
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A V3 "Napoleon won" mod would be rad actually
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Sep 16, 2021 13:42
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RabidWeasel posted:A V3 "Napoleon won" mod would be rad actually If this includes a Toussaint led Haiti im in.
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Sep 16, 2021 14:03
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RabidWeasel posted:A V3 "Napoleon won" mod would be rad actually would that be a "napoleon never wasted his veterans in russia" alt-hist or a "napoleon turns away the prussians at waterloo and defeats tolly's army in front of the rhine" alt-hist? imo you gotta go back to 1810 or 1811 to diverge from our timeline to give any chance to napoleon winning. he had no chance against the sixth coalition and would have needed the brilliance of napoleon during the third coalition to rebuke the russians after waterloo (which he probably didn't have since wagram, despite displaying flashes of it during the six days in france) this is actually a really intriguing alt-hist for vicky 3, i agree. my brain is turning thinking about it right now haha e: or maybe napoleon accepts the frankfurt peace proposals? there is no way that would have been the end of the napoleonic wars though, just a breather hot cocoa on the couch fucked around with this message at 14:29 on Sep 16, 2021 |
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Sep 16, 2021 14:17
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AnEdgelord posted:If this includes a Toussaint led Haiti im in. Napoléon was imo better than most of his reactionary peers, but he did kinda re-institute slavery and invade Haiti*. A victorious First Empire presumably isn't going to be nice to Haiti. You can criticize Toussaint L'Ouverture for practically re-instating slavery himself by forcing people to stay on sugar plantations. OTOH, they at least got paid, and I'd honestly blame the colonialists for that too, given Haiti wasn't really set up to have an economy outside of sugar. People gotta eat. *fun fact: he sent a lot of Duchy of Warsaw conscripts who wanted to fight for Poland, not go enslave others, so they defected en masse to the haitian side. This led to poles being the only white people allowed to set foot on the island for the next century.
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Sep 16, 2021 14:30
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Demiurge4 posted:I feel like Vicky 3 is going to have multiple insanely good alt history or straight up fantasy total conversion mods. If the war game is at all detailed all I’m ever going to need is a decent steampunk mod.  I'm imagining a Sunless Skies total conversion mod. Railroads without the rails, or ground. Hours and souls as harvestable and refinable resources. Devils and talking rodents as minority populations. Kingdoms led by celestial entities. Oppressive workworlds. Anarchist uprisings against the concept of light itself (a tool of said celestial entities). So much weird tech. Immortal nightmare empress Victoria. Late game crisis when the French reach the heavens as well.
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Sep 16, 2021 14:30
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I hope there's an Eberron mod for Vicky 3, it'd be perfect! Heavily militarized nations have to demobilize as nobody wants to fight after the Mourning, people start demanding more services/representation now that the Last War is over, and technology is advancing very rapidly. ...What game is good to start modding on to prepare for Vicky 3? I don't own CK3, but I think I have the rest. EDIT: ThaumPenguin posted:
This looks baller as hell for Stellaris!
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Sep 16, 2021 14:31
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Gimme a Vicky 3 version of Apres Moi.
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Sep 16, 2021 14:32
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Edgar Allen Ho posted:*fun fact: he sent a lot of Duchy of Warsaw conscripts who wanted to fight for Poland, not go enslave others, so they defected en masse to the haitian side. This led to poles being the only white people allowed to set foot on the island for the next century. they were also spared from the genocide the haitians conducted because they were the "white negroes of europe" according to dessalines lol
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Sep 16, 2021 14:34
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hot cocoa on the couch posted:would that be a "napoleon never wasted his veterans in russia" alt-hist or a "napoleon turns away the prussians at waterloo and defeats tolly's army in front of the rhine" alt-hist? imo you gotta go back to 1810 or 1811 to diverge from our timeline to give any chance to napoleon winning. he had no chance against the sixth coalition and would have needed the brilliance of napoleon during the third coalition to rebuke the russians after waterloo (which he probably didn't have since wagram, despite displaying flashes of it during the six days in france) https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=946684259 but for Vicky 3 rather that HOI4? It's a wider alt-hist (the Seven Years war is indecisive, the USA ends up a constitutional monarchy, etc) but basically Russia surrenders during the grand invasion and capulates rather than the Grand Armee retreating in defeat.
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Sep 16, 2021 14:36
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hot cocoa on the couch posted:they were also spared from the genocide the haitians conducted because they were the "white negroes of europe" according to dessalines lol The Haitian Revolution is just heartbreaking to read about. Lots of people doing good things and getting killed for it, rampant disease and death, and at the end Haiti is still enslaved by France, but at a higher point on the logistical chain. quote:After the Haitians gained independence from French colonial rule in the Haitian Revolution of 1804, the French returned in 1825 and demanded that the newly independent country pay the French government and French slaveholders the modern equivalent of US$21 billion for claiming slaveowner's property and the land that they had turned into profitable sugar and coffee producing plantations. This independence debt was financed by French banks and the American Citibank, and finally paid off in 1947.
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Sep 16, 2021 14:43
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Gaius Marius posted:Nobody played the balanced world scenarios for Doomsday. And balance is for other games, having asymmetrical challenges is an appeal of Paradox over other strategy games. Paradox explicitly abandoned asymmetrical challenges and worldbuilding in favor of making countries as identical as possible, with the only functional difference being geography, or in Stellaris' case, surrounding stars. You can argue whether you want balance in Paradox games or not, but Paradox clearly believes balance is important while being unable to actually accomplish it.
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Sep 16, 2021 14:53
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HerpicleOmnicron5 posted:EU4’s good for most European powers and a few non-Europeans, but Vicky? I think there it’s mostly the economic mechanics and technologies rather than the actual point in time. I hope we get a good alternate setting to bring it all together for a better game. I find the revolution sof 1848 (not that they're modeled very weel in v2) and ww1 to be intensely fascinating. V2 is basically the only pdx game I play to the end since it's shorter, and the great war mechanic keeps things interesting. I usually do get one of the big powers falling to communists after a defeat. Lady Radia posted:Paradox explicitly abandoned asymmetrical challenges and worldbuilding in favor of making countries as identical as possible, with the only functional difference being geography, or in Stellaris' case, surrounding stars. You can argue whether you want balance in Paradox games or not, but Paradox clearly believes balance is important while being unable to actually accomplish it. Where did they explicitly abandon asymmetry, other than stellaris. Also what do you mean by asymmetry? You don't mean switzerland will be as strong as austria in v3 i hope. feller fucked around with this message at 14:59 on Sep 16, 2021 |
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Sep 16, 2021 14:57
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TwoQuestions posted:EDIT: While Stellaris does have the advantage of being in space, SS doesn't really feature real space (it's more "Lovecraft's Treasure Planet") , and Stellaris is too grand in scale. SS is also set in 1905 in an indefinite Victorian age (she has usurped the Throne of Hours and her grip will never falter), so Victoria 3's aesthetics wouldn't require as much changing, compared to the complete overhaul of every single visual you'd need for Stellaris. My biggest reason for suggesting it for Victoria 3 over Stellaris is Vic 3's central focus on granular "national gardening" over sheer conquest, which I think works a lot better with what SS depicts, like worker struggle, stratification, imperialism, colonialism, censorship, debtor's prisons, just generally the horrible consequences of Victorian mindsets when unshackled from their old limitations. Stellaris has a ton of elements that could make it work, like pop management, factions, intrigue, weird resources, dangerous tech etc, but most of them aren't granular or flavorful enough to properly depict this. Maybe a Stellaris 2 could pull it off, one that took the design lessons from its predecessor and Victoria 3 to heart and built the game from the ground up with all those systems in mind, instead of just sort of welding them on top and trying to integrate them afterwards.
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Sep 16, 2021 15:00
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Edgar Allen Ho posted:Napoléon was imo better than most of his reactionary peers, but he did kinda re-institute slavery and invade Haiti*. A victorious First Empire presumably isn't going to be nice to Haiti. You can criticize Toussaint L'Ouverture for practically re-instating slavery himself by forcing people to stay on sugar plantations. OTOH, they at least got paid, and I'd honestly blame the colonialists for that too, given Haiti wasn't really set up to have an economy outside of sugar. People gotta eat. See I would think the turning point for Napoleon would be granting Toussaint official governor of Haiti (which he almost did, had the letter drafted and everything) which would give him access to Toussaint and his veteran troops to open up new theatres of war in the new world and potentially turn the Caribbean into a French lake (which was on the table up until he lost Haiti)
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Sep 16, 2021 15:07
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yikes! posted:Where did they explicitly abandon asymmetry, other than stellaris. Also what do you mean by asymmetry? You don't mean switzerland will be as strong as austria in v3 i hope. Did you play EU3 or EU4 on release? Have you played CK3 recently? I think Paradox should have definitely gone full hog on asymmetry and unique challenges for each different civ (using that term intentionally, as Paradox games are so divorced from history as it IS like Civilization), but Paradox has disagreed. Maybe another sign of their awful trends these last few years. e: actually, FWIW, EU4 now is hardly asymmetric - country differences continue to boil down to "fill meter, hit Unique Country button, get manpower". No real substantial differences in gameplay.
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Sep 16, 2021 15:07
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Lady Radia posted:Did you play EU3 or EU4 on release? Have you played CK3 recently? Yes, and you're using asymmetry in a way I've never seen before if you think there was no difference between states in eu4 at release.
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Sep 16, 2021 15:10
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Lady Radia posted:Did you play EU3 or EU4 on release? Have you played CK3 recently? No Paradox game has ever been assymetric in the way you're describing except for specifically CK2 - and CK3 will probably eventually get to a point where it's similarly assymetric.
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Sep 16, 2021 15:12
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yikes! posted:Yes, and you're using asymmetry in a way I've never seen before if you think there was no difference between states in eu4 at release. Have you ever played strategy games made by other companies? Things like RTSes, or HoMM, or some of the mods for EU4 like Anbennar? Sword of the stars?!  Asymmetric is all about different gameplay experiences and using fun, completely different choices to compete. Not “my country is exactly the same except for a couple numbers”, like Paradox fans are conditioned to.
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Sep 16, 2021 15:20
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Sampatrick posted:No Paradox game has ever been assymetric in the way you're describing except for specifically CK2 - and CK3 will probably eventually get to a point where it's similarly assymetric. Stellaris spent some time moving in this direction. But yes, agreed Paradox games have long struggled to be more than window dressing.
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Sep 16, 2021 15:21
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Lady Radia posted:Have you ever played strategy games made by other companies? Things like RTSes, or HoMM, or some of the mods for EU4 like Anbennar? Sword of the stars?! Yes and Paradox games have never been like that except for the literal one exception that is CK2. They didn't move away from it - the assymetry in Paradox games is about start position, not mechanics.
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Sep 16, 2021 15:21
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Lady Radia posted:Have you ever played strategy games made by other companies? Things like RTSes, or HoMM, or some of the mods for EU4 like Anbennar? Sword of the stars?! OK
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Sep 16, 2021 15:26
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Dramicus posted:Both good mods, indeed, but they have a distressing lack of giant robots. Really want the fallout mod to add liberty prime now
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Sep 16, 2021 15:37
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hot cocoa on the couch posted:would that be a "napoleon never wasted his veterans in russia" alt-hist or a "napoleon turns away the prussians at waterloo and defeats tolly's army in front of the rhine" alt-hist? imo you gotta go back to 1810 or 1811 to diverge from our timeline to give any chance to napoleon winning. he had no chance against the sixth coalition and would have needed the brilliance of napoleon during the third coalition to rebuke the russians after waterloo (which he probably didn't have since wagram, despite displaying flashes of it during the six days in france) From what i recall, the Russians and Austrians were pretty drat tired of being led by the Brits in countless campaigns and were at the end of their patience. After restoring control in Italy (My boy Murat, by beautiful boy Murat  ), I wouldn't be surprised if Austria just sat after Genoa while Russia decided to gently caress off in case Napoleon won handily in Waterloo.This, of course, doesn't take in account that Prussia and the Brits would rather fight to the last peasant to take Napoleon out.
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Sep 16, 2021 16:01
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You could just have him accept that peace deal where he keeps the throne and everything up to the full Rhine border, instead of continuing on and losing properly.
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Sep 16, 2021 16:05
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if we're talking about a diverging timeline in 1815: i could see austria accepting napoleonic france if he'd have won the campaign in belgium, they were thoroughly battered and tired of being involved in (almost) every coalition, and metternich could maybe have convinced russia to stand down (that's a big maybe, alex was convinced europe would never be at peace with napoleon at large - and he may have been right) or at least delayed tolly long enough that napoleon could maneuver favourably. prussia would need to be forcibly coerced to accept napoleon and germany at large had been thoroughly galvanized against him, even though the commoners did enjoy republican reforms. i firmly believe britain would never accept napoleon ever after the sixth coalition i think probably napoleons best chances would be to reinforce the peninsula and to personally conquer spain in 1810/11, and use the economy to bring russia to the table to defeat britain financially rather than invading russia. this creates a stable europe where france would slowly release the larger nations to autonomy again and begin a "napoleonic age" in lieu of the victorian one Edgar Allen Ho posted:You could just have him accept that peace deal where he keeps the throne and everything up to the full Rhine border, instead of continuing on and losing properly. after austerlitz, i don't think napoleon would ever accept anything less than total victory ever again. metternich was practically begging him in late 1813 to accept what the other continental powers viewed as a very favourable peace for napoleon. napoleon still thought he could win after leipzig, which is hitler levels of delusion lol hot cocoa on the couch fucked around with this message at 16:24 on Sep 16, 2021 |
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Sep 16, 2021 16:22
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Sampatrick posted:Yes and Paradox games have never been like that except for the literal one exception that is CK2. They didn't move away from it - the assymetry in Paradox games is about start position, not mechanics. And in fact, it could hardly be otherwise. You cannot simultaneously have "every one of hundreds-to-thousands of entities is playable", "substantially different game mechanics for each of them" (or even for each subgroup of them unless those subgroups are sweepingly large), and "games released before the heat death of the universe". I like Anbennar too but let's not overstate how different its factions actually are by comparing it to Sword of the Stars or HoMM or an RTS. It's mostly the different bonuses they get affecting their access to/the usefulness of different mechanics, plus the nature of certain start positions making for different challenges - much like EU4 itself!
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Sep 16, 2021 16:34
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